At this point, why would you travel to the US? People with valid visas and green cards are being denied entry, strip searched, detained indefinitely, and denied prescription medicine. The government is ignoring judicial orders regarding immigration and deportation.
What percentage of travelers are running into problems? How does that compare to other countries? How does it compare to your probability of being detained where you are anyways?
Not to belittle the anecdotal issues but without any baseline or comparison this is meaningless scare mongering. People are denied entry, detained and strip searches in every border all over the world, every day, all the time. If you think staying home is fine you'll find people are arrested at their home, even killed, by law enforcement at their home in many countries all the time.
Your first article immediately says that the government is investigating and other articles point out the man was found carrying cocaine.
Your second article points out that someone was arrested on suspicion of a crime and will go on to face a judicial process to establish innocence or guilt.
If you think those two cases are comparable to the two I provided, I'm not sure we can have a productive discussion on this matter, especially considered you entirely ignored the second point of my post.
You're ignoring my point which is that similar things happen all over the world all the time and without any comparative data they are just anecdotes.
Is the Trump administration applying a different policy? Absolutely. Does that make the US materially less safe for most of us? Open question. Almost certainly not.
So yes, we're not going to have a productive discussion when I am coming at things from a fact based view point and you are presenting anecdotes as being relevant.
Maybe yes maybe no. We had some of this in the previous Trump presidency and despite the fear mongering we got over it. The US has plenty of checks and balances it seems (I'm not American so easy for me to say ;) ). We also had democratic governments that didn't make any material changes to what are questionable immigration practices or in some cases made things worse.
these incidents - among an escalating number of other, similar incidents - are a grave betrayal of the US’ purported values, especially when it claims to be morally better than "other countries" who routinely violate the rights of people who aren't breaking any laws (in one case, literal torture techniques were used on a permanent resident of the US).
furthermore, the point is to call these things out as soon as they happen in order to prevent a situation where these occurrences become statistically significant enough for you to pay attention. the idea is to prevent wide-scale violations, not to sit back and allow them to continue until it reaches a point of normalization.
I disagree. What we have here is that random incidents that happen all the time are seized on to make a political point.
From that linked article: " The US CBP denied the allegations, with assistant commissioner of public affairs Hilton Beckham telling Newsweek: “These claims are blatantly false with respect to CBP.” "
There is no "escalating number" of similar incidents. If there are then show me the numbers. It's not news that border guards occasionally get power trips and take it out on whoever happens to be there. I can find you dozens of examples over the year[s] (and if I've heard of dozens there's many more). This is out of 10's of millions or more entries. When you're arrested you also might be strip searched, forced to shower, and other inconveniences. Is it great? No. Is it new? Not really.
What we need to call out isn't the US not living up perfectly to its purported values. That's not exactly news. Civil forfeiture anyone? What we need to call out is the crazy political climate and people becoming hysterical over anecdotes. If we do see a clear pattern that things are shifting in a major way- then we'll talk. Having a fact based, not an emotion based, political discourse is the important thing.
and i disagree with you. once again, these are facts and numbers - it's not enough to wait until the situation becomes so dire that we no longer have the ability to legally, meaningfully respond and reverse our circumstances. it's also disingenuous (at best) to downplay these violations of rights ("this happens all the time", "they gave him a shower", etc) - this is the normalization of abuse of power. whenever these violations/abuses have happened they've been wrong, and we should always call them out as wrong and act to prevent them from happening again.
furthermore, if you only care about statistics then abuses of vulnerable populations must be acceptable unless they hit some threshold of statistical significance. you can excuse horrific acts based on the idea that a minority is only a small percentage of the total population or that their abuse is only a small percentage of total abuse, as you're doing here. that's the point of creating a social system which protects everyone - that people who comprise a minority are not singled out and abused. murderers and serial killers also target relatively small percentages of the population, but we don't allow them to roam freely.
when the government no longer cares about its own values, laws, and separation of powers, we no longer have a government of the people. this is a an existential issue, not a "wait and see" situation.
