Speed Queen is generally considered one of the best you can get. They don’t really advertise, because they don’t need to.
I just got a washer/dryer within the last year and they weren’t smart. They even sell their really old design without a locking lid still (which is quite a nice thing if you don’t have kids or pets to worry about).
I got the front loader, because I had to (house design stuff I can’t work around). While it has a digital input, it’s more old school. Their top loaders still have mechanical knobs.
No motel microwave is “smart”. No commercial kitchen is going to have the line cooks installing “apps”.
BUT BE AWARE that commercial items have different requirements and tradeoffs! You need to research them before buying. Some may matter to you, some may be a safety issue, some may be technically or actually illegal to run at home.
For example, commercial ovens may look similar to your home oven, but have zero insulation anywhere and NOT be designed to be installed next to anything except solid metal.
But commercial and used commercial can be great. You can still get zero smarts devices, like microwaves with literally no computers in them, just a timer dial.
You can also import many from the USA, but you’d have to check power requirements very carefully. Commercial equipment is often available in 240v in the USA but it may not be self-switching.
But be aware that commercial dishwashers work - but even if you don’t get a massive Hobart machine that they’re designed for speed, not energy efficiency or silent operation.
> but have zero insulation anywhere and NOT be designed to be installed next to anything except solid metal.
This seems odd, it seems intuitive that it would reduce running costs to have some insulation? To lower energy costs by not having the oven work harder to maintain a given temperature.
Is the ability to shed heat a priority? That is, being able to cook item A at 250 C and then cook item B at 150 C in rapid succession.
In the restaurant kitchens I've been to (small sample size), it was HOT. We're talking AC running on full blast, and it's still very sauna-like.
I understand that the lack of insulation might be the cause of this, at least partially. But since it's already typically very hot in the kitchen, I can see why makers won't add external insulation: the unit passively losing heat might not be a real issue in production.
(Re: ability to shed heat: I know confectioners need high level of precision in temps, the rest of the industry likely doesn't have this as a hard requirement.)
Most appliances like washing machines are "smart-optional" at most, and can just be used as a regular appliance if you don't want all the "smart" stuff. There are also many without any "smart" features. It's different for TVs and such, but for household appliances all of this is not really a big deal.
I know you're intending to be helpful with your response, but I think it can be a bit condescending to respond to someone who says they need a non-smart appliance by telling them a smart one will do.
We're probably all familiar with the XY problem, but I think we must also beware the XY problem-problem, where a posed problem is inappropriately identified as an XY problem and a good question is not given a good answer. (See also: much of Stack Overflow)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_problem
Every feature that is added, even if you don't use them, is another piece of tech that can break and potentially be non-serviceable. I've several times now had to repair or replace major appliances in the first 3-5 years of use because of logic boards and such that were unrelated to the core functionality of the appliances.
Granted, not everyone wants or cares to minimize waste when it comes to objects of convenience, but plenty of folks want the option... and yes, I do realize I sound like "your father who bought fancy cars with manual windows because it's one less thing that can break." :) My own father was that kind of person.
My problem with "smart optional" devices is that even in that case, the "smart" parts can have knock-on effects.
For example, the AC unit I bought, resets any settings changes from the front panel if you power cycle it, unless you configure them in the web interface.
My new microwave with a "child safety" lock has a button combination you can use to disable the lock, but it forgets that setting on losing power, so you have to perpetually keep the sequence needed around if you ever have brownouts or blackouts.
And, of course, if you just ignore it, it might be waiting for someone to come by with the right bluetooth or 802.11 network or s/t and use any "optional features" however they like...
The fact that it might query a firmware update if you’re not careful to never allow it to communicate outward is enough of a risk. I don’t want my appliances querying firmware updates that might brick the unit or give engineers excuses too not get it right the first time. I’ve seen what product owners do when there are known bugs but they want to ship because the user can just update later.
There is functionality hidden in the app, so that the manufacturer can save a dime and a half on some buttons. Unfortunately, this line has already been crossed.
The functionality that is hidden: Rinse, Machine Care (self-cleaning), HalfLoad, Eco and Delay start.
Jeff bought that dishwasher based on its Consumer Reports ratings. They must have taken his criticism into account, because it is now far from the top rated dishwasher and includes a disclosure about requiring an app.
I trust Consumer Reports and would never buy an appliance without consulting them, but it doesn't surprise me that they're a little conservative and wouldn't realize they need to call this stuff out initially.
I believe Jeff pointed out that he got the 2025 model, while the tested model was a 2024 model. So they may have retestet with the new model and it now scores worse.
The interesting bit would be to have the reaction from Bosch. They "updated" their design and the review score went down.
It's still got a pretty good score, so it probably hasn't yet been added to the scoring criteria. OTOH, it's got the caveat and it's at the bottom of the list of recommendations, so it feels like some non-numerical weighting has been applied. I hope they do add it to the scoring criteria soon.
In the meantime "wifi" is a feature that can be filtered on in their sorting tool.
The problem is not that you have more functionality in the app. It's that all the evil people that have designed (not implemented, the drones that write the code rarely have the right to express opinion or provide common sense in big corporate) this idiocy require you to have online account with them, for reasons unknown. This functionality should be local. Bluetooth works fine.
How on earth does that work in an Airbnb? Or like, even my house guests? Do my parents and housekeeper and who knows who else all need to be set up with the Bosch app to be able to function in my kitchen?
It barely works if you're two adults in a home. Half of all the smart appliances can only be linked to one device. Sorry honey, I couldn't do the dishes or the laundry, the machines are linked to your Bosch account.
I've got one of these Boschs, and it is bullshit ... but you "only" need the app to run some of the cycle types, so it's only a problem sometimes. The delicate cycle being app limited would be a problem if we used that more often.
So is being obligated to use remote control to operate your TV, but here we are. The only way out of this bind is to obligate manufacturers for different classes of appliances to comply with some standards about local functionality. Which I approve.
