I second the recommendation in Sir Whinesalot's post (which I haven't fully read yet) to look at miniKanren and microKanren. I found it extremely educational to port microKanren to OCaml a few years ago, and I think the result is somewhat more comprehensible than the original Scheme, though you'll still probably have to read the paper to understand it: http://canonical.org/~kragen/sw/dev3/mukanren.ml
The most astonishing result of miniKanren is a Scheme interpreter that you can run forwards, backwards, or both. http://webyrd.net/quines/quines.pdf demonstrates using it to generate a Scheme quine, that is, a Scheme program whose output when run is itself ("miniKanren, Live and Untagged:
Quine Generation via Relational Interpreters
(Programming Pearl)", Byrd, Holk, and Friedman).
Unlike the post, I don't think Datalog is the place to look for deep insights about logic programming. Instead, it's the place to look for deep insights about databases.
I concur that SICP 4.4 is very approachable. I once took a class that had a simple Prolog assignment, I recall we were given some building plans and had to program a path solver through the building.
I thought it was a bit too easy and I wanted to dig deeper, because just doing the task left you with a taste of "this is magic, just use these spells".
I looked at how to implement Prolog and was stumped until I found that SICP section.
So I ported it to JavaScript and gave it a Prolog-like syntax and made a web page where you could run the assignment but also exposed the inner workings, and it was one of the neatest things I've ever handed in as coursework.
Insights shminsights, the database connection is where it is at :P
(Thank you for reading the article, I also implemented microKanren before and it's insane how little code it takes to get full a logic programming engine going)
I'll note there is a really shallow version of naive datalog I rather like if you're willing to compromise on syntax and nonlinear variable use.
edge = {(1,2), (2,3)}
path = set()
for i in range(10):
# path(x,y) :- edge(x,y).
path |= edge
# path(x,z) :- edge(x,y), path(y,z).
path |= {(x,z) for x,y in edge for (y1,z) in path if y == y1}
Similarly it's pretty easy to hand write SQL in a style that looks similar and gain a lot of functionality and performance from stock database engines. https://www.philipzucker.com/tiny-sqlite-datalog/
If I ever get around to writing my own at least somewhat serious Datalog engine, I definitely want to add a "translate to SQL" capability. Your work looks like the perfect inspiration, thanks!
(Also added a link to your article on what you can do with Datalog, excellent stuff, couldn't have written it better myself)
Thank you! I have been searching for something like this but for some reason couldn't find your work.
I am currently implementing a Datalog to PostgreSQL query engine at work as we want to experiment with modeling authorization rules in Datalog and then run authorization queries directly in the database. As I want to minimize the round trips to the database I use a different approach than yours and translate Datalog programs to recursive CTEs. These are a bit limited, so we have to restrict ourselves to linearly recursive Datalog programs, but for the purpose of modeling authorization rules that seems to be enough (e.g. you can still model things such as "permissions propagate from groups to group members").
My suspicion is that if you can get away with it that recursive CTEs would be more performant than doing the datalog iteration query by query. AFAIK for general rules the latter is the only option though. I had a scam in that post to do seminaive using timestamps but it was ugly. I recently came across this new feature in duckdb and was wondering if there is some way to use it to make a nice datalog https://duckdb.org/2025/05/23/using-key.html . Anything that adds expressiveness to recursive CTEs is a possibility in that direction
Love it! I was trying to use python as a dsl frontend to Z3 in a different way https://github.com/philzook58/knuckledragger/blob/ecac7a568a... (it probably has to be done syntactically rather than by overloading in order to make `if` `and` etc work). Still not sure if it is ultimately a good idea. I think it's really neat how you're abusing `,` and `:` in these examples
By the end of it, I implement a small type checker that, when you run it backwards (by giving the checker a type), it proceeds to enumerate programs that inhabit that type!
This window manager implemented in Prolog popped up here recently. It's really cool!
I jumped to it as a new daily driver in the hope that I'd learn some Prolog, and it's been quite the success, actually. The developer is really nice, and he's generously helped me with some basic questions and small PRs.
Definitely recommended. I have a Guix package for it if anyone's interested.
Any reading recommendations for high quality logic programming codebases?
The only real experience I've had with logic programming is via Brachylog[1], and I enjoyed it very much.
It's a golfing language that I used on codegolf.SE, so my experience is probably very different from that of someone who used logic programming for "real" coding. But I found the experience very pleasurable: the fun in codegolfing is largely from bending your mind in unusual ways to approach the problem (and its sub-problems) differently to solve it with terser code. Brachylog added to this by providing its own set of (what to me were) unusual approaches, thus making sure that the process was always fresh and weird enough to be fun.
