Like many people my age (ahem!) the Commodore 64 was my first computer and I loved it and it's responsible for my long software development career.
But I don't want that Commodore 64 today.
I want the Commodore 64 of 2025. A machine where middle schoolers can learn the basics of programming while having fun with graphics and sound. Maybe even have a simple 2D gaming engine built-in. I don't know. I want the spirit of the Commodore 64, not the actual machine itself.
> I want the Commodore 64 of 2025. A machine where middle schoolers can learn the basics of programming while having fun with graphics and sound. Maybe even have a simple 2D gaming engine built-in. I don't know. I want the spirit of the Commodore 64, not the actual machine itself.
Exactly. This is what I think every time I see one of these old revival projects. I don't want a Spectrum, C64, Atari ST, etc...we have those, they're fairly easy to acquire and renovate. And are more than capable of being run on a FPGA. And there are dozens of projects built around the same old 6502, Z80, etc.
Stop locking your perspective into the 80s to try to recapture that nostalgia.
No, give me a new "hobbyist" computer in the spirit of those days. Throw an ARM m-series/RISC-V/etc on it with some custom blitter/vdpu and sound ASICs and 512MB of RAM. Give it some easily accessible programming environment on ROM, with an option to baremetal with ASM, C, etc. Add a few slots that are MMAPed in. And let the hobbyist field run wild.
> No, give me a new "hobbyist" computer in the spirit of those days. Throw an ARM m-series/RISC-V/etc on it with some custom blitter/vdpu and sound ASICs and 512MB of RAM. Give it some easily accessible programming environment on ROM, with an option to baremetal with ASM, C, etc. Add a few slots that are MMAPed in. And let the hobbyist field run wild.
Isn't a pi awfully close to that, at least in spirit? For my 10 year-old's science project, I bought a trio of interesting sensors off amazon, showed her a diagram of the GPIO pins and a diagram of the sensor pins, explained how to map between the two, and had her draw it out with colored pencils.
Then I burned a fresh raspbian image onto a sd card, connected a keyboard, mouse, and tv, and helped her figure out how to read the GPIO pins in python. The vibe of the whole thing felt a lot like the old things we had in the 80s and early 90s, but more accessible because I didn't have to deal with weird serial/parallel junk or with putting together a PCB for the slots.
It does sound like this crew harbors ambitions of moving past nostalgia to embracing that spirit a little more, but I don't personally feel like that's lacking in the Pi ecosystem, at least...
> The vibe of the whole thing felt a lot like the old things we had in the 80s and early 90s
Except back then you were doing all the discovering and figuring stuff out without any help from your parents. At least that's the way it was in my circle of friends. When a 10-year-old is able to do everything you did without any assistance from an adult, then we'll have the spirit of the Commodore 64.
It’s similar on the hobbyist interest side, sure. But generally gathers more from the hardware hobbyists than software. This is because the Broadcom SoC is somewhat awful to do bare metal on (mostly due to anything beyond a framebuffer being mostly locked off), so you’re limited to using Linux for full capabilities.
Nothing wrong with that, but definitely a different environment than something like BASIC as your bootrom, or direct hardware poking you’d get from the old hobbyist machines.
I have always wanted to learn to build a (relatively modern) computer like the one you described:
- Some 32-bit CPU, whatever, anything that is a bit easy to program through C/ASM, just to make sure there is no weird kirks.
- Support keyboards, displays, mouse, etc., just the usual ones. So a lot of drivers.
- Some 256MB - 512MB memory should be good enough.
- Has an OS, some programming languages, some tools, a good editor, etc.
This is like the Ben Eater 8-bit computer in adrenaline. It is probably a LOT of work just to figure out how to source the correct components, and build the thing, then a LOT more work to write drivers for them, and MORE work to write OS and compilers and tools for them. We can't use Linux because it has memory protection all over the place. We need something that newbies can poke and peek into, and simply reset the CPU if something is wrong, just like the micro computers in the 70s/80s. We DO want capable compilers and interpreters (e.g. C/Python) and good tools (like, some editors that have good auto-complete at least).
It's a bit like building a pad or a mobile phone, but without all those commercial consideration. Nowadays, to build a pad or a mobile phone, if I'm not mistaken, one simply push Android into the chipsets and call it a day, which is not what I want. But what I want probably doesn't make $$ so no one is going to do it.
> Support keyboards, displays, mouse, etc., just the usual ones. So a lot of drivers.
You wouldn’t even need that if you released it as an all-in-one like the hobbyist machines of yore (C64, speccy, etc). Just give it a relatively decent cherry MX built-in with swappable keyblocks. Add a USB hub for HID devices and include a basic HID driver, and include HDMI.
That's what I want too. But I fear that even if such a machine existed, the spirit wouldn't be there. Just like no one forms bands or makes personal websites anymore.
The hardware is the easy part. But if you want a selection of software such as exists for the C64, that takes a lot more time and of course there’s no guarantee that it will ever come to pass.
If you’re trying to make yourself into a massive company off of it, sure the interest definitely doesn’t exist and you should forget it.
If you look at the amount of interest projects like the openpandora, the retro rereleases, etc get; there’s plenty enough for something to hack around on. You would just have to release it as a side/passion project with modest revenue projections.
I've been into 'retro computing' continuously since the 80s and there have been a variety of interesting retro focused machines like this launched over the last 15 years. They are mostly hobby projects but some have scaled up through crowd funding to be marginally successful. A big success in this market would be shipping a thousand units but few reach that level. I think the reason is that despite quite a bit of interest the market is fragmented into different groups with differing primary goals:
* Capture "the spirit" of an all-in-one, simple computer that boots to an accessible language.
* Recreate an actual 80s computer via software, FPGA emulation or compatible CPU. A major sub-group is those wanting support for physical 80s media which can include disks, cartridges and even tape.
Within these major groups are a variety of different requirements. A big one is whether the machine must support modern displays (HDMI) or authentic retro displays (CRTs). If you don't have a CRT then HDMI is a requirement, however inserting what was originally low-res analog composite video into a hi-res digital container involves some significant trade-offs and design complexity. It's not trivial or cheap to do well with high-quality and high-compatibility. Then there are those who split on whether modern connectivity and conveniences like Wifi, Ethernet and SD card media are mandatory, nice-to-haves or definite should-not-haves. Of course, those conveniences aren't much use without sufficient CPU power and resolution to support a modern browser and OS capable of reading modern media which involve more cost and potential compatibility issues.
The great thing is that those who are retro-interested now have a lot of good options ranging from OG hardware to software emulation, FPGA systems and all-new designs. My advice is to be clear on what experience you really want, the specific traits you care about and the various trade-offs and challenges those entail before diving in.
I think the challenge is computers these days can do so much that tinkering with something like this no longer feels futuristic or cutting edge like a C=64 did back then.
Sure, a modern SBC repackaged in an all-in-one case can be a good option for most of the first group I mentioned. However, out of the box it doesn't boot to BASIC like an early 80s home computer so you'd need to configure a custom boot and choose a language. And even within that group there are some for who the simplicity of limited graphics, resolution and other capabilities is an important element, so they'd probably want to go further to something like auto-booting directly into a software emulation of an 80s computer.
For those who care about running retro software titles, software or FPGA emulation would be the minimum, however that doesn't help those who want support for retro physical media or peripherals, CRT displays or highly accurate emulation. You may not care about those things but for a significant part of the addressable market for machines like this, one or more of those things are a high priority. Which was my point, the retro-interested market looks pretty large but when you zoom in, you realize it's fragmented and that makes it challenging to design a device that appeals to enough buyers. Since the RPi 400 seems perfect to you, you probably don't care about it looking like a C64, however the folks behind this new device paid a lot to buy the Commodore brand name and logo (supposedly up to a million dollars). And that's before the plastic moulds, retro keyboard etc. For you, that may all be wasted money and effort. For others it might be a big part of the appeal.