I agree with you that we should not normalize abuse. It's fine and required that we call these things out. I'm with you on that one.
Where I'm not with you is on the mass hysteria that the world is ending and the grasping on what are anecdotes to fuel a political struggle. The American left has collectively lost their minds it seems and they want to turn their prediction that this is the end of democracy in the US into a prophecy that fulfills itself.
The latest on the Brown professor is that the judge accepted that the deportation happened before his order could reach the border agents. The CBP also responded they would not violate a judge's order. So all seems at it should be. If judge's orders are violated there are mechanisms to deal with that such as holding those people in contempt and sending them to jail. It's true that there could be a constitutional crisis if e.g. the president pardons those people but it seems we're not there yet.
There is a fine line here between order and anarchy. Let's stay on the order side. A few cases don't prove anything. We are seeing a policy shift which is what this administration said it would shift if it got into office. For the most part this policy is under their control and people knowingly voted for that. Democracy means accepting that even if it differs from what you think. We are seeing ever increasing polarization which on its own is going to lead to the destruction of democracy. This should be more worrying.
I cannot blame them. It is really too bad. I remember the days were to travel between the US and Canada only required some kind of ID. There were many times I was just waved through, no stopping. Most of the time I was asked for my name and then let through.
After 2001 you needed a special ID and now it is a PITA. I wonder how long before an official VISA is needed.
So much for the longest unprotected border in the world. That title probably goes to Germany and France, which is quote amazing considering their history.
One should note that the restrictions survived different US and Canadian administrations (there is a reciprocal requirement on Americans entering Canada) so it's not really a partisan issue it would appear.
The border is still pretty much unprotected.
My position is that Canada and the US should have an open border and an EU-like economic zone but I think the majority of Canadians and Americans don't want that or clearly it's not an important enough issue for them. Overall it's still a reasonably easy border to cross for both compared to most world borders and for many professions TN status also lets people live and work across the border.
As a Canadian emotions are running pretty hot these days. I think we should try and keep that under control. Don't get angry over what is essentially a business arrangement. People are still the same people under different administrations for good and bad. If you're feeling angry try and remember someone is trying to get you to be angry.
To be fair, the border between France and Germany is only about 400 km and about half of it is protected by a fairly wide river. Europe is generally quite small. There might be some much longer unprotected borders in Africa or South America.
Given that Trump has threatened Canada, why would any Canadian want to come to the US? Even if the threats were just some jacked-up negotiating scheme, their nature was serious enough to warrant some form of protest and not traveling here and spending money is something that can be done without risk.
Canada should take up the issue with Trump, not with Americans. I didn’t vote for Trump. I know only a handful of people that did. I highly doubt most of the people attending GDC did. No need to be a fair weather friend, in four years Trump will be gone and normalcy will be restored.
I've actually found most of the commentary on HN to be on the "holy shit what the hell is he doing, this is crazy and awful" side, as opposed to supportive of it. Which gives me hope.
There seem to be down votes in the other direction, at times, but 1) they seem to get balanced back after a while and 2) the down votes don't often come with any useful commentary, often with none at all - which, for me, I also find comforting.
I expected my comment to get downvoted due to the anger (rightfully so) from Canadians. People don’t seem to understand that most Americans didn’t vote for Trump and that those that did probably didn’t want him to attack Canada, of all countries.
You've softened it considerably with the added explanation.
I think, however, most Canadians (and the rest of the world) know it's a minority opinion in the US, but that doesn't change the fact that 1) there were enough people in the US that voted him in 2) there weren't enough people in the US that voted opposing him and, most importantly, 3) it's the ensuing behaviour of "the system" that's having this chilling effect on relations - it's not individually personal.
Having said that, it's probably important for as many of the US voting public as possible to reiterate that it's not "individually personal" as often as possible to keep eroding any building notions that it could be.