I recently implemented a version of Bret Victor's Dynamicland in the browser using miniKanren, Datalog, and WebAssembly: https://deosjr.github.io/dynamicland/
Knowing how to implement a small logic programming language from scratch really feels like a superpower sometimes.
For logic in Python this project looks pretty neat, it encodes facts as typed objects and rules as functions, then allows you to run the model using a solver like soufflé: https://py-typedlogic.github.io/
I haven't found an excuse to really use it though!
Lately I’ve been dabbling with different Prolog implementations and Constraint Handling Rules which led me to CLIPS [0] (in Public Domain, but developed at NASA - sounds neat doesn’t it?)
It’s not very easy to get into, but it’s very fast on rule resolution and being pure C is easy to integrate. I’m trying to get smart code parsing using logic language and this seems promising. I’m also a Lisp nerd so that works for me :)
This thread was the final push I needed to add logic programming to Mochi https://github.com/mochilang/mochi — a small statically typed scripting language I’m building for agents and real-time data.
I gave OpenAI Codex a single prompt with a sample like:
Something I’ve wondered about Datalog is whether integers can be added to the language without losing guarantees about termination of query evaluation. It seems like as soon as we add integers with successor() or strings with concat() then we can potentially create infinite relations. Is there a way to add integers or strings (well, really basic scalar operations on integer or string values) while preserving termination guarantees?
This bit at the end of the article seems to imply it’s possible, maybe with some tricks?
> We could also add support for arithmetic and composite atoms (like lists), which introduce some challenges if we wish to stay “Turing-incomplete”.
By total coincidence, today I've been looking at Datalog implementations. The Datalog(-adjacent) Soufflé tutorial says this right near the start:
> For practical usage, Soufflé extends Datalog to make it Turing-equivalent through arithmetic functors. This results in the ability of the programmer to write programs that may never terminate.
Not without a termination checker. Take a look at Twelf, it is a logic programming language and proof assistant based on the dependently typed LF logical framework. You can use general algebraic types in relations, and in general queries can be non-terminating. However, the system has a fairly simple way of checking termination using moded relations and checking that recursive calls have structurally smaller terms in all arguments.
Twelf is quite elegant, although not as powerful as other proof assistants such as Coq. Proofs in Twelf are simply logic programs which have been checked to be total and terminating.
The syntax of Twelf is a bit different from other logic languages, but just note that every rule must have a name and that instead of writing `head :- subgoal1, subgoal2, ..., subgoaln` you write `ruleName : head <- subgoal1 <- subgoal2 <- ... <- subgoaln`.
Also note that this approach only works for top-down evaluation because it still allows you to define infinite relations (e.g. the successor relation for natural numbers is infinite). Bottom-up evaluation will fail to terminate unless restricted to only derive facts that contribute to some ground query. I don't know if anyone have looked into that problem, but that seems interesting. It is probably related to the "magic sets" transformation for optimizing bottom-up queries, but as far as I understand that does not give any hard guarantees to performance, and I don't know how it would apply to this problem.
> In this article, we study the convergence of datalog when it is interpreted over an arbitrary semiring. We consider an ordered semiring, define the semantics of a datalog program as a least fixpoint in this semiring, and study the number of steps required to reach that fixpoint, if ever. We identify algebraic properties of the semiring that correspond to certain convergence properties of datalog programs. Finally, we describe a class of ordered semirings on which one can use the semi-naïve evaluation algorithm on any datalog program.
It’s quite neat since this allows them to represent linear regression, gradient decent, shortest path (APSP) within a very similar framework as regular Datalog.
They have a whole section on the necessary condition for convergence (i.e. termination).
Hey, author here. The one time I go straight to bed after posting on hackernews is the one time I get a bunch of comments hahaha.
Yes you can add support for integers in various ways where termination is still guaranteed. The simplest trick is to distinguish predicates (like pred(X, 42)) from constraints (like X > 7). Predicates have facts, constraints do not. When checking that every variable in the head of a rule appears in the body, add the condition that it appears in a predicate in the body.
So if you have a predicate like age(X:symbol, Y:int), you can use its facts to limit the set of integers under consideration. Then, if you write:
age(X, A), A + 1 >= 18.
You'd get everyone that becomes an adult next year. Fancier solutions are also possible, for example by employing techniques from finite domain constraint solving.
> Prolog is honestly kind of jank, and I’m not talking about good vintage jank like C.
