I went back to school at 37, and got my degree at 40 (2020). I don’t regret it, though it was very tough. My classes were almost all online, and I transferred a “Associates in general studies” from a community college (obtained in 2008).
Here are my thoughts:
1) You don’t have to study your career path. You will almost certainly make more money in software than as an EE. I do electronics as a hobby, and I’m pretty happy with it. I worked full time while taking two classes a term. You already have a career in software. I’m here to tell you: you probably won’t be learning much you don’t already know. I didn’t. Why do you want to go to school to study ME/EE? If you want it, go for it. But if you’re just wanting to complete college, play to your strengths.
2) School is expensive. I cheated by going to a church college that subsidizes tuition. I have since stopped being a church-goer. I’m still proud of myself for getting my degree.
3) My wife is going back to school in mid-forties. It’s not too late.
4) You’re younger than you think. If you’re not too tied down, tear up your life. You’ve got lots in front of you. I had a wife and a newborn (still have both) and a full time job.
5) US university programs strongly bias toward kids coming out of high school. They are a quagmire of bureaucracy. Ask lots of questions about the program, find out what you can skip, what you don’t need, etc. I managed to get out of an internship requirement due to my 15 years in the industry.
Good luck, and I’m proud of you. Education is a worthy goal.
> You already have a career in software. I’m here to tell you: you probably won’t be learning much you don’t already know. I didn’t.
Woah. Pump the brakes. Even without precisely knowing what area of the IT world OP is in professionally - I can guarantee there's a huge amount of knowledge in a proper CS degree that they don't have. Granted a lot of that might be theoretics, but it's all fundamental to computer science.
Just off the top of my head - it's highly doubtful that they have familiarity with any of the following topics (all of which are found in rigorously academic CS programs):
- Linear algebra (eigenvectors, vector spaces, least squares, etc.)
- Discrete maths (recurrence, graph theory, tree spanning, grammars, etc.)
And that doesn't even begin to cover graphics and computation, compilers, algorithms, operating systems, data structures, artificial intelligence, and on and on.
You can dispute how much practical value this might have for your average software dev - but OP will 100% learn a great deal from a BS/MS in Computer Science.
> I can guarantee there's a huge amount of knowledge in a proper CS degree that they don't have.
Idk, I don't buy it. I have a master in Chemistry, but ended up a software engineer 8+ years ago with no formal CS education.
Way after starting to work, I started digging in most CS topics and I'll just plainly say that: I know more about networking, OSs, math, programming languages, type systems, algorithms and ds, system design etc than fresh graduates I interview, let alone people that graduated ages ago.
Unless you've been living under a rock, most universities out there programs are public, lecture and notes are there, and there's an overabundance of excellent full courses on YouTube and simila.
The only thing that a degree tells me is that you went through a series of tests and passed them, tells me absolutely zero, nothing, about what you retained in years studying.
It's not surprising, in chemistry it was the same. There were many people that would ace all exams but literally forget stuff or not really understand it just few weeks after an exam.
Firstly, congratulations (seriously) on your efforts. Firstly for getting a degree in chemistry (not easy) and secondly for a rigorous approach to self-improvement.
I would however suggest that you are not a prototype for self-taught programmers, much less self-taught programmers with no other degree (and thus no exposure to academic rigor.)
Of course the OP might be as advanced as you are, but its fair to suggest they likely aren't.
Personally I learned to program as a child, and then did a comp sci degree. And I got a lot of value from that which I've used through my career.
Of course (these days) there are lots of resources online so the OP could learn everything he needs "self taught", but degree programs formalize this, and give you a degree at the end of it. (And formal degrees are still a valuable hiring filter.)
> I would however suggest that you are not a prototype for self-taught programmers
Twenty-five years ago this was bog standard. Most people who were programmers did not come from a computer science background. They were self-taught. What is so different today that they cannot do the same? If anything, the biggest difference is the "gates are higher", but the work is barely different.
I work in a field where most of my customers are self-taught, often (but not always) degrees in other fields. I can only use my experience as a reference, ymmv.
What ive noticed is that people have different strategies to learning. Most adopt a "just in time" approach. They learn only enough to complete the task at hand. There is very little curiosity in the bigger picture, or the fundamentals.
This is the opposite to the formal approach, which grounds the learning in theory.
can people learn the fundamentals in a self-taught way? Obviously yes. Do most people learn this way? Id suggest not.
The contrast is to students at college who are always asking "hey am I learning this? When will I use this?" It's not always obvious where they become important.
In my own career I was able to leverage my fundamentals training and translate that into value to those who just want to complete a task.
25 years ago computers were mostly interesting to "geeks", and those looking to program them were even more so (ok, that's really 30-35).
Yes, it started to shift 25 years ago already, but what has obviously changed significantly is that software development became a good paying job, which attracted even wider masses not caring about the fundamentals. There are certainly more self-taught programmers who dive into those fundamentals in absolute numbers, but relatively they are more of a minority. But that means that there are even more who do not care in absolute numbers.
You have a point I did not consider. Having studied advanced chemistry, math and physics as a chem master obviously taught me a lot how to approach CS.
There's that, but more than just how to approach a technical topic you put in the effort to lean to such a depth on your own. Most people will not bother (if they even know how in the first place).
Also it sounds to me as though you are fully capable of independent research. Even among those who hold masters degrees that's not guaranteed. A significant part of PhD programs is ensuring that students are capable of that.
I think you are more of an outlier than you realize.
You know more than fresh graduates, but fresh graduates don’t absorb 100% of the material being taught — more like 50% at best, and many promptly forget that knowledge after taking the final. As someone who went back to school after about five years in SWE industry, I did (and still am) learning things in CS classes.
Granted I did know a lot of the material already, and I do go to Berkeley which has a comprehensive CS program, so YMMV. My main point is to not compare your knowledge to fresh grads knowledge to determine what they are taught.
I hear this refrain quite a bit: "But what have YOU retained?" and it almost comes across as weirdly accusatory. I can't speak to everyone's experience, but since we're tossing out anecdotal evidence, I've also acted in the role of interviewing applicants for software engineering positions (granted this was over a decade ago). Occasionally we'd discuss CS topics just to get a feel for the applicant and most of the applicants with BS/MS in computer science knew their stuff.
I mean if you aren't retaining a majority of what you spent 4 damn years studying then what was the point? I don't claim to have an eidetic memory but I recall the theory/application of most of what I studied in university. A few months ago, I had to whip out the Taylor series for a particular problem and I pretty much hadn't touched the concept since taking Calc 2.
It also seems like you along with a number of people seem to be addressing a point that I never once made.
Once again I suppose I need to restate the original argument because basic logic apparently missed the cutoff.
The argument was not:
- something something the vast wealth of knowledge on the internet replaces the need for your stuffy ivory tower something something
- something something my horatio algers narrative elevates me beyond the filthy CS grad mugbloods something something
- something something but what did YOU RETAIN Leonard Shelby something something
The argument was that the OP would not LEARN ANYTHING NEW in the course of acquiring a formal degree since they've already started working professionally. If the OP got a job in frontend development (for example), it's highly unlikely that they've ever encountered any of the aforementioned subject material I mentioned.
That you N=1 spent your formative years poring over scrolls of the SICP and The Art of Computer Programming like you were preparing for your bar mitvah is not generalizable to the vast majority of people working in IT.
Do you perhaps mean "useful to them"? One of the most common complaints is that CS degrees include "useless" stuff. Based on that observation alone it's difficult to believe that OP will have encountered all the relevant material in the workplace.
But then OP said ME/EE. Surely you don't mean to suggest that working as a software developer will have covered that material to any significant degree?
Edit: Nevermind, I see we agree and I misunderstood you. I'll leave the comment though because the point stands.
My BSc degree taught lots of things that would be useful for an average software developer with some experience. MSc programs tend to be more research-oriented and thus less practical unless you work in some R&D niche that matches what you studied 1-to-1.
Practical BSc materials included other programming paradigms, mostly pretty advanced declarative and functional programming, equivalent to big chunks from CTM and a typical Haskell book. Also deep relational algebra and calculi, including query optimization, and low-level driver programming, concurrency models, and networking. Further to that, compiler construction, amounting to significant chunks of the Dragon Book, etc.
This is something you can self-study. But, obviously, an institution will provide good structure and credentials. Depending on the cost, it might make more or less sense. The OP might want to look at good EU universities where tuition is free for EU nationals and coursework is taught in English at BSc level.
I suppose it isn't entirely paradoxical, but I disliked the dragon book, even though I rather liked Hopcroft/Motwani/Ullman's (theoretical, non-compiler book) Automata Theory, Languages, and Computation. (Turing award winner) Ullman giveth and taketh away.
Purple dragon (Aho/Lam/Sethi/Ullman) is probably better than red (or green) dragon though, as it adds some interesting topics.
In an undergrad course, I'd probably prefer a simple book that uses recursive descent.
Yes, my undergrad school was dominated by some compiler researchers. We didn't cover it all, by any means, but we built lots of lexers, parsers, and interpreters. There was an elective that went through the rest of the book. Crafting Interpreters would have been a better textbook, but it wasn't available at the time.
I hear this all the time on HN. I am nearly a neckbeard at this point as a programmer. I have never once used any linear algebra in my career. Discrete math: Only a tiny bit, and mostly to pass HackerRank/LeetCode questions for interviews. Looking back, the highest impact (to me) undergraduate comp-sci course was intro to algorithms. You really use those over and over again, even if you are just "using the library" (vector/map/etc.). It helps to know what and how they do it, even if you cannot write it from scratch yourself.
While you haven't used linear algebra, someone working in MLE would probably find it useful to understand. Now I'm not saying you need to take a linear algebra class to understand matrix/vector operations, but it would be useful as it comes up.
When I did my degree I tried to do as many courses unrelated to the things you listed as possible.
I signed up for as many mechanical and electrical engineering courses as possible, plus control theory, VLSI design, FPGA design, robotics and optimization.
>And that doesn't even begin to cover graphics and computation, compilers, algorithms, operating systems, data structures, artificial intelligence, and on and on.
Maybe if you are attending top3 country schools, but for the rest all those topic you can get good or better knowledge on the internet
This is bog standard stuff for any school, not "top 3". Working in software doesn't mean you know jack shit about anything. I also notice calc 2 or 3 isn't included in the list.
What's your point? You can make that argument for almost any subject matter.
The discussion was whether or not OP would LEARN anything from a traditional Computer Science degree that they hadn't already encountered as a software dev. The answer is almost assuredly yes.
To circle back around, everyone learns differently. Some people prefer a more scholastic approach to learning with classes, labs, assignments, meeting in person, and engaging with professors. Others might be just as happy listening online to lecture after lecture from MIT OpenCourses. OP sounds like they'd prefer a more traditional pathway.
but OP will 100% learn a great deal from a BS/MS in Computer Science.
You missed one of the biggest points. OP want's to do a mechanical / electrical engineering degree. So most if not all of what you're saying goes straight out the window. Actual EEs with a degree tend to go into software because they can make more money, not using much of their degree except in some specialist roles.
That's not to say that they wouldn't learn the things you said they would learn in an actual CS degree. But it it's not what OP is talking about at all.
I say that as someone that does have a Bachelor and Master degree in Comp. Sci.
This is a really interesting answer, I'd like to ask some follow up questions.
1) I've heard this from a few people now. It's a bit demotivating (just because of paying off school loans from a job that makes less money is harder) but do you think software will always pay this highly? Or do you believe as one drops the other might also. I mention EE or CS because while I love the idea of EE, at the end of the day I want a degree for more opportunities.
2) I never thought to look into this, I'll definitely add it to my list to research.
3) You're right, I guess I just think of graduating near 40 and starting over in a new field and it's hard to think about.
4) This made me think a bit, because tearing up my life could mean a couple things. I don't have kids and I'm not married so I don't have many things tying me down. To me, this would mean going to college in my home country or somewhere near for cheaper. This is a huge move and would definitely tear up my life but I go back and forth about whether it is the best move for the future or not.
5) That's a really good way to put it. Even after mentioning my age and that I've been working and I'm currently working, they go through the questions you would ask someone outside of high school which is strange. They don't like to get too in depth and just want me to apply right away. I need to be more direct in my communication and ask the questions I want to ask.
Because most hiring managers now select "Bachelors Degree" in the minimum education drop-down filter and thereby exclude all of the other beneficial attributes that a prospective employee may have.
I have 25 years of enterprise web application development and I'm getting no progress in over a year of job searching.
I have an Associates degree. The web arrived at the same time I graduated high school and I hyperfixeated on everything internet. I remember when "Yahoo!" offered their index as a text file that would fit on a 1.44 floppy. I passed the CISSP on the first try at 100 questions. I architected an internal OAuth/OIDC SDK for one of the top tier ISPs.
It's becoming obvious to me that the four year degree is the only attribute I'm missing.
I have met and worked with as many talented non-degreed SWEs as degreed. I number of years back I had posted a dev position where I specifically left off any degree requirements only to find HR had “helpfully” added a degree requirement to the posting.
At the time unemployment was low and the candidates I was getting were crap (but all well educated). I checked the post and realized a large portion of talented engineers were being excluded. Fixed the post and found a great candidate in short order.
> "Yahoo!" offered their index as a text file that would fit on a 1.44 floppy
Are there still records of this somewhere? Can't find anything on Google. I don't remember this as I didn't exist but it sounds interesting to read about.
> I have 25 years of enterprise web application development and I'm getting no progress in over a year of job searching.
I don't want to be rude, but if in 25 years of working there isn't a long list of coworkers trying to lure you to the company they are at now it seems like you've never impressed your coworkers.
People with a network don't have trouble finding jobs, and the best network you can make is simply being a good developer to work with.
Completely agreed. I don't have a degree and have been gainfully employed in the field since I graduated high school in 2001. Only the first few positions were difficult to land interviews for since I didn't have work experience to fall back on either. Since then most of my new opportunities have come from others I have worked with who wanted to work with me again. I have also been placed a couple times via recruiters, but like anything it's difficult to find decent folks in that space to work with.
In my experience there is also a lot of recruiting going on at relevant user groups and code camp style events. Me giving talks on Node.js when it was a new technology and I wanted to force myself to do something outside of my comfort zone (public speaking) also got me a job. What I've not had to do is blindly submit my resume through HR portals and hope to make it through some opaque filtering process which I suspect is where a lot of the struggles come from.
To be clear, I was asking why OP wanted to study these specific subjects - not get a Bachelors in general.
I've gotten more than one job that required a bachelors before I had one. They almost always offer the "Or requisite/similar experience". I think most employers in the Software Development space understand there is a non-trivially-sized set of qualified developers who didn't choose that path.
Let me paint the average picture of adult further education for you....step 1: get excited by a degree, all the possibilities...the nerdiness...the minutae...step 2: first day in class spent doing roll call for 40 minures, followed by a lecturer trying to turn a pc on...finally gets it working, only for you realise theyll be doing a joint in person lecture + online lecture to save costs....step 3: you cant understand a word theyre saying as no one from admin vetted their english speaking ability (or more likely were the cheapest in a pool of candidates)...step 4:your course notes are outsourced to youtube videos and mooc links. Step 5: teacher announces a class quiz is coming up and not to worry because you can use chatgpt to answer its questions. Step 5: class is paused because a student needs spoon feeding every step of their classwork.
This is a summary of my actual experience doing a technical certification in Australia (and mirrored by others who have done proper degrees too), if youre not going to a top shelf institute or dont vet every teacher for every subhect, i can wholeheartedly say, fuck further education in 2025.
Are you describing the same further education provided to "regular" age college kids in Australia? If so, wow.
Although not surprising. My 19 y/o niece goes to a university in Florida and even though she lives on campus, she only has a dozen in person classes per semester. Nearly everything is still online. It's like they never undid covid.
No, this isn't University (though that can be patchy). Under the Abbott government, he decided to gut TAFE (the government run Technical And Further Education) and put in a whole bunch of privately run VET colleges. They are almost universally awful and were designed to bring in overseas students who used it as a springboard for permanent residency.
The current government is doing a major crack down on them.
Its hortible...if the institutes conducted online classes like they had even an ounce of tech awareness (ie invested in a bunch of elgato gear + lighting) it might be excusable or tolerable. But tbh its a horrible format
Im describing TAFE, but a colleague at work who recently graduated in engineering at macq uni complained about understanding teachers which imo is the worst of the points i listed.
I did a TAFE course back in 2007 (a CCNA) and I was impressed with the first year, but swapped teachers in the second year and was absolutely appalled by the low quality.
I would imagine there's still enormous variability in 2025. It sounds like your course was even worse, possibly because it didn't have such a big hands on component and could offer an online version.
UNE is a great option if you're looking to enter university as a mature-age student. The requirements differ widely between universities for mature-age entry, with some of the Go8 universities excluding mature-age students from certain degrees altogether.
Being fair, they do make it sound as though you can enter a degree you're eligible for, and then apply to transfer to another degree after a year of study. If you're transferring to a similar degree, your completed course units would probably count towards your total required elective units.
The difference between mechanical and electrical engineering is huge. Why do you want to do either? In your last paragraph you are also considering computer science.
You need to decide which degree you actually want and why. What will you be able to do with a degree that you can't do now?