It's somewhat the same problem because its possible to lose manufacturer remotes.
And if the TV decided to implement weird, non-standard control signals, it can be a pain to access certain functionality with universal remotes (e.g. settings).
Different path to get there, but same end result: not being able to access functionality without going through an annoying manufacturer-specific route.
Yes, it's not like they come with a cell phone modem like smart cars do. You can just choose to not download the app and not give it the wifi password.
Is this so hard in your locale? When I browse the top three recommended washing machines on a popular Dutch appliances seller, only the third (Samsung) actually has some app functionality. The other two (Bosch, AEG) are just normal washing machines.
(The division there is currently 64 with app, 43 without. The models without appear to score higher in the reviews.)
Interesting, I was sure they would all have some kind of wifi these days. I think my parents have the Bosch, it's pretty good. I just find it weird that they have two input methods, the turning wheel and tip touch buttons that don't really respond well.
Mind you, I have 'regular' buttons that don't respond well either.
Coolblue has good service and installers and stuff, but I find they have a (probably intentionally) limited range of stuff they sell. But that's fine, I really have no interest in e.g. the bottom of the price range for appliances.
Our stove insists it can't implement several advertised features unless we let it at our wifi and "enable" the features. Fukdat, a stove does not need to be a network citizen, it needs to bake cookies. For me.
Then again, maybe I could hack it to host a Mastodon instance or run Doom.
I feel you. The moment I see a "smart" product, I walk away. With that in mind, I stick to the most basic of home appliances. Given that you are in the EU, you might wanna consider something like Gorenje - a Slovenian company, they make plenty of "smart" appliances but they also offer the good old analogue stuff. All my appliances at home are from them, nothing smart, nothing wifi connected, awesome build quality, good looking, reliable and an awesome value for money. Oven, fridge and washing machine combined set me back less than 2k. The downside in my case was that the ones I got were not the most efficient in terms of electricity but I can live with that.
Try searching Reddit, I just found some lists. I’ve given up and instead just don’t allow things on my network. My “smart” TV begs me to see the network but I just use a Roku instead. I fear it’s come to this where we have to circumvent our own devices desperate need for connectivity.
Hope there is no programmed issue built in. I have had devices stop working after some time saying it's been more than X years since I last updated the software and it then refuses to run. :-(
30 or more years ago I was at a law firm that had some specialized software to pump out the paperwork for residential mortgages. Every so often it would throw an error and refuse to run, which made it really popular with the paralegals who were trying to churn out a dozen mortgages a day. I called the software company. "Oh, that's not a real error, we just prefer that customers check in every so often." I called them many foul names and found out how to disable that shit. Another company sold us perverted Xerox 635 daisywheel printers that were EPROM'd to only work with their particular shitty app-specific typewheels. I had a buddy with an EEPROM burner, and we had several unperverted 635s from which we could draw clean copies. We burned new chips for every printer in the building (65 of them). And back then there wasn't shit the vendor could do. Overnight we repurposed the printers for use with regular PCs and our cost for new METAL xerox typewheels was far less.
For the moment my big ass LG oled TV still works fine without agreeing to it selling my soul and listening in on my living room, but if it ever does cause issues I'll look into jailbreaking it and hooking up an external media player.
Why not go for a semi-automatic washing machine? It's a basic, no-frills machine, not even a digital display. Everything operates with simple knobs and mechanical timers (non-electronic). It just gets the job done. It has separate sections for washing and drying.
Although it won’t dry clothes completely, it’s a great non-smart option. In the US, you can get one for as low as $135. For Ex: https://amzn.to/3GDvpXg
True, but this is the most basic, non-smart machine. It runs on simple wiring and manual controls, but it gets the job done, especially when it comes to washing. Drying isn’t perfect, and yes, it requires some effort, but it’s the cheapest machine you can get.
If it's a Maytag, Whirlpool or another older super-reliable machine then you might consider fixing it yourself (if you're handy with tools) or finding someone to fix it. If you want to replace it with a good washer, then know that there are shops who sell rebuilt/refurbished models of the most trustworthy appliances.
Meanwhile for DIY-ers, parts are usually available and there are YouTube videos on most major models (telling you which models are best, how to fix/maintain them, how to run them, etc.).
We have a Whirlpool Ultimate Care II that is about 50 years old and has been thru 4 generations of people. I've worked on it twice: once to replace a switch and the second time to replace some ratchet gears. Repairmen have also worked on it in my absence. Like most of the older washers, it's designed to be easy to dismantle and repair. It washes more gently than any other washer I've seen: consequently our clothes last longer. Wish the software I use was as easy to fix.
I replaced the pulley drum belt with a kit and the squeaky roller wheels for my whirlpool dryer.
That thing is a tank and so easy to service!
I’m just scared it will fail catastrophically some day and the gas burner will ignite the garage. Do you know how safe an old gas burning whirlpool dryer is compared to modern gas dryers? The whirlpool can get super hot and basically bake my clothes if I want.
I have a washing machine without wifi fortunately. It has this steam function where you can set it to steam your clothing regularly at the end of the wash cycle, in case you forget to take them out in time.
Half the time if i turn that on it takes the button press to stop but does not unlock the door :)
I have to run an extra dry cycle manually to get at my laundry. Which kind of defeats the point of the 'fire and forget' option.
"Smart" and "Intelligent" could have multiple meanings here. Sometimes a washer that uses a dirt sensor is labeled smart. In US I've found anything above the lowest end has wifi capability, unfortunately. My $100 printer had some suspicious notes about sending data to google (!!!). I never connect any of these gadgets to wifi.
In the US, a dishwasher costs ~$900 with install and lasts ~10 years (not even considering electricity costs). Hiring a disabled person legally at $1.75 for half an hour per week costs the same $910 over 10 years. Same price, but one supports a machine; the other supports a human being. Why fund metal and smart Wi-Fi appliances when you can empower someone’s life?