It's certainly possible to make a retro computer that has HDMI, Wifi, Ethernet and SD cards and gets on the modern web but also has analog composite, S-video, and component output for CRTs, along with having a cartridge port, floppy drive, serial or parallel port and which runs period software with cycle-accuracy. However, that device is probably going to cost close to $1,000 and take a fair bit of time and expertise to create. I'm a hardcore retro-enthusiast and I'd certainly consider spending that kind of money but most people probably wouldn't. Worse... I'm not even in the market for such a wonder-machine because I already own over a hundred different models of retro computer along with analog composite, S-video and composite CRTs to use them (almost every 80s model of Commodore, Atari, Apple, Amiga, Sinclair, Amstrad and Radio Shack along with other more obscure brands).
The Mega65 was a stab at this idea - a self contained modernized version of the old 8-bit computer while trying to maintain backwards compatibility with C64 programs.
Which is based on the 6502-compatible 65C816 but used a simple banking scheme instead of the broken 24-bit address space that chip natively supports (no 24-bit index registers) The way video memory works in it is really clever and lets it really surpass 1980s machines in many ways.
which is priced right though it doesn't have the keyboard and instead based on the eZ80 which really does extend the Z-80 with 24-bit registers so that you can use all the RAM easily.
The guys behind Olimex are top chaps!
Their products are not only affordable, also OpenSource as well!
Nothing good came so far by the C= or Amiga copyrights...
Are you remembering the same BASIC that I’m remembering? With fixed line numbers? Refactoring was near impossible. Spaghetti code was par for the course. You were forced to build everything twice or thrice if you wanted a final product that wasn’t embarrassing.
Just not having line numbers cooked in is a total game changer.
I had a C16, and later a C128D (and therefore a C64). The C64 had the most limited BASIC of them all, with v2.0. So many advanced features were hidden behind PEEK/POKE. With BASIC 3.5 on the C16, they added the RENUMBER command, which made refactoring much easier, and it had a SOUND command, despite having a much simpler DSP implementation. The C128 had BASIC v7.0, which included a sprite editor, and much more advanced SOUND command.
If they upgraded the C64's BASIC to 7.0, that would already make a lot of things much more accessible.
> With fixed line numbers? Refactoring was near impossible. Spaghetti code was par for the course.
Yup, even for the old 8-bit computers FORTH would've been a lot more elegant than BASIC. But back in the day BASIC came with highly valued conveniences such as a soft-float implementation that meant support for the "desk calculator" use case was available out of the box, and users could just go on from there.
There are many flavours of BASIC; some with line numbers and GOTO/GOSUB, some without line numbers and real subroutines. FreeBASIC for example doesn't have line numbers. It's similar to Fortran or COBOL, both of whom also started out with line numbers and GOTO-oriented programming. But no one uses those languages like that any more.
No idea what this BASIC looks like though; the documentation seems chaotic and hard to access. Just saying that BASIC does not necessarily mean the BASIC that you or I used back in the day. I also agree that you can do a hell of a lot better than Python to introduce programming to kids.
Plenty of elementary and middle-school kids learned LOGO which is a vastly more elegant language than BASIC. (It's essentially a LISP with different syntax, the one thing that's inadvisable about it for modern purposes is its use of dynamic scope.)
I think understand of programming as a sequence of commands is necessary before you go to abstractions. BASIC's GOTO is a feature, not a bug: that's how assembly work.
As an adult I'd strongly prefer Lisp over Basic. But I appreciate Lisp or lambda calculus elegance after I spent some time with more basic kind of stuff. Going to higher abstractions right away won't have the same effect
Python would be the wrong choice. BASIC is the ultimate "batteries included" language. No weirdness hidden behind dynamic types and you can make full games with graphics and sounds (in most implementations) without installing a single external library. BASIC is feature-poor by design and beginners can quickly fully master it. And there are classic variants without line numbers (no need for GOTOs) for those who hate them.
IMHO, humanity is yet to build a better beginner language, at least if you look at the late BASICs such as QuickBASIC.
Besides being integral to the experience / faithful to the prototype C65, it is remarkably reliable storage media that's well-suited for this class of machine, which have very few KBs of RAM.
In that regard, I almost feel like a new Atari 800-series would be better.
The C64 had good graphics and excellent sound but so much of it was behind a brick-wall learning curve of poking. Atari's native BASIC at least provided some rudimentary access. You want something where the user can get a win on day 1, or it's getting buried in the closet with the rock tumbler.
Or maybe if they packed in a super-extended BASIC ROM. But pretty quickly you end up wanting something with more modern flow control and structures, maybe closer to "Qbasic with sprite commands" and then you're probably demanding more than what can be reasonably asked of a 6510-class CPU.
>The C64 had good graphics and excellent sound but so much of it was behind a brick-wall learning curve of poking. Atari's native BASIC at least provided some rudimentary access. You want something where the user can get a win on day 1, or it's getting buried in the closet with the rock tumbler.
This was not my experience at all.
I started with an Atari 400 when I was 11, and there was little to no documentation about the machine. I took a BASIC programming class taught on a Vic 20 when I was 10 years old. But then I saved up and got an Atari for my 11th birthday. I cut my teeth on Atari Basic, but it seemed so limited to me. I wanted full access to all of the machine but there was simply no documentation my 11 year old self had available, the internet was not a thing, and there were no books about it at my local library in the early 1980s. The BASIC cartridge didn't really offer much in the way of using the machine to its full capacity.
Then I got a C64 and everything changed. The C64 manual I had included BASIC programming, as well as how to program the sound chip to make simple music and sound effects. There was a complete memory map of the C64 including all the chips, the VIC, the SID, the CIA chips - everything. All the pinouts for all the I/O ports were mapped out.
And in the back of the manual were all the opcodes for the CPU, with detailed information about how they work, A, X, and Y registers, status registers, program counter, address modes, etc, etc... it was absolutely fantastic how much was documented, literally everything about the computer. The book even had a full schematic of the C64 in the very back as a large fold-out poster. Atari had nothing like this.
It was like night and day compared to the very closed Atari platform. I quickly ate up BASIC on the C64 and moved right into assembly language, when I was 14. I got very into the European "demo scene", while being a teenager in America in the mid/late 1980s. Atari 8-bit just seemed like a toy compared to what was going on with the C64 in the world at the time.
I agree. I recently started exposing my kids to programming and I chose a C64 emulator. The BASIC REPL is so simple/limited that it doesn’t overwhelm the kids with irrelevant syntax (those can come later, if they are interested). The fact that a 1..100 loop can introduce a noticeable delay. You can literally see the computer working. Primitive graphics and sound provide immediate feedback which makes learning engaging and fun.
Tulip CC is the modern C64. The software is mostly fleshed out for audio apps right now, but feature for feature, it's doing the same kinds of thing, with the same eye to budget:
I would argue that we have that today in the form of the Apple MacMini (https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/mac-mini) -- the Commodore 64 was priced at around $300 in 1984 or $950 in 2025 money. The basic model MacMini comes in at $600 today. For that you get a fully Unix system with a full development suite to build desktop/mobile/Unix apps out of the box. Every development platform is available (C/C++, Python, Swift, JavaScript, Java, Rust, etc.) on it. The expansion system is extremely simple also (USB C/Thunderbolt). Not to mention it is much smaller than a Commodore 64 and arguably more user friendly.
This was great at the time, I feel it should of come with a 'computing partner doc' like a piece of paper with how to backup and restore with a second sd card, and links to stuff about censorware and what people think about certain places attached to the internet..
I saw one of these at a pawnshop with a $250 price tag and I think a chrome book can be had for less.
not sure what the current availability and pricing of PI type things are these days - but the kano kit was a perfect fit at the right time back then.
I think part of that spirit was not having the internet. You had the machine, a couple books and a handful of magazines. But more importantly an unstoppable desire to figure out how it worked. The internet would have been a distraction.
Some of it is astonishing given the limitations of the machine.
The technical mastery and creative problem solving going on here is what keeps the demoscene alive. The C64 is still going strong, new productions come out all the time.
And I can't think of a better machine for a kid today to start out with than an 8-bit machine. If they learn assembly language on a C64, they will have a far better understanding of how computers actually work than anyone taking a class in web or crypto or whatever they teach kids about computers today.
(disclaimer, I have maybe a bit too much of this retro hardware.. unhealthy amount, ahem).
Raspberry Pi 400 / 5 would be that.. but, in reality and pragmatically since it needs to be something widespread I'd argue it's actually a browser. In Chrome you hit Ctrl-Shift I and console is right there.
