You've got a 16 inch Laptop, why are the arrow keys so tiny! And where's the PgUp PgDn Home End Insert Delete cluster? I wish a design-based shop like Framework would have some leadership in the keyboard area. This is why I have been exclusively Thinkpads for my last 3 laptops.
Something more niche is that I also enjoy the mouse buttons above the trackpad, I can move with the thumb and click with a finger.
The keyboards have full NKRO support and are fully mappable with QMK firmware, plus they offer blank key caps AND a macro or numpad input module. That feels like plenty of leadership to me - that's unheard of in any other laptop. Can't please everyone I guess.
Key remapping is not a feature that you need hardware support for and neither are macros - both can be done in the OS and/or user-space software. Different prints on key caps are also not important at all since you shouldn't need them in the first place and hardly a response to someone being unhappy with the physical keyboard layout. So basically you're saying that because Framework already provides the easy parts that the user could already do in software now no one is allowed to complain about the physical layout that users cannot alter.
If they designed their keyboard ergonomically, they wouldn't need numpad modules. But yes, can't please everyone, too many people with low standards easily pleasable
> And where's the PgUp PgDn Home End Insert Delete cluster?
I'm typing this comment on a first gen framework 16 keyboard. It's the same layout as the second gen in OP, where PgUp/PgDown are bound to fn+KeyUp fn+KeyDown and Home/End are bound to fn+KeyLeft fn+KeyRight.
I actually prefer the bindings over dedicated buttons since if I need to use home/end, I'm probably also going to need to go to the previous/next line with the up/down keys.
Likewise, I would kill for gaps between Esc/F1, F4/F5, and F8/F9. ThinkPads do this although it is very subtle.
The gaps let you use the the function keys by feel rather than looking at them. They tend to be mapped in debuggers so hitting the wrong key is a big deal.
I actually don't mind the smaller arrow keys as again, they make it easier to drive by feel rather than by looking.
My fantasy for the Laptop 16 keyboard: Optional taller hinges and thicker bezel.
Think about it... Replacement hinges that separate the upper and lower shell by an extra 1/8-1/4" plus a thicker bezel to fill that gap. Suddenly (at the cost of a thicker laptop, for those of us who don't mind) you have extra space under the screen for longer key throw, contoured key caps, trackpoint, arrow keys that overlap the lower deck to allow a proper inverted-T layout, etc. Maybe even possible to retrofit old ThinkPad keyboards in there.
At least the arrow keys are all the same size, unlike that super common awful design where the left and right keys are twice the size of the up and down keys.
My last 3 laptops have also been Thinkpads. In addition to the mouse buttons above the trackpad, I also enjoy Thinkpad's trackpoint. Too bad Framework doesn't offer any mouse buttons and trackpoint on their keyboards, otherwise I might have considered them.
Same here. I've been using Lenovo/ThinkPads for the last 12 years mainly because of the pointer. It's perfect for programming. I'm more productive and focused when I keep my hands on the home row all the time. I don't see myself ever going back to a touchpad.
The company actually put a video out a yesterday or the day before about adding a trackpoint - they're open to the idea, but they're all too tall! They actually tried to add it, but it always put pressure on the screen because their keyboards are too low-profile to accommodate one.
I watched that video yesterday. Too bad. I'm glad they have looked into it at least. But too bad that Lenovo is able to build laptops with a trackpoint but not them. I don't see myself using a touchpad again if I can avoid it, so I'm afraid I will keep using ThinkPads for the foreseeable future.
> Something more niche is that I also enjoy the mouse buttons above the trackpad, I can move with the thumb and click with a finger.
This logic is why I like the tiny arrow keys. I find it pretty easy to move my pinky over and tap one of those keys. With full size keys, I find that doesn't really work.
No, this is something terrible the modern thinkpads have. My 2018 era thinkpads have the pg up/down arrow keys and a regular full width keyboard. That's what I want, anyway.