> Why fund metal and smart Wi-Fi appliances when you can empower someone’s life?
Because it's illegal to pay so little, and nobody would do it for that price anyway, except for maybe your own children, who do it for that price plus the negative incidence of an asswhooping. If it were affordable for common people to have servants or slaves, they totally would. Machinery priced slaves out of existence. The next frontier is for value-added centralized industrial manufacturing to be priced out by distributed manufacturing and recycling, not a return to the days of domestic servitude.
That's hilarious, I never thought to actually do the numbers. We've gotten so bad at manufacturing and trading it's likely cheaper and possibly easier to hire someone to do the thing.
I recently replaced a dishwasher, and while the old one just had a cable to plug in, the new one needed some power box, so I had to mount that, and the existing holes for cables and hoses weren't big enough, so I needed to enlarge those. Not a big problem for me, I'm handy, but a lot of people aren't comfortable making holes in things. Physically moving the machines wasn't that hard, but I have plenty of dollies and what not.
I was lucky and someone was interested in the old one to try to fix it, or to swap parts and make their current one look nicer, so I didn't have to haul the other one away to the dump, but that's something the installer will typically do.
Ireland is small, you basically have Curry's or DID to choose from as a retail vendor. Just go on their websites and find a cheap model without smarts. The more expensive models don't wash any cleaner I reckon and it's often them who come with smarts baked in.
Somewhat. A lot of those recommendations seem to be of the type, “I bought the most expensive brand possible and it works great! No complaints after seven days of ownership”
Also frustrating when it might be, “Look at this 30 year old Craftsmen wrench.” Unfortunately, that 30 year old version is no longer made, as production has been MBAed and quality is now an afterthought because they can still sell the logo for a premium price.
I always found the latter to be a huge problem with that sub. So much stuff like "these products from X are the greatest thing ever...but that brand is terrible now, don't buy from them"
Turns out, BIFL products are only recognized as such in hindsight, which is often after enshittification hits.
I've found a good source of recommendations can be friends and family who bought something similar 3-4 years ago. If something is going to go catastrophically wrong, it probably will have happened by then, and it's still possible that the same product is available.
For the curious, I checked some prices on the maytags - a little less than 3,000 USD for the front loader, the Speed Queen commercial ones were cheaper.
I think because you're a new account and you're posting a lot of links, your posts are likely getting hidden. I've vouched for them where I can and hopefully other people with showdead on will see them and vouch for them too.
Making a note of Samsung; I've had the worst time looking for large, dumb monitors. I've returned about 4 now due to the obnoxious boot times, incompatibility, menu trees, ads(!), etc.
I bought Whirlpool washer/dryer combo, washer is top load, both non-smart, I think it was like $600ish for both from HomeDepot. "Smart" really isn't as innovative as like improving product longevity, reducing lint clog, safety, etc. I used a smart fridge once, it won't dispense water without updating to the latest firmware. I was just glad it wasn't in my house.
Consumer Reports has "WiFi" as a feature column in its product listings for washing mashines and dishwashers. So you can filter or sort on that column.
You probably have to subscribe to be able to do so, but I'd never buy a major appliance without reading the Consumer Reports rating.
I’ve got an Electrolux (AEG) since 2015 and it recently needed its heating element replaced because I never bothered to use any water softeners. It took the serviceman 10 minutes and cost less than 100 euros.
I also have friends with Samsung washing machines. Let’s just say get an AEG.
My Samsung dryer needed a heating element replaced. It cost €450 (~80% of the original purchase price) and involved replacing basically half the machine. I’ll be actively avoiding Samsung in the future.
This is why you’ll have to pry my 20 year old gas burning whirlpool dryer from my dead hands.
I replace a squeaky drum wheel ~$20 and a drum pulley belt kit ~$40 and this dryer is flawless. It can bake my towels if I want or run low heat for delicates.
My parents Samsung is constantly on the fritz and their home warranty company keeps replacing parts or the whole unit over the years.
I've replaced two heating elements in my ~9 year old Samsung dryer, I think the heating elements were less than 50 USD. I did the labor myself so I don't know how much that would have been - you do have to take the dryer apart, but it doesn't take very long if you have experience, 15-20 minutes or less.
I would not recommend Samsung - I've had to take that dryer apart more than 10 times to replace/fix things, I can't imagine how much it would have cost me if I couldn't do it myself. The only plus there is now I can literally break it down and put it back together very quickly when I need to fix it.
The heating elements were buried deep in the machine and would have involved many hours of labour to take it apart; it took long enough to strip it down to the point where I realised how complex it was going to be to get any further. Machine was bought in late 2021, but was unfortunately out of guarantee by a couple of months when it broke. I’m happy to tear stuff down (spent yesterday unsticking the fan on a vacuum cleaner) but that was too much for me.
Paid to get the entire bottom half of the inside of the machine replaced. It was that, or spending weeks trying to debug the problem with non-existant parts, or buy a new one.
I have an Electrolux whose heating element gave out after six months. Fortunately well within the warranty period; repair guy mentioned that it was a known issue. Eight years later it's still going strong, so...
Any product that doesn't work without WiFi, where that product class (e.g. "washing machine") existed before the invention of WiFi, I would just return as defective.
One option is buying second-hand. Seniors are likely to have a goldmine of sturdy, repairable, dumb appliances just sitting at home like it's no big deal.
BTW, if you want to partially "smartify" your nice, dumb machine, using a Tasmota-enabled power socket which is capable of measuring the current in order to create yourself a notification system for when the washing machine is done, or when the microwave stopped cooking, can be a good solution.
It's easy finding dumb washing machines. I'd bet that most of the current washing machines on the market are dumb.