Yeah I guess I’ll just have to deal with it. This site already was pretty anti-US, now it’s just ramped up. Maybe it’s time to stop reading the comments. Like there’s nothing I can do about Trump, I only have one vote in California.
If things keep going everyone like they are you, and me, are going to have to do something, or we may just be sitting by as the democracy is irreversibly damaged.
Most people in the US consider Canada a friend not an enemy or the 51st state. It’s stupid that Trump and his cronies are able to kill so quickly what was a great friendship.
I think what's important to keep in mind is how, yes, the current majority of Americans are fine with Canada and don't agree with the measures Trump has imposed. The problem is when both countries citizens start bling eachother rather than blaming the opposing administration.
This is unacceptable "both sides"-ism, the US government has made direct threats to the Canadian government and people. Canadians are rightfully taking issue with it.
Part of the reason Canadians are boycotting American goods and services is to force us citizens to voice issue with their government.
At this point the issue remains with the American people to address their government.
What adminstration in the Canadian government is there for Americans to oppose?? Nobody even knows the source of the tarrif issue.
I think the community still does its best to downvote low-effort comments like that (independent of the political position). But as a non-American it sure is annoying to see more and more of them.
Trump is threatening their country, and since Canadians cannot vote in the US, there's only one effective way they can drain Trump's power, which is economic warfare. Economic downturn is well correlated with incumbents losing an election.
You are asking Canadians to put some random group of Americans' interest in front of their own self-interest. I think the ship has sailed.
I like imagining this clever retort oozing from the lips of someone who has had their birthday invitation refused after punching their 8 year old school mate in the stomach.
In this case, I believe Canadians are taking issue with the treatment they may get at the border. They don't want to be sent to detention because of a simple misunderstanding with an over zealous border security guard who is scared of losing their job if they accidentally let the left one in.
My wife was threatened with not being allowed into the country due to a DUI (in the US) from five years ago. We had to pay a $250 fee to spend three days in Victoria.
Do you feel an injustice has been perpetrated against you? The Canadian attitude towards admission vis a vis DUI convictions predates the first Trump administration by a lot.
OTOH Victoria schoolchildren used to do cross border field trips. They ended the practice during the Trump Muslim ban to avoid trauma to kids.
It's that the rhetoric coming from Trump which, through significant threats to the on-going employment of anyone deemed to be not enthusiastically complying with these daily-updated mandates, increases the likelihood of un-justified "bad thing" happening upon attempting to cross the border to the US.
Basically, the current regime makes it unpredictable, which increases risk. Increased risk = decreased likelihood of related action.
I'm not sure how far off topic we've gone, but "Canadian Devs backing out of attending GDC" would also have a protest aspect to it due to DJT's belligerence towards Canada.
> ...in four years Trump will be gone and normalcy will be restored
Tell me you haven't been paying attention to what's going on in Trumpistan without telling me you haven't been paying attention to what's going on in Trumpistan.
At this point, why would you travel to the US? People with valid visas and green cards are being denied entry, strip searched, detained indefinitely, and denied prescription medicine. The government is ignoring judicial orders regarding immigration and deportation.
1. https://www.luxtimes.lu/luxembourg/us-resident-violently-int...
2. https://www.newsweek.com/rubio-touts-migrants-sent-el-salvad...
What percentage of travelers are running into problems? How does that compare to other countries? How does it compare to your probability of being detained where you are anyways?
Not to belittle the anecdotal issues but without any baseline or comparison this is meaningless scare mongering. People are denied entry, detained and strip searches in every border all over the world, every day, all the time. If you think staying home is fine you'll find people are arrested at their home, even killed, by law enforcement at their home in many countries all the time.
1. https://news.sky.com/story/man-dies-after-being-arrested-by-...
2. https://apnews.com/article/germany-arrest-american-spying-ch...
Your first article immediately says that the government is investigating and other articles point out the man was found carrying cocaine.