I mean, they made their keyboard swappable, with open-source firmware. If you are passionate enough, you can make (and sell) a replacement that solves these issues.
I think "well just make the PR yourself" comments are too reductionist myself, but in this case Framework does have space for 3rd party components in the marketplace. I don't think it'd be crazy to imagine some custom keyboards will appear there.
Framework 16 is a collection of modules, so I think complaining about the modules is fair game, but it could also be seen as a basis/standard that isn't expected to fit everyone's needs, but fit maybe 90% and allow other people to make the customizations they need easier, in which case complaining about they arrow keys on a single component does feel a bit trivial.
I'm glad the AMD GPU option still exists, I don't have great experience with NVIDIA on Linux. The rest of the upgrades, like the new top cover and keyboard, are very welcome
With the advent of Steam deck and Valve putting time and effort into AMD GPU drivers the AMD GPU is really the best option for Linux when it comes to general desktop stuff and gaming.
The days of Nvidia proprietary drivers being a safe bet is long gone. Especially for any sort of Wayland desktop, but it still applies to X11.
Intel drivers should be good as well, since they use the same Mesa code base.
With the ROCm stuff no longer depending on AMD Pro then there is not going to be any reason to step away from the default GPU drivers provided by your distro, provided they are relatively new.
While I am sure that there are still going to be professional-grade proprietary apps that recommend Nvidia... for most of us the only reason to actually go and choose Nvidia on Linux is because of CUDA. And, personally, I would rather lease time on the cloud or have a second GPU work horse PC separate from my desktop for that.
Unfortunately Nvidia is, by far, the most popular option for Windows users. Over 4:1 ratio according to Steam statistics.
So most new Linux users are still going to have to suffer through dealing with their GPU drivers.
> Intel drivers should be good as well, since they use the same Mesa code base.
They use the same front end but that says very little about the quality of the overall driver. Performance is mostly determined by the shader compiler and other hardware-specific parts which obviously differ between Intel and AMD.
I came to say the same thing. In the late 2010s I ran Linux on a work-issued Lenovo P50 with a Nvidia Quadro M2000M. It was such a miserable experience that I swore to never own another NVIDIA product again.
Given both Framework and NVIDIA's checkered histories around Linux driver support, I see no reason to revisit that, but it is interesting to see the voices in this thread with positive NVIDIA experience.
I said in another comment but exact same experience here (though about a decade later), same laptop and gpu. It's a shame because the P50 is so nice otherwise.
Maybe its just a problem with older Nvidia gpu's, but its not a gamble I want to take
It'd be nice if I could upgrade my old Framework into this spec. Infinitely upgradeable is nice on a per product line basis. But new product lines still lead to obsolescence and in this case regret.
That's exactly my point. When I bought the 13 I figured there would be these kinds of upgrades down the road. You're right to say that was stupid and it was. And next there will be the framework 17, a 16 that's not backwards compatible or something?
Like the other commenter mentioned, you can upgrade the 13". It's pretty common for laptops to come in two classes: smaller with a focus on portability and larger with a focus on performance.
There's a reason why a lot of us sat on the sidelines and were looking forward to the 16". There is no slippery slope here, the differentiated product lines 100% make sense.
Edit: there is another class I could see making sense - desktop replacement. Those chassis' tend to be pretty chunky because they put desktop parts into a laptop. Think 10 lb laptop with a battery that lasts 20-30 minutes. But I'm not sure if the market is large enough for them to pursue it.
You can hardly expect Framework to reconfigure the physical structure of your laptop to support a new GPU card when the device didn't have one to begin with.
You seem to be looking for something to complain about.
The 13" is upgradeable, just not in the same way the 16" is. It shouldn't be surprising that you can fit more stuff in a chassis for a 16" laptop than an 13" laptop, not to mention it's harder to deal with thermal issues in a 13" laptop. While it's not unheard of, it's much less common to see a dGPU in a 13" laptop, and Framework is no exception there.