Repair your current device? If that is really not possible get a "smart" one and dumb it down - don't allow any network access or - if it insists on being connected or you want to get some use out of its "smart" functions - put it on a separate network which has no access to the internet. Of and when I'm "forced" to get a new "smart" piece of equipment this is what I do if I can not change the firmware on the thing to something under my own control. I never let any "smart" device access the internet because of a host of reasons ranging from security and privacy to the risks of the thing "upgrading" itself without my approval.
fix the old stuff.
while you are fixing it, you can disable all the pre-smart, "features", further fixing it
impact driver, and a few wrenches, if it's realy
broken, then keep going till its easy to tote pieces, and go find a used one someone is just replacing in an "upgrade"
older heavy duty commercial stuff is sought after now....it was designed to be fixed.
personaly, I can fix, or modify,most stuff, and scratch build any imaginable simple machine, mostly for shop or agricultural use, but venture into marine and aviation parts and systems.
a lot of (older) domestic and comercial stuff can be figured out just useing visual diagnosis and following the logic of the circuits, which is often usefull in detrmining that the broken part is a "feature" and can just be bypassed, essentialy backdating the applience to an even earlier itteration, which then goes ahead and washes clothes, which you know are now clean, because the machine STOPPED making noise, rather than finishing with a flourish of beeping, or buzzing
We need a better word than non-smart.
Maybe “sans iot enshittification”?
Not useful for Ireland, but I really like my local habitat for humanity thrift store for perfectly serviceable used or recovered building materials and appliances.
Maybe search for a model prior to the iot insanity wars?
A kind of epiphany for me were automatic wristwatches :)
Compared to smartwatches they aren't expensive, look classy and show time and/or date. The quality of Swiss, German and Japanese is reliable. No batteries, no electronics and they wind up by wearing.
Recommendation: Look for the models from the 50ies/60ies which are smaller and still in production, the less known manufacturers have reasonable prices. I love the original Mido Commander.
The cheap ~$10 casios are also excellent. They do have batteries, but they last for several months and you can but replacements at a supermarket for ~$2.
Speed Queen is generally considered one of the best you can get. They don’t really advertise, because they don’t need to.
I just got a washer/dryer within the last year and they weren’t smart. They even sell their really old design without a locking lid still (which is quite a nice thing if you don’t have kids or pets to worry about).
I got the front loader, because I had to (house design stuff I can’t work around). While it has a digital input, it’s more old school. Their top loaders still have mechanical knobs.
Commercial suppliers.
No motel microwave is “smart”. No commercial kitchen is going to have the line cooks installing “apps”.
BUT BE AWARE that commercial items have different requirements and tradeoffs! You need to research them before buying. Some may matter to you, some may be a safety issue, some may be technically or actually illegal to run at home.
For example, commercial ovens may look similar to your home oven, but have zero insulation anywhere and NOT be designed to be installed next to anything except solid metal.
But commercial and used commercial can be great. You can still get zero smarts devices, like microwaves with literally no computers in them, just a timer dial.
You can also import many from the USA, but you’d have to check power requirements very carefully. Commercial equipment is often available in 240v in the USA but it may not be self-switching.
But be aware that commercial dishwashers work - but even if you don’t get a massive Hobart machine that they’re designed for speed, not energy efficiency or silent operation.
> but have zero insulation anywhere and NOT be designed to be installed next to anything except solid metal.
This seems odd, it seems intuitive that it would reduce running costs to have some insulation? To lower energy costs by not having the oven work harder to maintain a given temperature.
Is the ability to shed heat a priority? That is, being able to cook item A at 250 C and then cook item B at 150 C in rapid succession.
Because insulation doesn’t mean anything if you’re running full-blast all shift. It doesn’t remove heat, it holds it in, so there’s no real “point”.
Even a home oven will eventually get quite hot on the sides if you cook all day.
In the restaurant kitchens I've been to (small sample size), it was HOT. We're talking AC running on full blast, and it's still very sauna-like.
I understand that the lack of insulation might be the cause of this, at least partially. But since it's already typically very hot in the kitchen, I can see why makers won't add external insulation: the unit passively losing heat might not be a real issue in production.
(Re: ability to shed heat: I know confectioners need high level of precision in temps, the rest of the industry likely doesn't have this as a hard requirement.)
Part of the issue I found is that it's their lowest quality + shortest warranty models that are 'dumb'.
I (UK) bought this (https://ao.com/product/wnc25410gb-bosch-series-8-idos-washer...) Bosch one a few months ago and it is perfectly usable without enabling any of the smart capabilities though. I haven't connected mine to wi-fi at all.
Most appliances like washing machines are "smart-optional" at most, and can just be used as a regular appliance if you don't want all the "smart" stuff. There are also many without any "smart" features. It's different for TVs and such, but for household appliances all of this is not really a big deal.
I know you're intending to be helpful with your response, but I think it can be a bit condescending to respond to someone who says they need a non-smart appliance by telling them a smart one will do.
We're probably all familiar with the XY problem, but I think we must also beware the XY problem-problem, where a posed problem is inappropriately identified as an XY problem and a good question is not given a good answer. (See also: much of Stack Overflow) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_problem
Every feature that is added, even if you don't use them, is another piece of tech that can break and potentially be non-serviceable. I've several times now had to repair or replace major appliances in the first 3-5 years of use because of logic boards and such that were unrelated to the core functionality of the appliances.
Granted, not everyone wants or cares to minimize waste when it comes to objects of convenience, but plenty of folks want the option... and yes, I do realize I sound like "your father who bought fancy cars with manual windows because it's one less thing that can break." :) My own father was that kind of person.
well you're not going to find one without a logic board, that's for sure
No one claimed that. Reducing the number of parts doesn’t imply that every single one should be removed.
there are indeed people in this comment area claiming that they'd prefer mostly analog appliances
but generally a wifi/bluetooth chip isn't going to be the point of failure that brings down an entire appliance... most work without them
I've replaced a lot of logic boards and it's usually something every board needs upstream like a voltage regulator or a capacitor that brings it down
> but generally a wifi/bluetooth chip isn't going to be the point of failure that brings down an entire appliance... most work without them
The good ones do, but some will stop working if any functionality dies. Hardest part is knowing which are which.