Respectfully I would encourage you to consider this comment is confusing bad Prolog with all Prolog, and you are really missing out on some elegant and powerful concepts if you believe Prolog stops here.
I would love this to be an invitation for you to reevaluate modern Prolog and see what the language is really capable of.
I'll throw you right in the deep end with Prolog Definite Clause Grammars[1] and meta-interpreters[2].
There are a few things which are very special and magical to Prolog which are quite mind expanding. I hope you enjoy the resources.
It’s all about the terms. As soon as rules can create an infinite sequence of new terms for a single relation, e.g. by addition, you’ve got non-termination.
Yes, for some kinds of operations on some kinds of data structures. The keyword/property is "monotonicity". Monotonic functions are guaranteed to terminate under fixed-point semantics.
Look into Datafun: A total functional language that generalizes Datalog. Also be sure to watch Datafun author Michael Arntzenius's Strangeloop talk.
The only production experience I have with logic programming is OPA Rego for writing security policies (not sure it's a "pure" logic language but feels like the primary paradigm).
I found it pretty interesting for that use case, although the learning curve isn't trivial for traditional devs.
I mention the intuition in passing (you have an object graph with complex bidirectional and derived relationships). Any example that would truly show the benefit would be too big to show on a blog post. Treat it like the world's smartest database, that's the key.
Another example would be something like an Entity Component System. The moment it starts getting complex (i.e., you have fancy queries and joins), then you're actually implementing a really shitty relational programming engine, and you might as well just implement Datalog instead at that point and reap the benefits.
Other kinds of search problems are probably better tackled by constraint programming instead.
I've been reading a bit about it, and it seems easier to make goal-driven backwards chaining AI from it, like the block world example. You could in theory use that for something like a video game AI (like GOAP, Goal-Oriented Action Planning, which is based on STRIPS). Whenever I read about GOAP though, they seem to have used a graphical editor to declaratively input rules rather than a logic programming language.
Note that I'm not an expert in any of this, I've just been reading about this kind of AI recently. I haven't actually done this myself.
Ish? Is only really true if what you are programming can be seen as a search for the completion of a statement?
For an easy example to consider, what would the logical program look like that described any common fractal? https://rosettacode.org/wiki/Koch_curve#Prolog shows that... it is not necessarily a win for this idea.
For the general task asked in the OP here, I would hope you could find an example in rosettacode that shows prolog gets a good implementation. Unfortunately, I get the impression some folks prefer code golf for these more so than they do "makes the problem obvious."
I’d argue that is not the most ideal Prolog solution. More like it’s simply a recursive implementation of an imperative solution.
For fractals you’ll want to be able to recognize and generate the structures. It’s a great use case for Definite Clause Grammars (DCGs). A perfect example of this would be Triska’s Dragon Curve implementation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMdiPC1ZckI
I would agree. I was actually hoping to be proven wrong with that example. I have yet to see anything other than a constraint program that looks easier to understand in logic programming, sadly.
Adding late to this, as I didn't get to actually look at this video yesterday.
I would still agree that you can do better than the examples I'm finding, but I am not entirely clear why/how the dragon curve is honestly any better here? The prolog, notably, does not draw the curve. Just being used to generate the sequence of characters that describes it. But... that is already trivial in normal code.
Actually drawing it will get you something like this: https://rosettacode.org/wiki/Dragon_curve#Prolog. Contrast that with the Logo version and you can see how the paradigm of the programming language can make a giant difference in how the code solution looks.
I was thinking of an idea very similar to this some weeks ago where you define the "rules" that structure your program and I think prolog is the one!
I'll looking into getting a taste this weekend
I love Prolog but haven't used it in ages. I should really give it a go again. Whenever I used it my brain needed some adjustment time and then switched to declarative mode. It's a really unique experience and hard to describe. It was also my first contact with immutable data.
Is implementing a Kanren and embedding it as suggested by the author really the recommended approach? Back in the day I used Sicstus mostly but tried to use SWI whenever possible (because I'm a FLOSS guy at heart). I'm asking because we went the opposite direction and used Prolog as the first language and called Java or C when needed (io, GUI). I'd describe the result as a "hot mess".
Random note: "Art of Prolog" and "Craft of Prolog" remain two of my favorite CS books to this day.
I'd be curious what the "state of the art" is these days and would love ve to hear from some folks using Prolog in the trenches.
I can't claim it's the recommended approach, just my own personal recommendation. I apologize if I made it seem like I'm some authority on the subject, I'm just some rando that dislikes SQL.
