It seems likely to me that the birds have suffered by these spikes and repurpose them as much for the message they send to avian predators as their structural merits. It is like humans wearing the head of a wolf or other things to communicate they are a threat to would be interlopers.
But for the magpies, there was an additional layer of intrigue; not only were the birds using the spikes to build nests, but it’s possible they were also employing the devices for their intended purpose—to ward off other birds. “It’s a very natural behavior,” Hiemstra says. “We think these spikes are for nest defense."
Researchers are doing all kinds of cognitive studies on how birds (and other animals) use tools. Has anyone looked into the potential impacts (good and bad) for wide scale introduction of proven tools for use by other animals?
Off the top of my head, if a tool is made of plastic for example, we’d be littering our environments with questionable trash.
But conceptually, what’s the downside to leave a huge pile of defensive materials like bird spikes in the forest to help promote nest health?
Stopping short of given them weapons of course. (Shout out to the other comment about training animals to dismantle barbed wire.)
> Has anyone looked into the potential impacts (good and bad) for wide scale introduction of proven tools for use by other animals?
That is interesting. What if we designed tools for use by corvids?
> conceptually, what’s the downside to leave a huge pile of defensive materials like bird spikes in the forest to help promote nest health?
We'd be supporting one species, the prey, over the other, the predator. Why? Do we mean to apply vegan principles to animals? What happens to the predators? How do animal rights apply? Conceptually, it's really a difficult question.
The "leaving ecosystems alone" ship sailed almost everywhere on Earth tens of thousands of years ago. Humans have always been a part of, and had impacts upon, the ecosystems we've lived in. Certainly moreso in recent centuries.
Not to say that further interventions will be helpful in "reestablishing balance".
Even the concept of "balance" or homeostasis has long been recognized to not really exist in any ecosystem.
I agree, but I would be curious about cases where nature could reclaim habitat faster if we give it some tools for the job. I can't really think of what those tools might be off hand though--apart from some kind of weapon/disease that better keeps humans away at marginal detriment to the user/host.
It is because most pigeons we see in cities are rock pigeon and were usually making their nest in cliff, crevases and rock formation[1]. Not in tree. Therefore, they never needed to make such artfully crafted nest since the rock was already providing enough shelter.
This is also why they are very adapted to live in cities, because our concrete jungles are actually closer (in their verticality, materials, and relative lack of trees) to mountainous terrain than to a jungle.
I've heard it said that the terrible nests are more to stop the eggs from rolling away. Apparently it was easier to evolve the ability to go get a stick than make square eggs.
Interesting but I have a hard time imagining how a nest made of anti-bird spikes could be comfortable. Do they actually find it to be nice? I guess corvids are super smart and wouldn't accidentally get tricked into making an uncomfortable nest due to man made materials...
> For the crows, the spikes seem purely structural, a material used to fashion a solid foundation. In both crow nests, the wires were incorporated into the base–interwoven with the points facing inward, below where a softer nest cup would sit. But for the magpies, there was an additional layer of intrigue; not only were the birds using the spikes to build nests, but it’s possible they were also employing the devices for their intended purpose—to ward off other birds.
I saw an osprey pull a three-foot fragment of steel wire out of a wire rope on a tramp steamer one time. Damndest thing you ever saw, he kept circling and grabbing at this cable with his talons and I thought he was attacking or something, but I got my camera up in time to see him fly off with this twist of wire as long as his wingspan, pulled up under him like a fish. They love human detritus as structural material in their nests, which can be six feet across and four deep.
The article says the birds make different nest configurations, with one incorporating a softer cup layer on top of the spiky layer made with the spikes and another configuration using the spikes as part of a dome on top of the nest.
My take is its less so about being physically comfortable, but there is a different type of comfort by the protection of the nest from predators. It's like being uncomfortable to have peace of bird mind, in other words.
It would be interesting to determine whether the serum cortisol differs between those living in spoke nests versus those without.
My assumption is that it is indeed elevated, as the “residents” are constantly mindful of their movements (and therefore more stressed) to avoid being poked.
Well we've used pigeons fr missile guidance before [0], and for
messaging [1], so birds have a firm place in the military including
having their own special units [2]
More generally, the history of warfare is all about taking the enemy's
resources and using them as weapons against the foe. This will be a
defining feature of future cyberwar and AI - everything we build to
"protect ourselves" will at some point be repurposed to advantage an
enemy.
Sadly Wikipedia doesn't describe a specific mechanism that helps pigeons to navigate. I wonder do pigeons simply fly high enough that they can see hundred miles around?
Dolphin's were trained to bypass enemy underwater defenses to plant explosives on enemy ships while they were in there home port. They were also used to find mines and other underwater devices to be disarmed.