My problem with "smart optional" devices is that even in that case, the "smart" parts can have knock-on effects.
For example, the AC unit I bought, resets any settings changes from the front panel if you power cycle it, unless you configure them in the web interface.
My new microwave with a "child safety" lock has a button combination you can use to disable the lock, but it forgets that setting on losing power, so you have to perpetually keep the sequence needed around if you ever have brownouts or blackouts.
And, of course, if you just ignore it, it might be waiting for someone to come by with the right bluetooth or 802.11 network or s/t and use any "optional features" however they like...
The fact that it might query a firmware update if you’re not careful to never allow it to communicate outward is enough of a risk. I don’t want my appliances querying firmware updates that might brick the unit or give engineers excuses too not get it right the first time. I’ve seen what product owners do when there are known bugs but they want to ship because the user can just update later.
Most. As of 2025, this does not apply to the dishwasher from Bosch as discussed in this blog article: https://www.jeffgeerling.com/blog/2025/i-wont-connect-my-dis...
There is functionality hidden in the app, so that the manufacturer can save a dime and a half on some buttons. Unfortunately, this line has already been crossed.
The functionality that is hidden: Rinse, Machine Care (self-cleaning), HalfLoad, Eco and Delay start.
Jeff bought that dishwasher based on its Consumer Reports ratings. They must have taken his criticism into account, because it is now far from the top rated dishwasher and includes a disclosure about requiring an app.
I trust Consumer Reports and would never buy an appliance without consulting them, but it doesn't surprise me that they're a little conservative and wouldn't realize they need to call this stuff out initially.
I believe Jeff pointed out that he got the 2025 model, while the tested model was a 2024 model. So they may have retestet with the new model and it now scores worse.
The interesting bit would be to have the reaction from Bosch. They "updated" their design and the review score went down.
It's still got a pretty good score, so it probably hasn't yet been added to the scoring criteria. OTOH, it's got the caveat and it's at the bottom of the list of recommendations, so it feels like some non-numerical weighting has been applied. I hope they do add it to the scoring criteria soon.
In the meantime "wifi" is a feature that can be filtered on in their sorting tool.
Also, take a look at the permissions required for the app - why does my dishwasher need access to my search history and location?
The problem is not that you have more functionality in the app. It's that all the evil people that have designed (not implemented, the drones that write the code rarely have the right to express opinion or provide common sense in big corporate) this idiocy require you to have online account with them, for reasons unknown. This functionality should be local. Bluetooth works fine.
That's certainly worse, but needing to use your phone to run the dishwasher is still bullshit.
How on earth does that work in an Airbnb? Or like, even my house guests? Do my parents and housekeeper and who knows who else all need to be set up with the Bosch app to be able to function in my kitchen?
It barely works if you're two adults in a home. Half of all the smart appliances can only be linked to one device. Sorry honey, I couldn't do the dishes or the laundry, the machines are linked to your Bosch account.
I've got one of these Boschs, and it is bullshit ... but you "only" need the app to run some of the cycle types, so it's only a problem sometimes. The delicate cycle being app limited would be a problem if we used that more often.
So is being obligated to use remote control to operate your TV, but here we are. The only way out of this bind is to obligate manufacturers for different classes of appliances to comply with some standards about local functionality. Which I approve.
But the TV comes with the remote. An appliance with an app doesn't even have the courtesy of a remote.
It's somewhat the same problem because its possible to lose manufacturer remotes.
And if the TV decided to implement weird, non-standard control signals, it can be a pain to access certain functionality with universal remotes (e.g. settings).
Different path to get there, but same end result: not being able to access functionality without going through an annoying manufacturer-specific route.
My TV has buttons and I can control it via my phone (universal remote inbuilt app)
Yes, it's not like they come with a cell phone modem like smart cars do. You can just choose to not download the app and not give it the wifi password.
Is this so hard in your locale? When I browse the top three recommended washing machines on a popular Dutch appliances seller, only the third (Samsung) actually has some app functionality. The other two (Bosch, AEG) are just normal washing machines.
(The division there is currently 64 with app, 43 without. The models without appear to score higher in the reviews.)
Interesting, I was sure they would all have some kind of wifi these days. I think my parents have the Bosch, it's pretty good. I just find it weird that they have two input methods, the turning wheel and tip touch buttons that don't really respond well.
Mind you, I have 'regular' buttons that don't respond well either.
Agree with the Bosch touch buttons - the wheel works well but you need to use both input methods...
I find it quite ironic you suggest Bosch as normal considering https://www.jeffgeerling.com/blog/2025/i-wont-connect-my-dis... (although that was admittedly for a dishwasher)
Coolblue?
Coolblue has good service and installers and stuff, but I find they have a (probably intentionally) limited range of stuff they sell. But that's fine, I really have no interest in e.g. the bottom of the price range for appliances.
Tweakers.net probably has more specialized filters I'd imagine.
Coolblue in this case, and they do have this specific filter:
https://www.coolblue.nl/wasmachines/filter/bediening-via-app...
Our stove insists it can't implement several advertised features unless we let it at our wifi and "enable" the features. Fukdat, a stove does not need to be a network citizen, it needs to bake cookies. For me.
Then again, maybe I could hack it to host a Mastodon instance or run Doom.
Doom might be dangerous, though.
Could you provide the make/model so we can avoid this monstrosity?
I'm now imagining a Doom mod where instead of fighting the hordes of Hell you get to do battle with the gunk that's baked onto the bottom of the oven.
like what features?