Funny enough, I made the same mistake you did back in the day. Used Prolog as the "boss" that just called back to Java as needed. My professor gave me a shitty grade because the idea was to make the opposite, a Java program that queries a Prolog database to make decisions, the Prolog part itself wasn't directly supposed to make any.
I was pissed at the time since I was showing off my Prolog skills which in a Logic Programming course I expected would give me a good grade, but that professor was 100% right. The power of logic programming is tainted when you mix it with IO and expect a specific ordering to the rule applications. Cuts are a sin.
i tried writing a tiny logic engine once after reading the SICP chapter and yeah, the syntax part was easy to mimic but the actual backtracking logic hit me harder than expected. what helped was thinking of it less like solving and more like building a lazy search tree. once that clicked, i stopped trying to force control flow and just let the tree expand. one thing i didn’t see many mention handling stateful part or side effects blows up fast. even printing during backtracking messes the whole thing. most tutorials avoid that part completely
yeah agree. keeping side effects in host lang makes life easier. tried forcing it in prolog once and instantly regretted. miniKanren with clean boundaries felt way more maintainable
Some time ago I worked on cockroachdb and I was working on implementing planning for complex online schema changes.
We really wanted a model that could convincingly handle and reasonably schedule arbitrary combinations of schema change statements that are valid in Postgres. Unlike mysql postgres offers transactional schema changes. Unlike Postgres, cockroach strives to implement online schema changes in a protocol inspired by f1 [0]. Also, you want to make sure you can safely roll back (until you’ve reached the point where you know it can’t fail, then only metadata updates are allowed).
The model we came up with was to decompose all things that can possibly change into “elements” [1] and each element had a schedule of state transitions that move the element through a sequence of states from public to absent or vice versa [2]. Each state transitions has operations [3].
Anyway, you end up wanting to define rules that say that certain element states have to be entered before other if the elements are related in some way. Or perhaps some transitions should happen at the same time. To express these rules I created a little datalog-like framework I called rel [4]. This lets you embed in go a rules engine that then you can add indexes to so that you can have sufficiently efficient implementation and know that all your lookups are indexed statically. You write the rules in Go [5]. To be honest it could be more ergonomic.
The rules are written in Go but for testing and visibility they produce a datomic-inspired format [6]. There’s a lot of rules now!
The internal implementation isn’t too far off from the search implementation presented here [7]. Here’s unify [8]. The thing has some indexes and index selection for acceleration. It also has inverted indexes for set containment queries.
It was fun to make a little embedded logic language and to have had a reason to!
Not really logic programming, but a while ago I made this, also in Python:
https://github.com/ariroffe/logics (mainly for educational purposes).
Parts of the implementation kind of reminded me of it.
I second the recommendation in Sir Whinesalot's post (which I haven't fully read yet) to look at miniKanren and microKanren. I found it extremely educational to port microKanren to OCaml a few years ago, and I think the result is somewhat more comprehensible than the original Scheme, though you'll still probably have to read the paper to understand it: http://canonical.org/~kragen/sw/dev3/mukanren.ml
The most astonishing result of miniKanren is a Scheme interpreter that you can run forwards, backwards, or both. http://webyrd.net/quines/quines.pdf demonstrates using it to generate a Scheme quine, that is, a Scheme program whose output when run is itself ("miniKanren, Live and Untagged: Quine Generation via Relational Interpreters (Programming Pearl)", Byrd, Holk, and Friedman).
§4.4 of SICP http://sarabander.github.io/sicp/html/4_002e4.xhtml also has an implementation of logic programming in Scheme which is extremely approachable.
Unlike the post, I don't think Datalog is the place to look for deep insights about logic programming. Instead, it's the place to look for deep insights about databases.
I concur that SICP 4.4 is very approachable. I once took a class that had a simple Prolog assignment, I recall we were given some building plans and had to program a path solver through the building. I thought it was a bit too easy and I wanted to dig deeper, because just doing the task left you with a taste of "this is magic, just use these spells".
I looked at how to implement Prolog and was stumped until I found that SICP section.
So I ported it to JavaScript and gave it a Prolog-like syntax and made a web page where you could run the assignment but also exposed the inner workings, and it was one of the neatest things I've ever handed in as coursework.
Insights shminsights, the database connection is where it is at :P
(Thank you for reading the article, I also implemented microKanren before and it's insane how little code it takes to get full a logic programming engine going)
Among SICP, https://t3x.org/amk/index.html
Same approach. I think an older version of the book it's freely available, or maybe the one on Scheme itself.