I can only speak for the US but I would look at college curriculums and look at the actual classes you need to take. Many public universities in the US have partnerships with community colleges where you can take many general education classes from the first 2 years and get the credits to transfer.
I have an electrical engineering degree and there were labs in some classes but others had none.
Maybe when you get to that point you can work part time or with flexible hours and go to those classes during the day a few times a week and work during the night.
All of this means you are going to have a big change in your life. That could be cheaper housing, cheaper vacations, less time for a personal life, etc.
Really it just boils down to I've always been enchanted by engineering but never had the ability to due to having to work to make money to keep going. I'm considering computer science just because it would be easier to do while working and recently I've heard it's cheaper.
I do have a 2 years at a community college but most of the credits won't count which is why I said "no degree" but you're right, I can transfer some.
Start by googling "university_name degree_name curriculum"
Here is my school's 4 year course curriculum including all senior year elective choices with descriptions of the classes for electrical engineering, computer engineering, computer science, and mechanical engineering.
Take some time to look at the sequence of classes. Some stuff is obvious like Calculus 2 comes after Calculus 1. Look at the classes in common during the first 1-2 years.
I strongly suggest reading every single class description and especially every senior year elective class description.
Too often people think "XYZ sounds cool, that's what I'm going to study" without actually knowing the names or descriptions of the classes they will study.
Circuits 1 was the weed out class at my school. The first day of class the professor said 1/3 of you won't be here next year. He was correct. About 20% of the students dropped the class after the first test. Many of them switched to computer science which I think is a much easier major.
When I see someone say "electrical or mechanical" that is so broad that I feel like you don't have a good understanding of what either really are. That's okay but you shouldn't be making a big life decision with a vague understanding of what they are. That's why I took the time to post all those links for you to read.
Not to say your advice is bad, but I think in many cases course descriptions are so short and vague that they won't tell you much of use. Sometimes there can be useful info in there but reading through every course description could be pretty mind-numbing. What's more informative is if you can actually get detailed course info like a reading list, assignments, etc. Unfortunately these often aren't publicly available, but professors may share them if you ask via email and explain your situation.
I do agree that looking at the required courses and degree plan is important.
I know someone who has started a distance masters, after figuring out what they really enjoyed in life.
Getting a degree today, getting an education, is a very different beast from the most common experience. Things I have noticed:
1) It was surprisingly easy to get stuck with just figuring out how to finish assignments, or get enough crammed into for an exam - even if this was a field you actually loved
2) I have changed careers, several times now, and there is a marked contrast between
- a) Having a larger project in mind, that informs your decisions
- b) Figuring out things at the rhythm of the class.
3) GenAI is a pain in the ass. It’s everywhere, and it’s probably murdering your teachers as we speak. Its also a godsend if you want something explained to you quickly (assuming it gets it right, or the subject is covered enough)
3.1) Since you are actually interested by engineering, this gives you a substantial amount of protection from falling to GPT based crutches and habits.
My core suggestion, is to find some physical real world project you actually want to work on, and see your education as a path to making that project come to fruition.
The other suggestion is to truly figure out how you like to study, since that determines how you balance life pressures and education requirements.
What state are you in? A lot of community colleges have "articulation agreements" or "guaranteed admissions agreements" with nearby public universities that give you guaranteed transfer admission if you meet the requirements. You may be able to transfer more of those credits than you think if you jump through the right hoops.
Indeed, if you live in a state that has this, it's the bargain of the century. I live in Wisconsin, and the community colleges are coordinated with the state university system.
Also, the CoCo's are really focused on teaching and helping people get an education and make it affordable. The advisers are trying to make it work for you. The teachers are unionized, so it's a sustainable career, and teaching is their top priority. I've known three of those teachers, in electronics, math, and programming, and they were all happy with their jobs. That makes a big difference.
The CoCo's also have trade school programs and 2 year degrees that are not designed for college transfer, but the advisors are there to help you figure out what you want, and what classes you need to take.
Now this is just my personal political take, but I think our society and the press should take a hiatus from devoting such exclusive attention on the "elite" universities, and instead, focus on supporting and broadening the public college and university systems.
As someone who has a BS and an ME, electrical and mechanical are very different. I got a mechanical degree undergrad and I might have done things differently in retrospect because fiddling with mechanical things is not really my forte. Though ended up as essentially a project manager and then a product manager so didn't really matter.
I fully agree that, especially as someone who has worked, the key question is "Why?"
I think you need to spend some time actually doing some of these things that you feel that you want to pursue before committing to a university degree in order to pursue them.
A lot of people mistake the idea of being something as something they like versus the process involved in being that thing. What I mean by this is, you might find you like the idea of being an ME/EE, but once it gets down to the day-to-day work in learning and being that, you may find you actually hate it.
So, start learning the basics on your own. Do a project, then re-evaluate and see if going to university would be the right choice.
As for going back to school for computer science: I would only say to do that if you plan to go straight into a graduate program. Undergrad computer science is not worth it if you already are in industry. If you feel like you're missing something, there are many books and resources that are better and significantly more interesting to work out of than what an undergrad program will offer you.
It's not totally a bad thing but I think a lot of people get undergrad degrees in something they think they're interested in and it turns out they're really not so they end up only peripherally using their undergrad major when they get a job.
I’m one year older and basically on the same path.
I always thought that other devs that had an undergrad in computer science had something in their toolbelt that I didn’t know because I didn’t go to school.
I’m 76% done with my CS degree and I’m not sure it’ll be worth it.
There are some classes I wouldn’t have taken on my own if I didn’t have the pressure like discrete math 2, stats, but to be honest in about 2 months of not using them I’m going to forget it all anyway.
Coincidentally when I dropped out of college in my early 20s I was in mech eng. I build engines and race cars as a hobby and I always wanted to gain a more scientific edge. I also dabble in circuits and have an electronic technician degree from HS so I feel like you and I may share a lot.
School takes just the right mindset. I did everything online. The first two years are honestly a waste of time and money. Non science Gen Eds at 32 are ridiculous and I almost dropped again just because of how irrelevant that all was for my adult life. In particular because I had dropped out half way before.
Anyway, I don’t know if life is different after getting the degree but I feel more confident when I pass hard classes and I inch to the end. I started applying for jobs I would’ve normally looked from afar, because I’m more convinced that I have what it takes (and it didn’t come from school).
I still think of doing mechanical engineering at least once a week.
Maybe get a certificate in something you're genuinely interested in? If you're a Linux person, there are any number of Linux Foundation and Red Hat certificate programs. See also Microsoft.
There's a lot of time, money, and generalized BS involved in a university degree. Sure, it's sort of a rite of passage out of high school. But I never seriously considered getting another degree later in my career.
There are tons of probably more practically useful certificate programs out there for someone who is already working. Maybe if you're seriously thinking about switching fields/roles but, again, that comes back to "why are you doing this?" It's presumably not for the piece of paper. I don't even know where my pieces of paper are.
Before you go full in on mechanical (ME)/electrical engineering (EE), I'd suggest you to try taking a course or two on it. For me personally, EE was a challenge and although I aspired myself to be a conventional engineer (either aerospace or electrical engineer), I ended up doing software/programming because EE was simply a subject I cannot master during college courses. If I had enough time in college (I was working 20 hrs part time and taking four other courses--was a greedy mistake of mine), maybe I'd have enjoyed my EE courses a bit more? Who knows?!
Just my two cents as a mid-40 years old (maybe I'm jaded), and don't take it the wrong way. I just don't want you to go fully commit to ME or EE without having tried a tiny bit of the college courses. Sometimes, we have ideals that we want to do, but when we actually go and do them full time, we realize we don't enjoy that activity as much as dreaming about the idealized version of such activity...
A great point that I've heard from a couple others by now. I would ideally try to get a feel of it without spending too much money on courses to see if it's really something I want to finish. Do you have any other recommendations for more cheaply figuring out if it's something I would actually enjoy?
I unfortunately don't know much other than knowing that SOME community colleges [ like this: https://www.hccfl.edu/academics/subjects/engineering/electro... ] offer intro classes (you need to know some calculus and if you are into robotics, very likely need to use SOME of linear algebra) related to EE/ME.
You may find some YouTube channels that teaches you ways to play with breadboard, but again, like I said, it (playing around with "cool/fun" toys) is different than taking classes required to finish a four-year degree.
Don't let others talk you out of pursuing EE if that's what you're curious and passionate about. I took a path similar to what you mentioned - pursuing mech-e and EE during undergrad with a focus on robotics. If you're curious and interested in something, then you can absolutely make it work. EE does tend to be math heavy, but you can explore a lot of that with hobby projects to see if you're interested. Try implementing an audio project by designing and audio amp and then using digital signal processing. You can get everything from Sparkfun or Adafruit and use online tutorials, then run your own numbers to customize the design.
Taking a course or two in it is a good idea EXCEPT in either disciplines the foundational courses can be very un-exciting, mathematical, hard to be motivated for. Discouraging. I would suggest instead to look for a slightly more advanced (in the overall curriculum) course that would be more practical. That course may be on youtube. You will be missing some of the theory foundation - but you know what - the foundation may not be needed to get the gist of what the discipline does.
For example, most people who learn build their first programs in a programing language do so without the theoretical foundation of what even is a language, what are grammars, or the whole menagerie of basic data structures.
Less discouraging, more inspiring.
Yet another alternative, is hunting through youtube for presentations or documentaries which explain what a certain job title does all day, what their work feels like, what they feel they achieve. Or books (essential book for "selling" EE digital hardware design was The Soul of a New Machine).
Try talking yourself into it; the question sounds like you’re talking yourself out of it.
You don’t need all the money at once, $80k degree is $20k/year - and only if you do it in 4 years. You are allowed to take longer (and spend less per year). If you’re working while you do the degree, the yearly cost isn’t a very big problem. Find out how online degrees work, don’t use that as a reason to not try. Apply for grants, loans, and scholarships. Some grants and scholarships are need based, and you may be easily able to demonstrate need if you explain your situation. Some grants and scholarships just go to people with interest and promise, and you don’t know if you don’t apply.
Many employers offer tuition assistance, as well as some amount of time for school. If your employer doesn’t, consider looking for one that does. You might have to work there for a year before being eligible.
If you want a CS degree instead, you can easily do that online, and it’s not very expensive, and you can do it on nights and weekends.
If you want to change careers after receiving the degree, you might indeed be back on the bottom of the ladder, but that’s not a good reason to avoid it. Imagine staying at your current job for 30 more years vs doing mechanical engineering - which would you rather? Also your growth may be more limited without a degree. While you might take an income hit temporarily, you can also advance faster and end up making more money later.
I’m pretty sure going back to school while working full time can be quite difficult depending on your ability to sacrifice social life and free time for 4 years. Full disclosure, when I thought seriously about doing a graduate degree after working for 7 years, I opted out. The school even offered a fellowship, but I had 2 kids and a house already and the fellowship didn’t even cover the cost of health insurance for the kids.
I appreciate this. I do indeed talk myself out of it because I keep coming back to the thought of "it's a lot of money, an amount of money that could sustain me if I lost my job for a while". I've dismissed scholarships because I figured I make too much and I'm too old for them, so now I'll give them a closer look.
Do you have anywhere you recommend for a CS degree? I've found it's still the same price as any other degree at the colleges I've looked at.
You could look at WGU for online CS, they’re under $10k/year and they assume you’re working. There’s lots of online information so you can do some research about whether this is really an option that fits you well or not. With work experience in software engineering, you might be able to complete an online degree at somewhere like WGU much faster than 4 years.
I’d say don’t rule out loans either. I no longer know what the landscape is like now, I used subsidized Stafford loans more than 20 years ago. But if you can get a loan with a low interest rate and deferred payback, then you wouldn’t need to worry too much. You might be able to piece the funding together via a combination of loans and work and maybe grants or scholarship if you can find some. If you lost your job or wanted to attend in-person school you could maybe also consider easier, lower-paid part time work. Is family money a potential option? (Don’t answer that, I’m just throwing out something to consider.)
I don’t mean to be glib, I would find the idea of part time work pretty hard to imagine for me, so I have some idea of what I might sound like to you… I just wanted to be encouraging and prompt some creative financial optimism for how you might achieve your goals. Getting a degree won’t guarantee your life or your finances will be better, but statistically it helps, and it is a necessary credential for most of the best jobs, and it is good to broaden your education in non-vocational ways. I’m wishing you good luck!
Have you looked at colleges/universities that have co-op education (alternating study for one term, work at a company in relevant field for another term)?
For typical STEM-related work term jobs, the money (after expenses during the work term) is enough to cover most of the costs for the next study term.
If co-op education is not available, then you'd still have earnings from three summer jobs to help offset the cost of going back to school.
I have a similar developer-without-college background and did a semester at WGU to see if that would jumpstart things
First, you have to take several general education courses and complete them alongside your technical courses. If you get stuck on an essay or exam you can't skip ahead and finish Python and JavaScript intro courses
Second, CompTIA exams built into the program cover a lot of Windows and IT security group stuff which I never encountered before as a web / software dev. Just like when I was in school, I found it difficult to memorize their definitions of tech terms and take the exam seriously (after all I've been fine without it). The cert exam was monitored by a remote proctor who needed to see my whole room. So I'd recommend going through a certification first and see how that makes you feel.
Degrees from Europe are very transferable. Germany, Italy, France, the nordics etc. all offer engineering degrees in english basically for free (or close) for all EU citizens.
I cannot think of any better and cheaper education path.
Some of the best engineers (and professors!) in the US actually got their education from minor and major Universities in Europe where they got their education for free.
I think you now have to pay for education if you come from outside the EU, at least in France. It is still cheaper than the US because it is massively subsidized by the working class. A person coming to EU only for free /cheap education is not welcomed.
It could change but, so far, most universities haven't applied that rule (even though they could). Even then, we'd be talking 2800 to 3800€ per year, a far cry from $20k.
I wouldn't recommend France, though, because engineering is mainly not taught in universities but in so-called Grandes Ecoles (they're engineering schools), which span years 3-5 and are only accessed after competitive exams at the end of year 2, from a sort of boarding high-school++ program (Classes Préparatoires).
For theoretical studies or even applied fundamental disciplines (like applied math), it's a different story, universities are excellent and they're easy to access (I mean, the better ones are selective, but you could get on board at any time using other degrees, unlike Grandes Ecoles) and get an internationally recognized degree from.
EDIT: Hadn't noticed OP is from the EU, in that case they would pay the same as French people, that's around 500€ per year max.
Yeah, you could go to e.g. TU Delft for 2500€ per year, tuition is often priced by EU/non-EU. That's basically CalTech or MIT level education in engineering for 1/30th of the price. You'd have to get in, of course.
I'm in Canada so the fee is a lot more manageable, but I absolutely have no time.
TBH I don't think going back to the school is a good idea. They have weird rules that you have to follow as a customer; You have to take a ton of BS courses to make the degree. It's just BS considering that they just have a monopoly of degrees and you have to go through one of them.
If you want to go into EE, maybe try finding some embedded job?
I wonder if OP would be able to test out of the basic requirements - algebra, language, etc. I was able to skip some of my curriculum because I took some of classes in high school that transferred over, and some I just fully tested out of - saved me probably at least a semester's worth of classes.
I'd say OP can probably do it a lot better and cheaper by building his own benches. I don't know what he exactly wants to do, but an introductory bench including an Oscilloscope, a multimeter, a dedicate power source, a function generator, a soldering station, a desoldering station and a logical analyzer is going to be a lot more affordable, especially if OP is willing to ask around for second handed equipments.
Then OP can take a look of MIT open course and similar materials to find labs to work on.
What are some of these "BS courses" that you think you could have left out? I used to think this way when I was younger, but now I'm glad my undergrad university had at least some arts and humanities requirements to round out the degree. IMO we have too many Spock-like figures in tech who aced linear algebra and can balance a binary tree in 13 programming languages, but have not even a remote exposure to ethics, philosophy or history. They end up working for terrible companies, happily building the Torment Nexus because it's an interesting technical challenge. Or they just can't have an educated conversation about a topic that's not tech related. University is not just job training.
I guess it's different for each of us, but I would be surprised if you think EVERY course you took is useful. There must be one or two?
I used to read a lot of history and humanity books so I don't really want to spend money on any such courses. Plus there are so many free ones online so I can take whatever I want instead of being forced to take something I might dislike.
Some universities offer independent studies which is cool, in which people can take courses they want. But for OP's cause I think just building a bench by himself and working on open courses is better, unless that degree is really useful.
University degrees provide (among other things): Job training, a broad, well-rounded education, and a piece of paper at the end that certifies you got both. You may have independently studied the arts long ago, just like you may already have been a math or programming wizard, but the university doesn't know this and cannot certify it in writing.
Reasonable people can argue whether or not universities -should- just be single-subject job training. But as it stands today, they aren't.
I agree with you though: If OP just wants training in a single discipline, there are tons of online engineering courses, many of them free. That's not what a university degree is for.
