As a French speaker who has done quite a bit of paid translating between French and English (so an uneducated translator rather than an amateur one I guess...), I have found that a lot of translation (in non-fiction, but also sometimes in fiction) have a feel to them. You might not care or notice at a glance, but the text does feel unmistakably translated. That is a constant reminder of that fact that translation is a job that takes real skill, not just knowledge of both language.
My layman take on this is I don’t really want to read a book where “There isn't a paragraph or turn of phrase which feels like it didn't originate in English”. I want the original language to punch through a bit and be celebrated especially with idioms.
fun experience: I've read two english translations of The Glass Bead Game by Hermann Hesse. The first one honored the general vibe of its Germanic ancestor, and made it extremely hard to read. The second one had its own vibe, not uniquely English nor obviously German, and was a masterpiece.
That, and I want the translated work to reflect the original vision of the author as much as possible. I don't want cultural references changed for my country, nor do I want things changed because my country might find them offensive when the original audience didn't. In my opinion, the best compliment you can give a translation is to say that it fades into the background and lets the original shine through.
I'm not the original commenter but I think some of the personal epithets in homer just smack you with your distance from the original. "White armed andromache," "mouse god apollo", "ox-eyed hera" and of course the famous polytropos odysseus etc.
These have as much to do with ancient greek culture and maybe mindset as language per se. But even still, the choice is to elide them or let them be strange. There's no real way to carry the meaning through to english without it being striking, calling attention to the original.
I'm as big fan of "rose-fingered dawn" (forgive my lack of imagination) as the next nerd, but that always struck me as less about greek itself and more about the evolution of western language before the widespread use of writing. Little of the rhythm and rhyme can translate directly; it's more of a conceptual translation, which could just as easily be done with Mandarin or Yoruba, if one gave them a greatly reduced diction compared to contemporary speakers. English is simply poorly suited to convey how nice these epithets roll off the tongue and why they're leaned into so heavily.
Granted, the languages I speak have so little overlap in text it's actually quite difficult to imagine translating between them without a great loss of meaning and tone. And if you look at something like Tang chinese poetry (let alone something truly ancient) translation becomes a game of "which aspect of the linguistic dynamics here are worth communicating to english speakers?"
So, I'm not sure the "language" punches through so much as you see innovation in the use of english to convey virtually-impossible-to-translate tone and rhythm and wordplay—but it's still relatively contemporary and idiomatic english, or it would simply not reach most readers. Though somehow superlative translators manage more than I thought was possible.... sometimes it feels like reading shakespeare at great effort and difficulty is the closest english-only-speakers will come to understanding how constraining a language modern english is for formal poetry.
Don't you want to appreciate the book at its best, as it was appreciated by readers who read it in its original language? Why demand a compromised work? If you want to soak up untranslated idioms, you can just learn another language.
Well if I really wanted to appreciate the book at its best I’d learn the language and read the original. But that has its obvious impracticalities.
I think it’s a trade off then. I’d prefer authenticity, richness and nuance over accessibility. It is just preference. Did you prefer the modern accessible versions of Shakespeare or the originals in their Elizabethan glory?
Sorry but translated works do not mean compromised work. Don’t disrespect translators like that.
Second, Learning a language is not a binary variable. It takes decades to master a language.
Finally, Your ability to appreciate a book is both a function of the text and your ability to comprehend the text. A translated book will give you better experience than the book in a language you are unfamiliar with.
"I want the original language to punch through a bit and be celebrated especially with idioms." is asking for a compromised, incompletely translated work, no?
Not at all. Take the example of the Bible. Most people don't want a Bible with everything translated to perfectly modern English. They have expectations of the work that are better served by using some archaic/historical terms, or even leaving terms like the tetragrammaton intact.
fun fact: Gabriel Garcia Marquez said in public that he believed the english translation of "100 anos de soledad" was better than his spanish original.
I sincerely believe everyone should learn at least one other language. At least make the effort, you'll learn a lot in the process and it can be quite fun. It also enriches your understanding of your primary language once you've seen how other languages express particular concepts.