Your second article points out that someone was arrested on suspicion of a crime and will go on to face a judicial process to establish innocence or guilt.
If you think those two cases are comparable to the two I provided, I'm not sure we can have a productive discussion on this matter, especially considered you entirely ignored the second point of my post.
Which of your points have I ignored exactly?
You're ignoring my point which is that similar things happen all over the world all the time and without any comparative data they are just anecdotes.
Is the Trump administration applying a different policy? Absolutely. Does that make the US materially less safe for most of us? Open question. Almost certainly not.
So yes, we're not going to have a productive discussion when I am coming at things from a fact based view point and you are presenting anecdotes as being relevant.
what they're doing at the border now, they'll do to citizens within the country later. so, yes, this makes the US materially less safe.
Maybe yes maybe no. We had some of this in the previous Trump presidency and despite the fear mongering we got over it. The US has plenty of checks and balances it seems (I'm not American so easy for me to say ;) ). We also had democratic governments that didn't make any material changes to what are questionable immigration practices or in some cases made things worse.
these incidents - among an escalating number of other, similar incidents - are a grave betrayal of the US’ purported values, especially when it claims to be morally better than "other countries" who routinely violate the rights of people who aren't breaking any laws (in one case, literal torture techniques were used on a permanent resident of the US).
furthermore, the point is to call these things out as soon as they happen in order to prevent a situation where these occurrences become statistically significant enough for you to pay attention. the idea is to prevent wide-scale violations, not to sit back and allow them to continue until it reaches a point of normalization.
I disagree. What we have here is that random incidents that happen all the time are seized on to make a political point.
From that linked article: " The US CBP denied the allegations, with assistant commissioner of public affairs Hilton Beckham telling Newsweek: “These claims are blatantly false with respect to CBP.” "
There is no "escalating number" of similar incidents. If there are then show me the numbers. It's not news that border guards occasionally get power trips and take it out on whoever happens to be there. I can find you dozens of examples over the year[s] (and if I've heard of dozens there's many more). This is out of 10's of millions or more entries. When you're arrested you also might be strip searched, forced to shower, and other inconveniences. Is it great? No. Is it new? Not really.
What we need to call out isn't the US not living up perfectly to its purported values. That's not exactly news. Civil forfeiture anyone? What we need to call out is the crazy political climate and people becoming hysterical over anecdotes. If we do see a clear pattern that things are shifting in a major way- then we'll talk. Having a fact based, not an emotion based, political discourse is the important thing.
and i disagree with you. once again, these are facts and numbers - it's not enough to wait until the situation becomes so dire that we no longer have the ability to legally, meaningfully respond and reverse our circumstances. it's also disingenuous (at best) to downplay these violations of rights ("this happens all the time", "they gave him a shower", etc) - this is the normalization of abuse of power. whenever these violations/abuses have happened they've been wrong, and we should always call them out as wrong and act to prevent them from happening again.
furthermore, if you only care about statistics then abuses of vulnerable populations must be acceptable unless they hit some threshold of statistical significance. you can excuse horrific acts based on the idea that a minority is only a small percentage of the total population or that their abuse is only a small percentage of total abuse, as you're doing here. that's the point of creating a social system which protects everyone - that people who comprise a minority are not singled out and abused. murderers and serial killers also target relatively small percentages of the population, but we don't allow them to roam freely.
here is the border czar saying he doesn't care about court orders: https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/live-updates/donald-trump-se...
here is a Brown professor who was deported despite a court order: https://www.reuters.com/world/us/doctor-brown-university-dep...
when the government no longer cares about its own values, laws, and separation of powers, we no longer have a government of the people. this is a an existential issue, not a "wait and see" situation.
I agree with you that we should not normalize abuse. It's fine and required that we call these things out. I'm with you on that one.
Where I'm not with you is on the mass hysteria that the world is ending and the grasping on what are anecdotes to fuel a political struggle. The American left has collectively lost their minds it seems and they want to turn their prediction that this is the end of democracy in the US into a prophecy that fulfills itself.