For all the people recommending/considering going to a 2-year college and transferring, some advice based on something that worked very well for a friend of mine:
He talked to his desired 4-year college admissions team and told them he hoped to transfer in. He got their advice on the overall process, and the classes they recommended he take at the 2-year institution vs. leaving to take at the 4-year. He did the leg work to research the local options, sent them briefs on each, and they recommended which one would fit most directly into their transfer application process.
n=1 but he did exactly what they said and ended up getting the 4-year degree he wanted from them with a minimum of drama along the way.
This is good advice, I've avoided reaching out to admissions teams because they've tended to recommend the most costly routes but I can do more research myself and take the initiative like you said.
Online but same degree as offline, good AI offering that is recent and around $10K.
Georgia Tech is also a good one.
The university of Helsinki has similar things [1].
Germany and the Netherlands have affordable degree programs open universiteit/open universität are the keywords. Not sure if you need to learn the language.
I hope this seeds your creativity a bit so you can look for a solution that fits you.
I don't want to sound negative, but why do you want to go back to school? Is this about changing career paths?
If you're already working in software development and you plan on continuing that, then I don't think the net benefits would outweigh the negatives you outlined (high cost, possibly leaving job to have the time to commit in person).
I think a better approach may be the online classes and/or self studying (computer architecture, etc). You can always follow multiple universities syllabi and do it yourself.
Can you quantify what opportunities you're missing? Or is it just a feeling or that you don't know what you're missing?
You've already got 8 years experience under your belt. I can't imagine there are many opportunities in your field that you can't get just because of a degree. I don't think any employers are going to care that you don't have a degree.
From what you've said, it sounds like you just want the degree to help you with the automated job application systems that will just auto-reject you for not having a degree. In that case, you just need something that's cheap/free and gives you pretty much any degree without much life disruption/quickly.
This story of mine might help you: I used to work in an organization where there was a Master's degree requirement for manager roles. When people would retire the managers basically picked out their favorites for who they wanted to be promoted. So, the person basically knew they were going to be promoted and all they needed was the piece of paper.
People around the office discovered Western Governor's University (WGU dot edu). It's an accredited university where tuition is paid in 6 month terms and work is done on your own schedule. You can complete as much work as you want during that term. Also, exam schedules are completely up to you.
So, my coworkers were basically taking Master's degree programs in areas where they had already been working in the industry for many years. They were finishing degree programs within that first 6 months just so they could be eligible by organization rules for the promotion they were already being shoehorned into.
I am not endorsing the school or anything but this general idea seems to make sense for your situation. It sounded like it was the kind of thing where you could basically test out of a lot of the time committment of traditional university if you already had a lot of knowledge and/or have the ability to work quickly with independent study.
Alternatively, there are some free/open universities out there that are essentially MOOCs with an option to get real course credit and degrees. I think some European colleges offer that option, like University of Helsinki.
I originally dropped out of college after attending for two years. I went back to college to finish my computer science degree at the age of 28, graduated at 30.
I had just been laid off during a recession, and figured if I didn't go now I probably never would finish my degree. I applied for loans and used the extra I got beyond tuition to help pay my rent while I went, and for a year of it I had a part time job making just over minimum wage working as a software engineer for a department in the college faculty, which also counted as my internship, and that helped a bit as well.
It was a little weird going back at first, being a decade older than almost all the other students, but I got over it pretty quick and it was all pretty normal.
I went to a state school and it still took me about 10 years to pay off the student loans I had accumulated during that two.
If I had tried to go the online only route while workin full-time still, I don't think I would have been able to stick with it. Also taking a break from the work grind to focus on school was pretty necessary to get back into school again, especially at first, as I was suddenly expected to remember everything from my classes I took almost a decade ago (like Calculus, I forgot almost all of that).
Not sure if it would be worth it for you or not, as school tuition, at least in the US, has just been skyrocketing in costs since I graduated (even before I graduated, it was a bit of a sticker shock for me going back too...kind of wish I had just stuck with it the first time around, would have been way cheaper).
Also met a guy at a hike yesterday who was in architecture for about 4 years, then sales for 10 years, and then went back to school in his late 30s to study dentistry for 4 years and is now a dentist. So another example of someone who was able to make it work somehow. I don't know his financial situation, though.
> I'd have to do it in person and it would be hard to balance with a full time job and I would need to work to just pay for life
This is true. Don’t compromise. To get the value of a degree you need to be studying full time for something like 8-9 months of a year for 3-4 years.
To make the community college idea concrete, the first 2 years of engineering are fairly standard. Take these and then transfer:
- calculus (2 semesters)
- chemistry and labs (3 semesters)
- physics and labs (3 semesters)
- engineering stats (1 semester)
- intro sequence in your field (circuits or statics/dynamics, 2 semesters)
Bonus if they have differential equations or linear algebra, but they usually don’t.
Get a requirements list for your major from the state school. Know every course. Make sure every class transfers from community college. They should have it in writing which courses are equivalent. Don’t trust that the counselor will get it right for you. Don’t take any course that doesn’t explicitly have an equivalent course number.
I have been writing software for fewer years than you have. I earned a bachelor's degree in computer science and am considering pursuing my master's soon. The problem I face is the archaic education system in my country—it seems designed to drive working professionals away. To get into a good institution, I would have to study intensively for most of the year and perform exceptionally well on an MCQ test in which each question must be answered in about two minutes. Besides that, this entrance exam is held only once a year, so if you miss the mark by just a few points, you will have to wait another year before trying again. I am still torn between returning to my studies and continuing my career in the industry.
A lot of places will allow you to transfer an associates to a 4 year. Do the general education requirements at the CC, which is practically free and will be easier to work into your schedule. Then transfer directly into your major of choice (talk the uni about this first).
Some states also have "adult learner" deals which bring the cost down if you're older. Not sure if you're old enough. If you aren't yet, you're close--I knew someone in their late 30s doing this when I was in undergrad. If you're too young, wait a couple years, save up, get a head start on your degree of choice, them do it.
In my local area, a relatively middle of the round state college, it's 30k a year. It's good advice on the associates though. I do actually have one but not many credits transfer over (which is why I put "no degree" in the post). I could go back and get more credits that would transfer for cheaper.
I am having the same problem recently. I want to get a degree in a non-tech-related area, Biological Science, but although there are online options, they are expensive, and this degree in particular has a lot of lab work. I also considered going back to my country, where university is free (but with a tough national exam to enter), but the idea of doing the degree with people 30 years younger doesn't sound exciting to me. So I’m kind of thinking about a risky path: building a curriculum with a reasoning AI model, matching it with textbooks (I don't like classes, I prefer learning from books), and studying by myself while documenting everything, so I could apply for a master’s or PhD later on (the risky part). About the labs, I will talk to some colleges and see if I can attend locally with non-degree credits. Not sure if this will work, but every other option seems worse.
I wonder why there isn't a program for self-taught students that provides validation for their efforts, like exams and access to local labs, but no classes. I believe a lot of older adults would like to go back to school but don't want to be in an environment that hasn’t even been remotely designed with them in mind.
Higher education institutions, like all bureaucracies, exist largely to sustain and validate their own existence. In this hypothetical scenario, if they admitted the masters student who taught themselves an undergrad equivalent with AI, that would be inherently admitting that their own undergrad programs aren't worth it / aren't necessary. They are not incentivized to do this.
I went to night school for a Masters in Information Science. It was 95% paid for by my company. I still kind of regret it. The people eho just worked extra hours got promoted much faster than the people who got a degree. It has never helped me. It was a waste of time and a waste of a few thousand dollars. Probably 75% of it was stuff I learned in undergrad or on the job anyways. I'm so disillusioned and feel like the world is so corrupt.
I recently applied for a demotion in my company and got turned down because I didn't match "the profile". The manager then told me the profile for the job, which was basically python, SQL, and Tablaeu. They then told me that other candidates had "real world experience like internships" (this is an entry level data analyst role). I told her examples of my on the job for each one of those, including my certification as a Tableau Data Analyst and building Tablaeu dashboards. I guess "the profile" also includes being young. I might have a disability, but I'm not stupid. I can see what's really going on. Fuck that shit.
I feel you. I am 43 and have two kids and already have a masters but not in CS. I want to go back because even though I am working in industry for quite some time, their a foundational gaps I have since I learned things on the fly.
Very little time between work and life to do so, and at the end of the day, really have a hard time justifying cost when I’ve got so much experience already…
Would you mind sharing an example or two of what sort of foundational gaps you feel you have?
I didn’t go to school for CS either and I felt like that for a while too, but at some point I stopped feeling like that. I think the feeling for me was some kind of imposter syndrome that I was attributing to the degree, but I think it turned out to actually be coming from somewhere else.
I very much feel like this also. Even after years of experience I just feel like I'm missing things, at a deeper level. I spend a lot of time learning on my own but it doesn't stick as well as I'd like it to.
The open university so far is doable for me while working full time. I study Part-Time, BSc at this pace takes 6 years.
Full Bsc Degree costs around 20k€ I believe. Sometimes the money I paid for the module is biggest motivation to do the work needed, sometimes I enjoy the courses. First year (cyber) did take very few hours with my current work experience. I am in second (full time equivalent-) year now and it's getting a bit more interesting, but still nowhere near the hours I expected to put.
Their math materials are awesome - I wish I would have taken maths over cyber. (But would have much less of a life because I would need to put much more effort)
Edit: I should add maybe: I am self taught working in a DevOps position and am older than you. I left school after 10 years, and I don't have the high school requirements to study in most universities in Europe.
Background: Didn't finish undergrad (half a jazz music degree, bunch of a classical degree, spread out over many many ears), went back to school very part time for years (ie one course at a time), then did Masters when Covid hit, now in 2nd year of PhD, age 50.
Don't know if this will work for you, put I discovered my school (UVic in Canada) was able to allow in grad students without a completed undergrad based on an exceptional portfolio and 15 years of experience in the field. I did a combined CS/music degree (technically a Masters of Music Tech), and am now in a interdiscplinary Phd (principal faculty CS, secondary music).
Stuff is way different once you get into grad school. You then have a chance to find a supervisor who is onboard with your life situation and this makes all the difference in the world. It's critically important you find supervisors and teachers who get your situation. There are those who are actively a pain in the ass (they have some kind of axe to grind or resent having peers in their classes or whatever) and others who love mature students and will be accomodating if you're handing in great work. I have two fantastic supervisors in the second camp and had various other profs like that as well. Of course, you need to hand in top shelf material to make that work.
So... an option is to do undergrad CS courses online at your own pace, build a great portfolio, and try to go in at a Masters level. I think this is, for adults, far more practical than trying to do an in person undergrad. And if you have non CS courses in your transcript, consider interdisciplinary work.
It's very hard for me to quantify how helpful the degree (and in progress degee) are because I'm so far into my career, but definitly being able to share that I have finished a Masters and am into a PhD is a huge credibility indicator for many types of consulting I do.
I would at least like to have a degree of some sort, even if it's computer science
If you just want to get an accredited computer science degree in the shortest possible time, and are willing to work hard, WGU (Western Governors University) is a good option.
You pay per semester rather than per course, so the faster you do it, the cheaper it is.
To maximize speed, do a bunch of prerequisites via Sophia or Study.com and transfer them in. Check beforehand which transfer credits WGU will accept.
There's lots of info on Reddit and YouTube about the most efficient way to do the prerequisites.
When I did my CS degree at WGU, I was 15 years older than you are now.
(I had a previous degree but in an unrelated field and from a foreign country, so the only transfers I was able to get were the ones for courses I did specially for this, on Sophia and Study.com)
Coursera, as not rigorous as it is, has several options to consider.
However, I would consider these as checking the box rather than necessarily covering everything you would learn in a 4 year degree.
For an EE degree, U Colorado Boulder has an express entry Masters in Electrical Engineering on Coursera. No Bachelor's required. $15K USD or so.
If you just wanted an MS in CS, poke around Coursera. Ball State, Colorado, and I think Clemson all offer Master's degrees without Bachelor's being necessary.
If you need a BS in CS for whatever reason, Western Governor's University is regionally accredited (better than nationally) and is both inexpensive and as fast as you want to make it. $6-7K USD per year. Personally, I consider Southern New Hampshire's offering to be more rigorous, but it's also more expensive. There is also a BS in CS from University of London on Coursera, but I haven't really looked deeply at the curriculum.
Email me at willhslade at gmail dot com for more of my thoughts.
California community colleges are some of the best in the USA for taking college classes at a fraction of the cost for in state residents. Even if you aren't in state, establishing residency can be straightforward even for undocumented folks. Just a thought
Cannot imagine going back to school now (in my 50s) or even if I were in my 30s. Who would want, as a mature adult, to sit in classes with a bunch of teenagers or young 20-something kids with all their drama and social media addiction.
If you're earning a decent or better living as a SWE, push yourself to develop that. Do online courses and/or or side projects to learn a new technology, languages, or frameworks if you need to expand your skillset. So much is out there for very little cost.
A degree is a piece of paper that often helps you get your first job. Nobody really cares much about it after that.
Edit to add: there are many times I wonder about paths not chosen. I think I would have loved being a machinist or some other sort of metal fabricator. That's just based on a fascination with it. I'm sure the daily grind of those jobs is often not fun. At some point you have to stop thinking "what if I had done..." and live your life.
I would actually look at EU countries? Maybe if you feel like your country of origin is too much of a backwater, sure, look further, but as long as you are within EU, university courses come between 1k and 5k/semester? Which, even with the more expensive option, you are well below 60k.
And - you probably are too off path for "I am going to pick school for the prestige credentials", you already have 8 years of SWE in your CV, it is fine if your uni will be something random in Europe that works under Bologna Process.
So - focus on schools that seem to be teaching well - or possibly, if you have becomming an academic in your sights, ones that would support that well. Also, I have several friends in their 30's and 40's doing university courses targeted at working people - they have weekend courses every other weekend and otherwise self study. They will end up with proper diploma and everything.
I was in a similar situation at a later age. You need to think more about what you want from the degree. For me, I just needed the sheepskin to advance my career, so I enrolled in an on-line program. If your present knowledge/skill-set has holes that a degree program would fill, you're better off making it a high priority, which means full-time in-person classrooms/labs, and sacrifices/changes to your current lifestyle. One problem you'll have is your salary history. It will preclude you from scholarships/grants that you could otherwise get. If you still have the option of living with your parents, and they're willing to help you, that could relieve some of the financial burden.
After you complete your degree, you will not be "starting at the bottom of the ladder" because you have eight years of experience on your resume'.
Can you do the first two years of education and credits at a community college, and transfer to a state school for the last 2 years?
If you want to learn on your own (or remotely), you can easily buy a lot of the EE bench equipment. And there are affordable services to do things like fabricate your printed circuit board designs.
If you can't handle the cost and time investment of a Bachelor's degree, and you really know your stuff in a field, sometimes you can do a Master's degree, which is much more focused.
There's a chance your employer has a program to reimburse tuition. If you have demanding work, and take a demanding class, together these will probably take up all your time, and require careful self-management so that you can do well at both, but it can be done.
> Can you do the first two years of education and credits at a community college, and transfer to a state school for the last 2 years?
That's what I did (albeit at a very different time in my life) and it worked well. Community colleges are usually quite supportive of students taking a light load for longer - it's a common need among their (actual and potential) students for a variety of reasons.
Check out CLEP tests. In most degree programs at least 1 year is pre requisite subjects that are not directly related to your major and which would not benefit from being in person. You can pass some of those by reading a textbook then taking a CLEP test for $80.
Just make sure whichever school will grant the degree accepts CLEP tests, not all do.
Also community colleges often have in person classes scheduled around working people's schedules, like 6-9 pm. So you can do some pre requisite classes that way for cheap.
Also you might think about planning to complete your degree over 6 years instead of 4 years. That would only be like 2-3 classes at a time instead of 5. Would be easier financially each year and easier to schedule.
If in the US first attend a local community college to knock out the first two years of general requirements for your degree. You can continue working and start saving aggressively. Then transfer to a state college to attend in person and finish your degree.
Money-wise, the US (where you say you are) are stuffed-full of financial help plans, scholarships, grants and aid schemes of all sorts. Many of these are small grantors which may grant just a few or one grant each year. Some pay just a few thousand, some everything you need. To the point that finding how to use this is very difficult and I feel most students don't bother because they don't know how. Same for most school bureaucrats or advisors? I don't know the way through them - but it feels like a highly underexploited resource. In contrast soooo many people go for student loans (which are obvious but more painful in the long term.)
I went to a state school (cheap) and took one class a semester - usually at night, sometimes on a weekend. So I'd work until 5, then take a class from say 7 to 830 every Tuesday and Thursday.
In 2009 the economy sank and I was laid off. I was able to go back full time for a while. I was already enrolled and everything, I just started taking 4-5 classes a semester instead of 1, I was also able to take them during the day for a while.
$80k over four years is a certain amount, $80k over more years is less. I think I paid less per than $20,000 for a year's worth of classes. Some people got Pell grants and financial aid, although I just paid for it cash.
GeorgiaTech's online Master's in Computer Science has lower costs. About $8k in total. I did it along with a full-time job since I only took one subject per semester.
> I do have an option to attend at my country of birth, in Eastern Europe, for much cheaper but I don't think it's easy to transfer that outside of the EU.
Even if that is the case, which it might not be, you'll still receive the skills and experience you are after. Personally, I say go for it, however of course adding moving on top of any situation may constitute a dramatic increase in leverage, so. Know your personal tolerances and work sustainably!