Most birds just aren't big enough to do real damage to barbed wire or razor wire defenses. Now if you could somehow train the birds to harass a herd of cattle into running down the fence, that might work. Sort of like the Hitchcock movie The Birds.
So the author makes a thesis statement then contradicts in the body. So great. Love birds, but hate emotional manipulation.
If you feel bad, your online time is better spent on working to buy land outside of cities and letting it go wild. Cities are for primarily for people to live in. And many bird species have adapted to live with people already. So the claim is dubious. Infact Birds are very adaptable, so adaptable people have to put spikes up...to which the birds have adapted to. Actual parqueets live in England for example thanks to people feeding them. But don't feed the rats...
"Why a four-year-old child could understand this report. Run out and find me a four-year-old child. I can't make head or tail out of it."
--Groucho Marx as Rufus T. Firefly, "Duck Soup"
When my daughter was 4 or 5 and down in bed with 39 C fever, I was having trouble opening her bottle of ibuprofen syrup. Child proof cap of course, so too hard for a 29 year old.
So I heard her - barely speaking because of the fever - "daddy let me help you". I brought the bottle to her bed and of course she opened it the first try.
It seems likely to me that the birds have suffered by these spikes and repurpose them as much for the message they send to avian predators as their structural merits. It is like humans wearing the head of a wolf or other things to communicate they are a threat to would be interlopers.
In the OP:
But for the magpies, there was an additional layer of intrigue; not only were the birds using the spikes to build nests, but it’s possible they were also employing the devices for their intended purpose—to ward off other birds. “It’s a very natural behavior,” Hiemstra says. “We think these spikes are for nest defense."
That’s exactly what they are, it says as much on the box.
Crows going for a Mad Max aesthetic for defense and deterrence seems both incredible and simultaneously unsurprisingly.
Researchers are doing all kinds of cognitive studies on how birds (and other animals) use tools. Has anyone looked into the potential impacts (good and bad) for wide scale introduction of proven tools for use by other animals?
Off the top of my head, if a tool is made of plastic for example, we’d be littering our environments with questionable trash.
But conceptually, what’s the downside to leave a huge pile of defensive materials like bird spikes in the forest to help promote nest health?
Stopping short of given them weapons of course. (Shout out to the other comment about training animals to dismantle barbed wire.)
> Has anyone looked into the potential impacts (good and bad) for wide scale introduction of proven tools for use by other animals?
That is interesting. What if we designed tools for use by corvids?
> conceptually, what’s the downside to leave a huge pile of defensive materials like bird spikes in the forest to help promote nest health?
We'd be supporting one species, the prey, over the other, the predator. Why? Do we mean to apply vegan principles to animals? What happens to the predators? How do animal rights apply? Conceptually, it's really a difficult question.
Unless there's an imbalance caused by human activity, I'd say we are better off leaving the birds and their ecosystems alone.
The "leaving ecosystems alone" ship sailed almost everywhere on Earth tens of thousands of years ago. Humans have always been a part of, and had impacts upon, the ecosystems we've lived in. Certainly moreso in recent centuries.
Not to say that further interventions will be helpful in "reestablishing balance".
Even the concept of "balance" or homeostasis has long been recognized to not really exist in any ecosystem.
I agree, but I would be curious about cases where nature could reclaim habitat faster if we give it some tools for the job. I can't really think of what those tools might be off hand though--apart from some kind of weapon/disease that better keeps humans away at marginal detriment to the user/host.
Don’t we already do this with artificial reefs?
And then there are the doves, birds notorious for making the most lackluster of nests. They will lay eggs right on top of the spikes.
When you see the nests, it is amazing that doves / pigeons exist at all. They must survive out of spite and numbers.
Check out /r/stupiddovenests on reddit for some good examples.
It is because most pigeons we see in cities are rock pigeon and were usually making their nest in cliff, crevases and rock formation[1]. Not in tree. Therefore, they never needed to make such artfully crafted nest since the rock was already providing enough shelter. This is also why they are very adapted to live in cities, because our concrete jungles are actually closer (in their verticality, materials, and relative lack of trees) to mountainous terrain than to a jungle.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_dove#Distribution_and_hab...
I've heard it said that the terrible nests are more to stop the eggs from rolling away. Apparently it was easier to evolve the ability to go get a stick than make square eggs.
Ah, interesting, that makes sense. I will still laugh at their "nests", though. :-)
However, some pigeons are a little extra:
https://www.boredpanda.com/pigeon-poppies-nest-remembrance-d...
Pretty sure pigeons exist entirely thanks to NYC. :)
Or London
I'm impressed by this crow's beak-work: all the spikes are oriented inward and covered in leaves, making that nest very strong and not spiky at all.
reminds me of the BE UNGOVERNABLE dog https://www.reddit.com/r/blursedimages/comments/u8o03f/blurs...