I've upgraded my Framework 13 a bunch already since I bought it in 2022, and will hopefully continue to do so for years.
I think you are making up a scenario that is not real.
You assume Framework will just abandon models willy nilly and make slight model line changes to break compatibility like moving from 16” to 17”, but in reality they have no track record of doing that.
The original 13” model has been around for 5+ years and it’s been 100% forward and backward compatible through multiple iterations of parts. Framework has never discontinued a product line.
As framework doesn't produce their own hardware, they're also forced to live with the reality that generations are also bound by the whims of the producers.
E.g sockets and chipsets change and will force incompatible changes, no matter how much framework would like to keep things stable.
Not sure what you mean by "produce". Nearly no PC/laptop brand actually manufactures their own hardware.
Framework does work with ODMs (Compal, I believe, is their main one?) to design mainboards for their chassis, which are designed specifically for Framework. It's not like they just take an off-the-shelf design and build it without any modifications.
And yes, chipsets change. (A "socket" changing isn't really a thing when we're talking about a laptop where the CPU/SoC is soldered in.) Generally this isn't a problem, though: as long as you can design something that physically fits in the chassis and supports the features you want, you're fine.
The socket still has a significant impact, even if the CPU is soldered on. It puts constraints on where things can be.
I believe the framework CEO himself mentioned in an interview how the chipset and socket are kinda at the core of designing the whole laptop, because it necessitates the placement of the cooling and all other components. I sadly didn't bookmark that YouTube video, so I cannot provide a link however
And fwiw, Apple is the only company that could make their laptops fully compatible and upgradeable, because they've got the relevant stack under their own control. Sadly, they're not interested in reducing ewaste, as that would mean less profit for them
It's so weird to hear people who have problems with NVIDIA GPUs on Linux, because for me it's always been the opposite. I have had problems with AMD but never with NVIDIA.
They were referencing a time, in the middle of the 2010's, when "amdgpu" was released. It is a completely rewritten, different driver, and is mostly open source [0]. Before that, the driver was named "radeon" and it was very shaky. I can speak to this personally. I had desktop Linux systems with both AMD/ATI and Nvidia GPUs, and while there were some issues with Nvidia, the AMD/ATI drivers gave me nightmares.
Once the rewritten "amdgpu" driver came out, things got much better. The first few cards created after that (IIRC the Polaris GPUs, RX 400's), the situation reversed. I still have had occasional issues with various Nvidia cards (normally driver updates breaking things), but for almost a decade now, I have not had issues with AMD GPUs under Linux.
[0] Except for pro features while using workstation cards. You need to use a proprietary driver for those, but even those share a lot of code with the open source driver.
You have this largely right, but I need to defend the Radeon driver a bit here. The driver that caused all the problems was the proprietary fglrx driver, not the open source Radeon driver. The issue with the Radeon driver wasn’t stability, it was that it was 2d acceleration only.
Not completely true either, it eventually supported most of the normal 3d primitives but gaming performance was never a priority because there were few developers and they weren't employed by AMD/ATI -- which also meant that some cards would only reach full feature support after their EOL, sadly.
The amdgpu also driver benefits from a lot of the groundwork that has been done since. The radeon driver is older than kernel features like KMS (kernel modesetting) and GEM (graphics execution manager), and the LLVM-based shader compiler in mesa (userspace). I'd say that the radeon driver was actually the proving ground for many of these features, because it was the most capable open source 3d driver: The Intel 845/915 hardware barely supported 3d operations, and the only 3d-capable open source driver for Nvidia was the reverse-engineered nouveau driver.
Luckily, many people working on the amdgpu driver are actually on AMD's payroll these days.
