4G modems tend to need a lot of oomph from the power supply. I'm not sure how much this port offers but standard USB 5V x 0.5A (2.5W) is not going to cut it. TX power alone can go up to 2W and that doesn't include processing, losses etc.
Although that seems to be the most logical answer, on the PinePhone plugging the most basic wired keyboard (that does not even have a backlight) reduces the luminosity of the screen to the minimum. Small device tend to be very fiddly with power requirements even for simple tasks (e.g. the older raspberry pi models).
Honest question. I've been looking both at iPads and Thinkpads for a device that I can carry around, sit in a cafe with, do some typing, watch videos, play games, etc. Both of these are powerful and capable on their own, but also have unique strengths: an iPad is truly lightweight and has great battery, a Thinkpad can be docked and used as a regular workstation, etc.
Assuming I want the best value for my money, why would I choose a PINETAB over either of those?
I'm pleased to say that the Chimera folk persisted, got access to a $2500 64 core 128 GB RAM RISC-V workstation, the Milk-V Pioneer, and successfully built their distro from scratch in a reasonable time, and have reinstated RISC-V at the same level as LoongArch.
Most of the Pine64 range is designed for developers/tinkerers rather than end-users. This is great for people who want to play around with RISC-V hardware, but not so much for general users who'd be better off with a typical ARM powered tablet.
Your link to Chimera Linux actually illustrates the point of this kind of product - a pinetab is a cheap way to get your hands on easily usable hardware and port your favourite distro or software to it.
I'd also add that RISC-V performance isn't on par with ARM chips yet. The reason that manufacturers would want to use them has more to do with economics - no need to pay ARM for using their processors.
That's why I wonder, who is this device being sold to?
I do understand why RISC-V appeals to enthusiasts - I've been eyeing a couple RISC-V SBCs to potentially add to my homelab - I just don't understand the form factor. I sure as hell wouldn't carry two tablet/laptop-sized devices with me. Doing systems work in-system is a recipe for bricking the device until you can carry it back home. Doing integration work is much more productive if you can play with a dozen different CSI or DSI peripherals, rather than being stuck with one of each. I linked Chimera specifically to point out they've been building/porting apps thru an emulator, since it was more performant and readily available.
We've already ruled out using it for consuming media, and all but the most basic work. So what kind of hacker/enthusiast stuff can I actually do with this device specifically? It just looks like the worst of all worlds to me?
The Chimera folks seem to be confused and/or out of date.
The optimum way [1] to build thousands of RISC-V packages has been on real hardware, not in emulation, ever since the VisionFive 2 came out just over two years ago, at approximately 1/7th the price of the HiFive Unmatched they mention (which came out almost 4 years ago in May 2021).
Emulation is convenient if you already have a honking x86, and it's not already busy doing other things. e.g. typically your own desktop computer. But that doesn't scale.
It takes three to four $100 VisionFive 2s to get the same overall build performance as a $1500 i9-13900 or 14900 or Ryzen 9 7950x running RISC-V code in docker/qemu.
You can use resources more efficiently with a single machine with a lot of cores and a lot of RAM, and it's convenient. The Milk-V Pioneer with 64 2.0 GHz OoO RISC-V cores and 128 GB RAM, available since January 2024, fits that bill, but they also dismiss it because it costs $2500 as a preassembled machine (or $1500 just for motherboard with CPU, BYO RAM and storage and case/ps). But you'd spend $5000 or $6000 on x86 to get the same total throughput in emulation of RISC-V.
The same update says they just bought an Ampere Altra to support arm64. They don't say what that cost, but I believe it's going to be minimum $4000.
[1] if you don't mind a little more setup (which the Chimera people do) then the optimum optimum way is to run the build scripts and random tools themselves in RISC-V code on either real hardware or in emulation, but distcc the actual C/C++ compiles out to a cross-compiler running native on x86 or Apple (or Ampere). That gives a very significant speedup (up to 10x) over emulation or current RISC-V hardware, while retaining the ability to build even the most complex packages without problems.
I stand corrected about the high-end state of the art; TBH I haven't been following the developments in a long while. But the device in question clearly looks low-end to me. I would love to see it benchmarked against a contemporary mid-range Thinkpad or Macbook running RISC-V in emulation.
Sure, it's low end. But emulation carries a high burden.