Scheme being homoiconic makes far easier to create quines.
Nice!
I'll note there is a really shallow version of naive datalog I rather like if you're willing to compromise on syntax and nonlinear variable use.
Similarly it's pretty easy to hand write SQL in a style that looks similar and gain a lot of functionality and performance from stock database engines. https://www.philipzucker.com/tiny-sqlite-datalog/I wrote a small datalog from the Z3 AST to sqlite recently along these lines https://github.com/philzook58/knuckledragger/blob/main/kdrag...
If I ever get around to writing my own at least somewhat serious Datalog engine, I definitely want to add a "translate to SQL" capability. Your work looks like the perfect inspiration, thanks!
(Also added a link to your article on what you can do with Datalog, excellent stuff, couldn't have written it better myself)
Thanks! I wouldn't so much say it was written so much as it was vomited out in a year of enthusiasm, but I'm glad it has some value.
Thank you! I have been searching for something like this but for some reason couldn't find your work.
I am currently implementing a Datalog to PostgreSQL query engine at work as we want to experiment with modeling authorization rules in Datalog and then run authorization queries directly in the database. As I want to minimize the round trips to the database I use a different approach than yours and translate Datalog programs to recursive CTEs. These are a bit limited, so we have to restrict ourselves to linearly recursive Datalog programs, but for the purpose of modeling authorization rules that seems to be enough (e.g. you can still model things such as "permissions propagate from groups to group members").
My suspicion is that if you can get away with it that recursive CTEs would be more performant than doing the datalog iteration query by query. AFAIK for general rules the latter is the only option though. I had a scam in that post to do seminaive using timestamps but it was ugly. I recently came across this new feature in duckdb and was wondering if there is some way to use it to make a nice datalog https://duckdb.org/2025/05/23/using-key.html . Anything that adds expressiveness to recursive CTEs is a possibility in that direction
What does CTE stand for, and how do I research it ?
Common Table Expression, a SQL concept that enables more expressive programming with SQL queries. They are introduced using WITH ...
Or you can use Python AST + Z3 :) Here is a toy implementation:
https://github.com/true-grue/python-dsls/blob/main/datalog/d...
Love it! I was trying to use python as a dsl frontend to Z3 in a different way https://github.com/philzook58/knuckledragger/blob/ecac7a568a... (it probably has to be done syntactically rather than by overloading in order to make `if` `and` etc work). Still not sure if it is ultimately a good idea. I think it's really neat how you're abusing `,` and `:` in these examples
This requires some discrete math knowledge?
That's exciting!
I did a detailed write-up of implementing miniKanren here:
https://codeberg.org/ashton314/microKanren
By the end of it, I implement a small type checker that, when you run it backwards (by giving the checker a type), it proceeds to enumerate programs that inhabit that type!
Isn't that amazing‽ I wonder if you could guide its search with an LLM...
There is some research work I’m aware of that’s trying to make type-safe LLM generation a thing.
Is that research publically available, and where ?
https://github.com/Seeker04/plwm
This window manager implemented in Prolog popped up here recently. It's really cool!
I jumped to it as a new daily driver in the hope that I'd learn some Prolog, and it's been quite the success, actually. The developer is really nice, and he's generously helped me with some basic questions and small PRs.
Definitely recommended. I have a Guix package for it if anyone's interested.
Any reading recommendations for high quality logic programming codebases?
You should publish the Guix package somewhere.
The only real experience I've had with logic programming is via Brachylog[1], and I enjoyed it very much.
It's a golfing language that I used on codegolf.SE, so my experience is probably very different from that of someone who used logic programming for "real" coding. But I found the experience very pleasurable: the fun in codegolfing is largely from bending your mind in unusual ways to approach the problem (and its sub-problems) differently to solve it with terser code. Brachylog added to this by providing its own set of (what to me were) unusual approaches, thus making sure that the process was always fresh and weird enough to be fun.
[1] https://github.com/JCumin/Brachylog/wiki
I recently implemented a version of Bret Victor's Dynamicland in the browser using miniKanren, Datalog, and WebAssembly: https://deosjr.github.io/dynamicland/
Knowing how to implement a small logic programming language from scratch really feels like a superpower sometimes.
For logic in Python this project looks pretty neat, it encodes facts as typed objects and rules as functions, then allows you to run the model using a solver like soufflé: https://py-typedlogic.github.io/
I haven't found an excuse to really use it though!
Lately I’ve been dabbling with different Prolog implementations and Constraint Handling Rules which led me to CLIPS [0] (in Public Domain, but developed at NASA - sounds neat doesn’t it?)