The latest on the Brown professor is that the judge accepted that the deportation happened before his order could reach the border agents. The CBP also responded they would not violate a judge's order. So all seems at it should be. If judge's orders are violated there are mechanisms to deal with that such as holding those people in contempt and sending them to jail. It's true that there could be a constitutional crisis if e.g. the president pardons those people but it seems we're not there yet.
There is a fine line here between order and anarchy. Let's stay on the order side. A few cases don't prove anything. We are seeing a policy shift which is what this administration said it would shift if it got into office. For the most part this policy is under their control and people knowingly voted for that. Democracy means accepting that even if it differs from what you think. We are seeing ever increasing polarization which on its own is going to lead to the destruction of democracy. This should be more worrying.
I cannot blame them. It is really too bad. I remember the days were to travel between the US and Canada only required some kind of ID. There were many times I was just waved through, no stopping. Most of the time I was asked for my name and then let through.
After 2001 you needed a special ID and now it is a PITA. I wonder how long before an official VISA is needed.
So much for the longest unprotected border in the world. That title probably goes to Germany and France, which is quote amazing considering their history.
Something must have happened in 2001 I guess.
IIRC the additional id requirement was introduced in 2007 (air) and 2009 (land).
1. https://www.canada.ca/en/news/archive/2006/11/new-american-l...
2. https://www.canada.ca/en/news/archive/2009/06/are-you-canadi...
One should note that the restrictions survived different US and Canadian administrations (there is a reciprocal requirement on Americans entering Canada) so it's not really a partisan issue it would appear.
The border is still pretty much unprotected.
My position is that Canada and the US should have an open border and an EU-like economic zone but I think the majority of Canadians and Americans don't want that or clearly it's not an important enough issue for them. Overall it's still a reasonably easy border to cross for both compared to most world borders and for many professions TN status also lets people live and work across the border.
As a Canadian emotions are running pretty hot these days. I think we should try and keep that under control. Don't get angry over what is essentially a business arrangement. People are still the same people under different administrations for good and bad. If you're feeling angry try and remember someone is trying to get you to be angry.
To be fair, the border between France and Germany is only about 400 km and about half of it is protected by a fairly wide river. Europe is generally quite small. There might be some much longer unprotected borders in Africa or South America.
Given that Trump has threatened Canada, why would any Canadian want to come to the US? Even if the threats were just some jacked-up negotiating scheme, their nature was serious enough to warrant some form of protest and not traveling here and spending money is something that can be done without risk.
https://archive.is/WfHFC
Canada should take up the issue with Trump, not with Americans. I didn’t vote for Trump. I know only a handful of people that did. I highly doubt most of the people attending GDC did. No need to be a fair weather friend, in four years Trump will be gone and normalcy will be restored.
America aggressively trying to question Canadian sovereignty makes Canada the fareweather friend..... Got it.
With friend like these who needs enemies.
The American ignorance on this site is really starting to drive me away.
I've actually found most of the commentary on HN to be on the "holy shit what the hell is he doing, this is crazy and awful" side, as opposed to supportive of it. Which gives me hope.
There seem to be down votes in the other direction, at times, but 1) they seem to get balanced back after a while and 2) the down votes don't often come with any useful commentary, often with none at all - which, for me, I also find comforting.
I expected my comment to get downvoted due to the anger (rightfully so) from Canadians. People don’t seem to understand that most Americans didn’t vote for Trump and that those that did probably didn’t want him to attack Canada, of all countries.
Your original comment just sounded MAGA!
You've softened it considerably with the added explanation.
I think, however, most Canadians (and the rest of the world) know it's a minority opinion in the US, but that doesn't change the fact that 1) there were enough people in the US that voted him in 2) there weren't enough people in the US that voted opposing him and, most importantly, 3) it's the ensuing behaviour of "the system" that's having this chilling effect on relations - it's not individually personal.