Here are some figures from my own tests (except the Pioneer), compiling a RISC-V Linux kernel version from December 7 using defconfig. All "native" builds on either RISC-V hardware or else RISC-V Ubuntu 20.04 running in emulation (qemu) in docker.
4m35s $2500 Milk-V Pioneer 64x THead C910 @2.0 GHz
19m13s $1600 Lenovo Legion Pro 5i i9-13900HX 2023 (24 core)
67m35s $100 VisionFive 2 4x SiFive U74 @1.5 GHz
69m16s $900 Mac Mini M1 (4P + 4E cores)
70m57s $90 Lichee Pi 3A 8x Spacemit X60 @1.6 GHz
143m20s $800 Lenovo Ryzen 5 4500U laptop (6 cores Zen 2)
I’m pleased to say that the Chimera folk persisted, got access to a $2500 64 core 128 GB RAM RISC-V workstation, the Milk-V Pioneer, and successfully built their distro from scratch in a reasonable time, and have reinstated RISC-V at the same level as LoongArch.
I'd consider a tablet to be a convenient form factor for people working with front-end tools (e.g. porting a browser to RISC-V etc) as they don't then need to find another spare power cable and a spare monitor to connect to an SBC. My view is that this is a step along the way to building RISC-V hardware for end-users.
I'd guess that they chose this form-factor because they could build it relatively easily and at low cost.
Modern web browsers take several hours to compile on reasonably powerful hardware. (I don't know much about rebuilding for incremental changes. TBH I'm terrified of the scope to even try.)
Also that sounds like an incredibly niche application?
> [...] as they don't then need to find another spare power cable and a spare monitor to connect to an SBC.
My own solution is to use an HDMI capture stick to display a window on my main workstation. Works great for kiosk-type applications, and I keep my regular setup for actual coding. I previously used the hardware PIP feature of my monitor, but it will often obscure another window.
If I need KVM, and for devices that support that, I have a screen that does USB-C with DP, plus an internal USB hub to connect the keyboard and mouse. One cable to rule them all. I could probably get half a dozen USB-C/DP into HDMI+USB-A adapters but honestly swapping two cables instead of one is not that big of a deal. My screen has 4 HDMI inputs, regular DP, and USB-C/DP. I ended up using all of them ;)
Plus you get to pick more powerful HW to actually support development - even a 20% improvement is big, and IIRC that was the difference between Jetson T210 and RasPi4; enough to do non-Jetson-specific builds on a different board.
Will they ever upgrade their PinePhone offer ? I'm desperately looking for a linux smartphone at a mid-price (500EUR for a phone is way too much). I can definitevely live with sub optimal performance, not-so-good camera, etc.
This has a miserable 1280 x 800 pixel screen and eMMC storage. If you are interested in a tablet running Linux, I think my daily driver might be a better choice: A Microsoft Surface Pro 3 running Debian¹ with very few problems. It has a 2160 x 1440 touchscreen and a real SSD. Easy to find used/reconditioned for about $100.²
The important point of this product is that it's powered by RISC-V, so it's a cheap and convenient way to get RISC-V hardware into the hands of developers and tinkerers.
The Pinebook Pro laptop looks to be available from their global store. They mention that their shipping of that is different due to the battery, so I wonder if that's why they don't keep it in stock. It also seems to be a lot more expensive in their EU store.
> The Pinebook Pro is no longer in production and will therefore no longer be stocked on the PineStore. This is due to the switch of focus to the PineTab and the PineNote line of devices. There are plans to continue the Pinebook series, and it will return in the future when a suitable SOC is chosen.
I bought a PinebookPro laptop a few years ago and I liked it for what it was. I played around with IIRC Manjaro Linux on it, but got a bit stuck with trying to set it up with encrypted boot disk (on the additional NVMe drive) and moved onto something else. Maybe I should pick it up again and give it another go.
I would connect my 4G USB modem and my USB 'dvorak' keyboard. Would I need a _powered_ USB HUB?
And I would need a kind of a "stand", which would not be the keyboard.
4G modems tend to need a lot of oomph from the power supply. I'm not sure how much this port offers but standard USB 5V x 0.5A (2.5W) is not going to cut it. TX power alone can go up to 2W and that doesn't include processing, losses etc.
We don't know what kind of devices you have. But probably they won't need external power.