As a French speaker who has done quite a bit of paid translating between French and English (so an uneducated translator rather than an amateur one I guess...), I have found that a lot of translation (in non-fiction, but also sometimes in fiction) have a feel to them. You might not care or notice at a glance, but the text does feel unmistakably translated. That is a constant reminder of that fact that translation is a job that takes real skill, not just knowledge of both language.
My layman take on this is I don’t really want to read a book where “There isn't a paragraph or turn of phrase which feels like it didn't originate in English”. I want the original language to punch through a bit and be celebrated especially with idioms.
fun experience: I've read two english translations of The Glass Bead Game by Hermann Hesse. The first one honored the general vibe of its Germanic ancestor, and made it extremely hard to read. The second one had its own vibe, not uniquely English nor obviously German, and was a masterpiece.
That, and I want the translated work to reflect the original vision of the author as much as possible. I don't want cultural references changed for my country, nor do I want things changed because my country might find them offensive when the original audience didn't. In my opinion, the best compliment you can give a translation is to say that it fades into the background and lets the original shine through.
I'm not even sure what this means for a language to punch through in a way the author or reader might find desirable. Do you have an example?
I'm not the original commenter but I think some of the personal epithets in homer just smack you with your distance from the original. "White armed andromache," "mouse god apollo", "ox-eyed hera" and of course the famous polytropos odysseus etc.
These have as much to do with ancient greek culture and maybe mindset as language per se. But even still, the choice is to elide them or let them be strange. There's no real way to carry the meaning through to english without it being striking, calling attention to the original.
I'm as big fan of "rose-fingered dawn" (forgive my lack of imagination) as the next nerd, but that always struck me as less about greek itself and more about the evolution of western language before the widespread use of writing. Little of the rhythm and rhyme can translate directly; it's more of a conceptual translation, which could just as easily be done with Mandarin or Yoruba, if one gave them a greatly reduced diction compared to contemporary speakers. English is simply poorly suited to convey how nice these epithets roll off the tongue and why they're leaned into so heavily.
Granted, the languages I speak have so little overlap in text it's actually quite difficult to imagine translating between them without a great loss of meaning and tone. And if you look at something like Tang chinese poetry (let alone something truly ancient) translation becomes a game of "which aspect of the linguistic dynamics here are worth communicating to english speakers?"
So, I'm not sure the "language" punches through so much as you see innovation in the use of english to convey virtually-impossible-to-translate tone and rhythm and wordplay—but it's still relatively contemporary and idiomatic english, or it would simply not reach most readers. Though somehow superlative translators manage more than I thought was possible.... sometimes it feels like reading shakespeare at great effort and difficulty is the closest english-only-speakers will come to understanding how constraining a language modern english is for formal poetry.
Prose is much easier.
Don't you want to appreciate the book at its best, as it was appreciated by readers who read it in its original language? Why demand a compromised work? If you want to soak up untranslated idioms, you can just learn another language.
Well if I really wanted to appreciate the book at its best I’d learn the language and read the original. But that has its obvious impracticalities.
I think it’s a trade off then. I’d prefer authenticity, richness and nuance over accessibility. It is just preference. Did you prefer the modern accessible versions of Shakespeare or the originals in their Elizabethan glory?
Sorry but translated works do not mean compromised work. Don’t disrespect translators like that.
Second, Learning a language is not a binary variable. It takes decades to master a language.
Finally, Your ability to appreciate a book is both a function of the text and your ability to comprehend the text. A translated book will give you better experience than the book in a language you are unfamiliar with.
"I want the original language to punch through a bit and be celebrated especially with idioms." is asking for a compromised, incompletely translated work, no?
Not at all. Take the example of the Bible. Most people don't want a Bible with everything translated to perfectly modern English. They have expectations of the work that are better served by using some archaic/historical terms, or even leaving terms like the tetragrammaton intact.
fun fact: Gabriel Garcia Marquez said in public that he believed the english translation of "100 anos de soledad" was better than his spanish original.
"just learn another language."
Lol Just learn many other languages and cultural idioms that are sometimes regional and dense with meaning?
The reason to do it is precisely because it is hard.
I sincerely believe everyone should learn at least one other language. At least make the effort, you'll learn a lot in the process and it can be quite fun. It also enriches your understanding of your primary language once you've seen how other languages express particular concepts.