AMD had developers working on radeon (the older open source kernel driver) and radeonsi (the open source user-space OpenGL driver backend for newer cards in Mesa that now sits on top of amdgpu) before the switch to amdgpu (the newer open source kernel driver). While the kernel driver isn't irrelevant for performance, it depends more on the user space portion (radeonsi and r600 before that) which was kept with the amdgpu switch. What the amdgpu driver brought is more sharing of display code with their windows drivers. The main difference in performance is between r600 (mostly developed without financial support from AMD) and radeonsi (mostly developed by AMD). Of course these days the most relevant user-space portion is radv (open source Vulkan driver in Mesa) which is NOT developed by AMD but rather funded by Valve (and at least initially Red Hat). There is also the open source amdvlk Vulkan user-space driver developed by AMD which is the same as their proprietary Vulkan driver except with the proprietary shader compiler swapped out for the same LLVM backend that radeonsi uses. And if this all wasn't confusing enough, AMD also calls the full driver package with the proprietary Vulkan driver and some snapshot of the open source OpenGL Mesa drivers (radeonsi) "amdgpu-pro".
I remember! I stand corrected on the name and the issues!
I forgot that name "fglrx", probably a mental self-defense mechanism. Those were some bad times, trying to get different display outputs to work at the same time, guessing and testing values in xorg.conf, so on. There was some community utility someone wrote to try and help with installation, reinstallation, configuration and reconfiguration, but the name eludes me now.
I would edit my post to correct it, but it seems the edit window has passed.
And with that release, my ASUS 1215B was downgraded from OpenGL 4.1 into OpenGL 3.3, it took several years for the open source driver to catch up in features to the old closed source driver, and when it finally did, my netbook was at the end of its life.
Ah and hardware video decoding never ever worked again.
So much for the so called advantages of an open source driver.
AMDgpu is the driver for newer GPUs, radeon is for the older GPUs. This is like circa 7 or 10 years ago.
So it is both driver changes and architectural changes.
There is also AMDGPU-PRO, which is the proprietary version based on AMDGPU. Used to be you'd need it for ROCm, but that hasn't been true for a while not. There really isn't any reason to use the "pro" version anymore, unless you have a some special proprietary app that requires it.
Open source GPU drivers are based on Mesa stack. So they share a common code base and support for things like Vulkan.
So it is sorta similar to how DirectX works. With old-school OpenGL drivers each stack was proprietary to the GPU manufacturer so there was lots of quirks and extensions that applied to only one or another GPU. That is one of the reasons DirectX displaced OpenGL in gaming... Microsoft 'owned' DirectX/Direct3d stack.
Well the open source equivalent to that is Mesa. Mesa provides APi support in software and it is then ported to each GPU with "dri drivers".
For gaming things have improved tremendously with "Proton", which is essentially Wine with vastly improved Direct3D support.
This is accomplished with "DXVK", which is a Direct3D to Vulkan translator.
This way Linux essentially gets close to "native windows speed" for most games that support proton in one way or another.
Which means that most games run on Linux now. Probably over 75% that are available on Steam, although "running" doesn't mean it is perfect.
One of the biggest problems faced with Linux gaming nowadays is anti-cheat features for competitive online games. Most of the software anti-piracy and anti-cheating features games use can technically work on Linux, but it is really up to the game manufacturer to make it work and support it. Linux gamers can sometimes make it work, but also they get flagged and booted and even accounts locked for being suspected of cheating.
It's a completely different driver for a different architecture. The biggest reason it works so much better is that it's open source (with some blobs, of course) and part of the mainline kernel, unlike its predecessor which was developed downstream and fully proprietary.
amdgpu replaced both the in-kernel open-source "radeon" driver, which was already open source, and the proprietary "fglrx" driver.