> I do have an option to attend at my country of birth, in Eastern Europe
If this country is in the EU, and if you live there now, you may have the option to go to college for cheap in _other_ EU countries (maybe even if you don't like there now; I'm not sure that the residence requirement is universal). I'm very out-of-date (finished 20 years ago) but for instance in Ireland I think university fees for EEA students are 2k/year.
I'm 32 and never been to university for more than a week but recently I found out that I can reduce my cost of living substantially if I can sacrifice my pride a little. I now live in a shared apt, cook my own food and have gone from spending 1200 (700 rent, 500 food) to 550e (225 rent, 325 food).
Seems to me that if you can optimize your living costs then you can save more, get a lot more freedom to pursue whatever you want
Have you considered mechatronics? There may be some curricular differences among mechatronics, EE, and mechanical engineering to consider, especially coming from a software development background.
How's your interest in embedded and robotics, versus thermodynamics and stress of materials?
What about the electrochemistry of wafers and ultraviolet lithography, versus circuit simulation and logic gates?
How much money do you make now? It might be worth it to just try to max out your earnings in your current field, and then pursue mech/EE as a hobby.
Also, consider the possibility that you could land an EE job after obtaining a degree, and then your job becomes doing in-house software development because you're the best at it among your coworkers.
Don't dismiss the intersection of disciplines. ME or EE can also lead to the intersection of mechanical and electronics (power electronics, mechatronics, robotics, low level motor/ device drivers...) Finding people who can navigate - who are interested in the intersection is harder than either sides. So can be an easier path job-wise.
It's not worth it. Degrees are slow. If you go in-person, you'll go crazy with the amount of time lost because the teacher is speaking slowly, re-explaining the same thing 4 times, making pass a quiz that's entirely useless, etc...
I am currently doing a correspondence course for a Bachelor of Teaching, but could have just as easily done it for Computer Science. It's part time and I'm working full time. It's tough, but it is doable.
Get an online degree for less. The more important thing is having the knowledge associated with the degree, which you can learn on your own. Credentials are only important for highly competitive and specialized roles.
Do you have any recommendations? It seems like there's just a few EE ones that are accredited, although I'm open to CS as well just to have a degree for the opportunities.
I'm not sure if EE stands for electrical engineering or Eastern Europe. Either way, I'd get a degree from a well-known school in the field you wish to work. I don't have an online degree so I can't recommend from experience, but that's my advice as a hiring manager. Berkeley's MAS, which has specializations in robotics, electronics, and electronics, is $42k+:
My partner is doing a distance learning bachelors from the Open University in the UK. They have both part time and full time tracks. The part time takes 6 years to complete. It's interesting too because the university has been doing distance learning for a long time, so it's not a standard online class. I believe the cost for the whole degree is around 32k USD.
Also, I suspect that if you plan to continue working in software, since you have experience, you maybe shouldn't worry too much about a degree from outside the US. I bet many recruiters just view a degree as a checkmark and are more interested in your work experience.
The here are many loopholes for pricing but if you are in the USA there are a few universities that have foreign campuses that pricing is expensive in their country they’re hosted but 50-80% cheaper then USA.
One example for Japan is Temple University. One Semester is about 1 million yen or about 6000 USD. Gives you an excuse to be in Japan. And get a degree. They have a campus also in Italy but priced more higher.
There are also American campuses in China but the price is near same same as USA!
On a similar thought, you can also do an English degree in Asia or east Europe too but for USA they may not be recognized but it’s an interesting path. I debated heavily doing an English degree program in China because it’s very very affordable, and like you I need to do it in person to pick up the language and do school work.
Tl;dr I’m assuming you’re American, if you are Temple University may fit the price for doing it in Japan and they have a computer science course, among many and a full no credit transfer to four year would cost 35~40,000 total outside rent, food, etc.
There is also opportunity cost. Assuming once again you’re from the USA, 120k/yr is the norm and most degrees are four year programs. You are giving up 560k in your prime for this, and maybe more.
I’m in the same age group, no degree and debated this as well. I’ve tried to balance remote work and WGU, and I just can’t. Work nor Uni is hard or demanding but I just feel tired and once I get off a pattern by missing school for work or other life events it’s hard to catch up and double down.
—
Another is self study with WGU, one semester is about 6 months and many people can graduate in 6 months, but, online.
If you want a degree get a degree. All the concerns you list are the least hard part of getting a degree.
Giving yourself permission to get a degree...permission to live your actual values...permission to make yourself happy...those are the hard part. Good luck.
If he truly wanted a degree, he'd already be doing it. It reads more like what he really wants is a break from software but is still in an economic reality of needing a job.
Yeah I've thought about going this route as well, but on the other hand the degree opens up more opportunities. Would it be possible to get a position in the field just with home lab experience?
Just thinking outside the normal options, you could try to apply for PhD programs.
They typically pay doctoral students, albeit not very much (~$30-40k), which could lessen the financial burden. With a little creativity in your application, you could certainly write a convincing case for why 8 years of software engineering is superior to an undergraduate degree.
Also, I would very strongly encourage you to take one or more intro classes on the side before you jump in full time. It’s critical that you don’t delude yourself about what you’re actually getting into before you fully commit.
The simple fact of the matter is, you won't be able to make it work. The system is a disadvantaged environment. The entities you interact with in doing so are malevolent, and there is no guaranteed job even with the education if you somehow make it through (which is almost impossible).
They lie, in the most vile of ways.
It is not a matter of commitment in nearly all cases, now this may be somewhat different in the EU than in the US, but the fundamentals remain the same. The university organization is incentivized to take your money and provide nothing in return but a promise that they never intended to honor. That promise was that if you know the material you'll pass the coursework, and you just need to persist and learn.
College/Uni in most places today have their programs designed to fail you, while you pay for the privilege (in part), but mainly they target the student assistance programs most governments in socialized countries have alongside student debt fueled revenue.
They are incentivized without any means to hold accountable, to do everything that they can towards that result, and they do so in sometimes very clever and sophisticated ways, but quite evil especially in the part where they try to make you think it is your fault, and not a structural defect they arbitrarily imposed on you.
Every program intersects with certain general classes that become weedout classes, and they require that they be passed, and those classes are skewed through structure so that the odds of you completing it are astronomical towards failure, and they do not disclose these structures upfront.
Some of the ways they do this include, setting up exams where you have two that must be taken, and the exam is structured to have the questions causally dependent upon previous questions answers. They do this quite a lot in physics based paths that are required for any engineering upper coursework.
They take advantage of undisclosed means needed to calculate rounding and get the correct answer. For example significant digits.
Any engineer worth their salt would say its simple, you don't round at each step until the end; so you don't introduce rounding error that propagates. Except doing this would cause you to fail because the actual expected method of rounding on the test is not provided, and the questions are causally dependent not independent.
To pass a course under such a structure you would need to only get 1 question wrong, and that question would have to be the last one of either test (just once, not both tests). Dominoes otherwise. You get the test back and you failed, "you just didn't study hard enough", is what they'll say. "You weren't commited enough", "You just aren't engineering material", while the real reason is because they deprived you of it arbitrarily indirectly through structure.
In these cases, and other words, you have to get a perfect, or you fail, and you are grouped with others that may have taken the course multiple times (and dragged the coursework grades down through grading on a curve). This is just a single example where they used multiple component elements together towards purpose depriving you of your future while breaking the fundamental promise.
There are other ways too that they do engage in this activity as well besides these, either through structure imposed by the software used such as Pearson's autograder where they randomize the question pool per student, innocuous but how do teachers know the question bank is bad? They get a signal when multiple students voice issues. No single pool, no signal.
Or material which is tested on but is not covered, or through a simple resource drain. There are many ways to do this.
The latter is probably the most common overall, and people overlook it all the time.
The coursework requires a certain finite amount of hours, in terms of lectures, and in the homework/project preparation. They may provide some unit numerical number for scheduling but that is not reflective of the time you must spend to pass the individual section for the course.
If you are told a 4 unit course will require 12 hours of work a week because 10-12 unites is full time (40h/week), and in reality that 4 unite course requires 60 hours, and you've signed up for multiple 4 unit courses, because you need to pass within a certain expected goal time, do you think you'll be able to make the time to actually complete the coursework while maintaining academic honesty?
Any amount of required work above 40 hours a week becomes impossible to sustain over a time period beyond a few weeks. Its the number one driver of burnout, and when you get burned out you fall prey to trauma loop/torture structures that are embedded.
Many courses are at least 16 week courses. Incidentally this is also why the refund period is setup right around the 2nd or third week just before the first exam. So they can keep your money and claim it was your decision to not move forward.
Importantly, not all University and Colleges are like this, nearly all are though with few exceptions. The exceptions are in the prestigious universities where its almost impossible to get in, and the tuition is naturally much higher.
Any community college, state funded, non-private, etc, will have these issues.
I spent my 20s and 30s trying to get a degree through sheer pigheadedness and overwork, and when you can do the work and still not pass you eventually realize the system is rigged.
Where no rational or reasonable person would disagree given objective reality; leaving only the delusional and the crazy saying to the contrary, or blinded (worse, because blindness leads evil people to evil acts) by avoiding pitfalls through sheer luck, and not skill or talent.
For engineering, if it were untrue that a person who is capable of accurately doing math and reasoning well above the coursework would pass, and yet I'm a prime example where I have passed the honors versions of Math with electives in practical applications (physics) up through Abstract Algebra including Discrete Math, Vector Calculus, Differential Equations; with honors. Yet no pass.
7+ attempts culminating in 3.5 years for that class alone with different professors in different college districts, for Mechanics of Solids (covers basic kinematics, 1st college course in the physics sequence), structured as previously mentioned shows if you cannot progress in a pipeline, you cannot ever achieve what is promised, and no amount of faux due process where everyone is in it together against the student or legal action can correct it.
They stopped the bi-annual cross-district engineering contest because I won it twice in a row, perfect labs, but fails in each class. Even had a recording of one of the professor talking with another professor about how to reduce their workload, and how it was the way all NEA members were doing it, to the detriment of the students. It was dismissed as speculation despite impeachment testimony.
The colleges don't collect the metrics needed to hold the professors and academic administrators accountable. The real pass-rate for some of those classes is 0% for any first time, and 5-12% for repeats depending on the professor, skewed heavily towards what the professor decides. I know of students that slept with the professor to get the insight into how to pass so they could go on to become professionals. Just absolutely horrible.
In business its either Economics, or Communication required GEs. In engineering its the physics sequence.
The social contract at most universities today is broken, and there is no credibility, and no means to correct. According to them, the reason you don't pass is because its your fault. Gaslighting is another more appropriate word for this.
A US-centric answer because that's what I can help with:
Regardless of the school you go to, look into community colleges and associates degrees. Talk to the schools you're interested in and find out what will or will not transfer in. Some schools are very picky, so don't waste two years on a EE-related associates when they only let you keep your english and history classes. But if they do let you transfer those in, spend a year knocking out those courses at a cheap (maybe even free) community college before going to a university for the engineering program.
$80k is high, but not insane unfortunately in the US. It goes higher. Your best quality-for-cost option is probably going to be Georgia Tech. It's about $6k (plus a bit more for some lab fees and things) per semester, so you're looking at around $48-60k for a 4-5 year program. This is for in-state students. I'm not sure given the current issues in hiring how Atlanta is, but it has had a pretty good job market over the years. Move to Georgia for one year, you'll qualify for in-state tuition. I believe this tuition is also available for green card holders, but I'm not certain.
GT also has (had?) associated programs with other universities in GA, often in lower cost of living areas for similar tuition costs. You'd attend those schools and get a GT engineering degree, some required you to transfer to GT main campus after your second year. I'm not familiar with how these programs currently work or if they still exist but they did a decade ago.
Downside of GT is that they're very picky about transferring in credits for math and science courses. They're less picky about the english and history and other courses that are required. So the community college/associates degree thing only takes you so far there but you can probably knock out 6-8 courses at a community college and transfer them in.
For other state universities, like with GT, you'll want to consider moving to the state for a year or so before attending to establish residence in the state.
For private universities, you can look into them but three things: They're very picky on admittance (because so many people try to get in), their costs are much higher though they offer discounts based on your income/wealth, they're often in higher cost of living areas. Even if you get steeply discounted tuition costs, the cost of living will still give you a high annual cost for attendance.
MS/PhD - Everyone suggesting this is delusional. You cannot start these programs without a bachelors unless you've somehow demonstrated exceptional ability in the field already. From your post, you've done nothing with either mechanical or electrical engineering so these are non-starters for you.
Online - This is an option. However for engineering degrees you'll be missing out on all the hands-on work. If you're an unusually dedicated student (this is more common with older students though), you can get some of this with a home lab but it won't be the same. Get internships and coops to make up for your lack of hands-on experience. Speaking frankly, I would be very disinclined to hire a student with an online engineering degree and no internships or coops in the field (I would hire them into an internship or coop program, though). The lack of hands on experience would suggest they're all theory and no practice, that's not a useful person to hire and would make you less competitive if up against candidates from an in-person program with a decent reputation.
This is very helpful, thank you. I have an associates but not many of the credits are transferrable for EE so I put "no degree" but I should start at a community college and get more credits that can transfer for cheaper.
Also, really interesting about GT. That's definitely a good chunk of savings so I'm going to look more into that today.
I agree about the online, when I was looking at the programs I figured there was no way someplace I'd really like to work would hire me without hands on experience. The hands on experience is what sounds the most exciting to me and it's by far the best way I learn.
The UNC system and NCSU is also very affordable if you're in-state and very good. Also around $10k/year for tuition and fees. The Raleigh area (NCSU) and the broader RDU area could also be a good area for you to seek employment for 1-2 years before starting school to establish residency.
> Online - This is an option. However for engineering degrees you'll be missing out on all the hands-on work. If you're an unusually dedicated student (this is more common with older students though), you can get some of this with a home lab but it won't be the same. Get internships and coops to make up for your lack of hands-on experience. Speaking frankly, I would be very disinclined to hire a student with an online engineering degree and no internships or coops in the field (I would hire them into an internship or coop program, though). The lack of hands on experience would suggest they're all theory and no practice, that's not a useful person to hire and would make you less competitive if up against candidates from an in-person program with a decent reputation
This is wrong. There are several ABET accredited online engineering degrees. Each fulfill the rigorous standards including labs. Some schools have you buy a kit, some schools make you show up occasionally, none of the ABET accredited schools are “theory only”.
Moreover all ABET accredited schools award you a full degree. Literally no one will put “completed online” on their resume and you would never know the difference. Nor should you care - an accredited degree is equivalent to an on-campus degree in every way including rigor.
Your lack of knowledge in this area is apparent and you shouldn’t scare OP off something you clearly do not understand.
I went back to school at 37, and got my degree at 40 (2020). I don’t regret it, though it was very tough. My classes were almost all online, and I transferred a “Associates in general studies” from a community college (obtained in 2008).
Here are my thoughts: 1) You don’t have to study your career path. You will almost certainly make more money in software than as an EE. I do electronics as a hobby, and I’m pretty happy with it. I worked full time while taking two classes a term. You already have a career in software. I’m here to tell you: you probably won’t be learning much you don’t already know. I didn’t. Why do you want to go to school to study ME/EE? If you want it, go for it. But if you’re just wanting to complete college, play to your strengths.
2) School is expensive. I cheated by going to a church college that subsidizes tuition. I have since stopped being a church-goer. I’m still proud of myself for getting my degree.
3) My wife is going back to school in mid-forties. It’s not too late.
4) You’re younger than you think. If you’re not too tied down, tear up your life. You’ve got lots in front of you. I had a wife and a newborn (still have both) and a full time job.
5) US university programs strongly bias toward kids coming out of high school. They are a quagmire of bureaucracy. Ask lots of questions about the program, find out what you can skip, what you don’t need, etc. I managed to get out of an internship requirement due to my 15 years in the industry.
Good luck, and I’m proud of you. Education is a worthy goal.
> You already have a career in software. I’m here to tell you: you probably won’t be learning much you don’t already know. I didn’t.
Woah. Pump the brakes. Even without precisely knowing what area of the IT world OP is in professionally - I can guarantee there's a huge amount of knowledge in a proper CS degree that they don't have. Granted a lot of that might be theoretics, but it's all fundamental to computer science.
Just off the top of my head - it's highly doubtful that they have familiarity with any of the following topics (all of which are found in rigorously academic CS programs):
- Linear algebra (eigenvectors, vector spaces, least squares, etc.)
- Discrete maths (recurrence, graph theory, tree spanning, grammars, etc.)
And that doesn't even begin to cover graphics and computation, compilers, algorithms, operating systems, data structures, artificial intelligence, and on and on.
You can dispute how much practical value this might have for your average software dev - but OP will 100% learn a great deal from a BS/MS in Computer Science.
> I can guarantee there's a huge amount of knowledge in a proper CS degree that they don't have.
Idk, I don't buy it. I have a master in Chemistry, but ended up a software engineer 8+ years ago with no formal CS education.
Way after starting to work, I started digging in most CS topics and I'll just plainly say that: I know more about networking, OSs, math, programming languages, type systems, algorithms and ds, system design etc than fresh graduates I interview, let alone people that graduated ages ago.