I feel you. The moment I see a "smart" product, I walk away. With that in mind, I stick to the most basic of home appliances. Given that you are in the EU, you might wanna consider something like Gorenje - a Slovenian company, they make plenty of "smart" appliances but they also offer the good old analogue stuff. All my appliances at home are from them, nothing smart, nothing wifi connected, awesome build quality, good looking, reliable and an awesome value for money. Oven, fridge and washing machine combined set me back less than 2k. The downside in my case was that the ones I got were not the most efficient in terms of electricity but I can live with that.
Try searching Reddit, I just found some lists. I’ve given up and instead just don’t allow things on my network. My “smart” TV begs me to see the network but I just use a Roku instead. I fear it’s come to this where we have to circumvent our own devices desperate need for connectivity.
Hope there is no programmed issue built in. I have had devices stop working after some time saying it's been more than X years since I last updated the software and it then refuses to run. :-(
30 or more years ago I was at a law firm that had some specialized software to pump out the paperwork for residential mortgages. Every so often it would throw an error and refuse to run, which made it really popular with the paralegals who were trying to churn out a dozen mortgages a day. I called the software company. "Oh, that's not a real error, we just prefer that customers check in every so often." I called them many foul names and found out how to disable that shit. Another company sold us perverted Xerox 635 daisywheel printers that were EPROM'd to only work with their particular shitty app-specific typewheels. I had a buddy with an EEPROM burner, and we had several unperverted 635s from which we could draw clean copies. We burned new chips for every printer in the building (65 of them). And back then there wasn't shit the vendor could do. Overnight we repurposed the printers for use with regular PCs and our cost for new METAL xerox typewheels was far less.
I'd be filing a fraud lawsuit where the company is misrepresenting their goods, and logic-bombing them to disable after a condition is made.
And I would ask the maximum allowed with fraud, by law.
18 U.S. Code § 1030.
>> 18 U.S. Code § 1030
Could you pls. point me to which paras are the most relevant to the said logic-based disabling?
For the moment my big ass LG oled TV still works fine without agreeing to it selling my soul and listening in on my living room, but if it ever does cause issues I'll look into jailbreaking it and hooking up an external media player.
Many TVs have a “store mode” which dumbs them down, worth giving it a look as it may stop the nagging
The current one may be repairable! Repairing it would satisfy the requirement and be probably much cheaper.
What is the problem exactly?
(Or, buy a used one from a reputable brand.)
Why not go for a semi-automatic washing machine? It's a basic, no-frills machine, not even a digital display. Everything operates with simple knobs and mechanical timers (non-electronic). It just gets the job done. It has separate sections for washing and drying.
Although it won’t dry clothes completely, it’s a great non-smart option. In the US, you can get one for as low as $135. For Ex: https://amzn.to/3GDvpXg
NEVER get a semi automatic (washing machine), they are too much hassle. It forces you to do half the work yourself
True, but this is the most basic, non-smart machine. It runs on simple wiring and manual controls, but it gets the job done, especially when it comes to washing. Drying isn’t perfect, and yes, it requires some effort, but it’s the cheapest machine you can get.
Do you want brand new? Reason I ask is there's typically resale appliance stores that have good quality non smart devices.
If it's a Maytag, Whirlpool or another older super-reliable machine then you might consider fixing it yourself (if you're handy with tools) or finding someone to fix it. If you want to replace it with a good washer, then know that there are shops who sell rebuilt/refurbished models of the most trustworthy appliances.
Meanwhile for DIY-ers, parts are usually available and there are YouTube videos on most major models (telling you which models are best, how to fix/maintain them, how to run them, etc.).
We have a Whirlpool Ultimate Care II that is about 50 years old and has been thru 4 generations of people. I've worked on it twice: once to replace a switch and the second time to replace some ratchet gears. Repairmen have also worked on it in my absence. Like most of the older washers, it's designed to be easy to dismantle and repair. It washes more gently than any other washer I've seen: consequently our clothes last longer. Wish the software I use was as easy to fix.
I replaced the pulley drum belt with a kit and the squeaky roller wheels for my whirlpool dryer.
That thing is a tank and so easy to service!
I’m just scared it will fail catastrophically some day and the gas burner will ignite the garage. Do you know how safe an old gas burning whirlpool dryer is compared to modern gas dryers? The whirlpool can get super hot and basically bake my clothes if I want.
Electrolux. Their washers tend to be non-smart. I own one in the U.S. and i’m happy with it.
Here’s a similar one available in ireland (€429.99): https://www.did.ie/products/electrolux-8kg-1400rpm-freestand...
I confirmed this on the products official page here: https://www.electrolux.co.uk/laundry/laundry/washing-machine...
click on “product details”, then “Full Specification”, it says “Connectivity: No”.
The Electrolux ireland store (online) sells many different parts as well, so repairs shouldn’t be too stressful in the future.
Smart also comes with bugs!
I have a washing machine without wifi fortunately. It has this steam function where you can set it to steam your clothing regularly at the end of the wash cycle, in case you forget to take them out in time.
Half the time if i turn that on it takes the button press to stop but does not unlock the door :)
I have to run an extra dry cycle manually to get at my laundry. Which kind of defeats the point of the 'fire and forget' option.
I bought a speed queen which is more geared to commercial usage, but you can buy without coin slots. Has two knobs and one button!
Second that. They are a bit expensive. My DR5 was around $1200 USD, but yes it is super minimalistic.
"Smart" and "Intelligent" could have multiple meanings here. Sometimes a washer that uses a dirt sensor is labeled smart. In US I've found anything above the lowest end has wifi capability, unfortunately. My $100 printer had some suspicious notes about sending data to google (!!!). I never connect any of these gadgets to wifi.
Tempted to just buy a golfcart motor and some nesting buckets to build the thing myself. It's not a terribly complex device.
Laundry machines are indeed extremely simple, and I remember my grandmother had one that could be hand operated.