It’s not very easy to get into, but it’s very fast on rule resolution and being pure C is easy to integrate. I’m trying to get smart code parsing using logic language and this seems promising. I’m also a Lisp nerd so that works for me :)
[0]: https://www.clipsrules.net/
https://ryjo.codes/ has done a lot of work with it, and made a course!
Whoa, awesome! Thanks for the link.
This thread was the final push I needed to add logic programming to Mochi https://github.com/mochilang/mochi — a small statically typed scripting language I’m building for agents and real-time data.
I gave OpenAI Codex a single prompt with a sample like:
And it generated a working Datalog engine in Go with: Full thinking process: https://chatgpt.com/s/cd_684d3e3c59c08191b20c49ad97b66e01Total implementation was ~250 LOC. Genuinely amazed how effective the LLM was at helping bootstrap a real logic layer in one go.
The PR is here https://github.com/mochilang/mochi/pull/616
Something I’ve wondered about Datalog is whether integers can be added to the language without losing guarantees about termination of query evaluation. It seems like as soon as we add integers with successor() or strings with concat() then we can potentially create infinite relations. Is there a way to add integers or strings (well, really basic scalar operations on integer or string values) while preserving termination guarantees?
This bit at the end of the article seems to imply it’s possible, maybe with some tricks?
> We could also add support for arithmetic and composite atoms (like lists), which introduce some challenges if we wish to stay “Turing-incomplete”.
By total coincidence, today I've been looking at Datalog implementations. The Datalog(-adjacent) Soufflé tutorial says this right near the start:
> For practical usage, Soufflé extends Datalog to make it Turing-equivalent through arithmetic functors. This results in the ability of the programmer to write programs that may never terminate.
https://souffle-lang.github.io/tutorial
Not without a termination checker. Take a look at Twelf, it is a logic programming language and proof assistant based on the dependently typed LF logical framework. You can use general algebraic types in relations, and in general queries can be non-terminating. However, the system has a fairly simple way of checking termination using moded relations and checking that recursive calls have structurally smaller terms in all arguments.
Twelf is quite elegant, although not as powerful as other proof assistants such as Coq. Proofs in Twelf are simply logic programs which have been checked to be total and terminating.
Edit: Here's a link to a short page in the manual which shows how termination checking works: https://twelf.org/wiki/percent-terminates/
The syntax of Twelf is a bit different from other logic languages, but just note that every rule must have a name and that instead of writing `head :- subgoal1, subgoal2, ..., subgoaln` you write `ruleName : head <- subgoal1 <- subgoal2 <- ... <- subgoaln`.
Also note that this approach only works for top-down evaluation because it still allows you to define infinite relations (e.g. the successor relation for natural numbers is infinite). Bottom-up evaluation will fail to terminate unless restricted to only derive facts that contribute to some ground query. I don't know if anyone have looked into that problem, but that seems interesting. It is probably related to the "magic sets" transformation for optimizing bottom-up queries, but as far as I understand that does not give any hard guarantees to performance, and I don't know how it would apply to this problem.
Here’s a quite recent interesting paper about this: https://dl.acm.org/doi/abs/10.1145/3643027
> In this article, we study the convergence of datalog when it is interpreted over an arbitrary semiring. We consider an ordered semiring, define the semantics of a datalog program as a least fixpoint in this semiring, and study the number of steps required to reach that fixpoint, if ever. We identify algebraic properties of the semiring that correspond to certain convergence properties of datalog programs. Finally, we describe a class of ordered semirings on which one can use the semi-naïve evaluation algorithm on any datalog program.
It’s quite neat since this allows them to represent linear regression, gradient decent, shortest path (APSP) within a very similar framework as regular Datalog.
They have a whole section on the necessary condition for convergence (i.e. termination).
Hey, author here. The one time I go straight to bed after posting on hackernews is the one time I get a bunch of comments hahaha.
Yes you can add support for integers in various ways where termination is still guaranteed. The simplest trick is to distinguish predicates (like pred(X, 42)) from constraints (like X > 7). Predicates have facts, constraints do not. When checking that every variable in the head of a rule appears in the body, add the condition that it appears in a predicate in the body.
So if you have a predicate like age(X:symbol, Y:int), you can use its facts to limit the set of integers under consideration. Then, if you write:
age(X, A), A + 1 >= 18.
You'd get everyone that becomes an adult next year. Fancier solutions are also possible, for example by employing techniques from finite domain constraint solving.
> Prolog is honestly kind of jank, and I’m not talking about good vintage jank like C.