Unless you've been living under a rock, most universities out there programs are public, lecture and notes are there, and there's an overabundance of excellent full courses on YouTube and simila.
The only thing that a degree tells me is that you went through a series of tests and passed them, tells me absolutely zero, nothing, about what you retained in years studying.
It's not surprising, in chemistry it was the same. There were many people that would ace all exams but literally forget stuff or not really understand it just few weeks after an exam.
Firstly, congratulations (seriously) on your efforts. Firstly for getting a degree in chemistry (not easy) and secondly for a rigorous approach to self-improvement.
I would however suggest that you are not a prototype for self-taught programmers, much less self-taught programmers with no other degree (and thus no exposure to academic rigor.)
Of course the OP might be as advanced as you are, but its fair to suggest they likely aren't.
Personally I learned to program as a child, and then did a comp sci degree. And I got a lot of value from that which I've used through my career.
Of course (these days) there are lots of resources online so the OP could learn everything he needs "self taught", but degree programs formalize this, and give you a degree at the end of it. (And formal degrees are still a valuable hiring filter.)
I work in a field where most of my customers are self-taught, often (but not always) degrees in other fields. I can only use my experience as a reference, ymmv.
What ive noticed is that people have different strategies to learning. Most adopt a "just in time" approach. They learn only enough to complete the task at hand. There is very little curiosity in the bigger picture, or the fundamentals.
This is the opposite to the formal approach, which grounds the learning in theory.
can people learn the fundamentals in a self-taught way? Obviously yes. Do most people learn this way? Id suggest not.
The contrast is to students at college who are always asking "hey am I learning this? When will I use this?" It's not always obvious where they become important.
In my own career I was able to leverage my fundamentals training and translate that into value to those who just want to complete a task.
25 years ago computers were mostly interesting to "geeks", and those looking to program them were even more so (ok, that's really 30-35).
Yes, it started to shift 25 years ago already, but what has obviously changed significantly is that software development became a good paying job, which attracted even wider masses not caring about the fundamentals. There are certainly more self-taught programmers who dive into those fundamentals in absolute numbers, but relatively they are more of a minority. But that means that there are even more who do not care in absolute numbers.
You have a point I did not consider. Having studied advanced chemistry, math and physics as a chem master obviously taught me a lot how to approach CS.
There's that, but more than just how to approach a technical topic you put in the effort to lean to such a depth on your own. Most people will not bother (if they even know how in the first place).
Also it sounds to me as though you are fully capable of independent research. Even among those who hold masters degrees that's not guaranteed. A significant part of PhD programs is ensuring that students are capable of that.
I think you are more of an outlier than you realize.
You know more than fresh graduates, but fresh graduates don’t absorb 100% of the material being taught — more like 50% at best, and many promptly forget that knowledge after taking the final. As someone who went back to school after about five years in SWE industry, I did (and still am) learning things in CS classes.
Granted I did know a lot of the material already, and I do go to Berkeley which has a comprehensive CS program, so YMMV. My main point is to not compare your knowledge to fresh grads knowledge to determine what they are taught.
I hear this refrain quite a bit: "But what have YOU retained?" and it almost comes across as weirdly accusatory. I can't speak to everyone's experience, but since we're tossing out anecdotal evidence, I've also acted in the role of interviewing applicants for software engineering positions (granted this was over a decade ago). Occasionally we'd discuss CS topics just to get a feel for the applicant and most of the applicants with BS/MS in computer science knew their stuff.
I mean if you aren't retaining a majority of what you spent 4 damn years studying then what was the point? I don't claim to have an eidetic memory but I recall the theory/application of most of what I studied in university. A few months ago, I had to whip out the Taylor series for a particular problem and I pretty much hadn't touched the concept since taking Calc 2.
It also seems like you along with a number of people seem to be addressing a point that I never once made.
Once again I suppose I need to restate the original argument because basic logic apparently missed the cutoff.
The argument was not:
- something something the vast wealth of knowledge on the internet replaces the need for your stuffy ivory tower something something
- something something my horatio algers narrative elevates me beyond the filthy CS grad mugbloods something something
- something something but what did YOU RETAIN Leonard Shelby something something
The argument was that the OP would not LEARN ANYTHING NEW in the course of acquiring a formal degree since they've already started working professionally. If the OP got a job in frontend development (for example), it's highly unlikely that they've ever encountered any of the aforementioned subject material I mentioned.
That you N=1 spent your formative years poring over scrolls of the SICP and The Art of Computer Programming like you were preparing for your bar mitvah is not generalizable to the vast majority of people working in IT.
> the OP would not LEARN ANYTHING NEW
Do you perhaps mean "useful to them"? One of the most common complaints is that CS degrees include "useless" stuff. Based on that observation alone it's difficult to believe that OP will have encountered all the relevant material in the workplace.
But then OP said ME/EE. Surely you don't mean to suggest that working as a software developer will have covered that material to any significant degree?
Edit: Nevermind, I see we agree and I misunderstood you. I'll leave the comment though because the point stands.
I think of working problem sets as training in the sense of gym training rather than job training.
Gym training is also good for your brain of course.
My BSc degree taught lots of things that would be useful for an average software developer with some experience. MSc programs tend to be more research-oriented and thus less practical unless you work in some R&D niche that matches what you studied 1-to-1.
Practical BSc materials included other programming paradigms, mostly pretty advanced declarative and functional programming, equivalent to big chunks from CTM and a typical Haskell book. Also deep relational algebra and calculi, including query optimization, and low-level driver programming, concurrency models, and networking. Further to that, compiler construction, amounting to significant chunks of the Dragon Book, etc.
This is something you can self-study. But, obviously, an institution will provide good structure and credentials. Depending on the cost, it might make more or less sense. The OP might want to look at good EU universities where tuition is free for EU nationals and coursework is taught in English at BSc level.
I suppose it isn't entirely paradoxical, but I disliked the dragon book, even though I rather liked Hopcroft/Motwani/Ullman's (theoretical, non-compiler book) Automata Theory, Languages, and Computation. (Turing award winner) Ullman giveth and taketh away.
Purple dragon (Aho/Lam/Sethi/Ullman) is probably better than red (or green) dragon though, as it adds some interesting topics.
In an undergrad course, I'd probably prefer a simple book that uses recursive descent.
Yes, my undergrad school was dominated by some compiler researchers. We didn't cover it all, by any means, but we built lots of lexers, parsers, and interpreters. There was an elective that went through the rest of the book. Crafting Interpreters would have been a better textbook, but it wasn't available at the time.
I hear this all the time on HN. I am nearly a neckbeard at this point as a programmer. I have never once used any linear algebra in my career. Discrete math: Only a tiny bit, and mostly to pass HackerRank/LeetCode questions for interviews. Looking back, the highest impact (to me) undergraduate comp-sci course was intro to algorithms. You really use those over and over again, even if you are just "using the library" (vector/map/etc.). It helps to know what and how they do it, even if you cannot write it from scratch yourself.
While you haven't used linear algebra, someone working in MLE would probably find it useful to understand. Now I'm not saying you need to take a linear algebra class to understand matrix/vector operations, but it would be useful as it comes up.
When I did my degree I tried to do as many courses unrelated to the things you listed as possible.
I signed up for as many mechanical and electrical engineering courses as possible, plus control theory, VLSI design, FPGA design, robotics and optimization.
>And that doesn't even begin to cover graphics and computation, compilers, algorithms, operating systems, data structures, artificial intelligence, and on and on.
Maybe if you are attending top3 country schools, but for the rest all those topic you can get good or better knowledge on the internet
> Maybe if you are attending top3 country schools
This is bog standard stuff for any school, not "top 3". Working in software doesn't mean you know jack shit about anything. I also notice calc 2 or 3 isn't included in the list.
What's your point? You can make that argument for almost any subject matter.
The discussion was whether or not OP would LEARN anything from a traditional Computer Science degree that they hadn't already encountered as a software dev. The answer is almost assuredly yes.
To circle back around, everyone learns differently. Some people prefer a more scholastic approach to learning with classes, labs, assignments, meeting in person, and engaging with professors. Others might be just as happy listening online to lecture after lecture from MIT OpenCourses. OP sounds like they'd prefer a more traditional pathway.
That's not to say that they wouldn't learn the things you said they would learn in an actual CS degree. But it it's not what OP is talking about at all.
I say that as someone that does have a Bachelor and Master degree in Comp. Sci.
Sigh. It's also not what was I addressing AT ALL. The line of reasoning was:
sircastor: You (OP) already have a career in software. I’m here to tell you: you probably won’t be learning much you don’t already know.
Me: Yes they will. (Irrespective of whether they choose to study mechanical engineering, electrical engineering, or computer science.)
Fin
And FWIW, OP did mention CS as a possible field of study.
This is a really interesting answer, I'd like to ask some follow up questions.
1) I've heard this from a few people now. It's a bit demotivating (just because of paying off school loans from a job that makes less money is harder) but do you think software will always pay this highly? Or do you believe as one drops the other might also. I mention EE or CS because while I love the idea of EE, at the end of the day I want a degree for more opportunities.
2) I never thought to look into this, I'll definitely add it to my list to research.
3) You're right, I guess I just think of graduating near 40 and starting over in a new field and it's hard to think about.
4) This made me think a bit, because tearing up my life could mean a couple things. I don't have kids and I'm not married so I don't have many things tying me down. To me, this would mean going to college in my home country or somewhere near for cheaper. This is a huge move and would definitely tear up my life but I go back and forth about whether it is the best move for the future or not.
5) That's a really good way to put it. Even after mentioning my age and that I've been working and I'm currently working, they go through the questions you would ask someone outside of high school which is strange. They don't like to get too in depth and just want me to apply right away. I need to be more direct in my communication and ask the questions I want to ask.
Thank you again for the advice.
> Why do you want to go to school to study ME/EE?
Because most hiring managers now select "Bachelors Degree" in the minimum education drop-down filter and thereby exclude all of the other beneficial attributes that a prospective employee may have.
I have 25 years of enterprise web application development and I'm getting no progress in over a year of job searching.
I have an Associates degree. The web arrived at the same time I graduated high school and I hyperfixeated on everything internet. I remember when "Yahoo!" offered their index as a text file that would fit on a 1.44 floppy. I passed the CISSP on the first try at 100 questions. I architected an internal OAuth/OIDC SDK for one of the top tier ISPs.
It's becoming obvious to me that the four year degree is the only attribute I'm missing.
I have met and worked with as many talented non-degreed SWEs as degreed. I number of years back I had posted a dev position where I specifically left off any degree requirements only to find HR had “helpfully” added a degree requirement to the posting.
At the time unemployment was low and the candidates I was getting were crap (but all well educated). I checked the post and realized a large portion of talented engineers were being excluded. Fixed the post and found a great candidate in short order.
> "Yahoo!" offered their index as a text file that would fit on a 1.44 floppy
Are there still records of this somewhere? Can't find anything on Google. I don't remember this as I didn't exist but it sounds interesting to read about.
> I have 25 years of enterprise web application development and I'm getting no progress in over a year of job searching.
I don't want to be rude, but if in 25 years of working there isn't a long list of coworkers trying to lure you to the company they are at now it seems like you've never impressed your coworkers.
People with a network don't have trouble finding jobs, and the best network you can make is simply being a good developer to work with.
Completely agreed. I don't have a degree and have been gainfully employed in the field since I graduated high school in 2001. Only the first few positions were difficult to land interviews for since I didn't have work experience to fall back on either. Since then most of my new opportunities have come from others I have worked with who wanted to work with me again. I have also been placed a couple times via recruiters, but like anything it's difficult to find decent folks in that space to work with.
In my experience there is also a lot of recruiting going on at relevant user groups and code camp style events. Me giving talks on Node.js when it was a new technology and I wanted to force myself to do something outside of my comfort zone (public speaking) also got me a job. What I've not had to do is blindly submit my resume through HR portals and hope to make it through some opaque filtering process which I suspect is where a lot of the struggles come from.
really helpful stuff, thanks!
To be clear, I was asking why OP wanted to study these specific subjects - not get a Bachelors in general.
I've gotten more than one job that required a bachelors before I had one. They almost always offer the "Or requisite/similar experience". I think most employers in the Software Development space understand there is a non-trivially-sized set of qualified developers who didn't choose that path.
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BYU?
Let me paint the average picture of adult further education for you....step 1: get excited by a degree, all the possibilities...the nerdiness...the minutae...step 2: first day in class spent doing roll call for 40 minures, followed by a lecturer trying to turn a pc on...finally gets it working, only for you realise theyll be doing a joint in person lecture + online lecture to save costs....step 3: you cant understand a word theyre saying as no one from admin vetted their english speaking ability (or more likely were the cheapest in a pool of candidates)...step 4:your course notes are outsourced to youtube videos and mooc links. Step 5: teacher announces a class quiz is coming up and not to worry because you can use chatgpt to answer its questions. Step 5: class is paused because a student needs spoon feeding every step of their classwork.
This is a summary of my actual experience doing a technical certification in Australia (and mirrored by others who have done proper degrees too), if youre not going to a top shelf institute or dont vet every teacher for every subhect, i can wholeheartedly say, fuck further education in 2025.
Are you describing the same further education provided to "regular" age college kids in Australia? If so, wow.
Although not surprising. My 19 y/o niece goes to a university in Florida and even though she lives on campus, she only has a dozen in person classes per semester. Nearly everything is still online. It's like they never undid covid.
No, this isn't University (though that can be patchy). Under the Abbott government, he decided to gut TAFE (the government run Technical And Further Education) and put in a whole bunch of privately run VET colleges. They are almost universally awful and were designed to bring in overseas students who used it as a springboard for permanent residency.
The current government is doing a major crack down on them.
Its hortible...if the institutes conducted online classes like they had even an ounce of tech awareness (ie invested in a bunch of elgato gear + lighting) it might be excusable or tolerable. But tbh its a horrible format
Im describing TAFE, but a colleague at work who recently graduated in engineering at macq uni complained about understanding teachers which imo is the worst of the points i listed.
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I did a TAFE course back in 2007 (a CCNA) and I was impressed with the first year, but swapped teachers in the second year and was absolutely appalled by the low quality.
I would imagine there's still enormous variability in 2025. It sounds like your course was even worse, possibly because it didn't have such a big hands on component and could offer an online version.
If you are in Australia and using a vocational college, then this is what you'll get. Try doing a course with UNE.
UNE is a great option if you're looking to enter university as a mature-age student. The requirements differ widely between universities for mature-age entry, with some of the Go8 universities excluding mature-age students from certain degrees altogether.
This is news to me. Which subjects and which Go8 universities do this?
USYD's website states that mature-age entry students are only eligible for a select set of courses: https://www.sydney.edu.au/study/applying/admission-pathways/...
Being fair, they do make it sound as though you can enter a degree you're eligible for, and then apply to transfer to another degree after a year of study. If you're transferring to a similar degree, your completed course units would probably count towards your total required elective units.
There are ways of getting into those courses without going through the Mature Age Scheme. Mature age students just don't get preferential treatment.
What country are you in now?
The difference between mechanical and electrical engineering is huge. Why do you want to do either? In your last paragraph you are also considering computer science.
You need to decide which degree you actually want and why. What will you be able to do with a degree that you can't do now?
I can only speak for the US but I would look at college curriculums and look at the actual classes you need to take. Many public universities in the US have partnerships with community colleges where you can take many general education classes from the first 2 years and get the credits to transfer.
I have an electrical engineering degree and there were labs in some classes but others had none.
Maybe when you get to that point you can work part time or with flexible hours and go to those classes during the day a few times a week and work during the night.
All of this means you are going to have a big change in your life. That could be cheaper housing, cheaper vacations, less time for a personal life, etc.
I'm in the US.
Really it just boils down to I've always been enchanted by engineering but never had the ability to due to having to work to make money to keep going. I'm considering computer science just because it would be easier to do while working and recently I've heard it's cheaper.
I do have a 2 years at a community college but most of the credits won't count which is why I said "no degree" but you're right, I can transfer some.
Start by googling "university_name degree_name curriculum"
Here is my school's 4 year course curriculum including all senior year elective choices with descriptions of the classes for electrical engineering, computer engineering, computer science, and mechanical engineering.
https://catalog.ncsu.edu/undergraduate/engineering/electrica...
https://catalog.ncsu.edu/undergraduate/engineering/electrica...
https://catalog.ncsu.edu/undergraduate/engineering/computer-...
https://catalog.ncsu.edu/undergraduate/engineering/mechanica...
Take some time to look at the sequence of classes. Some stuff is obvious like Calculus 2 comes after Calculus 1. Look at the classes in common during the first 1-2 years.
I strongly suggest reading every single class description and especially every senior year elective class description.
Too often people think "XYZ sounds cool, that's what I'm going to study" without actually knowing the names or descriptions of the classes they will study.
Circuits 1 was the weed out class at my school. The first day of class the professor said 1/3 of you won't be here next year. He was correct. About 20% of the students dropped the class after the first test. Many of them switched to computer science which I think is a much easier major.