But the user-space portions are probably more significant for performance than the kernel drivers. Here we have:
- r300 and r600 (open source OpenGL backend for older hardware, sits on top of the radeon kernel driver, not much development happening)
- radeonsi (open source OpenGL backend for newer hardware, sits on top of either the radeon or amdgpu kernel drivers depending on hardware version and kernel configuration)
- fglrx (closed source OpenGL driver on top of the fglrx kernel driver, both obsolete now)
- radv (open source Vulkan driver on top of amdgpu)
- amgpu-pro (closed source Vulkan driver on top of amdgpu) - not sure if there is also still a proprietary OpenGL driver but if there is no one should care since radeonsi works well enough
- amdvlk (open source dumps of amdgpu-pro without proprietary shader compiler on top of amdgpu)
Then you have different shader compilers which also significantly affect both shader compile time and runtime performance:
- internal compiler used by r600
- LLVM (used by radeonsi and amdvlk)
- ACO (used by radv and possibly radeonsi these days)
- AMD's proprietary compiler (used by fglrx and amdgpu-pro)
And for X.org you also have different display drivers (fglrx, radeon, modesetting).
AMD cards are plug and play for 99% of cases with Linux now. Everything just works out of the box.
The only issues you may run into if you distro doesn't include the firmware. e.g. This was the case with Debian 11 and you had to enable the non-free repo.
The only other problem you can conceivably have is card isn't supported by the kernel because it is too new. This can be fixed by upgrading the kernel. In Debian you can use a backports kernel, I am sure there are similar options in other distros.
When I was using my old 1080Ti, I had constant issues with the NVIDIA drivers. Acceleration didn't work on the second screen sometimes. There was some magic setting that would unset itself.
Things have changed a lot since Steam deck. Especially in the last 3 or 4 years.
Mobile users suffer more problems then people with dedicated desktop GPUs, but it still gotten a lot better.
The one thing to be careful about AMD GPUs is that for most GPU OEMs AMD is just a after thought. So they get sub-par QA and heatsinks compared to their more popular Nvidia models.
It is best to go with card makers that only sell AMD GPUs, like Sapphire, PowerColor, and XFX. I am partial to Sapphire.
I have a 5070 ti running Kubuntu 25.04 and it's a mess. Animations repeating, half the desktop disappears when waking from sleep, HDMI audio cuts out... I swapped to a 7900xt and it is absolutely flawless.
Maybe things have improved, or support was just never that good for older NVIDIA GPU's (for reference, last time I used Nvidia on Linux I was running Fedora on a Thinkpad P50, which I think has a Quadro M1000M gpu), but it'd be a costly experiment to find
The problem is not NVIDIA GPU, it is laptops that have iGPU (amd or intel) and Nvidia dgpu. In such a configuration the experience is really really bad in both X11 and wayland.
I'm one month into owning a GMKTec Evo-X2 with the new mad AMD gpu in it and so far I've managed to get Ollama running. ROCm doesn't officially support the GPU and everything seems to be hacky workaround on top of hacky workaround. Starting to wish I'd just waited for NVIDIA to actually release the project digits thing.
Installing the ROCm nightlies from TheRock and upgrading the linux kernel to 6.16. However the kernel upgrade breaks a ton of other things, notably dkms.
I've been trying for weeks to get ComfyUI to not explode without success.
But they are not in the actual Linux kernel, and are a separate module that does not adhere to Linux kernel code conventions. It also has no user-space driver that isn't NVIDIA's proprietary driver. Anything further open-source such as NVK is not being worked on by NVIDIA, but by other 3rd parties.
Compared to AMD and Intel, NVIDIA is very much not an 'out of the box', or stable experience.
To be fair, AMD's driver also needs proprietary firmware blobs. This is still infinitely better than having mistery sauce running in kernel space directly. A bigger problem is that there is no performant open source user-space counterpart like there is for AMD (Mesa with radeonsi for OpenGL and radv for Vulkan).
I've never had anything but positive experience with Nvidia on Linux (which I've been using for 5 years or so now). That said, I'm on a desktop and not a laptop, so the hardware isn't the same. My experience might not be representative of what laptop users see.
