From what I’ve heard, the shell of Windsurf was purchased for their certifications. So all the staff except a single digit few (the ones who do the compliance certification work) will probably be laid off in the not-too-distant future, regardless of whether they take the buyout.
So everyone should take the it, rather than get worked to death and then unceremoniously RIF’d in a months.
It's not just SOC2[1], they can do military contracting work.
> Windsurf delivers AI-powered coding solutions built for federal agencies, contractors, and system integrators. FedRAMP High authorized and compliant with DoD IL5 and ITAR
If not offered competitive pay and sometimes founder-preference-equivalent stock, it's stupid to volunteer to be an eager slave on perpetual artificial timelines and crash schedules for peanuts.
Shit like this is why I'm grateful for the worker rights that were paid for with blood in the more civilized parts of the world during the 19th and early 20th century. At least the US seems to be civilized enough that the CEO isn't immediately dragged out to the street to hang from the next traffic light - but maybe that's part of the problem ;)
As a hiring manager, I _vastly_ prefer hiring someone that values work-life balance over this grind culture bullshit. YMMV, but in my experience, the folks that care about balance tend to be more focused and productive during the hours they are working.
Of course, exceptional circumstances exist where long hours are required. Not disputing that. But making that the default for the company culture is insane.
>> Of course, exceptional circumstances exist where long hours are required
Sorry, but despite your best intentions, even those long hours are wrong and unnecessary. It's the leadership's planning skills and inability to take responsibility of the exceptional circumstances. In such a situation good leadership just cuts scope without flinching and reflects to avoid a repeat.
I’m really only talking about existential threats to the business and things of that ilk. 99% of the things people consider to be “exceptional” are not.
I don’t think it’s quite that black and white. If it’s a matter of “we’re going to be insolvent if we don’t hit this deadline”, and you want to keep getting paid, long hours can be justified. That’s not to say it’s not a failure of leadership that led to that situation, but I really am talking about exceptional circumstances, not arbitrarily-imposed deadlines.
It shouldn't be possible to do this. We shouldn't let companies save themselves by doing this to their workers. Those companies should just go away. It's not the 1800s anymore.
And if the company is in that bad of shape, you’re going to be out of business anyway soon as did the startup I worked for from 2008-2011.
That’s where the whole always being prepared for the shit to hit the fan comes in - having a strong network, enough liquid savings to cover a gap of unemployment, a resume that’s updated at least quarterly, a longer form career document, up to date skillset…
I have never once in 27 years (3 years after my first job) been stressed enough about losing my job to overwork myself and I’ve worked at the shittiest BigTech company (you know the one based in Seattle) where they love to overwork you.
The major thing that put John Carmack at the top of his field, even more than his extreme intelligence, was his unrelenting grindset. He would work days and nights, often taking a weekend and locking himself in a hotel room, to solve a problem. He has said in interviews that unless you work those 12+ hour days you just aren't going to write world-class software.
If you really want to develop on the cutting edge, you need a lot more than smarts. You have to have that dog in you. That fire in your belly that makes you obsessed, consumed with your work and solving the problems you set out to solve. If you don't... you're gonna lose out to someone who does. Go sling Java for a bank or insurance company, then, if you want to punch out at 5.
Scott Wu has that dog in him. It's reasonable for him to expect the same of his employees.
I don't really understand this. Surely working 8 hour days just means that it takes you 50% longer to write the same software (in reality less than that since I don't imagine you will be working at peak efficiency in hour 12).
Passion is a different thing and I agree you need passion you be the best. While there is clearly a correlation between people with passion and people willing to work more, it don't see why someone can't be passionate and also have other interests or responsibilities outside of work.
So many counter examples. Who wrote the unreal engine, or unity, or khtml, or Vim. How many people worked a regular 40 hour week at id Software?
This kind of thinking is a disease and a race to the bottom. I don't think we should stop people from doing it, but we certainly shouldn't reward them, in the market or otherwise.
John Carmack is highly successful in software and has a poor work-life balance. Doesn't mean there's causation between the two.
If there's an emergency, sure, work 12 hour days until it's fixed. Maybe if you're really in the zone, go ahead and keep working for 12 hours once in a while.