Are there other good examples of animals subverting restrictions?
Checkout the image at the top of this page! (I don't know if the blog itself is any good. I'm just posting it for the image!)
https://sayyesmore.com/blog/bethebird
haha great :-D
Interesting but I have a hard time imagining how a nest made of anti-bird spikes could be comfortable. Do they actually find it to be nice? I guess corvids are super smart and wouldn't accidentally get tricked into making an uncomfortable nest due to man made materials...
TFA addresses this directly:
> For the crows, the spikes seem purely structural, a material used to fashion a solid foundation. In both crow nests, the wires were incorporated into the base–interwoven with the points facing inward, below where a softer nest cup would sit. But for the magpies, there was an additional layer of intrigue; not only were the birds using the spikes to build nests, but it’s possible they were also employing the devices for their intended purpose—to ward off other birds.
I saw an osprey pull a three-foot fragment of steel wire out of a wire rope on a tramp steamer one time. Damndest thing you ever saw, he kept circling and grabbing at this cable with his talons and I thought he was attacking or something, but I got my camera up in time to see him fly off with this twist of wire as long as his wingspan, pulled up under him like a fish. They love human detritus as structural material in their nests, which can be six feet across and four deep.
The article says the birds make different nest configurations, with one incorporating a softer cup layer on top of the spiky layer made with the spikes and another configuration using the spikes as part of a dome on top of the nest.
Spikes are only uncomfortable if you sit on the spiky end.
My take is its less so about being physically comfortable, but there is a different type of comfort by the protection of the nest from predators. It's like being uncomfortable to have peace of bird mind, in other words.
It would be interesting to determine whether the serum cortisol differs between those living in spoke nests versus those without.
My assumption is that it is indeed elevated, as the “residents” are constantly mindful of their movements (and therefore more stressed) to avoid being poked.
Relative to their traditional construction material, twigs, it’s probably no worse.
It's more about sending a message than the comfort. Up the tweet!
Could birds be trained to tear down military barbed wire & razor wire defenses?
(Or are the birds here AWOL from their training camp?)
While corvids can use tools, I think they'd probably struggle with a pair of wire cutters
Team work, each one holds one end. :)
To the laboratory!
obviously lasers, corvidae with lasers
Well we've used pigeons fr missile guidance before [0], and for messaging [1], so birds have a firm place in the military including having their own special units [2]
More generally, the history of warfare is all about taking the enemy's resources and using them as weapons against the foe. This will be a defining feature of future cyberwar and AI - everything we build to "protect ourselves" will at some point be repurposed to advantage an enemy.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Pigeon
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_pigeon
[2] https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/article/warfares-unsung-pi...
Geese have also been employed for security including by military forces.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guard_goose
Sadly Wikipedia doesn't describe a specific mechanism that helps pigeons to navigate. I wonder do pigeons simply fly high enough that they can see hundred miles around?
They use magnetism AFAIK
(And) smell apparently (sample size of one..)
https://youtu.be/t4cw-Av2Pk4?feature=shared (Around 28min mark)
Dolphin's were trained to bypass enemy underwater defenses to plant explosives on enemy ships while they were in there home port. They were also used to find mines and other underwater devices to be disarmed.
Most birds just aren't big enough to do real damage to barbed wire or razor wire defenses. Now if you could somehow train the birds to harass a herd of cattle into running down the fence, that might work. Sort of like the Hitchcock movie The Birds.
So the corvids have developed punk?
So the author makes a thesis statement then contradicts in the body. So great. Love birds, but hate emotional manipulation. If you feel bad, your online time is better spent on working to buy land outside of cities and letting it go wild. Cities are for primarily for people to live in. And many bird species have adapted to live with people already. So the claim is dubious. Infact Birds are very adaptable, so adaptable people have to put spikes up...to which the birds have adapted to. Actual parqueets live in England for example thanks to people feeding them. But don't feed the rats...
Fortunately, I only use these to protect the wasps from the sparrows, and the robins from themselves.
Excellent, stick it to the man!
Life, uh, finds a way.
"...the street finds its own uses for things"
In other news, only small children can easily open the anti child caps on medicine bottles...
And in disturbingly relevant news from 1933...
"Why a four-year-old child could understand this report. Run out and find me a four-year-old child. I can't make head or tail out of it." --Groucho Marx as Rufus T. Firefly, "Duck Soup"
I wasn't quoting entertainment though.
When my daughter was 4 or 5 and down in bed with 39 C fever, I was having trouble opening her bottle of ibuprofen syrup. Child proof cap of course, so too hard for a 29 year old.
So I heard her - barely speaking because of the fever - "daddy let me help you". I brought the bottle to her bed and of course she opened it the first try.
It is amazing how quotable that movie is even today.
(2023)
Seemed familiar…