Wahing machines for dishes are much more complex and have many more points of failure.
Dish washers are even simpler, I'm confident I could build one if I wanted it but since I'm single I just wash my five dishes by hand.
In the US, a dishwasher costs ~$900 with install and lasts ~10 years (not even considering electricity costs). Hiring a disabled person legally at $1.75 for half an hour per week costs the same $910 over 10 years. Same price, but one supports a machine; the other supports a human being. Why fund metal and smart Wi-Fi appliances when you can empower someone’s life?
> Why fund metal and smart Wi-Fi appliances when you can empower someone’s life?
Because it's illegal to pay so little, and nobody would do it for that price anyway, except for maybe your own children, who do it for that price plus the negative incidence of an asswhooping. If it were affordable for common people to have servants or slaves, they totally would. Machinery priced slaves out of existence. The next frontier is for value-added centralized industrial manufacturing to be priced out by distributed manufacturing and recycling, not a return to the days of domestic servitude.
>Because it's illegal to pay so little, and nobody would do it for that price anyway
He mentions mentally disabled people specifically, who have lower minimum wage levels in some jurisdictions.
https://archive.is/DcQeM
That's hilarious, I never thought to actually do the numbers. We've gotten so bad at manufacturing and trading it's likely cheaper and possibly easier to hire someone to do the thing.
It’s also satire of the working conditions of disabled people in the US
Poe’s law[1] is a thing, perhaps consider adding “/s”, “;)”, or similar. Replies will increase ambiguity and eventually people will misunderstand.
[1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law
"supports" - this is satire right
> with install
You just connect a couple of hoses and power, surely? And I'll bet the install fee eats a huge percentage of that price.
I recently replaced a dishwasher, and while the old one just had a cable to plug in, the new one needed some power box, so I had to mount that, and the existing holes for cables and hoses weren't big enough, so I needed to enlarge those. Not a big problem for me, I'm handy, but a lot of people aren't comfortable making holes in things. Physically moving the machines wasn't that hard, but I have plenty of dollies and what not.
I was lucky and someone was interested in the old one to try to fix it, or to swap parts and make their current one look nicer, so I didn't have to haul the other one away to the dump, but that's something the installer will typically do.
_Hiring a disabled person legally at $1.75 for half an hour per week_
...but morally?
>Why fund metal and smart Wi-Fi appliances when you can empower someone’s life?
/s ?
Author claims it is satire, as replied here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44489170
Ireland is small, you basically have Curry's or DID to choose from as a retail vendor. Just go on their websites and find a cheap model without smarts. The more expensive models don't wash any cleaner I reckon and it's often them who come with smarts baked in.
The BuyItForLife subreddit is a good source for products that are high quality, repairable, and built to last.
It's not exclusively aimed at non-smart stuff, but there tends to be a pretty strong overlap between the two - so it might be worth taking a look at.
Somewhat. A lot of those recommendations seem to be of the type, “I bought the most expensive brand possible and it works great! No complaints after seven days of ownership”
Also frustrating when it might be, “Look at this 30 year old Craftsmen wrench.” Unfortunately, that 30 year old version is no longer made, as production has been MBAed and quality is now an afterthought because they can still sell the logo for a premium price.
I always found the latter to be a huge problem with that sub. So much stuff like "these products from X are the greatest thing ever...but that brand is terrible now, don't buy from them"
Turns out, BIFL products are only recognized as such in hindsight, which is often after enshittification hits.
I've found a good source of recommendations can be friends and family who bought something similar 3-4 years ago. If something is going to go catastrophically wrong, it probably will have happened by then, and it's still possible that the same product is available.
BIFL often says the same things though, when it comes to appliances they'll say Speed Queen (US) or Miele (EU).
Used appliance store? We have those where I am
For consumers in India, we have a crowdsourced wiki for such products: https://www.isfixable.com/
Maytag commercial makes old-school washers + dryers with no PCBs. The control boards are through-hole components only and a schematic is included inside the panels. https://www.maytagcommerciallaundry.com/mclstorefront/mcl/en...
Samsung sells commercial monitors that are just TVs without all the smart crap. You can even opt out of a wifi card
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1828914-REG/samsung_q...
I'm not aware of any lists, and the market is thin, but they're out there.
For the curious, I checked some prices on the maytags - a little less than 3,000 USD for the front loader, the Speed Queen commercial ones were cheaper.
I think because you're a new account and you're posting a lot of links, your posts are likely getting hidden. I've vouched for them where I can and hopefully other people with showdead on will see them and vouch for them too.
Making a note of Samsung; I've had the worst time looking for large, dumb monitors. I've returned about 4 now due to the obnoxious boot times, incompatibility, menu trees, ads(!), etc.
Ads in a monitor?? How does that even work?
I bought Whirlpool washer/dryer combo, washer is top load, both non-smart, I think it was like $600ish for both from HomeDepot. "Smart" really isn't as innovative as like improving product longevity, reducing lint clog, safety, etc. I used a smart fridge once, it won't dispense water without updating to the latest firmware. I was just glad it wasn't in my house.
Consumer Reports has "WiFi" as a feature column in its product listings for washing mashines and dishwashers. So you can filter or sort on that column.
You probably have to subscribe to be able to do so, but I'd never buy a major appliance without reading the Consumer Reports rating.
I’ve got an Electrolux (AEG) since 2015 and it recently needed its heating element replaced because I never bothered to use any water softeners. It took the serviceman 10 minutes and cost less than 100 euros.
I also have friends with Samsung washing machines. Let’s just say get an AEG.
My Samsung dryer needed a heating element replaced. It cost €450 (~80% of the original purchase price) and involved replacing basically half the machine. I’ll be actively avoiding Samsung in the future.
This is why you’ll have to pry my 20 year old gas burning whirlpool dryer from my dead hands.