But, being behind schedule is not an emergency. And if the emergency continues for more than a couple days, it's a situation, not an emergency. 12 hours of focused work is hard to do. And if it's not focused, might as well punch out at 5, live your life outside of work, get some rest, maybe let problems marinate, and come back tomorrow.
“In the zone” is I think the most analogous piece to the CEO/Founder mindset. When I was in grad school I worked 12 hour days because I wanted to. Not because of an advisor or out of fear or anything, I just thought the material was fascinating and I wanted to learn as much as I could.
As a founder, I think there’s a similar incentive to work all day every day, not just because of the potential payoff, but also because you love it and it is your life. It is unrealistic to expect the same intrinsic passion from employee #30, much less employee #300. They don’t have the ownership, both financially and spiritually. It’s not their baby.
Relentless grinding and going well above and beyond make sense when you capture a significant portion of the upside (e.g co founder, or 'well known' tech guru like Carmack).
Grinding and hustling _without_ participating proportionally in the upside is naivete at best and foolishness at worst.
> “We don’t believe in work-life balance—building the future of software engineering is a mission we all care so deeply about that we couldn’t possibly separate the two,” he wrote, per the outlet. “We know that not everyone who joined Windsurf had signed up to join Cognition where we spend 6 days at the office and clock 80+ hour weeks.”
996, American Edition, is almost complete.
Thanks, Elon! /s
I hope everyone takes the bait while they still can. Absolutely repugnant behavior.
They should all take the buyout.
From what I’ve heard, the shell of Windsurf was purchased for their certifications. So all the staff except a single digit few (the ones who do the compliance certification work) will probably be laid off in the not-too-distant future, regardless of whether they take the buyout.
So everyone should take the it, rather than get worked to death and then unceremoniously RIF’d in a months.
Are certifications really that hard to get that it's easier to purchase a company which already has them? Windsurf isn't a bank, anybody can get Soc 2
It's not just SOC2[1], they can do military contracting work.
> Windsurf delivers AI-powered coding solutions built for federal agencies, contractors, and system integrators. FedRAMP High authorized and compliant with DoD IL5 and ITAR
[1] https://windsurf.com/enterprise/government
If not offered competitive pay and sometimes founder-preference-equivalent stock, it's stupid to volunteer to be an eager slave on perpetual artificial timelines and crash schedules for peanuts.
Shit like this is why I'm grateful for the worker rights that were paid for with blood in the more civilized parts of the world during the 19th and early 20th century. At least the US seems to be civilized enough that the CEO isn't immediately dragged out to the street to hang from the next traffic light - but maybe that's part of the problem ;)
My reflections -
Windsurf Paradox: When Acquisition Looks Like Extraction
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/windsurf-paradox-when-acquisi...
6 days a week for 80+ hours is 14 hour days. With commuting that’s all your waking hours. Who is working here?
Hence the advice to live at work.
Yeah, I’d be taking the buyout.
As a hiring manager, I _vastly_ prefer hiring someone that values work-life balance over this grind culture bullshit. YMMV, but in my experience, the folks that care about balance tend to be more focused and productive during the hours they are working.
Of course, exceptional circumstances exist where long hours are required. Not disputing that. But making that the default for the company culture is insane.
>> Of course, exceptional circumstances exist where long hours are required
Sorry, but despite your best intentions, even those long hours are wrong and unnecessary. It's the leadership's planning skills and inability to take responsibility of the exceptional circumstances. In such a situation good leadership just cuts scope without flinching and reflects to avoid a repeat.
edit: typo
I’m really only talking about existential threats to the business and things of that ilk. 99% of the things people consider to be “exceptional” are not.
There are no exceptional circumstances where management should require you to work long hours
I don’t think it’s quite that black and white. If it’s a matter of “we’re going to be insolvent if we don’t hit this deadline”, and you want to keep getting paid, long hours can be justified. That’s not to say it’s not a failure of leadership that led to that situation, but I really am talking about exceptional circumstances, not arbitrarily-imposed deadlines.
It shouldn't be possible to do this. We shouldn't let companies save themselves by doing this to their workers. Those companies should just go away. It's not the 1800s anymore.
That is arbitrary imposition though.
Working more hours wouldn't make the situation any better. In that case it would decrease quality of life.
If you're in that position you should still work your 40, but you need to just get better.