When I see someone say "electrical or mechanical" that is so broad that I feel like you don't have a good understanding of what either really are. That's okay but you shouldn't be making a big life decision with a vague understanding of what they are. That's why I took the time to post all those links for you to read.
Not to say your advice is bad, but I think in many cases course descriptions are so short and vague that they won't tell you much of use. Sometimes there can be useful info in there but reading through every course description could be pretty mind-numbing. What's more informative is if you can actually get detailed course info like a reading list, assignments, etc. Unfortunately these often aren't publicly available, but professors may share them if you ask via email and explain your situation.
I do agree that looking at the required courses and degree plan is important.
I know someone who has started a distance masters, after figuring out what they really enjoyed in life.
Getting a degree today, getting an education, is a very different beast from the most common experience. Things I have noticed:
1) It was surprisingly easy to get stuck with just figuring out how to finish assignments, or get enough crammed into for an exam - even if this was a field you actually loved
2) I have changed careers, several times now, and there is a marked contrast between
- a) Having a larger project in mind, that informs your decisions
- b) Figuring out things at the rhythm of the class.
3) GenAI is a pain in the ass. It’s everywhere, and it’s probably murdering your teachers as we speak. Its also a godsend if you want something explained to you quickly (assuming it gets it right, or the subject is covered enough)
3.1) Since you are actually interested by engineering, this gives you a substantial amount of protection from falling to GPT based crutches and habits.
My core suggestion, is to find some physical real world project you actually want to work on, and see your education as a path to making that project come to fruition.
The other suggestion is to truly figure out how you like to study, since that determines how you balance life pressures and education requirements.
What state are you in? A lot of community colleges have "articulation agreements" or "guaranteed admissions agreements" with nearby public universities that give you guaranteed transfer admission if you meet the requirements. You may be able to transfer more of those credits than you think if you jump through the right hoops.
Indeed, if you live in a state that has this, it's the bargain of the century. I live in Wisconsin, and the community colleges are coordinated with the state university system.
Also, the CoCo's are really focused on teaching and helping people get an education and make it affordable. The advisers are trying to make it work for you. The teachers are unionized, so it's a sustainable career, and teaching is their top priority. I've known three of those teachers, in electronics, math, and programming, and they were all happy with their jobs. That makes a big difference.
The CoCo's also have trade school programs and 2 year degrees that are not designed for college transfer, but the advisors are there to help you figure out what you want, and what classes you need to take.
Now this is just my personal political take, but I think our society and the press should take a hiatus from devoting such exclusive attention on the "elite" universities, and instead, focus on supporting and broadening the public college and university systems.
As someone who has a BS and an ME, electrical and mechanical are very different. I got a mechanical degree undergrad and I might have done things differently in retrospect because fiddling with mechanical things is not really my forte. Though ended up as essentially a project manager and then a product manager so didn't really matter.
I fully agree that, especially as someone who has worked, the key question is "Why?"
It's just something that I've always wished I pursued, and on a general note I would like to just have a degree in something.
I think you need to spend some time actually doing some of these things that you feel that you want to pursue before committing to a university degree in order to pursue them.
A lot of people mistake the idea of being something as something they like versus the process involved in being that thing. What I mean by this is, you might find you like the idea of being an ME/EE, but once it gets down to the day-to-day work in learning and being that, you may find you actually hate it.
So, start learning the basics on your own. Do a project, then re-evaluate and see if going to university would be the right choice.
As for going back to school for computer science: I would only say to do that if you plan to go straight into a graduate program. Undergrad computer science is not worth it if you already are in industry. If you feel like you're missing something, there are many books and resources that are better and significantly more interesting to work out of than what an undergrad program will offer you.
It's not totally a bad thing but I think a lot of people get undergrad degrees in something they think they're interested in and it turns out they're really not so they end up only peripherally using their undergrad major when they get a job.
I’m one year older and basically on the same path. I always thought that other devs that had an undergrad in computer science had something in their toolbelt that I didn’t know because I didn’t go to school.
I’m 76% done with my CS degree and I’m not sure it’ll be worth it.
There are some classes I wouldn’t have taken on my own if I didn’t have the pressure like discrete math 2, stats, but to be honest in about 2 months of not using them I’m going to forget it all anyway.
Coincidentally when I dropped out of college in my early 20s I was in mech eng. I build engines and race cars as a hobby and I always wanted to gain a more scientific edge. I also dabble in circuits and have an electronic technician degree from HS so I feel like you and I may share a lot.
School takes just the right mindset. I did everything online. The first two years are honestly a waste of time and money. Non science Gen Eds at 32 are ridiculous and I almost dropped again just because of how irrelevant that all was for my adult life. In particular because I had dropped out half way before.
Anyway, I don’t know if life is different after getting the degree but I feel more confident when I pass hard classes and I inch to the end. I started applying for jobs I would’ve normally looked from afar, because I’m more convinced that I have what it takes (and it didn’t come from school).
I still think of doing mechanical engineering at least once a week.
1992-1993 was a good time.
>I would like to just have a degree in something
Maybe get a certificate in something you're genuinely interested in? If you're a Linux person, there are any number of Linux Foundation and Red Hat certificate programs. See also Microsoft.
There's a lot of time, money, and generalized BS involved in a university degree. Sure, it's sort of a rite of passage out of high school. But I never seriously considered getting another degree later in my career.
There are tons of probably more practically useful certificate programs out there for someone who is already working. Maybe if you're seriously thinking about switching fields/roles but, again, that comes back to "why are you doing this?" It's presumably not for the piece of paper. I don't even know where my pieces of paper are.
What would you like to build if you had that degree?
Before you go full in on mechanical (ME)/electrical engineering (EE), I'd suggest you to try taking a course or two on it. For me personally, EE was a challenge and although I aspired myself to be a conventional engineer (either aerospace or electrical engineer), I ended up doing software/programming because EE was simply a subject I cannot master during college courses. If I had enough time in college (I was working 20 hrs part time and taking four other courses--was a greedy mistake of mine), maybe I'd have enjoyed my EE courses a bit more? Who knows?!
Just my two cents as a mid-40 years old (maybe I'm jaded), and don't take it the wrong way. I just don't want you to go fully commit to ME or EE without having tried a tiny bit of the college courses. Sometimes, we have ideals that we want to do, but when we actually go and do them full time, we realize we don't enjoy that activity as much as dreaming about the idealized version of such activity...
A great point that I've heard from a couple others by now. I would ideally try to get a feel of it without spending too much money on courses to see if it's really something I want to finish. Do you have any other recommendations for more cheaply figuring out if it's something I would actually enjoy?
I unfortunately don't know much other than knowing that SOME community colleges [ like this: https://www.hccfl.edu/academics/subjects/engineering/electro... ] offer intro classes (you need to know some calculus and if you are into robotics, very likely need to use SOME of linear algebra) related to EE/ME.
You may find some YouTube channels that teaches you ways to play with breadboard, but again, like I said, it (playing around with "cool/fun" toys) is different than taking classes required to finish a four-year degree.
Best wishes for your learning journey!
Don't let others talk you out of pursuing EE if that's what you're curious and passionate about. I took a path similar to what you mentioned - pursuing mech-e and EE during undergrad with a focus on robotics. If you're curious and interested in something, then you can absolutely make it work. EE does tend to be math heavy, but you can explore a lot of that with hobby projects to see if you're interested. Try implementing an audio project by designing and audio amp and then using digital signal processing. You can get everything from Sparkfun or Adafruit and use online tutorials, then run your own numbers to customize the design.
Taking a course or two in it is a good idea EXCEPT in either disciplines the foundational courses can be very un-exciting, mathematical, hard to be motivated for. Discouraging. I would suggest instead to look for a slightly more advanced (in the overall curriculum) course that would be more practical. That course may be on youtube. You will be missing some of the theory foundation - but you know what - the foundation may not be needed to get the gist of what the discipline does.
For example, most people who learn build their first programs in a programing language do so without the theoretical foundation of what even is a language, what are grammars, or the whole menagerie of basic data structures.
Less discouraging, more inspiring.
Yet another alternative, is hunting through youtube for presentations or documentaries which explain what a certain job title does all day, what their work feels like, what they feel they achieve. Or books (essential book for "selling" EE digital hardware design was The Soul of a New Machine).
Try talking yourself into it; the question sounds like you’re talking yourself out of it.
You don’t need all the money at once, $80k degree is $20k/year - and only if you do it in 4 years. You are allowed to take longer (and spend less per year). If you’re working while you do the degree, the yearly cost isn’t a very big problem. Find out how online degrees work, don’t use that as a reason to not try. Apply for grants, loans, and scholarships. Some grants and scholarships are need based, and you may be easily able to demonstrate need if you explain your situation. Some grants and scholarships just go to people with interest and promise, and you don’t know if you don’t apply.
Many employers offer tuition assistance, as well as some amount of time for school. If your employer doesn’t, consider looking for one that does. You might have to work there for a year before being eligible.
If you want a CS degree instead, you can easily do that online, and it’s not very expensive, and you can do it on nights and weekends.
If you want to change careers after receiving the degree, you might indeed be back on the bottom of the ladder, but that’s not a good reason to avoid it. Imagine staying at your current job for 30 more years vs doing mechanical engineering - which would you rather? Also your growth may be more limited without a degree. While you might take an income hit temporarily, you can also advance faster and end up making more money later.
I’m pretty sure going back to school while working full time can be quite difficult depending on your ability to sacrifice social life and free time for 4 years. Full disclosure, when I thought seriously about doing a graduate degree after working for 7 years, I opted out. The school even offered a fellowship, but I had 2 kids and a house already and the fellowship didn’t even cover the cost of health insurance for the kids.
I appreciate this. I do indeed talk myself out of it because I keep coming back to the thought of "it's a lot of money, an amount of money that could sustain me if I lost my job for a while". I've dismissed scholarships because I figured I make too much and I'm too old for them, so now I'll give them a closer look.
Do you have anywhere you recommend for a CS degree? I've found it's still the same price as any other degree at the colleges I've looked at.
You could look at WGU for online CS, they’re under $10k/year and they assume you’re working. There’s lots of online information so you can do some research about whether this is really an option that fits you well or not. With work experience in software engineering, you might be able to complete an online degree at somewhere like WGU much faster than 4 years.
I’d say don’t rule out loans either. I no longer know what the landscape is like now, I used subsidized Stafford loans more than 20 years ago. But if you can get a loan with a low interest rate and deferred payback, then you wouldn’t need to worry too much. You might be able to piece the funding together via a combination of loans and work and maybe grants or scholarship if you can find some. If you lost your job or wanted to attend in-person school you could maybe also consider easier, lower-paid part time work. Is family money a potential option? (Don’t answer that, I’m just throwing out something to consider.)
I don’t mean to be glib, I would find the idea of part time work pretty hard to imagine for me, so I have some idea of what I might sound like to you… I just wanted to be encouraging and prompt some creative financial optimism for how you might achieve your goals. Getting a degree won’t guarantee your life or your finances will be better, but statistically it helps, and it is a necessary credential for most of the best jobs, and it is good to broaden your education in non-vocational ways. I’m wishing you good luck!
Have you looked at colleges/universities that have co-op education (alternating study for one term, work at a company in relevant field for another term)?
For typical STEM-related work term jobs, the money (after expenses during the work term) is enough to cover most of the costs for the next study term.
If co-op education is not available, then you'd still have earnings from three summer jobs to help offset the cost of going back to school.
I have a similar developer-without-college background and did a semester at WGU to see if that would jumpstart things
First, you have to take several general education courses and complete them alongside your technical courses. If you get stuck on an essay or exam you can't skip ahead and finish Python and JavaScript intro courses
Second, CompTIA exams built into the program cover a lot of Windows and IT security group stuff which I never encountered before as a web / software dev. Just like when I was in school, I found it difficult to memorize their definitions of tech terms and take the exam seriously (after all I've been fine without it). The cert exam was monitored by a remote proctor who needed to see my whole room. So I'd recommend going through a certification first and see how that makes you feel.
Degrees from Europe are very transferable. Germany, Italy, France, the nordics etc. all offer engineering degrees in english basically for free (or close) for all EU citizens. I cannot think of any better and cheaper education path. Some of the best engineers (and professors!) in the US actually got their education from minor and major Universities in Europe where they got their education for free.
I think you now have to pay for education if you come from outside the EU, at least in France. It is still cheaper than the US because it is massively subsidized by the working class. A person coming to EU only for free /cheap education is not welcomed.
It could change but, so far, most universities haven't applied that rule (even though they could). Even then, we'd be talking 2800 to 3800€ per year, a far cry from $20k.
I wouldn't recommend France, though, because engineering is mainly not taught in universities but in so-called Grandes Ecoles (they're engineering schools), which span years 3-5 and are only accessed after competitive exams at the end of year 2, from a sort of boarding high-school++ program (Classes Préparatoires).
For theoretical studies or even applied fundamental disciplines (like applied math), it's a different story, universities are excellent and they're easy to access (I mean, the better ones are selective, but you could get on board at any time using other degrees, unlike Grandes Ecoles) and get an internationally recognized degree from.
EDIT: Hadn't noticed OP is from the EU, in that case they would pay the same as French people, that's around 500€ per year max.
OP is originally from the EU.
This is interesting, I only ever thought about my home country but since it's a part of the EU I could attend another EU country's college for cheap?
Yeah, you could go to e.g. TU Delft for 2500€ per year, tuition is often priced by EU/non-EU. That's basically CalTech or MIT level education in engineering for 1/30th of the price. You'd have to get in, of course.
I'm in Canada so the fee is a lot more manageable, but I absolutely have no time.
TBH I don't think going back to the school is a good idea. They have weird rules that you have to follow as a customer; You have to take a ton of BS courses to make the degree. It's just BS considering that they just have a monopoly of degrees and you have to go through one of them.
If you want to go into EE, maybe try finding some embedded job?
I wonder if OP would be able to test out of the basic requirements - algebra, language, etc. I was able to skip some of my curriculum because I took some of classes in high school that transferred over, and some I just fully tested out of - saved me probably at least a semester's worth of classes.
Yeah that's a good thought.
I'd say OP can probably do it a lot better and cheaper by building his own benches. I don't know what he exactly wants to do, but an introductory bench including an Oscilloscope, a multimeter, a dedicate power source, a function generator, a soldering station, a desoldering station and a logical analyzer is going to be a lot more affordable, especially if OP is willing to ask around for second handed equipments.
Then OP can take a look of MIT open course and similar materials to find labs to work on.
What are some of these "BS courses" that you think you could have left out? I used to think this way when I was younger, but now I'm glad my undergrad university had at least some arts and humanities requirements to round out the degree. IMO we have too many Spock-like figures in tech who aced linear algebra and can balance a binary tree in 13 programming languages, but have not even a remote exposure to ethics, philosophy or history. They end up working for terrible companies, happily building the Torment Nexus because it's an interesting technical challenge. Or they just can't have an educated conversation about a topic that's not tech related. University is not just job training.
I guess it's different for each of us, but I would be surprised if you think EVERY course you took is useful. There must be one or two?
I used to read a lot of history and humanity books so I don't really want to spend money on any such courses. Plus there are so many free ones online so I can take whatever I want instead of being forced to take something I might dislike.
Some universities offer independent studies which is cool, in which people can take courses they want. But for OP's cause I think just building a bench by himself and working on open courses is better, unless that degree is really useful.
University degrees provide (among other things): Job training, a broad, well-rounded education, and a piece of paper at the end that certifies you got both. You may have independently studied the arts long ago, just like you may already have been a math or programming wizard, but the university doesn't know this and cannot certify it in writing.
Reasonable people can argue whether or not universities -should- just be single-subject job training. But as it stands today, they aren't.
I agree with you though: If OP just wants training in a single discipline, there are tons of online engineering courses, many of them free. That's not what a university degree is for.
For all the people recommending/considering going to a 2-year college and transferring, some advice based on something that worked very well for a friend of mine:
He talked to his desired 4-year college admissions team and told them he hoped to transfer in. He got their advice on the overall process, and the classes they recommended he take at the 2-year institution vs. leaving to take at the 4-year. He did the leg work to research the local options, sent them briefs on each, and they recommended which one would fit most directly into their transfer application process.
n=1 but he did exactly what they said and ended up getting the 4-year degree he wanted from them with a minimum of drama along the way.
This is good advice, I've avoided reaching out to admissions teams because they've tended to recommend the most costly routes but I can do more research myself and take the initiative like you said.
What about MSCSO at UT texas?
Online but same degree as offline, good AI offering that is recent and around $10K.
Georgia Tech is also a good one.
The university of Helsinki has similar things [1].
Germany and the Netherlands have affordable degree programs open universiteit/open universität are the keywords. Not sure if you need to learn the language.
I hope this seeds your creativity a bit so you can look for a solution that fits you.
[1] https://www.helsinki.fi/en/admissions-and-education/open-uni...
I don't want to sound negative, but why do you want to go back to school? Is this about changing career paths?
If you're already working in software development and you plan on continuing that, then I don't think the net benefits would outweigh the negatives you outlined (high cost, possibly leaving job to have the time to commit in person).
I think a better approach may be the online classes and/or self studying (computer architecture, etc). You can always follow multiple universities syllabi and do it yourself.