I replace a squeaky drum wheel ~$20 and a drum pulley belt kit ~$40 and this dryer is flawless. It can bake my towels if I want or run low heat for delicates.
My parents Samsung is constantly on the fritz and their home warranty company keeps replacing parts or the whole unit over the years.
That's an insane amount - how old is the dryer?
I've replaced two heating elements in my ~9 year old Samsung dryer, I think the heating elements were less than 50 USD. I did the labor myself so I don't know how much that would have been - you do have to take the dryer apart, but it doesn't take very long if you have experience, 15-20 minutes or less.
I would not recommend Samsung - I've had to take that dryer apart more than 10 times to replace/fix things, I can't imagine how much it would have cost me if I couldn't do it myself. The only plus there is now I can literally break it down and put it back together very quickly when I need to fix it.
Luckily the Samsung washer has been fine.
The heating elements were buried deep in the machine and would have involved many hours of labour to take it apart; it took long enough to strip it down to the point where I realised how complex it was going to be to get any further. Machine was bought in late 2021, but was unfortunately out of guarantee by a couple of months when it broke. I’m happy to tear stuff down (spent yesterday unsticking the fan on a vacuum cleaner) but that was too much for me.
So what did you end up doing to fix it? My old whirlpool dryer is bulletproof and easy to repair.
Paid to get the entire bottom half of the inside of the machine replaced. It was that, or spending weeks trying to debug the problem with non-existant parts, or buy a new one.
I have an Electrolux whose heating element gave out after six months. Fortunately well within the warranty period; repair guy mentioned that it was a known issue. Eight years later it's still going strong, so...
Just don't give it access to the internet and you're set, no?
A lot will refuse to work if you don't connect them :(
Any product that doesn't work without WiFi, where that product class (e.g. "washing machine") existed before the invention of WiFi, I would just return as defective.
One option is buying second-hand. Seniors are likely to have a goldmine of sturdy, repairable, dumb appliances just sitting at home like it's no big deal.
Why would they give it up for a mind numbing modern wifi version?
Or do you mean at estate sales when they pass?
Yeah I mean mostly estate sales
Do you mean no networking capabilities? My Zug is modern and advanced (even intelligent?) but no networking. Super expensive though.
Get any decent consumer grade firewall, assign static IP to appliance, block all traffic. Done.
Search for commercial appliances not consumer. Thats the most straightforward.
BTW, if you want to partially "smartify" your nice, dumb machine, using a Tasmota-enabled power socket which is capable of measuring the current in order to create yourself a notification system for when the washing machine is done, or when the microwave stopped cooking, can be a good solution.
It's easy finding dumb washing machines. I'd bet that most of the current washing machines on the market are dumb.
This is such a great feature thanks for sharing the product. How many other smart plugs measure voltage for notifications??
Great tip for finding no/minimal-BS appliances is to download their user manuals and check how they actually work instead of their marketing material.
Speedqueen.
They need to make a dishwasher.
You just need more durable dishes, my Speed Queen washes dishes just fine (you don’t want to know).
I eat off an old pair of pants. Same difference.
My kingdom for a reliable 40yo washing machine and dryer.
So tired of replacing my appliances every 4 years
Speed Queen - or the actual commercial variant if you have to.
Warning - you NEED to go with the top loader if your actually want basically no maintenance. The front loaders WILL require seals at times.
But the Queen can run 40 years.
Speed Queen, model TC5, perfect!
https://www.bestbuy.com/site/speed-queen-tc5-classic-top-loa...
App compatible: No.
Wireless connectivity: No.
Pacha perfection meme.
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Speed Queen
Repair your current device? If that is really not possible get a "smart" one and dumb it down - don't allow any network access or - if it insists on being connected or you want to get some use out of its "smart" functions - put it on a separate network which has no access to the internet. Of and when I'm "forced" to get a new "smart" piece of equipment this is what I do if I can not change the firmware on the thing to something under my own control. I never let any "smart" device access the internet because of a host of reasons ranging from security and privacy to the risks of the thing "upgrading" itself without my approval.
fix the old stuff. while you are fixing it, you can disable all the pre-smart, "features", further fixing it impact driver, and a few wrenches, if it's realy broken, then keep going till its easy to tote pieces, and go find a used one someone is just replacing in an "upgrade" older heavy duty commercial stuff is sought after now....it was designed to be fixed. personaly, I can fix, or modify,most stuff, and scratch build any imaginable simple machine, mostly for shop or agricultural use, but venture into marine and aviation parts and systems. a lot of (older) domestic and comercial stuff can be figured out just useing visual diagnosis and following the logic of the circuits, which is often usefull in detrmining that the broken part is a "feature" and can just be bypassed, essentialy backdating the applience to an even earlier itteration, which then goes ahead and washes clothes, which you know are now clean, because the machine STOPPED making noise, rather than finishing with a flourish of beeping, or buzzing
We need a better word than non-smart. Maybe “sans iot enshittification”?
Not useful for Ireland, but I really like my local habitat for humanity thrift store for perfectly serviceable used or recovered building materials and appliances. Maybe search for a model prior to the iot insanity wars?
I call my watch 'really smart watch'. It has nothing but time! It is very lightweight and has 2+ years of battery life. That smarter! :-)
A kind of epiphany for me were automatic wristwatches :)
Compared to smartwatches they aren't expensive, look classy and show time and/or date. The quality of Swiss, German and Japanese is reliable. No batteries, no electronics and they wind up by wearing.
Recommendation: Look for the models from the 50ies/60ies which are smaller and still in production, the less known manufacturers have reasonable prices. I love the original Mido Commander.
The cheap ~$10 casios are also excellent. They do have batteries, but they last for several months and you can but replacements at a supermarket for ~$2.
Mine is solar charging. It has never stopped since i bought it :)
It just displays time and can't spam me with notifications! Bliss!
My watch is a genius. It doesn't even need charging. It charges when I move my arm.
unshittified.
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