And if the company is in that bad of shape, you’re going to be out of business anyway soon as did the startup I worked for from 2008-2011.
That’s where the whole always being prepared for the shit to hit the fan comes in - having a strong network, enough liquid savings to cover a gap of unemployment, a resume that’s updated at least quarterly, a longer form career document, up to date skillset…
I have never once in 27 years (3 years after my first job) been stressed enough about losing my job to overwork myself and I’ve worked at the shittiest BigTech company (you know the one based in Seattle) where they love to overwork you.
Total garbage move & good disclosure/warning of future work culture.
Open source really has shown how you do not need so much cruft/guilt-tripping to build on top of good models.
How sad is it to over work folks & be proud of it, sure if Cognition equity is going to the trash just as Windsurf's lol, the irony of all this grind.
Is the logic that working with AI will need grind, waiting for the burnout blogs to show up here in some time.
The major thing that put John Carmack at the top of his field, even more than his extreme intelligence, was his unrelenting grindset. He would work days and nights, often taking a weekend and locking himself in a hotel room, to solve a problem. He has said in interviews that unless you work those 12+ hour days you just aren't going to write world-class software.
If you really want to develop on the cutting edge, you need a lot more than smarts. You have to have that dog in you. That fire in your belly that makes you obsessed, consumed with your work and solving the problems you set out to solve. If you don't... you're gonna lose out to someone who does. Go sling Java for a bank or insurance company, then, if you want to punch out at 5.
Scott Wu has that dog in him. It's reasonable for him to expect the same of his employees.
I don't really understand this. Surely working 8 hour days just means that it takes you 50% longer to write the same software (in reality less than that since I don't imagine you will be working at peak efficiency in hour 12).
Passion is a different thing and I agree you need passion you be the best. While there is clearly a correlation between people with passion and people willing to work more, it don't see why someone can't be passionate and also have other interests or responsibilities outside of work.
So many counter examples. Who wrote the unreal engine, or unity, or khtml, or Vim. How many people worked a regular 40 hour week at id Software?
This kind of thinking is a disease and a race to the bottom. I don't think we should stop people from doing it, but we certainly shouldn't reward them, in the market or otherwise.
Cognition pivoted from a crypto company. The only thing he's "consumed with" is getting rich.
Get real.
Carmack owned the frigging company. Owners are free to put as many hours into their company as they want, just don't expect employees to do the same.
John Carmack is highly successful in software and has a poor work-life balance. Doesn't mean there's causation between the two.
If there's an emergency, sure, work 12 hour days until it's fixed. Maybe if you're really in the zone, go ahead and keep working for 12 hours once in a while.
But, being behind schedule is not an emergency. And if the emergency continues for more than a couple days, it's a situation, not an emergency. 12 hours of focused work is hard to do. And if it's not focused, might as well punch out at 5, live your life outside of work, get some rest, maybe let problems marinate, and come back tomorrow.
“In the zone” is I think the most analogous piece to the CEO/Founder mindset. When I was in grad school I worked 12 hour days because I wanted to. Not because of an advisor or out of fear or anything, I just thought the material was fascinating and I wanted to learn as much as I could.
As a founder, I think there’s a similar incentive to work all day every day, not just because of the potential payoff, but also because you love it and it is your life. It is unrealistic to expect the same intrinsic passion from employee #30, much less employee #300. They don’t have the ownership, both financially and spiritually. It’s not their baby.
Relentless grinding and going well above and beyond make sense when you capture a significant portion of the upside (e.g co founder, or 'well known' tech guru like Carmack).
Grinding and hustling _without_ participating proportionally in the upside is naivete at best and foolishness at worst.
Yeah, he did that BECAUSE HE WANTED TO. Very different from a CEO setting that pace.
[dead]
I'd only have to read about halfway through that email before I accepted the offer if I was one of the acquired Windsurf employees lol
They are probably in trouble
From TFA:
> “We don’t believe in work-life balance—building the future of software engineering is a mission we all care so deeply about that we couldn’t possibly separate the two,” he wrote, per the outlet. “We know that not everyone who joined Windsurf had signed up to join Cognition where we spend 6 days at the office and clock 80+ hour weeks.”
996, American Edition, is almost complete.
Thanks, Elon! /s
I hope everyone takes the bait while they still can. Absolutely repugnant behavior.