It's less about changing career paths, since I can always learn EE on my own, but I've always wanted to have a degree for more opportunities.
Can you quantify what opportunities you're missing? Or is it just a feeling or that you don't know what you're missing?
You've already got 8 years experience under your belt. I can't imagine there are many opportunities in your field that you can't get just because of a degree. I don't think any employers are going to care that you don't have a degree.
From what you've said, it sounds like you just want the degree to help you with the automated job application systems that will just auto-reject you for not having a degree. In that case, you just need something that's cheap/free and gives you pretty much any degree without much life disruption/quickly.
This story of mine might help you: I used to work in an organization where there was a Master's degree requirement for manager roles. When people would retire the managers basically picked out their favorites for who they wanted to be promoted. So, the person basically knew they were going to be promoted and all they needed was the piece of paper.
People around the office discovered Western Governor's University (WGU dot edu). It's an accredited university where tuition is paid in 6 month terms and work is done on your own schedule. You can complete as much work as you want during that term. Also, exam schedules are completely up to you.
So, my coworkers were basically taking Master's degree programs in areas where they had already been working in the industry for many years. They were finishing degree programs within that first 6 months just so they could be eligible by organization rules for the promotion they were already being shoehorned into.
I am not endorsing the school or anything but this general idea seems to make sense for your situation. It sounded like it was the kind of thing where you could basically test out of a lot of the time committment of traditional university if you already had a lot of knowledge and/or have the ability to work quickly with independent study.
Alternatively, there are some free/open universities out there that are essentially MOOCs with an option to get real course credit and degrees. I think some European colleges offer that option, like University of Helsinki.
Have you thought about Competency-Based Education?
You can skip some time if you can demonstrate you know your stuff.
https://www.wgu.edu/about/story/cbe.html
https://gem.snhu.edu/competency-based-learning/
I originally dropped out of college after attending for two years. I went back to college to finish my computer science degree at the age of 28, graduated at 30.
I had just been laid off during a recession, and figured if I didn't go now I probably never would finish my degree. I applied for loans and used the extra I got beyond tuition to help pay my rent while I went, and for a year of it I had a part time job making just over minimum wage working as a software engineer for a department in the college faculty, which also counted as my internship, and that helped a bit as well.
It was a little weird going back at first, being a decade older than almost all the other students, but I got over it pretty quick and it was all pretty normal.
I went to a state school and it still took me about 10 years to pay off the student loans I had accumulated during that two.
If I had tried to go the online only route while workin full-time still, I don't think I would have been able to stick with it. Also taking a break from the work grind to focus on school was pretty necessary to get back into school again, especially at first, as I was suddenly expected to remember everything from my classes I took almost a decade ago (like Calculus, I forgot almost all of that).
Not sure if it would be worth it for you or not, as school tuition, at least in the US, has just been skyrocketing in costs since I graduated (even before I graduated, it was a bit of a sticker shock for me going back too...kind of wish I had just stuck with it the first time around, would have been way cheaper).
Also met a guy at a hike yesterday who was in architecture for about 4 years, then sales for 10 years, and then went back to school in his late 30s to study dentistry for 4 years and is now a dentist. So another example of someone who was able to make it work somehow. I don't know his financial situation, though.
> I'd have to do it in person and it would be hard to balance with a full time job and I would need to work to just pay for life
This is true. Don’t compromise. To get the value of a degree you need to be studying full time for something like 8-9 months of a year for 3-4 years.
To make the community college idea concrete, the first 2 years of engineering are fairly standard. Take these and then transfer:
- calculus (2 semesters) - chemistry and labs (3 semesters) - physics and labs (3 semesters) - engineering stats (1 semester) - intro sequence in your field (circuits or statics/dynamics, 2 semesters)
Bonus if they have differential equations or linear algebra, but they usually don’t.
Get a requirements list for your major from the state school. Know every course. Make sure every class transfers from community college. They should have it in writing which courses are equivalent. Don’t trust that the counselor will get it right for you. Don’t take any course that doesn’t explicitly have an equivalent course number.
I have been writing software for fewer years than you have. I earned a bachelor's degree in computer science and am considering pursuing my master's soon. The problem I face is the archaic education system in my country—it seems designed to drive working professionals away. To get into a good institution, I would have to study intensively for most of the year and perform exceptionally well on an MCQ test in which each question must be answered in about two minutes. Besides that, this entrance exam is held only once a year, so if you miss the mark by just a few points, you will have to wait another year before trying again. I am still torn between returning to my studies and continuing my career in the industry.
Where are you looking for a bachelor's degree that costs 80k?
Start with an associate at community College. It's way cheaper, maybe even free.
A lot of places will allow you to transfer an associates to a 4 year. Do the general education requirements at the CC, which is practically free and will be easier to work into your schedule. Then transfer directly into your major of choice (talk the uni about this first).
Some states also have "adult learner" deals which bring the cost down if you're older. Not sure if you're old enough. If you aren't yet, you're close--I knew someone in their late 30s doing this when I was in undergrad. If you're too young, wait a couple years, save up, get a head start on your degree of choice, them do it.
In my local area, a relatively middle of the round state college, it's 30k a year. It's good advice on the associates though. I do actually have one but not many credits transfer over (which is why I put "no degree" in the post). I could go back and get more credits that would transfer for cheaper.
I am having the same problem recently. I want to get a degree in a non-tech-related area, Biological Science, but although there are online options, they are expensive, and this degree in particular has a lot of lab work. I also considered going back to my country, where university is free (but with a tough national exam to enter), but the idea of doing the degree with people 30 years younger doesn't sound exciting to me. So I’m kind of thinking about a risky path: building a curriculum with a reasoning AI model, matching it with textbooks (I don't like classes, I prefer learning from books), and studying by myself while documenting everything, so I could apply for a master’s or PhD later on (the risky part). About the labs, I will talk to some colleges and see if I can attend locally with non-degree credits. Not sure if this will work, but every other option seems worse.
I wonder why there isn't a program for self-taught students that provides validation for their efforts, like exams and access to local labs, but no classes. I believe a lot of older adults would like to go back to school but don't want to be in an environment that hasn’t even been remotely designed with them in mind.
Higher education institutions, like all bureaucracies, exist largely to sustain and validate their own existence. In this hypothetical scenario, if they admitted the masters student who taught themselves an undergrad equivalent with AI, that would be inherently admitting that their own undergrad programs aren't worth it / aren't necessary. They are not incentivized to do this.
I went to night school for a Masters in Information Science. It was 95% paid for by my company. I still kind of regret it. The people eho just worked extra hours got promoted much faster than the people who got a degree. It has never helped me. It was a waste of time and a waste of a few thousand dollars. Probably 75% of it was stuff I learned in undergrad or on the job anyways. I'm so disillusioned and feel like the world is so corrupt.
I recently applied for a demotion in my company and got turned down because I didn't match "the profile". The manager then told me the profile for the job, which was basically python, SQL, and Tablaeu. They then told me that other candidates had "real world experience like internships" (this is an entry level data analyst role). I told her examples of my on the job for each one of those, including my certification as a Tableau Data Analyst and building Tablaeu dashboards. I guess "the profile" also includes being young. I might have a disability, but I'm not stupid. I can see what's really going on. Fuck that shit.
I feel you. I am 43 and have two kids and already have a masters but not in CS. I want to go back because even though I am working in industry for quite some time, their a foundational gaps I have since I learned things on the fly. Very little time between work and life to do so, and at the end of the day, really have a hard time justifying cost when I’ve got so much experience already…
Would you mind sharing an example or two of what sort of foundational gaps you feel you have?
I didn’t go to school for CS either and I felt like that for a while too, but at some point I stopped feeling like that. I think the feeling for me was some kind of imposter syndrome that I was attributing to the degree, but I think it turned out to actually be coming from somewhere else.
I very much feel like this also. Even after years of experience I just feel like I'm missing things, at a deeper level. I spend a lot of time learning on my own but it doesn't stick as well as I'd like it to.
Maybe attending online college courses like Coursera could be a compromise?
The open university so far is doable for me while working full time. I study Part-Time, BSc at this pace takes 6 years.
Full Bsc Degree costs around 20k€ I believe. Sometimes the money I paid for the module is biggest motivation to do the work needed, sometimes I enjoy the courses. First year (cyber) did take very few hours with my current work experience. I am in second (full time equivalent-) year now and it's getting a bit more interesting, but still nowhere near the hours I expected to put.
Their math materials are awesome - I wish I would have taken maths over cyber. (But would have much less of a life because I would need to put much more effort)
Edit: I should add maybe: I am self taught working in a DevOps position and am older than you. I left school after 10 years, and I don't have the high school requirements to study in most universities in Europe.
https://www.open.ac.uk/
Background: Didn't finish undergrad (half a jazz music degree, bunch of a classical degree, spread out over many many ears), went back to school very part time for years (ie one course at a time), then did Masters when Covid hit, now in 2nd year of PhD, age 50.
Don't know if this will work for you, put I discovered my school (UVic in Canada) was able to allow in grad students without a completed undergrad based on an exceptional portfolio and 15 years of experience in the field. I did a combined CS/music degree (technically a Masters of Music Tech), and am now in a interdiscplinary Phd (principal faculty CS, secondary music).
Stuff is way different once you get into grad school. You then have a chance to find a supervisor who is onboard with your life situation and this makes all the difference in the world. It's critically important you find supervisors and teachers who get your situation. There are those who are actively a pain in the ass (they have some kind of axe to grind or resent having peers in their classes or whatever) and others who love mature students and will be accomodating if you're handing in great work. I have two fantastic supervisors in the second camp and had various other profs like that as well. Of course, you need to hand in top shelf material to make that work.
So... an option is to do undergrad CS courses online at your own pace, build a great portfolio, and try to go in at a Masters level. I think this is, for adults, far more practical than trying to do an in person undergrad. And if you have non CS courses in your transcript, consider interdisciplinary work.
It's very hard for me to quantify how helpful the degree (and in progress degee) are because I'm so far into my career, but definitly being able to share that I have finished a Masters and am into a PhD is a huge credibility indicator for many types of consulting I do.
You pay per semester rather than per course, so the faster you do it, the cheaper it is.
Miguel described how to do it here: https://miguelrochefort.com/blog/cs-degree/
To maximize speed, do a bunch of prerequisites via Sophia or Study.com and transfer them in. Check beforehand which transfer credits WGU will accept.
There's lots of info on Reddit and YouTube about the most efficient way to do the prerequisites.
When I did my CS degree at WGU, I was 15 years older than you are now.
(I had a previous degree but in an unrelated field and from a foreign country, so the only transfers I was able to get were the ones for courses I did specially for this, on Sophia and Study.com)
Coursera, as not rigorous as it is, has several options to consider. However, I would consider these as checking the box rather than necessarily covering everything you would learn in a 4 year degree.
For an EE degree, U Colorado Boulder has an express entry Masters in Electrical Engineering on Coursera. No Bachelor's required. $15K USD or so.
If you just wanted an MS in CS, poke around Coursera. Ball State, Colorado, and I think Clemson all offer Master's degrees without Bachelor's being necessary.
If you need a BS in CS for whatever reason, Western Governor's University is regionally accredited (better than nationally) and is both inexpensive and as fast as you want to make it. $6-7K USD per year. Personally, I consider Southern New Hampshire's offering to be more rigorous, but it's also more expensive. There is also a BS in CS from University of London on Coursera, but I haven't really looked deeply at the curriculum.
Email me at willhslade at gmail dot com for more of my thoughts.
California community colleges are some of the best in the USA for taking college classes at a fraction of the cost for in state residents. Even if you aren't in state, establishing residency can be straightforward even for undocumented folks. Just a thought
Cannot imagine going back to school now (in my 50s) or even if I were in my 30s. Who would want, as a mature adult, to sit in classes with a bunch of teenagers or young 20-something kids with all their drama and social media addiction.
If you're earning a decent or better living as a SWE, push yourself to develop that. Do online courses and/or or side projects to learn a new technology, languages, or frameworks if you need to expand your skillset. So much is out there for very little cost.
A degree is a piece of paper that often helps you get your first job. Nobody really cares much about it after that.
Edit to add: there are many times I wonder about paths not chosen. I think I would have loved being a machinist or some other sort of metal fabricator. That's just based on a fascination with it. I'm sure the daily grind of those jobs is often not fun. At some point you have to stop thinking "what if I had done..." and live your life.
I would actually look at EU countries? Maybe if you feel like your country of origin is too much of a backwater, sure, look further, but as long as you are within EU, university courses come between 1k and 5k/semester? Which, even with the more expensive option, you are well below 60k.
And - you probably are too off path for "I am going to pick school for the prestige credentials", you already have 8 years of SWE in your CV, it is fine if your uni will be something random in Europe that works under Bologna Process.
So - focus on schools that seem to be teaching well - or possibly, if you have becomming an academic in your sights, ones that would support that well. Also, I have several friends in their 30's and 40's doing university courses targeted at working people - they have weekend courses every other weekend and otherwise self study. They will end up with proper diploma and everything.
I was in a similar situation at a later age. You need to think more about what you want from the degree. For me, I just needed the sheepskin to advance my career, so I enrolled in an on-line program. If your present knowledge/skill-set has holes that a degree program would fill, you're better off making it a high priority, which means full-time in-person classrooms/labs, and sacrifices/changes to your current lifestyle. One problem you'll have is your salary history. It will preclude you from scholarships/grants that you could otherwise get. If you still have the option of living with your parents, and they're willing to help you, that could relieve some of the financial burden. After you complete your degree, you will not be "starting at the bottom of the ladder" because you have eight years of experience on your resume'.
I don't know where you are located but Massachusetts has free community college for adults 25 years old and older: https://www.mass.gov/info-details/free-community-college.
Can you do the first two years of education and credits at a community college, and transfer to a state school for the last 2 years?
If you want to learn on your own (or remotely), you can easily buy a lot of the EE bench equipment. And there are affordable services to do things like fabricate your printed circuit board designs.
If you can't handle the cost and time investment of a Bachelor's degree, and you really know your stuff in a field, sometimes you can do a Master's degree, which is much more focused.
There's a chance your employer has a program to reimburse tuition. If you have demanding work, and take a demanding class, together these will probably take up all your time, and require careful self-management so that you can do well at both, but it can be done.
> Can you do the first two years of education and credits at a community college, and transfer to a state school for the last 2 years?
That's what I did (albeit at a very different time in my life) and it worked well. Community colleges are usually quite supportive of students taking a light load for longer - it's a common need among their (actual and potential) students for a variety of reasons.
Check out CLEP tests. In most degree programs at least 1 year is pre requisite subjects that are not directly related to your major and which would not benefit from being in person. You can pass some of those by reading a textbook then taking a CLEP test for $80.
Just make sure whichever school will grant the degree accepts CLEP tests, not all do.
Also community colleges often have in person classes scheduled around working people's schedules, like 6-9 pm. So you can do some pre requisite classes that way for cheap.
Also you might think about planning to complete your degree over 6 years instead of 4 years. That would only be like 2-3 classes at a time instead of 5. Would be easier financially each year and easier to schedule.
If in the US first attend a local community college to knock out the first two years of general requirements for your degree. You can continue working and start saving aggressively. Then transfer to a state college to attend in person and finish your degree.
Money-wise, the US (where you say you are) are stuffed-full of financial help plans, scholarships, grants and aid schemes of all sorts. Many of these are small grantors which may grant just a few or one grant each year. Some pay just a few thousand, some everything you need. To the point that finding how to use this is very difficult and I feel most students don't bother because they don't know how. Same for most school bureaucrats or advisors? I don't know the way through them - but it feels like a highly underexploited resource. In contrast soooo many people go for student loans (which are obvious but more painful in the long term.)
I went to a state school (cheap) and took one class a semester - usually at night, sometimes on a weekend. So I'd work until 5, then take a class from say 7 to 830 every Tuesday and Thursday.
In 2009 the economy sank and I was laid off. I was able to go back full time for a while. I was already enrolled and everything, I just started taking 4-5 classes a semester instead of 1, I was also able to take them during the day for a while.
$80k over four years is a certain amount, $80k over more years is less. I think I paid less per than $20,000 for a year's worth of classes. Some people got Pell grants and financial aid, although I just paid for it cash.
If you need to work, then get a job at a university that offers free tuition for employees.
I've had friend that worked as janitors for four years to get degrees from good/expensive schools.
GeorgiaTech's online Master's in Computer Science has lower costs. About $8k in total. I did it along with a full-time job since I only took one subject per semester.
You need a bachelors to get into it which they don't have.
I have a coworker that did this and also recommended it but unfortunately I need the bachelor's first. Do you know any cheaper CS bachelor's programs?
> I do have an option to attend at my country of birth, in Eastern Europe, for much cheaper but I don't think it's easy to transfer that outside of the EU.
Even if that is the case, which it might not be, you'll still receive the skills and experience you are after. Personally, I say go for it, however of course adding moving on top of any situation may constitute a dramatic increase in leverage, so. Know your personal tolerances and work sustainably!
> I do have an option to attend at my country of birth, in Eastern Europe
If this country is in the EU, and if you live there now, you may have the option to go to college for cheap in _other_ EU countries (maybe even if you don't like there now; I'm not sure that the residence requirement is universal). I'm very out-of-date (finished 20 years ago) but for instance in Ireland I think university fees for EEA students are 2k/year.