Is this all just nostalgia?
Nostalgia is one of our two core pillars - alongside modern innovation. Like yin and yang, these forces balance and strengthen each other in that retro • futurism approach.
The commercial power of nostalgia is real - and it will help fuel and fund the development of modern, forward-facing products in turn. It’s a symbiotic cycle: retro inspires, modern sustains. Commodore isn’t returning. It’s evolving, with purpose.
They also mention that they explicitly wanted this - a state-of-the-art reimplementation of the old C64 - to be their first released product, which makes some sense. It's also the product where their Commodore trademark - the real value behind this new effort - is most relevant, shifting away from the old pattern where random products would be "Commodore" branded, with no real link to the company's history or to any plausible "retro futurism" vision.
Agreed it looks like slop, and it's IMO a bad sign. I think a big part of the appeal of old computers is the fact that they're simple enough for a single human to completely understand.
Generative AI is a black box that's impossible to completely understand. Using generative AI signals to me that whoever did it probably doesn't find any inherent value in understanding things, and sees understanding only as a means to an end. Old computers have little practical use, so this leaves nostalgia as the main appeal, and nostalgia has less stringent requirements.
To kids these days, a laptop with a something like Roblox Studio on it is pretty magical. Most of their "laptop" exposure is with Chromebooks that only run school stuff, everything else is on consumption-focused tablets and phones that don't leave much room for creativity, or even basic customization.
I have a Commander X16 and my kid had fun doing that Basic infinite maze program, but after that, my dream was over :)
I get how they're using nostalgia, but it doesn't seem to be coming from a cynical place. The transformation of technology from a utility to a nuisance at best and a disease at worst, strikes a chord for me.
Computers used to be fun and yet require actual interest and effort, it's why I ended where I am. What a bait and switch.
It reads like Mark Fisher’s observation about capitalism absorbing all resistance. Resistance becomes the next market. So it’s doubly cynical as it’s a cash grab of sorts hoping to ride on everyone’s burnout from modern tech. I agree, it’d be better to just ride the nostalgia itself and let others come to their own conclusions about why they are nostalgic.
All that said I do miss this era of computing greatly where one could understand it inside out and that was encouraged. I loved the C64 demo scene in the 80s.
I've been watching the new CEO's videos for a few years. He seems like a genuine person who isn't cynical about this at all. I don't think it's a cash grab, but a real hope that a community and something wholesome can be created around this nostalgic company. Either way, it's never going to be a huge cash cow, only a quiet niche.
That’s cool and I hope it works out then. The C64 is my favorite computing device ever produced since it’s how I learned to program and introduced me to music trackers. The marketing made it feel like a cash grab since there is another wave of retro revival going on.
Its the cynical people who believe everything else is always cynical. If somebody wants to do a crash grab they could do crypto or some AI scam with much less effort.
> absorbing all resistance
Because its was not resistance in the first place ...
> hoping to ride on everyone’s burnout from modern tech
And with 'everybody' you mean a tiny group of nerds who know what a C64 is?
Ok? If you’re going to make accusations that I think everything is cynical for critiquing their marketing I don’t know what to tell you. People are allowed to do that.
There's a syntax error in line 10 (t0 instead of to).
Also, what's the source for this program? I tried it on VICE and failed miserably. Maybe something (else) was copied wrong? Or is it supposed to fail on emulators?
Absolutely love the SID chip. The clever way of imitating chord-based triads by just rapid arpeggiating on a single channel was super cool to me as kid.
The SID chip is an analog semi-modular synth with digital control. The arpeggios unfortunately seem to be so heavily leaned on that it pretty much defines the chiptune sound, and those arpeggios could be played on lots of other systems, but the SID, when you dig into the beat frequencies and filters is a rich sonic world like no other.
I'm still looking for the 2025-2030 version of a kid's first computer. C64 and Apple ][ made sense back then because whatever the poor animation they provided back in the late 70s/early 80s are exciting ENOUGH for younger version of us. Back then ANY interaction is good enough. NES was the bang but it definitely requires a lot of imagination to match the sprites to the box arts. I think the key here is to force the kids to use imagination.
Actually I'm going to do an experiment on my soon to be 5-years-old son. I have exposed some cartoon shows to him, but none of them is very fancy. I gave him Curious George and Bluey, both fall more into the hand-drawn camp than the CG camp. I have never expose him to any games or mobile apps like TikTok. I'm going to expose NES games or C64 games to him and see if he is interested. Despite my respect to John Carmack, I'm always in the camp of "you don't need post-2000 graphics to make any genre interesting, even for FPS", and I always believe the advancement of graphics hurts games more than benefiting them.
Was at a friend's place a few years ago. He had an original c64, tape drive, disk drive, okidata printer, and a trove of disks. We'd been friends since high school, but I think he'd stopped using his by then, and I was more of the computer guy (we bonded over guitars, not code).
This was just sitting in his garage. "Take it - take it all" he said. Then... was sort of forceful with it, and started putting it in my car. :)
I took it back home, and... realized I can't connect it to anything. And I'm not a hardware guy. I hate hacking on that sort of stuff. So I ended up giving it all to a friend who was getting in to retro stuff with his son. I think they got it working and connected up to something. I also gave him my C128.
I still have the original Commodore 'Prolog' and (IIRC) 'Forth' packaging somewhere in the office here. :)
Looking at these (and probably some other incarnations) I'm tempted to get one only because of the built in HDMI.
I've poked around with some emulators online and it's fun, but the combination of the original keyboard and shape plus HDMI might be enough to get me to commit. Probably just the original beige though.
If it is all original, you'll want to be careful with the power supply. It's known to fail in a way that over voltages. Replacement ones can be made or bought relatively inexpensively.
That was also in the back of my mind. Even back in the 80s, I remember those bricks being a source of heat and... shock sometimes. I'm just not a hardware guy, so gave it to someone who I think loves tinkering with that sort of stuff... :)
Its so funny you mention the color. Looking at the image on the website, I was struck by the fact that beige could strike a visceral exciting nostalgia reaction in me. I mean, its beige FFS, the ultimate "boring" color :) I went from a totally disengaged / disinterested teen in school to paying out of my own pocket (I think $50 at the time) to take a course taught be Steve Punter in the basement of a library on the other side of Toronto on 6502 assembler -- in the summer!
Am I the only one who gets sad when looking at the site? The resentment of modern computing and interconnected life feels extremely wrong with a Commodore brand on it.
Don't get me wrong, I would love to have the box, but to me commodore means the complete opposite. It was the tech that inspired me to start learning and later building complex systems. The evolution of tech after this machine did not steal anything from me, but enriched my life both financially and otherwise.
While I did get to use a Vic20 in school I did not have a c64 but my friend did. At home I had an Apple IIe (which I still have) and it was great but boy was I jealous of all those color C64 games and also the modem they had for it! I didn't get a modem until I switched to a PC in 1989.
Someone broke into my house and stole my Vic20 and tape deck; we used the insurance money to buy a C64 and disc drive. At the time it was very tramatic, but turned out to be a big blessing!
In a way I'd just have preferred for them to slap an official Commodore branding on the Mega65, which is IMHO a much more compelling and amazing product:
I find it a bit of a shame it’s so expensive though. By far, the most important aspect of emulation is the physical experience, from typing on an accurate recreation, to inserting floppies, to hearing the sounds and feeling the vibration. The mega65 could be a shell with a small ARM board inside and I’d be happy, the same way I am with my The64 Maxi.
Pretty inexpensive? I went ahead and pulled the trigger on the pre-order.
I have a couple of KIM-1 "clones" and enjoy them as well. I feel like, in my old age, whenever that comes, I will enjoy them even more. Diving at long last deep into assembly....
Earlier in the day the number of preorders / total number of systems available was shown on the order page. That seems to have been removed now. Presales may be going slower than hoped.
A nice emulated alternative used to be TheC64. I own one, not sure if it's available at a reasonable price anymore. Not a real Commodore -- it's running a version of VICE in an ARM chip -- but with the actual form factor of a breadbin C64 and with a working keyboard, which brings back memories!
You can play games and even program (basic, assembly, etc) using a real keyboard. Pretty cool!