Respectfully I would encourage you to consider this comment is confusing bad Prolog with all Prolog, and you are really missing out on some elegant and powerful concepts if you believe Prolog stops here.
I would love this to be an invitation for you to reevaluate modern Prolog and see what the language is really capable of.
I'll throw you right in the deep end with Prolog Definite Clause Grammars[1] and meta-interpreters[2].
There are a few things which are very special and magical to Prolog which are quite mind expanding. I hope you enjoy the resources.
[1]: https://youtu.be/CvLsVfq6cks
[2]: https://youtu.be/nmBkU-l1zyc
Thanks, this is really helpful! And great article.
It’s all about the terms. As soon as rules can create an infinite sequence of new terms for a single relation, e.g. by addition, you’ve got non-termination.
Yes, for some kinds of operations on some kinds of data structures. The keyword/property is "monotonicity". Monotonic functions are guaranteed to terminate under fixed-point semantics.
Look into Datafun: A total functional language that generalizes Datalog. Also be sure to watch Datafun author Michael Arntzenius's Strangeloop talk.
https://www.rntz.net/datafun/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gC295d3V9gE
I think it would be really impactful to start with a problem and describe how logic programming solves that problem better than the other paradigms.
The only production experience I have with logic programming is OPA Rego for writing security policies (not sure it's a "pure" logic language but feels like the primary paradigm).
I found it pretty interesting for that use case, although the learning curve isn't trivial for traditional devs.
https://www.openpolicyagent.org/
I mention the intuition in passing (you have an object graph with complex bidirectional and derived relationships). Any example that would truly show the benefit would be too big to show on a blog post. Treat it like the world's smartest database, that's the key.
Another example would be something like an Entity Component System. The moment it starts getting complex (i.e., you have fancy queries and joins), then you're actually implementing a really shitty relational programming engine, and you might as well just implement Datalog instead at that point and reap the benefits.
Other kinds of search problems are probably better tackled by constraint programming instead.
I've been reading a bit about it, and it seems easier to make goal-driven backwards chaining AI from it, like the block world example. You could in theory use that for something like a video game AI (like GOAP, Goal-Oriented Action Planning, which is based on STRIPS). Whenever I read about GOAP though, they seem to have used a graphical editor to declaratively input rules rather than a logic programming language.
Note that I'm not an expert in any of this, I've just been reading about this kind of AI recently. I haven't actually done this myself.
Generally speaking, the advantage of logic programming is that it's (more) declarative: you describe the problem and it derives a solution.
Ish? Is only really true if what you are programming can be seen as a search for the completion of a statement?
For an easy example to consider, what would the logical program look like that described any common fractal? https://rosettacode.org/wiki/Koch_curve#Prolog shows that... it is not necessarily a win for this idea.
For the general task asked in the OP here, I would hope you could find an example in rosettacode that shows prolog gets a good implementation. Unfortunately, I get the impression some folks prefer code golf for these more so than they do "makes the problem obvious."
I’d argue that is not the most ideal Prolog solution. More like it’s simply a recursive implementation of an imperative solution.
For fractals you’ll want to be able to recognize and generate the structures. It’s a great use case for Definite Clause Grammars (DCGs). A perfect example of this would be Triska’s Dragon Curve implementation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMdiPC1ZckI
I would agree. I was actually hoping to be proven wrong with that example. I have yet to see anything other than a constraint program that looks easier to understand in logic programming, sadly.
Adding late to this, as I didn't get to actually look at this video yesterday.
I would still agree that you can do better than the examples I'm finding, but I am not entirely clear why/how the dragon curve is honestly any better here? The prolog, notably, does not draw the curve. Just being used to generate the sequence of characters that describes it. But... that is already trivial in normal code.
Actually drawing it will get you something like this: https://rosettacode.org/wiki/Dragon_curve#Prolog. Contrast that with the Logo version and you can see how the paradigm of the programming language can make a giant difference in how the code solution looks.
Microkanren et al are nice! But it is becoming sort of a mono-culture where other approaches get ignored.
Before Microkanren, the rite of passage for logic programming was to build a Prolog using Warren's Abstract Machine (WAM).
https://direct.mit.edu/books/monograph/4253/Warren-s-Abstrac...
Well, the blog post has a Datalog implementation, so there is that.
I was thinking of an idea very similar to this some weeks ago where you define the "rules" that structure your program and I think prolog is the one! I'll looking into getting a taste this weekend
I love Prolog but haven't used it in ages. I should really give it a go again. Whenever I used it my brain needed some adjustment time and then switched to declarative mode. It's a really unique experience and hard to describe. It was also my first contact with immutable data.