I'm 32 and never been to university for more than a week but recently I found out that I can reduce my cost of living substantially if I can sacrifice my pride a little. I now live in a shared apt, cook my own food and have gone from spending 1200 (700 rent, 500 food) to 550e (225 rent, 325 food).
Seems to me that if you can optimize your living costs then you can save more, get a lot more freedom to pursue whatever you want
Have you considered mechatronics? There may be some curricular differences among mechatronics, EE, and mechanical engineering to consider, especially coming from a software development background.
How's your interest in embedded and robotics, versus thermodynamics and stress of materials?
What about the electrochemistry of wafers and ultraviolet lithography, versus circuit simulation and logic gates?
How much money do you make now? It might be worth it to just try to max out your earnings in your current field, and then pursue mech/EE as a hobby.
Also, consider the possibility that you could land an EE job after obtaining a degree, and then your job becomes doing in-house software development because you're the best at it among your coworkers.
Don't dismiss the intersection of disciplines. ME or EE can also lead to the intersection of mechanical and electronics (power electronics, mechatronics, robotics, low level motor/ device drivers...) Finding people who can navigate - who are interested in the intersection is harder than either sides. So can be an easier path job-wise.
It's not worth it. Degrees are slow. If you go in-person, you'll go crazy with the amount of time lost because the teacher is speaking slowly, re-explaining the same thing 4 times, making pass a quiz that's entirely useless, etc...
I'm way late to this party, but I'm happy to give advice as well. Chris {at sign} theamphour.com
I'm an EE with some loud opinions about the state of higher education for electronics, but I'm sure there's a path for you.
I am currently doing a correspondence course for a Bachelor of Teaching, but could have just as easily done it for Computer Science. It's part time and I'm working full time. It's tough, but it is doable.
Hope you know your salary is going to be like 50% lower if you switch to mech eng.
Do you think that will always be true? Are software developer salaries going to be this high always?
Very good question. I'm not sure but it doesn't seem like anything has changed that would mean they would go down. LLMs included.
Get an online degree for less. The more important thing is having the knowledge associated with the degree, which you can learn on your own. Credentials are only important for highly competitive and specialized roles.
Do you have any recommendations? It seems like there's just a few EE ones that are accredited, although I'm open to CS as well just to have a degree for the opportunities.
I'm not sure if EE stands for electrical engineering or Eastern Europe. Either way, I'd get a degree from a well-known school in the field you wish to work. I don't have an online degree so I can't recommend from experience, but that's my advice as a hiring manager. Berkeley's MAS, which has specializations in robotics, electronics, and electronics, is $42k+:
https://www.coursera.org/degrees/mas-engineering-berkeley
The CS program rankings are roughly https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-science-sch...
I suggest reviewing the curricula before applying.
My partner is doing a distance learning bachelors from the Open University in the UK. They have both part time and full time tracks. The part time takes 6 years to complete. It's interesting too because the university has been doing distance learning for a long time, so it's not a standard online class. I believe the cost for the whole degree is around 32k USD.
Also, I suspect that if you plan to continue working in software, since you have experience, you maybe shouldn't worry too much about a degree from outside the US. I bet many recruiters just view a degree as a checkmark and are more interested in your work experience.
Why mechanical/electrical ? Very anecdotal but most of my friends from college who got a degree in that ended up chasing software engineering jobs.
I mean I'm sure mechanical/electrical jobs exists but from my admittedly limited view it always seems like it's the opposite move so interested.
Also 80k is ridiculous if it's in the US , maybe it's the specific university you're looking at ?
I think they mean 80k total for all 4 or 5 years.
That seems reasonable to me for a 4 year degree from one of any of the 50 public flagships. (I assume that's what they're talking about.)
I just looked up the average for public state universities per year and it's around 10k (8-15k)
Which lines up with my own costs. Am I missing something ?
Really? The state college by me, middle of the road type, is 30k a year in state.
Just double checked, I see multiple sources with the same information.
In state yearly tuition. Mind sharing your state ? Or one around you if you think that's too personal
Drop me an email at HN at richardboegli dot com
Sorry just sent one to the original, will send one to this as well.
I run by a dogma that is an education every 10 years.
I have a masters in computer science (my 20s) and am finishing a business degree for my 30 - which was less intense and allowed me to work full time.
My goal would be to embark on an phd going into my 40s - where I again would be at a place to give myself into full time studies.
I strongly believe in continued education.
Not any answer to your question, merely a perspective.
The here are many loopholes for pricing but if you are in the USA there are a few universities that have foreign campuses that pricing is expensive in their country they’re hosted but 50-80% cheaper then USA. One example for Japan is Temple University. One Semester is about 1 million yen or about 6000 USD. Gives you an excuse to be in Japan. And get a degree. They have a campus also in Italy but priced more higher.
There are also American campuses in China but the price is near same same as USA!
On a similar thought, you can also do an English degree in Asia or east Europe too but for USA they may not be recognized but it’s an interesting path. I debated heavily doing an English degree program in China because it’s very very affordable, and like you I need to do it in person to pick up the language and do school work.
Tl;dr I’m assuming you’re American, if you are Temple University may fit the price for doing it in Japan and they have a computer science course, among many and a full no credit transfer to four year would cost 35~40,000 total outside rent, food, etc.
There is also opportunity cost. Assuming once again you’re from the USA, 120k/yr is the norm and most degrees are four year programs. You are giving up 560k in your prime for this, and maybe more.
I’m in the same age group, no degree and debated this as well. I’ve tried to balance remote work and WGU, and I just can’t. Work nor Uni is hard or demanding but I just feel tired and once I get off a pattern by missing school for work or other life events it’s hard to catch up and double down.
— Another is self study with WGU, one semester is about 6 months and many people can graduate in 6 months, but, online.
Average English taught degree programs (but not English major) range to about $5000-9000/yr in Japan and China.
I have not researched other places but this could be useful in your decision making (and others thinking about this too.)
Also you need to be aware of deadlines and such. Everything is strict when you’re a student.
If you want a degree get a degree. All the concerns you list are the least hard part of getting a degree.
Giving yourself permission to get a degree...permission to live your actual values...permission to make yourself happy...those are the hard part. Good luck.
> All the concerns you list are the least hard part of getting a degree.
I don't think that "paying $80k" and "finding the time to actually get the degree while maintaining a full-time job" are the "least hard" parts.
The author said they don't have to pay $80k because degrees in their home country are cheaper.
The author could work part time for less money.
They are not giving themselves permission.
> If you want a degree get a degree.
If he truly wanted a degree, he'd already be doing it. It reads more like what he really wants is a break from software but is still in an economic reality of needing a job.
You're right. I just struggle with the cost because that amount of money could sustain me for some time if I lost my job.
What is the degree supposed to do for you? Just print a fake one if it's for your mom
Well, opportunities with employers is one thing.
Imagine the lab you could set up for 80k. And the projects you could do. IMHO not worth it going back to school.
Yeah I've thought about going this route as well, but on the other hand the degree opens up more opportunities. Would it be possible to get a position in the field just with home lab experience?
it's never late at all
Just thinking outside the normal options, you could try to apply for PhD programs.
They typically pay doctoral students, albeit not very much (~$30-40k), which could lessen the financial burden. With a little creativity in your application, you could certainly write a convincing case for why 8 years of software engineering is superior to an undergraduate degree.
Also, I would very strongly encourage you to take one or more intro classes on the side before you jump in full time. It’s critical that you don’t delude yourself about what you’re actually getting into before you fully commit.
Without a BS or a master’s degree it will be hard to get into a PhD program.
The simple fact of the matter is, you won't be able to make it work. The system is a disadvantaged environment. The entities you interact with in doing so are malevolent, and there is no guaranteed job even with the education if you somehow make it through (which is almost impossible).
They lie, in the most vile of ways.
It is not a matter of commitment in nearly all cases, now this may be somewhat different in the EU than in the US, but the fundamentals remain the same. The university organization is incentivized to take your money and provide nothing in return but a promise that they never intended to honor. That promise was that if you know the material you'll pass the coursework, and you just need to persist and learn.
College/Uni in most places today have their programs designed to fail you, while you pay for the privilege (in part), but mainly they target the student assistance programs most governments in socialized countries have alongside student debt fueled revenue.
They are incentivized without any means to hold accountable, to do everything that they can towards that result, and they do so in sometimes very clever and sophisticated ways, but quite evil especially in the part where they try to make you think it is your fault, and not a structural defect they arbitrarily imposed on you.
Every program intersects with certain general classes that become weedout classes, and they require that they be passed, and those classes are skewed through structure so that the odds of you completing it are astronomical towards failure, and they do not disclose these structures upfront.
Some of the ways they do this include, setting up exams where you have two that must be taken, and the exam is structured to have the questions causally dependent upon previous questions answers. They do this quite a lot in physics based paths that are required for any engineering upper coursework.
They take advantage of undisclosed means needed to calculate rounding and get the correct answer. For example significant digits.
Any engineer worth their salt would say its simple, you don't round at each step until the end; so you don't introduce rounding error that propagates. Except doing this would cause you to fail because the actual expected method of rounding on the test is not provided, and the questions are causally dependent not independent.
To pass a course under such a structure you would need to only get 1 question wrong, and that question would have to be the last one of either test (just once, not both tests). Dominoes otherwise. You get the test back and you failed, "you just didn't study hard enough", is what they'll say. "You weren't commited enough", "You just aren't engineering material", while the real reason is because they deprived you of it arbitrarily indirectly through structure.
In these cases, and other words, you have to get a perfect, or you fail, and you are grouped with others that may have taken the course multiple times (and dragged the coursework grades down through grading on a curve). This is just a single example where they used multiple component elements together towards purpose depriving you of your future while breaking the fundamental promise.
There are other ways too that they do engage in this activity as well besides these, either through structure imposed by the software used such as Pearson's autograder where they randomize the question pool per student, innocuous but how do teachers know the question bank is bad? They get a signal when multiple students voice issues. No single pool, no signal.
Or material which is tested on but is not covered, or through a simple resource drain. There are many ways to do this.
The latter is probably the most common overall, and people overlook it all the time.
The coursework requires a certain finite amount of hours, in terms of lectures, and in the homework/project preparation. They may provide some unit numerical number for scheduling but that is not reflective of the time you must spend to pass the individual section for the course.
If you are told a 4 unit course will require 12 hours of work a week because 10-12 unites is full time (40h/week), and in reality that 4 unite course requires 60 hours, and you've signed up for multiple 4 unit courses, because you need to pass within a certain expected goal time, do you think you'll be able to make the time to actually complete the coursework while maintaining academic honesty?
Any amount of required work above 40 hours a week becomes impossible to sustain over a time period beyond a few weeks. Its the number one driver of burnout, and when you get burned out you fall prey to trauma loop/torture structures that are embedded.
Many courses are at least 16 week courses. Incidentally this is also why the refund period is setup right around the 2nd or third week just before the first exam. So they can keep your money and claim it was your decision to not move forward.
Importantly, not all University and Colleges are like this, nearly all are though with few exceptions. The exceptions are in the prestigious universities where its almost impossible to get in, and the tuition is naturally much higher.
Any community college, state funded, non-private, etc, will have these issues.
I spent my 20s and 30s trying to get a degree through sheer pigheadedness and overwork, and when you can do the work and still not pass you eventually realize the system is rigged.
Where no rational or reasonable person would disagree given objective reality; leaving only the delusional and the crazy saying to the contrary, or blinded (worse, because blindness leads evil people to evil acts) by avoiding pitfalls through sheer luck, and not skill or talent.
For engineering, if it were untrue that a person who is capable of accurately doing math and reasoning well above the coursework would pass, and yet I'm a prime example where I have passed the honors versions of Math with electives in practical applications (physics) up through Abstract Algebra including Discrete Math, Vector Calculus, Differential Equations; with honors. Yet no pass.
7+ attempts culminating in 3.5 years for that class alone with different professors in different college districts, for Mechanics of Solids (covers basic kinematics, 1st college course in the physics sequence), structured as previously mentioned shows if you cannot progress in a pipeline, you cannot ever achieve what is promised, and no amount of faux due process where everyone is in it together against the student or legal action can correct it.
They stopped the bi-annual cross-district engineering contest because I won it twice in a row, perfect labs, but fails in each class. Even had a recording of one of the professor talking with another professor about how to reduce their workload, and how it was the way all NEA members were doing it, to the detriment of the students. It was dismissed as speculation despite impeachment testimony.
The colleges don't collect the metrics needed to hold the professors and academic administrators accountable. The real pass-rate for some of those classes is 0% for any first time, and 5-12% for repeats depending on the professor, skewed heavily towards what the professor decides. I know of students that slept with the professor to get the insight into how to pass so they could go on to become professionals. Just absolutely horrible.
In business its either Economics, or Communication required GEs. In engineering its the physics sequence.
The social contract at most universities today is broken, and there is no credibility, and no means to correct. According to them, the reason you don't pass is because its your fault. Gaslighting is another more appropriate word for this.
A US-centric answer because that's what I can help with:
Regardless of the school you go to, look into community colleges and associates degrees. Talk to the schools you're interested in and find out what will or will not transfer in. Some schools are very picky, so don't waste two years on a EE-related associates when they only let you keep your english and history classes. But if they do let you transfer those in, spend a year knocking out those courses at a cheap (maybe even free) community college before going to a university for the engineering program.
$80k is high, but not insane unfortunately in the US. It goes higher. Your best quality-for-cost option is probably going to be Georgia Tech. It's about $6k (plus a bit more for some lab fees and things) per semester, so you're looking at around $48-60k for a 4-5 year program. This is for in-state students. I'm not sure given the current issues in hiring how Atlanta is, but it has had a pretty good job market over the years. Move to Georgia for one year, you'll qualify for in-state tuition. I believe this tuition is also available for green card holders, but I'm not certain.
GT also has (had?) associated programs with other universities in GA, often in lower cost of living areas for similar tuition costs. You'd attend those schools and get a GT engineering degree, some required you to transfer to GT main campus after your second year. I'm not familiar with how these programs currently work or if they still exist but they did a decade ago.
Downside of GT is that they're very picky about transferring in credits for math and science courses. They're less picky about the english and history and other courses that are required. So the community college/associates degree thing only takes you so far there but you can probably knock out 6-8 courses at a community college and transfer them in.
For other state universities, like with GT, you'll want to consider moving to the state for a year or so before attending to establish residence in the state.
For private universities, you can look into them but three things: They're very picky on admittance (because so many people try to get in), their costs are much higher though they offer discounts based on your income/wealth, they're often in higher cost of living areas. Even if you get steeply discounted tuition costs, the cost of living will still give you a high annual cost for attendance.
MS/PhD - Everyone suggesting this is delusional. You cannot start these programs without a bachelors unless you've somehow demonstrated exceptional ability in the field already. From your post, you've done nothing with either mechanical or electrical engineering so these are non-starters for you.
Online - This is an option. However for engineering degrees you'll be missing out on all the hands-on work. If you're an unusually dedicated student (this is more common with older students though), you can get some of this with a home lab but it won't be the same. Get internships and coops to make up for your lack of hands-on experience. Speaking frankly, I would be very disinclined to hire a student with an online engineering degree and no internships or coops in the field (I would hire them into an internship or coop program, though). The lack of hands on experience would suggest they're all theory and no practice, that's not a useful person to hire and would make you less competitive if up against candidates from an in-person program with a decent reputation.
This is very helpful, thank you. I have an associates but not many of the credits are transferrable for EE so I put "no degree" but I should start at a community college and get more credits that can transfer for cheaper.
Also, really interesting about GT. That's definitely a good chunk of savings so I'm going to look more into that today.
I agree about the online, when I was looking at the programs I figured there was no way someplace I'd really like to work would hire me without hands on experience. The hands on experience is what sounds the most exciting to me and it's by far the best way I learn.
The UNC system and NCSU is also very affordable if you're in-state and very good. Also around $10k/year for tuition and fees. The Raleigh area (NCSU) and the broader RDU area could also be a good area for you to seek employment for 1-2 years before starting school to establish residency.
> Online - This is an option. However for engineering degrees you'll be missing out on all the hands-on work. If you're an unusually dedicated student (this is more common with older students though), you can get some of this with a home lab but it won't be the same. Get internships and coops to make up for your lack of hands-on experience. Speaking frankly, I would be very disinclined to hire a student with an online engineering degree and no internships or coops in the field (I would hire them into an internship or coop program, though). The lack of hands on experience would suggest they're all theory and no practice, that's not a useful person to hire and would make you less competitive if up against candidates from an in-person program with a decent reputation
This is wrong. There are several ABET accredited online engineering degrees. Each fulfill the rigorous standards including labs. Some schools have you buy a kit, some schools make you show up occasionally, none of the ABET accredited schools are “theory only”.
Moreover all ABET accredited schools award you a full degree. Literally no one will put “completed online” on their resume and you would never know the difference. Nor should you care - an accredited degree is equivalent to an on-campus degree in every way including rigor.
Your lack of knowledge in this area is apparent and you shouldn’t scare OP off something you clearly do not understand.
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