And for a stand it should suffice to use any nearby object.
Although that seems to be the most logical answer, on the PinePhone plugging the most basic wired keyboard (that does not even have a backlight) reduces the luminosity of the screen to the minimum. Small device tend to be very fiddly with power requirements even for simple tasks (e.g. the older raspberry pi models).
Honest question. I've been looking both at iPads and Thinkpads for a device that I can carry around, sit in a cafe with, do some typing, watch videos, play games, etc. Both of these are powerful and capable on their own, but also have unique strengths: an iPad is truly lightweight and has great battery, a Thinkpad can be docked and used as a regular workstation, etc.
Assuming I want the best value for my money, why would I choose a PINETAB over either of those?
I truly believe in RISC-V, but right now it is hardly a selling point: <https://chimera-linux.org/news/2025/03/dropping-riscv.html>
I'm pleased to say that the Chimera folk persisted, got access to a $2500 64 core 128 GB RAM RISC-V workstation, the Milk-V Pioneer, and successfully built their distro from scratch in a reasonable time, and have reinstated RISC-V at the same level as LoongArch.
Congratulations!
https://chimera-linux.org/news/2025/03/new-riscv-server.html
Most of the Pine64 range is designed for developers/tinkerers rather than end-users. This is great for people who want to play around with RISC-V hardware, but not so much for general users who'd be better off with a typical ARM powered tablet.
Your link to Chimera Linux actually illustrates the point of this kind of product - a pinetab is a cheap way to get your hands on easily usable hardware and port your favourite distro or software to it.
I'd also add that RISC-V performance isn't on par with ARM chips yet. The reason that manufacturers would want to use them has more to do with economics - no need to pay ARM for using their processors.
That's why I wonder, who is this device being sold to?
I do understand why RISC-V appeals to enthusiasts - I've been eyeing a couple RISC-V SBCs to potentially add to my homelab - I just don't understand the form factor. I sure as hell wouldn't carry two tablet/laptop-sized devices with me. Doing systems work in-system is a recipe for bricking the device until you can carry it back home. Doing integration work is much more productive if you can play with a dozen different CSI or DSI peripherals, rather than being stuck with one of each. I linked Chimera specifically to point out they've been building/porting apps thru an emulator, since it was more performant and readily available.
We've already ruled out using it for consuming media, and all but the most basic work. So what kind of hacker/enthusiast stuff can I actually do with this device specifically? It just looks like the worst of all worlds to me?
The Chimera folks seem to be confused and/or out of date.
The optimum way [1] to build thousands of RISC-V packages has been on real hardware, not in emulation, ever since the VisionFive 2 came out just over two years ago, at approximately 1/7th the price of the HiFive Unmatched they mention (which came out almost 4 years ago in May 2021).
Emulation is convenient if you already have a honking x86, and it's not already busy doing other things. e.g. typically your own desktop computer. But that doesn't scale.
It takes three to four $100 VisionFive 2s to get the same overall build performance as a $1500 i9-13900 or 14900 or Ryzen 9 7950x running RISC-V code in docker/qemu.
You can use resources more efficiently with a single machine with a lot of cores and a lot of RAM, and it's convenient. The Milk-V Pioneer with 64 2.0 GHz OoO RISC-V cores and 128 GB RAM, available since January 2024, fits that bill, but they also dismiss it because it costs $2500 as a preassembled machine (or $1500 just for motherboard with CPU, BYO RAM and storage and case/ps). But you'd spend $5000 or $6000 on x86 to get the same total throughput in emulation of RISC-V.
The same update says they just bought an Ampere Altra to support arm64. They don't say what that cost, but I believe it's going to be minimum $4000.
[1] if you don't mind a little more setup (which the Chimera people do) then the optimum optimum way is to run the build scripts and random tools themselves in RISC-V code on either real hardware or in emulation, but distcc the actual C/C++ compiles out to a cross-compiler running native on x86 or Apple (or Ampere). That gives a very significant speedup (up to 10x) over emulation or current RISC-V hardware, while retaining the ability to build even the most complex packages without problems.
I stand corrected about the high-end state of the art; TBH I haven't been following the developments in a long while. But the device in question clearly looks low-end to me. I would love to see it benchmarked against a contemporary mid-range Thinkpad or Macbook running RISC-V in emulation.