I like this is hardware based rather than emulated. However, I'm unconvinced by the color changing case, which the C64 didn't have...
I think it hits a sweet spot where the physical experience is close enough (where would you get an HDMI CRT monitor?). I maintain the physical interaction with the emulator is key for creating the illusion of real hardware.
> I'm unconvinced by the color changing case, which the C64 didn't have...
It's my hope they brought the individual who did this work in to help make the minimum changes necessary to accurately document the differences. These recreations are really quite nice.
I grew up hearing the coders and hackers of yore regaling tales of their youth, the days they invested in things like the commodore or the IBM PC. I was born at the end of the 90's and never touched any of those things and always felt like I missed out.
I've done a lot of work with the IBM i Series (AS400), which has an interface from that era, but no games.
Keep manually refreshing that AS400 screen! In the late 90s while I was in college, for a while I had a graveyard shift job running backups and printing shipping labels at a large retailer and most of the work was done on an AS400 and also SCO UNIX before they became a zombie copyright troll.
with the name "ultimate" plus the hints in the original video, will this use Gideon's ultimate64? and it includes a case, keyboard (maybe mechboard64?), and flash cassette -- all for less than the cost of an ultimate64 mainboard? pretty light on details but potentially an incredible deal.
This really scratches my itch. I love retro computing, the closer to the original hardware the better - but the one thing that gets in the way (and that can stay in the past!) are the horrible loading times. A new C64 is exactly what I need.
I have a somewhat modded C64 with JiffyDOS and an SD2IEC, and it loads everything really fast. Sometimes I miss the weird 1541 noises, but generally, it's a great combination.
I still have a C64 in my basement in case I need a nostalgia kick. A few years ago I set it all up and loaded a game. I was surprised at how slow it is and how bad the game was compared to how I remember it - so I boxed it up again and have no intention of setting it up again to keep my fond memories intact.
I have a feeling many who buy this product will ultimately do the same.
I had the opposite experience. I bought a C64 at a flea market and hooked it up to an old Sanyo TV I had found in a dumpster. Loaded up Time Pilot, Drop Zone, and H.E.R.O., and had an incredibly fun time playing them together with a date.
Sometimes the nostalgia doesn't kick in, and clearly many things were objectively bad in a way that hits differently now. I wouldn't want to sit long nights writing assembly code and battle bad sectors on floppy disks. But I still think it's a great little gaming computer.
I hear you about the slowness, I definitely do not miss it. The good news about retro devices is that games load instantly, and you can save memory snapshots.
As for the games... some are a pain to play today, but others are surprisingly good and the music is beyond cool. Of course, nostalgia is a big factor, but still...
I sure spent a lot of time with my c64 and the idea of having a new one in the exact same wrist-ruining form factor, except transparent so you can see that it's actually implemented via a tiny handful of modern chips, has absolutely zero appeal.
True, but it just doesn't hit the same nostalgia spot.
Emulators are all about running the software. This is more about the full package, you know? The breadbin in all its glory. Going clickety-clack with its keyboard. It brings back memories.
I own a TheC64 by RetroGames just for this. All the convenience of HDMI and instant loading software with the form factor of the C64 of my youth, with a working keyboard with PETSCII characters!
If you just want to play games, agreed, you just need VICE.
If the folks who bought the Commodore name 'Atari' this thing I will be disappointed. Not surprised, but disappointed. If this pans out its going to be awesome. Warily optimistic.
It's good to have some healthy skepticism, but everything I've seen has felt very legit and pragmatic. It's funny-sad that a lot of people feel THIS is a nostalgia cash-in when Jack Tramiel was one of the least technology-driven, emotive figures in the 8-bit era. I'm OK if they do what it takes to keep the spirit of the Commodore community alive.
Yup, the C64 still has a scene. Both of nostalgics enjoying old games, and of people making (and selling!) new games for it.
There are also communities for making C64 piel art and -- get this -- art doing entirely in PETSCII (sort of like ASCII art, but PETSCII has a more interesting set to work with).
What does "older men" mean? Bunch of people got their start in computing with Commodore 64s in the early 80s yes, but also mid 80s, late 80s, early 90s and even mid 90s. So people who were kids in the mid 90s also fall into this group, and I don't think they are old.
Like many people my age (ahem!) the Commodore 64 was my first computer and I loved it and it's responsible for my long software development career.
But I don't want that Commodore 64 today.
I want the Commodore 64 of 2025. A machine where middle schoolers can learn the basics of programming while having fun with graphics and sound. Maybe even have a simple 2D gaming engine built-in. I don't know. I want the spirit of the Commodore 64, not the actual machine itself.
> I want the Commodore 64 of 2025. A machine where middle schoolers can learn the basics of programming while having fun with graphics and sound. Maybe even have a simple 2D gaming engine built-in. I don't know. I want the spirit of the Commodore 64, not the actual machine itself.
Exactly. This is what I think every time I see one of these old revival projects. I don't want a Spectrum, C64, Atari ST, etc...we have those, they're fairly easy to acquire and renovate. And are more than capable of being run on a FPGA. And there are dozens of projects built around the same old 6502, Z80, etc.
Stop locking your perspective into the 80s to try to recapture that nostalgia.
No, give me a new "hobbyist" computer in the spirit of those days. Throw an ARM m-series/RISC-V/etc on it with some custom blitter/vdpu and sound ASICs and 512MB of RAM. Give it some easily accessible programming environment on ROM, with an option to baremetal with ASM, C, etc. Add a few slots that are MMAPed in. And let the hobbyist field run wild.
> No, give me a new "hobbyist" computer in the spirit of those days. Throw an ARM m-series/RISC-V/etc on it with some custom blitter/vdpu and sound ASICs and 512MB of RAM. Give it some easily accessible programming environment on ROM, with an option to baremetal with ASM, C, etc. Add a few slots that are MMAPed in. And let the hobbyist field run wild.
Isn't a pi awfully close to that, at least in spirit? For my 10 year-old's science project, I bought a trio of interesting sensors off amazon, showed her a diagram of the GPIO pins and a diagram of the sensor pins, explained how to map between the two, and had her draw it out with colored pencils.
Then I burned a fresh raspbian image onto a sd card, connected a keyboard, mouse, and tv, and helped her figure out how to read the GPIO pins in python. The vibe of the whole thing felt a lot like the old things we had in the 80s and early 90s, but more accessible because I didn't have to deal with weird serial/parallel junk or with putting together a PCB for the slots.
It does sound like this crew harbors ambitions of moving past nostalgia to embracing that spirit a little more, but I don't personally feel like that's lacking in the Pi ecosystem, at least...
> The vibe of the whole thing felt a lot like the old things we had in the 80s and early 90s
Except back then you were doing all the discovering and figuring stuff out without any help from your parents. At least that's the way it was in my circle of friends. When a 10-year-old is able to do everything you did without any assistance from an adult, then we'll have the spirit of the Commodore 64.
It’s similar on the hobbyist interest side, sure. But generally gathers more from the hardware hobbyists than software. This is because the Broadcom SoC is somewhat awful to do bare metal on (mostly due to anything beyond a framebuffer being mostly locked off), so you’re limited to using Linux for full capabilities.
Nothing wrong with that, but definitely a different environment than something like BASIC as your bootrom, or direct hardware poking you’d get from the old hobbyist machines.
I have always wanted to learn to build a (relatively modern) computer like the one you described:
- Some 32-bit CPU, whatever, anything that is a bit easy to program through C/ASM, just to make sure there is no weird kirks.
- Support keyboards, displays, mouse, etc., just the usual ones. So a lot of drivers.
- Some 256MB - 512MB memory should be good enough.
- Has an OS, some programming languages, some tools, a good editor, etc.
This is like the Ben Eater 8-bit computer in adrenaline. It is probably a LOT of work just to figure out how to source the correct components, and build the thing, then a LOT more work to write drivers for them, and MORE work to write OS and compilers and tools for them. We can't use Linux because it has memory protection all over the place. We need something that newbies can poke and peek into, and simply reset the CPU if something is wrong, just like the micro computers in the 70s/80s. We DO want capable compilers and interpreters (e.g. C/Python) and good tools (like, some editors that have good auto-complete at least).