Having said that, it's probably important for as many of the US voting public as possible to reiterate that it's not "individually personal" as often as possible to keep eroding any building notions that it could be.
Yeah I guess I’ll just have to deal with it. This site already was pretty anti-US, now it’s just ramped up. Maybe it’s time to stop reading the comments. Like there’s nothing I can do about Trump, I only have one vote in California.
> This site already was pretty anti-US
No.
Profound.
If things keep going everyone like they are you, and me, are going to have to do something, or we may just be sitting by as the democracy is irreversibly damaged.
Most people in the US consider Canada a friend not an enemy or the 51st state. It’s stupid that Trump and his cronies are able to kill so quickly what was a great friendship.
I think what's important to keep in mind is how, yes, the current majority of Americans are fine with Canada and don't agree with the measures Trump has imposed. The problem is when both countries citizens start bling eachother rather than blaming the opposing administration.
This is unacceptable "both sides"-ism, the US government has made direct threats to the Canadian government and people. Canadians are rightfully taking issue with it.
Part of the reason Canadians are boycotting American goods and services is to force us citizens to voice issue with their government.
At this point the issue remains with the American people to address their government.
What adminstration in the Canadian government is there for Americans to oppose?? Nobody even knows the source of the tarrif issue.
I think the community still does its best to downvote low-effort comments like that (independent of the political position). But as a non-American it sure is annoying to see more and more of them.
I think non-fairweather friends are about them staying with you when you're in trouble. This is you CAUSING them trouble on purpose.
The belief that has rapidly spread among the right is that Canada is somehow to blame.
I didn’t vote for Trump.
These Canadians might be fine with you. They aren't fine with the US. Don't take it personally I guess?
A citizen's obligations to the world does not begin and end with “votes for the right person”.
What else can I do at the national level?
Trump is threatening their country, and since Canadians cannot vote in the US, there's only one effective way they can drain Trump's power, which is economic warfare. Economic downturn is well correlated with incumbents losing an election.
You are asking Canadians to put some random group of Americans' interest in front of their own self-interest. I think the ship has sailed.
I like imagining this clever retort oozing from the lips of someone who has had their birthday invitation refused after punching their 8 year old school mate in the stomach.
In this case, I believe Canadians are taking issue with the treatment they may get at the border. They don't want to be sent to detention because of a simple misunderstanding with an over zealous border security guard who is scared of losing their job if they accidentally let the left one in.
My wife was threatened with not being allowed into the country due to a DUI (in the US) from five years ago. We had to pay a $250 fee to spend three days in Victoria.
Do you feel an injustice has been perpetrated against you? The Canadian attitude towards admission vis a vis DUI convictions predates the first Trump administration by a lot.
OTOH Victoria schoolchildren used to do cross border field trips. They ended the practice during the Trump Muslim ban to avoid trauma to kids.
And this predated the Trump administration. Just seems hypocritical that other countries are allowed to police their border crossing but the US isn’t.
I doubt anyone here is saying that.
It's that the rhetoric coming from Trump which, through significant threats to the on-going employment of anyone deemed to be not enthusiastically complying with these daily-updated mandates, increases the likelihood of un-justified "bad thing" happening upon attempting to cross the border to the US.
Basically, the current regime makes it unpredictable, which increases risk. Increased risk = decreased likelihood of related action.
I'm not sure how far off topic we've gone, but "Canadian Devs backing out of attending GDC" would also have a protest aspect to it due to DJT's belligerence towards Canada.
The US is being a "fair-weather friend" in this case.
The "weather" in fair-weather friend refers to externalities, not to the behavior of your friend.
It’s called boundaries.
> ...in four years Trump will be gone and normalcy will be restored
Tell me you haven't been paying attention to what's going on in Trumpistan without telling me you haven't been paying attention to what's going on in Trumpistan.
Unbelievable.