Sure, it's low end. But emulation carries a high burden.
Here are some figures from my own tests (except the Pioneer), compiling a RISC-V Linux kernel version from December 7 using defconfig. All "native" builds on either RISC-V hardware or else RISC-V Ubuntu 20.04 running in emulation (qemu) in docker.
I’m pleased to say that the Chimera folk persisted, got access to a $2500 64 core 128 GB RAM RISC-V workstation, the Milk-V Pioneer, and successfully built their distro from scratch in a reasonable time, and have reinstated RISC-V at the same level as LoongArch.
Congratulations!
https://chimera-linux.org/news/2025/03/new-riscv-server.html
I'd consider a tablet to be a convenient form factor for people working with front-end tools (e.g. porting a browser to RISC-V etc) as they don't then need to find another spare power cable and a spare monitor to connect to an SBC. My view is that this is a step along the way to building RISC-V hardware for end-users.
I'd guess that they chose this form-factor because they could build it relatively easily and at low cost.
Their January blog post indicates that the PineNote is mainly usable: https://pine64.org/2025/01/11/january_2025/
> porting a browser to RISC-V
Modern web browsers take several hours to compile on reasonably powerful hardware. (I don't know much about rebuilding for incremental changes. TBH I'm terrified of the scope to even try.)
Also that sounds like an incredibly niche application?
> [...] as they don't then need to find another spare power cable and a spare monitor to connect to an SBC.
My own solution is to use an HDMI capture stick to display a window on my main workstation. Works great for kiosk-type applications, and I keep my regular setup for actual coding. I previously used the hardware PIP feature of my monitor, but it will often obscure another window.
If I need KVM, and for devices that support that, I have a screen that does USB-C with DP, plus an internal USB hub to connect the keyboard and mouse. One cable to rule them all. I could probably get half a dozen USB-C/DP into HDMI+USB-A adapters but honestly swapping two cables instead of one is not that big of a deal. My screen has 4 HDMI inputs, regular DP, and USB-C/DP. I ended up using all of them ;)
Plus you get to pick more powerful HW to actually support development - even a 20% improvement is big, and IIRC that was the difference between Jetson T210 and RasPi4; enough to do non-Jetson-specific builds on a different board.
> Also that sounds like an incredibly niche application?
This is a niche device, so yes it's designed for niche applications and also for people who want to play around with RISC-V hardware.
Will they ever upgrade their PinePhone offer ? I'm desperately looking for a linux smartphone at a mid-price (500EUR for a phone is way too much). I can definitevely live with sub optimal performance, not-so-good camera, etc.
They already have the Pinephone Pro, don't they?
This has a miserable 1280 x 800 pixel screen and eMMC storage. If you are interested in a tablet running Linux, I think my daily driver might be a better choice: A Microsoft Surface Pro 3 running Debian¹ with very few problems. It has a 2160 x 1440 touchscreen and a real SSD. Easy to find used/reconditioned for about $100.²
[1] https://github.com/linux-surface/linux-surface
[2] https://www.ebay.com/itm/205341079054
The important point of this product is that it's powered by RISC-V, so it's a cheap and convenient way to get RISC-V hardware into the hands of developers and tinkerers.
Point taken.
I've been looking at Pine64 stuff to play around (the laptop mainly) but in Europe at least, it's constantly out of order.
The Pinebook Pro laptop looks to be available from their global store. They mention that their shipping of that is different due to the battery, so I wonder if that's why they don't keep it in stock. It also seems to be a lot more expensive in their EU store.
Edit: Seen this on their January blog https://pine64.org/2025/01/11/january_2025/ :
> The Pinebook Pro is no longer in production and will therefore no longer be stocked on the PineStore. This is due to the switch of focus to the PineTab and the PineNote line of devices. There are plans to continue the Pinebook series, and it will return in the future when a suitable SOC is chosen.
Hmm ok, let's see where this goes. I don't mind them experimenting with ARM or whatever.
I bought a PinebookPro laptop a few years ago and I liked it for what it was. I played around with IIRC Manjaro Linux on it, but got a bit stuck with trying to set it up with encrypted boot disk (on the additional NVMe drive) and moved onto something else. Maybe I should pick it up again and give it another go.
"Out of stock", you mean.
Yes, you got it.