It's a bit like building a pad or a mobile phone, but without all those commercial consideration. Nowadays, to build a pad or a mobile phone, if I'm not mistaken, one simply push Android into the chipsets and call it a day, which is not what I want. But what I want probably doesn't make $$ so no one is going to do it.
What is wrong with an raspberry Pi pico?
If you need more ram: https://jaycarlson.net/embedded-linux/ (just ignore the Linux part)
Yeah it works fine if we ignore the Linux part. Guess I might be thinking too much.
> Support keyboards, displays, mouse, etc., just the usual ones. So a lot of drivers.
You wouldn’t even need that if you released it as an all-in-one like the hobbyist machines of yore (C64, speccy, etc). Just give it a relatively decent cherry MX built-in with swappable keyblocks. Add a USB hub for HID devices and include a basic HID driver, and include HDMI.
That's what I want too. But I fear that even if such a machine existed, the spirit wouldn't be there. Just like no one forms bands or makes personal websites anymore.
The hardware is the easy part. But if you want a selection of software such as exists for the C64, that takes a lot more time and of course there’s no guarantee that it will ever come to pass.
If you’re trying to make yourself into a massive company off of it, sure the interest definitely doesn’t exist and you should forget it.
If you look at the amount of interest projects like the openpandora, the retro rereleases, etc get; there’s plenty enough for something to hack around on. You would just have to release it as a side/passion project with modest revenue projections.
I've been into 'retro computing' continuously since the 80s and there have been a variety of interesting retro focused machines like this launched over the last 15 years. They are mostly hobby projects but some have scaled up through crowd funding to be marginally successful. A big success in this market would be shipping a thousand units but few reach that level. I think the reason is that despite quite a bit of interest the market is fragmented into different groups with differing primary goals:
* Capture "the spirit" of an all-in-one, simple computer that boots to an accessible language.
* Recreate an actual 80s computer via software, FPGA emulation or compatible CPU. A major sub-group is those wanting support for physical 80s media which can include disks, cartridges and even tape.
Within these major groups are a variety of different requirements. A big one is whether the machine must support modern displays (HDMI) or authentic retro displays (CRTs). If you don't have a CRT then HDMI is a requirement, however inserting what was originally low-res analog composite video into a hi-res digital container involves some significant trade-offs and design complexity. It's not trivial or cheap to do well with high-quality and high-compatibility. Then there are those who split on whether modern connectivity and conveniences like Wifi, Ethernet and SD card media are mandatory, nice-to-haves or definite should-not-haves. Of course, those conveniences aren't much use without sufficient CPU power and resolution to support a modern browser and OS capable of reading modern media which involve more cost and potential compatibility issues.
The great thing is that those who are retro-interested now have a lot of good options ranging from OG hardware to software emulation, FPGA systems and all-new designs. My advice is to be clear on what experience you really want, the specific traits you care about and the various trade-offs and challenges those entail before diving in.
Isn't this basically a Raspberry Pi 400? https://www.raspberrypi.com/products/raspberry-pi-400/
I think the challenge is computers these days can do so much that tinkering with something like this no longer feels futuristic or cutting edge like a C=64 did back then.
Sure, a modern SBC repackaged in an all-in-one case can be a good option for most of the first group I mentioned. However, out of the box it doesn't boot to BASIC like an early 80s home computer so you'd need to configure a custom boot and choose a language. And even within that group there are some for who the simplicity of limited graphics, resolution and other capabilities is an important element, so they'd probably want to go further to something like auto-booting directly into a software emulation of an 80s computer.
For those who care about running retro software titles, software or FPGA emulation would be the minimum, however that doesn't help those who want support for retro physical media or peripherals, CRT displays or highly accurate emulation. You may not care about those things but for a significant part of the addressable market for machines like this, one or more of those things are a high priority. Which was my point, the retro-interested market looks pretty large but when you zoom in, you realize it's fragmented and that makes it challenging to design a device that appeals to enough buyers. Since the RPi 400 seems perfect to you, you probably don't care about it looking like a C64, however the folks behind this new device paid a lot to buy the Commodore brand name and logo (supposedly up to a million dollars). And that's before the plastic moulds, retro keyboard etc. For you, that may all be wasted money and effort. For others it might be a big part of the appeal.
It's certainly possible to make a retro computer that has HDMI, Wifi, Ethernet and SD cards and gets on the modern web but also has analog composite, S-video, and component output for CRTs, along with having a cartridge port, floppy drive, serial or parallel port and which runs period software with cycle-accuracy. However, that device is probably going to cost close to $1,000 and take a fair bit of time and expertise to create. I'm a hardcore retro-enthusiast and I'd certainly consider spending that kind of money but most people probably wouldn't. Worse... I'm not even in the market for such a wonder-machine because I already own over a hundred different models of retro computer along with analog composite, S-video and composite CRTs to use them (almost every 80s model of Commodore, Atari, Apple, Amiga, Sinclair, Amstrad and Radio Shack along with other more obscure brands).
The Mega65 was a stab at this idea - a self contained modernized version of the old 8-bit computer while trying to maintain backwards compatibility with C64 programs.
https://mega65.org
See also
https://www.commanderx16.com/
Which is based on the 6502-compatible 65C816 but used a simple banking scheme instead of the broken 24-bit address space that chip natively supports (no 24-bit index registers) The way video memory works in it is really clever and lets it really surpass 1980s machines in many ways.
My favorite retrocomputer though has to be
https://www.olimex.com/Products/Retro-Computers/AgonLight2/o...
which is priced right though it doesn't have the keyboard and instead based on the eZ80 which really does extend the Z-80 with 24-bit registers so that you can use all the RAM easily.
The guys behind Olimex are top chaps! Their products are not only affordable, also OpenSource as well! Nothing good came so far by the C= or Amiga copyrights...
I think a better comparison would be with e.g. the miSTer and the many cores its ecosystem maintains, all open source HDL.
There was no need to include a floppy drive though.
Also, Python would have been better than BASIC as the built-in default language.
I don't think Python is better than BASIC. It's more powerful, sure, but it's crazy complex and fussy. Wrong punctuation and your code doesn't work.
If you want Python just use modern laptop, no need to retro anything.
BASIC has command-like statements, no complexity like lambda, classes, modules, etc.
Are you remembering the same BASIC that I’m remembering? With fixed line numbers? Refactoring was near impossible. Spaghetti code was par for the course. You were forced to build everything twice or thrice if you wanted a final product that wasn’t embarrassing.
Just not having line numbers cooked in is a total game changer.
And no GOTO.
I had a C16, and later a C128D (and therefore a C64). The C64 had the most limited BASIC of them all, with v2.0. So many advanced features were hidden behind PEEK/POKE. With BASIC 3.5 on the C16, they added the RENUMBER command, which made refactoring much easier, and it had a SOUND command, despite having a much simpler DSP implementation. The C128 had BASIC v7.0, which included a sprite editor, and much more advanced SOUND command.
If they upgraded the C64's BASIC to 7.0, that would already make a lot of things much more accessible.
> With fixed line numbers? Refactoring was near impossible. Spaghetti code was par for the course.
Yup, even for the old 8-bit computers FORTH would've been a lot more elegant than BASIC. But back in the day BASIC came with highly valued conveniences such as a soft-float implementation that meant support for the "desk calculator" use case was available out of the box, and users could just go on from there.
There are many flavours of BASIC; some with line numbers and GOTO/GOSUB, some without line numbers and real subroutines. FreeBASIC for example doesn't have line numbers. It's similar to Fortran or COBOL, both of whom also started out with line numbers and GOTO-oriented programming. But no one uses those languages like that any more.
No idea what this BASIC looks like though; the documentation seems chaotic and hard to access. Just saying that BASIC does not necessarily mean the BASIC that you or I used back in the day. I also agree that you can do a hell of a lot better than Python to introduce programming to kids.
I mean it's a better language for middle-school kids. They shouldn't be concerned with refactoring.
Important thing about BASIC is that each "command" does a rather limited amount of "stuff". In that way it is kinda similar to assembly language.
Plenty of elementary and middle-school kids learned LOGO which is a vastly more elegant language than BASIC. (It's essentially a LISP with different syntax, the one thing that's inadvisable about it for modern purposes is its use of dynamic scope.)