Is implementing a Kanren and embedding it as suggested by the author really the recommended approach? Back in the day I used Sicstus mostly but tried to use SWI whenever possible (because I'm a FLOSS guy at heart). I'm asking because we went the opposite direction and used Prolog as the first language and called Java or C when needed (io, GUI). I'd describe the result as a "hot mess".
Random note: "Art of Prolog" and "Craft of Prolog" remain two of my favorite CS books to this day.
I'd be curious what the "state of the art" is these days and would love ve to hear from some folks using Prolog in the trenches.
I can't claim it's the recommended approach, just my own personal recommendation. I apologize if I made it seem like I'm some authority on the subject, I'm just some rando that dislikes SQL.
Funny enough, I made the same mistake you did back in the day. Used Prolog as the "boss" that just called back to Java as needed. My professor gave me a shitty grade because the idea was to make the opposite, a Java program that queries a Prolog database to make decisions, the Prolog part itself wasn't directly supposed to make any.
I was pissed at the time since I was showing off my Prolog skills which in a Logic Programming course I expected would give me a good grade, but that professor was 100% right. The power of logic programming is tainted when you mix it with IO and expect a specific ordering to the rule applications. Cuts are a sin.
Prolog seems cursed to be forgotten and re-discovered in a never ending cycle.
i tried writing a tiny logic engine once after reading the SICP chapter and yeah, the syntax part was easy to mimic but the actual backtracking logic hit me harder than expected. what helped was thinking of it less like solving and more like building a lazy search tree. once that clicked, i stopped trying to force control flow and just let the tree expand. one thing i didn’t see many mention handling stateful part or side effects blows up fast. even printing during backtracking messes the whole thing. most tutorials avoid that part completely
That's one of the reasons I tell people to avoid Prolog. Leave the side effects to the host language and embed either a miniKanren or Datalog engine.
yeah agree. keeping side effects in host lang makes life easier. tried forcing it in prolog once and instantly regretted. miniKanren with clean boundaries felt way more maintainable
Some time ago I worked on cockroachdb and I was working on implementing planning for complex online schema changes.
We really wanted a model that could convincingly handle and reasonably schedule arbitrary combinations of schema change statements that are valid in Postgres. Unlike mysql postgres offers transactional schema changes. Unlike Postgres, cockroach strives to implement online schema changes in a protocol inspired by f1 [0]. Also, you want to make sure you can safely roll back (until you’ve reached the point where you know it can’t fail, then only metadata updates are allowed).
The model we came up with was to decompose all things that can possibly change into “elements” [1] and each element had a schedule of state transitions that move the element through a sequence of states from public to absent or vice versa [2]. Each state transitions has operations [3].
Anyway, you end up wanting to define rules that say that certain element states have to be entered before other if the elements are related in some way. Or perhaps some transitions should happen at the same time. To express these rules I created a little datalog-like framework I called rel [4]. This lets you embed in go a rules engine that then you can add indexes to so that you can have sufficiently efficient implementation and know that all your lookups are indexed statically. You write the rules in Go [5]. To be honest it could be more ergonomic.
The rules are written in Go but for testing and visibility they produce a datomic-inspired format [6]. There’s a lot of rules now!
The internal implementation isn’t too far off from the search implementation presented here [7]. Here’s unify [8]. The thing has some indexes and index selection for acceleration. It also has inverted indexes for set containment queries.
It was fun to make a little embedded logic language and to have had a reason to!
0: https://static.googleusercontent.com/media/research.google.c... 1: https://github.com/cockroachdb/cockroach/blob/f48b3438a296aa... 2: https://github.com/cockroachdb/cockroach/blob/f48b3438a296aa... 3: https://github.com/cockroachdb/cockroach/blob/f48b3438a296aa... 4: https://github.com/cockroachdb/cockroach/blob/f48b3438a296aa... 5: https://github.com/cockroachdb/cockroach/blob/f48b3438a296aa... 6: https://github.com/cockroachdb/cockroach/blob/master/pkg/sql... 7: https://github.com/cockroachdb/cockroach/blob/f48b3438a296aa... 8: https://github.com/cockroachdb/cockroach/blob/f48b3438a296aa...
Or more accurately, a super simple Datalog implementation.
Not really logic programming, but a while ago I made this, also in Python: https://github.com/ariroffe/logics (mainly for educational purposes). Parts of the implementation kind of reminded me of it.