I think understand of programming as a sequence of commands is necessary before you go to abstractions. BASIC's GOTO is a feature, not a bug: that's how assembly work.
As an adult I'd strongly prefer Lisp over Basic. But I appreciate Lisp or lambda calculus elegance after I spent some time with more basic kind of stuff. Going to higher abstractions right away won't have the same effect
Having a computer that boots directly into a built-in programming language is still compelling though.
It encourages the user to learning programming and develop their own apps.
Python would be the wrong choice. BASIC is the ultimate "batteries included" language. No weirdness hidden behind dynamic types and you can make full games with graphics and sounds (in most implementations) without installing a single external library. BASIC is feature-poor by design and beginners can quickly fully master it. And there are classic variants without line numbers (no need for GOTOs) for those who hate them.
IMHO, humanity is yet to build a better beginner language, at least if you look at the late BASICs such as QuickBASIC.
YMMV but I do welcome the floppy drive.
Besides being integral to the experience / faithful to the prototype C65, it is remarkably reliable storage media that's well-suited for this class of machine, which have very few KBs of RAM.
What you're describing sounds a lot like the OLPC XO.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OLPC_XO
In that regard, I almost feel like a new Atari 800-series would be better.
The C64 had good graphics and excellent sound but so much of it was behind a brick-wall learning curve of poking. Atari's native BASIC at least provided some rudimentary access. You want something where the user can get a win on day 1, or it's getting buried in the closet with the rock tumbler.
Or maybe if they packed in a super-extended BASIC ROM. But pretty quickly you end up wanting something with more modern flow control and structures, maybe closer to "Qbasic with sprite commands" and then you're probably demanding more than what can be reasonably asked of a 6510-class CPU.
>The C64 had good graphics and excellent sound but so much of it was behind a brick-wall learning curve of poking. Atari's native BASIC at least provided some rudimentary access. You want something where the user can get a win on day 1, or it's getting buried in the closet with the rock tumbler.
This was not my experience at all.
I started with an Atari 400 when I was 11, and there was little to no documentation about the machine. I took a BASIC programming class taught on a Vic 20 when I was 10 years old. But then I saved up and got an Atari for my 11th birthday. I cut my teeth on Atari Basic, but it seemed so limited to me. I wanted full access to all of the machine but there was simply no documentation my 11 year old self had available, the internet was not a thing, and there were no books about it at my local library in the early 1980s. The BASIC cartridge didn't really offer much in the way of using the machine to its full capacity.
Then I got a C64 and everything changed. The C64 manual I had included BASIC programming, as well as how to program the sound chip to make simple music and sound effects. There was a complete memory map of the C64 including all the chips, the VIC, the SID, the CIA chips - everything. All the pinouts for all the I/O ports were mapped out.
And in the back of the manual were all the opcodes for the CPU, with detailed information about how they work, A, X, and Y registers, status registers, program counter, address modes, etc, etc... it was absolutely fantastic how much was documented, literally everything about the computer. The book even had a full schematic of the C64 in the very back as a large fold-out poster. Atari had nothing like this.
It was like night and day compared to the very closed Atari platform. I quickly ate up BASIC on the C64 and moved right into assembly language, when I was 14. I got very into the European "demo scene", while being a teenager in America in the mid/late 1980s. Atari 8-bit just seemed like a toy compared to what was going on with the C64 in the world at the time.
https://archive.org/details/c64-programmer-ref/page/n425/mod...
The RM 800XL maybe of interest
https://revive-machines.com/index-en.html
I agree. I recently started exposing my kids to programming and I chose a C64 emulator. The BASIC REPL is so simple/limited that it doesn’t overwhelm the kids with irrelevant syntax (those can come later, if they are interested). The fact that a 1..100 loop can introduce a noticeable delay. You can literally see the computer working. Primitive graphics and sound provide immediate feedback which makes learning engaging and fun.
We used PICO-8. Worked great for that purpose.
Picotron (also by Lexaloffle) might be an even better match for those wanting a retro workstation as opposed to a retro game console.
https://www.lexaloffle.com/picotron.php
Tulip CC is the modern C64. The software is mostly fleshed out for audio apps right now, but feature for feature, it's doing the same kinds of thing, with the same eye to budget:
https://github.com/shorepine/tulipcc
I would argue that we have that today in the form of the Apple MacMini (https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/mac-mini) -- the Commodore 64 was priced at around $300 in 1984 or $950 in 2025 money. The basic model MacMini comes in at $600 today. For that you get a fully Unix system with a full development suite to build desktop/mobile/Unix apps out of the box. Every development platform is available (C/C++, Python, Swift, JavaScript, Java, Rust, etc.) on it. The expansion system is extremely simple also (USB C/Thunderbolt). Not to mention it is much smaller than a Commodore 64 and arguably more user friendly.
Some years ago I gifted a Kano system. https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/kano-computer-kit-touch...
that felt like that spirit.
This was great at the time, I feel it should of come with a 'computing partner doc' like a piece of paper with how to backup and restore with a second sd card, and links to stuff about censorware and what people think about certain places attached to the internet..
I saw one of these at a pawnshop with a $250 price tag and I think a chrome book can be had for less.
not sure what the current availability and pricing of PI type things are these days - but the kano kit was a perfect fit at the right time back then.
I think part of that spirit was not having the internet. You had the machine, a couple books and a handful of magazines. But more importantly an unstoppable desire to figure out how it worked. The internet would have been a distraction.
Have you seen the things going on with the C64 in the last 20 years?
https://www.pouet.net/prodlist.php?platform%5B0%5D=Commodore...
Some of it is astonishing given the limitations of the machine.
The technical mastery and creative problem solving going on here is what keeps the demoscene alive. The C64 is still going strong, new productions come out all the time.
And I can't think of a better machine for a kid today to start out with than an 8-bit machine. If they learn assembly language on a C64, they will have a far better understanding of how computers actually work than anyone taking a class in web or crypto or whatever they teach kids about computers today.
> I want the spirit of the Commodore 64, not the actual machine itself.
Why not have both?
You could buy this and you could setup EndlessOS:
https://www.endlessos.org/os
Based on Debian, but does not use apt. I'm impressed by the effort, but not fully convinced.
(disclaimer, I have maybe a bit too much of this retro hardware.. unhealthy amount, ahem).
Raspberry Pi 400 / 5 would be that.. but, in reality and pragmatically since it needs to be something widespread I'd argue it's actually a browser. In Chrome you hit Ctrl-Shift I and console is right there.
From their faq.
Is this all just nostalgia? Nostalgia is one of our two core pillars - alongside modern innovation. Like yin and yang, these forces balance and strengthen each other in that retro • futurism approach.
The commercial power of nostalgia is real - and it will help fuel and fund the development of modern, forward-facing products in turn. It’s a symbiotic cycle: retro inspires, modern sustains. Commodore isn’t returning. It’s evolving, with purpose.
They also mention that they explicitly wanted this - a state-of-the-art reimplementation of the old C64 - to be their first released product, which makes some sense. It's also the product where their Commodore trademark - the real value behind this new effort - is most relevant, shifting away from the old pattern where random products would be "Commodore" branded, with no real link to the company's history or to any plausible "retro futurism" vision.
Written by ChatGPT. The second paragraph is obviously AI slop.
This sentence is 100% AI generated: "It’s a symbiotic cycle: retro inspires, modern sustains. Commodore isn’t returning. It’s evolving, with purpose."
Nah, watch any of the retro recipes videos on youtube and that's more or less his default style of speaking/presenting.
The people behind this are a pretty known entity.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ke-Ao-CpI7E
Agreed it looks like slop, and it's IMO a bad sign. I think a big part of the appeal of old computers is the fact that they're simple enough for a single human to completely understand.
Generative AI is a black box that's impossible to completely understand. Using generative AI signals to me that whoever did it probably doesn't find any inherent value in understanding things, and sees understanding only as a means to an end. Old computers have little practical use, so this leaves nostalgia as the main appeal, and nostalgia has less stringent requirements.
I think something like blitzbasic with llm support to vibe code and generate sprite sheets would be awesome.
It’s called Emacs, not even joking
To kids these days, a laptop with a something like Roblox Studio on it is pretty magical. Most of their "laptop" exposure is with Chromebooks that only run school stuff, everything else is on consumption-focused tablets and phones that don't leave much room for creativity, or even basic customization.
I have a Commander X16 and my kid had fun doing that Basic infinite maze program, but after that, my dream was over :)
I get how they're using nostalgia, but it doesn't seem to be coming from a cynical place. The transformation of technology from a utility to a nuisance at best and a disease at worst, strikes a chord for me.
Computers used to be fun and yet require actual interest and effort, it's why I ended where I am. What a bait and switch.
It reads like Mark Fisher’s observation about capitalism absorbing all resistance. Resistance becomes the next market. So it’s doubly cynical as it’s a cash grab of sorts hoping to ride on everyone’s burnout from modern tech. I agree, it’d be better to just ride the nostalgia itself and let others come to their own conclusions about why they are nostalgic.
All that said I do miss this era of computing greatly where one could understand it inside out and that was encouraged. I loved the C64 demo scene in the 80s.
I've been watching the new CEO's videos for a few years. He seems like a genuine person who isn't cynical about this at all. I don't think it's a cash grab, but a real hope that a community and something wholesome can be created around this nostalgic company. Either way, it's never going to be a huge cash cow, only a quiet niche.
That’s cool and I hope it works out then. The C64 is my favorite computing device ever produced since it’s how I learned to program and introduced me to music trackers. The marketing made it feel like a cash grab since there is another wave of retro revival going on.
Its the cynical people who believe everything else is always cynical. If somebody wants to do a crash grab they could do crypto or some AI scam with much less effort.
> absorbing all resistance
Because its was not resistance in the first place ...
> hoping to ride on everyone’s burnout from modern tech
And with 'everybody' you mean a tiny group of nerds who know what a C64 is?
Ok? If you’re going to make accusations that I think everything is cynical for critiquing their marketing I don’t know what to tell you. People are allowed to do that.
I want is someone to fab real 6581 SID chips so I can do stuff like this and have it sound as it should.
10 FORL=54272T054295:POKEL,0:NEXT
15 POKE54296,15:TI$="000000"
20 POKE54277,255:POKE54278,255
25 POKE54284,255:POKE54285,255
30 POKE54276,17:POKE54283,17
40 FORA=8TO1STEP-1:FORB=ATO1STEP-1
45 T=TI+2952/B
50 POKE54273,3: POKE54272,A
55 POKE54288,3:POKE54279,A+B
60 PRINTA,A+B
70 IFTI<TTHEN70
80 NEXT:NEXT
90 POKE54276,16:POKE54283,16
There's a syntax error in line 10 (t0 instead of to).
Also, what's the source for this program? I tried it on VICE and failed miserably. Maybe something (else) was copied wrong? Or is it supposed to fail on emulators?
Absolutely love the SID chip. The clever way of imitating chord-based triads by just rapid arpeggiating on a single channel was super cool to me as kid.
Arpeggio was everywhere, doable on pretty much any sound chip.
I think what sets SID apart are things like high/low pass filters, finely adjustable PWM width and maybe even finely tunable pitch.
The SID chip is an analog semi-modular synth with digital control. The arpeggios unfortunately seem to be so heavily leaned on that it pretty much defines the chiptune sound, and those arpeggios could be played on lots of other systems, but the SID, when you dig into the beat frequencies and filters is a rich sonic world like no other.
Here is that BASIC beat frequency drone (no filter stuff) https://youtu.be/k2YZkSq2gcY
Wasn't Rob Hubbard one of the guys behind that trick?
I'm still looking for the 2025-2030 version of a kid's first computer. C64 and Apple ][ made sense back then because whatever the poor animation they provided back in the late 70s/early 80s are exciting ENOUGH for younger version of us. Back then ANY interaction is good enough. NES was the bang but it definitely requires a lot of imagination to match the sprites to the box arts. I think the key here is to force the kids to use imagination.
Actually I'm going to do an experiment on my soon to be 5-years-old son. I have exposed some cartoon shows to him, but none of them is very fancy. I gave him Curious George and Bluey, both fall more into the hand-drawn camp than the CG camp. I have never expose him to any games or mobile apps like TikTok. I'm going to expose NES games or C64 games to him and see if he is interested. Despite my respect to John Carmack, I'm always in the camp of "you don't need post-2000 graphics to make any genre interesting, even for FPS", and I always believe the advancement of graphics hurts games more than benefiting them.
[dead]
Was at a friend's place a few years ago. He had an original c64, tape drive, disk drive, okidata printer, and a trove of disks. We'd been friends since high school, but I think he'd stopped using his by then, and I was more of the computer guy (we bonded over guitars, not code).
This was just sitting in his garage. "Take it - take it all" he said. Then... was sort of forceful with it, and started putting it in my car. :)
I took it back home, and... realized I can't connect it to anything. And I'm not a hardware guy. I hate hacking on that sort of stuff. So I ended up giving it all to a friend who was getting in to retro stuff with his son. I think they got it working and connected up to something. I also gave him my C128.
I still have the original Commodore 'Prolog' and (IIRC) 'Forth' packaging somewhere in the office here. :)
Looking at these (and probably some other incarnations) I'm tempted to get one only because of the built in HDMI.
I've poked around with some emulators online and it's fun, but the combination of the original keyboard and shape plus HDMI might be enough to get me to commit. Probably just the original beige though.
If it is all original, you'll want to be careful with the power supply. It's known to fail in a way that over voltages. Replacement ones can be made or bought relatively inexpensively.
That was also in the back of my mind. Even back in the 80s, I remember those bricks being a source of heat and... shock sometimes. I'm just not a hardware guy, so gave it to someone who I think loves tinkering with that sort of stuff... :)
Its so funny you mention the color. Looking at the image on the website, I was struck by the fact that beige could strike a visceral exciting nostalgia reaction in me. I mean, its beige FFS, the ultimate "boring" color :) I went from a totally disengaged / disinterested teen in school to paying out of my own pocket (I think $50 at the time) to take a course taught be Steve Punter in the basement of a library on the other side of Toronto on 6502 assembler -- in the summer!
Am I the only one who gets sad when looking at the site? The resentment of modern computing and interconnected life feels extremely wrong with a Commodore brand on it.
Don't get me wrong, I would love to have the box, but to me commodore means the complete opposite. It was the tech that inspired me to start learning and later building complex systems. The evolution of tech after this machine did not steal anything from me, but enriched my life both financially and otherwise.
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Big props for the website footer: "Only essential cookies here - no tracking, no popups, just focus-friendly computing the Commodore way."
Good intentions, but the site is hosted by Wix which add their own trackers.
While I did get to use a Vic20 in school I did not have a c64 but my friend did. At home I had an Apple IIe (which I still have) and it was great but boy was I jealous of all those color C64 games and also the modem they had for it! I didn't get a modem until I switched to a PC in 1989.
Someone broke into my house and stole my Vic20 and tape deck; we used the insurance money to buy a C64 and disc drive. At the time it was very tramatic, but turned out to be a big blessing!
In a way I'd just have preferred for them to slap an official Commodore branding on the Mega65, which is IMHO a much more compelling and amazing product:
https://mega65.org/
Huge labour of love, and far more interesting.
I find it a bit of a shame it’s so expensive though. By far, the most important aspect of emulation is the physical experience, from typing on an accurate recreation, to inserting floppies, to hearing the sounds and feeling the vibration. The mega65 could be a shell with a small ARM board inside and I’d be happy, the same way I am with my The64 Maxi.
Pretty inexpensive? I went ahead and pulled the trigger on the pre-order.
I have a couple of KIM-1 "clones" and enjoy them as well. I feel like, in my old age, whenever that comes, I will enjoy them even more. Diving at long last deep into assembly....
Earlier in the day the number of preorders / total number of systems available was shown on the order page. That seems to have been removed now. Presales may be going slower than hoped.
I get the retro thing... But...
How about a new operating system with backwards compatibility that runs on modern arm hardware...
https://www.ami64.com/product-page/the-c64-maxi
and
https://myretrocomputer.com/
Neither of those are what I said.
I don't care about a keyboard. I don't care about retro computing.
What I care about is a modern amiga operating system, running on modern hardware.
And make it backwards compatible for the retro computing crowd.
I hate to break it to you all, but retro hardware is a novelty, nothing more.
> modern amiga operating system
This is an oxymoron.
If retro hardware is a novelty then so is retro software. So is retro inspired software. It's novelty all the way down.
You can emulate anything; you don't need backwards compatibility. Both of those hardware devices are modern except for the software.
commodore OS vision is sort-of a "modern amiga OS".
https://myretrocomputer.com/commodore-os-vision/
it's mostly just a skin on Linux Mint, though.
A nice emulated alternative used to be TheC64. I own one, not sure if it's available at a reasonable price anymore. Not a real Commodore -- it's running a version of VICE in an ARM chip -- but with the actual form factor of a breadbin C64 and with a working keyboard, which brings back memories!
You can play games and even program (basic, assembly, etc) using a real keyboard. Pretty cool!
I like this is hardware based rather than emulated. However, I'm unconvinced by the color changing case, which the C64 didn't have...
I think it hits a sweet spot where the physical experience is close enough (where would you get an HDMI CRT monitor?). I maintain the physical interaction with the emulator is key for creating the illusion of real hardware.
> I'm unconvinced by the color changing case, which the C64 didn't have...
They have beige.
Cool, I didn't realize they had beige! The transparent/color case seems out of place to me.
Wow, downvotes for mentioning an emulated alternative that also physically looks like a C64? I didn't expect a reddit-like response from HN :(
Grabbed a preorder, the Beige one seems like a legitimately good deal at 300 USD; and it comes with a spiral bound user manual!
Is there any way to see what the manual contains ? It would be great to have a programming tutorial like the original.
You can always print up one of the remastered C64 Users / Programmers Reference Guides on Lulu. See here: https://pickledlight.blogspot.com/p/commodore-64-guides.html
It's my hope they brought the individual who did this work in to help make the minimum changes necessary to accurately document the differences. These recreations are really quite nice.
No idea unfortunately, just saw it listed in the "what's in the box" section.
Wasn’t the Commodore logo and name sold recently for “seven figures”?
Is this the same folks?
The promo video [1] is on the new Commodore CEO's YouTube channel, so it must be.
The PCB looks like a rebranded "Ultimate 64" FPGA board [2], which has been out in a couple of iterations for a few years.
1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2fGP59mJ5M
2. https://ultimate64.com/
I grew up hearing the coders and hackers of yore regaling tales of their youth, the days they invested in things like the commodore or the IBM PC. I was born at the end of the 90's and never touched any of those things and always felt like I missed out.
I've done a lot of work with the IBM i Series (AS400), which has an interface from that era, but no games.
Keep manually refreshing that AS400 screen! In the late 90s while I was in college, for a while I had a graveyard shift job running backups and printing shipping labels at a large retailer and most of the work was done on an AS400 and also SCO UNIX before they became a zombie copyright troll.
SNAKE/400 Play snake against your AS/400
https://github.com/projectvulcan/snake400
Not sure where they were going with LEDs on a nostalgia device but glad they offer beautiful beige: https://www.commodore.net/product-page/commodore-64-ultimate...
with the name "ultimate" plus the hints in the original video, will this use Gideon's ultimate64? and it includes a case, keyboard (maybe mechboard64?), and flash cassette -- all for less than the cost of an ultimate64 mainboard? pretty light on details but potentially an incredible deal.
In going to follow this project closely. This is looking like a case of aiming for the moon and actually getting it.
Let's see!
They at least have some cool technical advisors. And a "Chief Tramiel Officer".
This really scratches my itch. I love retro computing, the closer to the original hardware the better - but the one thing that gets in the way (and that can stay in the past!) are the horrible loading times. A new C64 is exactly what I need.
I have a somewhat modded C64 with JiffyDOS and an SD2IEC, and it loads everything really fast. Sometimes I miss the weird 1541 noises, but generally, it's a great combination.
I hope the original hardware of retro systems will be in production again someday.
I still have a C64 in my basement in case I need a nostalgia kick. A few years ago I set it all up and loaded a game. I was surprised at how slow it is and how bad the game was compared to how I remember it - so I boxed it up again and have no intention of setting it up again to keep my fond memories intact.
I have a feeling many who buy this product will ultimately do the same.
I had the opposite experience. I bought a C64 at a flea market and hooked it up to an old Sanyo TV I had found in a dumpster. Loaded up Time Pilot, Drop Zone, and H.E.R.O., and had an incredibly fun time playing them together with a date.
Sometimes the nostalgia doesn't kick in, and clearly many things were objectively bad in a way that hits differently now. I wouldn't want to sit long nights writing assembly code and battle bad sectors on floppy disks. But I still think it's a great little gaming computer.
I hear you about the slowness, I definitely do not miss it. The good news about retro devices is that games load instantly, and you can save memory snapshots.
As for the games... some are a pain to play today, but others are surprisingly good and the music is beyond cool. Of course, nostalgia is a big factor, but still...
I sure spent a lot of time with my c64 and the idea of having a new one in the exact same wrist-ruining form factor, except transparent so you can see that it's actually implemented via a tiny handful of modern chips, has absolutely zero appeal.
I'm sorta turned off that it doesn't include the joysticks.. and they are $40 each!
some backstory
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ke-Ao-CpI7E
Cool idea, but I could just run a Commodore 64 emulator on my PC these days.
True, but it just doesn't hit the same nostalgia spot.
Emulators are all about running the software. This is more about the full package, you know? The breadbin in all its glory. Going clickety-clack with its keyboard. It brings back memories.
I own a TheC64 by RetroGames just for this. All the convenience of HDMI and instant loading software with the form factor of the C64 of my youth, with a working keyboard with PETSCII characters!
If you just want to play games, agreed, you just need VICE.
I hope they’ll add a version with the C64C design down the line.
I want one !
10 PRINT "POOPY PANTS"
20 GOTO 10
RUN
As a kid, when we went shopping at K-mart, I would hangout at the computer department while parents shopped and did stuff like this on the C64. hehe
10?"POOPY PANTS! ";:RUN
Imagine coupling this with this IPS screen:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/checkmate1500mini/retro...
(Stephen Jones' project - he also has Commodore background, IIRC)
For some reason this is not linking to what I expected…
Edit: I think this is where you meant to link: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/checkmate1500mini/retro...
That display with a custom C= 1702 bezel would be great, though perhaps 15-17" for a better aesthetic match to the C= 64 chassis.
If only if it was an actual CRT, rather than a LCD on a retro-style case.
Instead, I have to recommend the OSSC / OSSC Pro, with your favourite modern display.
If the folks who bought the Commodore name 'Atari' this thing I will be disappointed. Not surprised, but disappointed. If this pans out its going to be awesome. Warily optimistic.
Is Thomas Middledich (the central character in the TV show Silicon Valley) really the Chief Creative Officer?
Jeri Ellsworth as Technical Advisor is also a solid member of the C64 community.
It's good to have some healthy skepticism, but everything I've seen has felt very legit and pragmatic. It's funny-sad that a lot of people feel THIS is a nostalgia cash-in when Jack Tramiel was one of the least technology-driven, emotive figures in the 8-bit era. I'm OK if they do what it takes to keep the spirit of the Commodore community alive.
Looks like they are using (are going to use?) her FPGA re-implementation.
I am sorry, but people are still using Commodore 64 these days?
There are even people who develop new games for the C64. And there is still an active demo scene I think.
Yes, there is a very active demo scene, and frankly the people coding them are wizards.
But not just the coders, the artists (visual/audio) are also wizards.
Yup, the C64 still has a scene. Both of nostalgics enjoying old games, and of people making (and selling!) new games for it.
There are also communities for making C64 piel art and -- get this -- art doing entirely in PETSCII (sort of like ASCII art, but PETSCII has a more interesting set to work with).
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What does "older men" mean? Bunch of people got their start in computing with Commodore 64s in the early 80s yes, but also mid 80s, late 80s, early 90s and even mid 90s. So people who were kids in the mid 90s also fall into this group, and I don't think they are old.
Ironic that the parent to your post calls out "old men" but sounds about as grumpy as you can get. They are right though; they don't get it.
we are 54 years old
GenZ (the smartphone generation) are adults today. Early GenZ are even in their late 20s.
You are old, buddy.