On a laptop with multiple GPUs (Intel and nvidia Quadro) running Ubuntu and Wayland, trying to get the nvidia card working has been a nightmare. Until a recent reinstall, I couldn't load the nvidia driver or I wouldn't be able to log in to my system (graphically, I mean). If anything changed on my system to remove the blacklist I had for those modules I'd have to spend an hour trying to figure out what changed so that I could get back to work.
Now that I have it working I see random glitches here and there that I can't pin down. Some Electron apps I have to turn off GPU acceleration or they won't get any windows showing up - they launch, the process exists, they're in the dock as active, but the window doesn't appear at all.
Getting a new laptop from work to replace this one and I'm really hoping it won't have nvidia hardware - or at least, if it does I can disable it and the Intel GPU will work fine also.
I literally can buy 2 of the Gigabyte laptops for the same price.
Even if I can swap out some parts, odds are it's still easier( and cheaper) to just buy a new competing laptop ever 3 years.
If your motivation is "the environment" you can always just donate your old laptop , give it to a friend, etc. "Gaming" laptop might as well be for code for cheaper , but it has RGB and your co-workers might look at you weird.
Many laptops just use regular M.2 SSDs which are easy enough to replace. For me this is a requirement not just for repairs but also for the initial configuration - bundled storage options are usually too limited.
Batteries are harder because the race to reduce thickness and weight means that they are usually optimized for that rather than being some standard format you can find replacements for.
Aside from Linux driver issues, shame on our community for downplaying this, it's an amazing computer. I swapped in a 2TB SDD, and I'll be using it for years.
If I drop it or do something stupid, I'm out 450$. Even a decent Macbook is only going to be about 1500$.
At 3000 Euro, 3500 USD I'd be afraid to take it out of the house, at which point a desktop is going to be significantly cheaper, better, easier to fix and less accident prone.
For what it's worth, I accidentally flung my Framework 13 across several stairs of a lecture hall. All in all, a 3 meter drop on an arched trajectory with the lid closed. The device has not been damaged except for scratches.
I wouldn't repeat this on purpose obviously, but I came away with the impression that Framework builds are not particularly brittle.
I would not consider a single anecdote about (no) damage from dropping to mean anything at all as there is always a very high variance with that. For many devices you can drop them dozens of times without any major issues or you can get unlucky once.
Sadly I pulled mine off a desk by the cord with my foot and dented the top right corner bending under the power button slightly breaking it so had to replace the keyboard, top and bottom case. That’s fine, happy I fixed it myself but just an anecdote to the opposite. ;)
I literally just want a touchpad with buttons. These new 'clickpads' are the bane of my existence. They are so much slower, and certain workflows are impossible. I must use an external mouse now with modern laptops.
Why can no laptop manufacturer even make this an option?
Aside: what if frame.work site had a place for popular vote for features? (With proper registration, etc.) E.g. Digital Ocean has this, and it seems helpful, they follow up on some of the most upvoted feature requests.
It's sort of free market research.
Kickstarter style upfront payment may be more useful. You want touchpad with buttons; it would cost 300k to develop if enough people paid, the company would build it. If it is a niche, let open ecosystem take care of it.
Can only speak for myself, but for me the issue with traditional clickpads comes down to their mechanical diving board nature. Even the best ones are not nice to use due to the unavoidable variance in pressure and click feel across the pad that is exacerbated as the size of the pad increases and the mechanism wears over time.
The type that doesn’t move at all and simulates a click with haptics on the other hand I find just fine. MacBooks do this of course but there’s also a few x86 laptops equipped with pads like that.
So in my opinion, mechanical clickpads should disappear entirely and laptops should offer two options: a static haptic clickpad and traditional trackpad with buttons.
Honestly, I'm here half wondering why we need the click at all. One finger drag for move, quick one finger tap for left click, tap and half for click and drag, two finger tap, two finger drag for scroll covers all the common interactions.
Which isn't to say I don't use the click functionality at all. I will subconciously use it in some scenarios, but not in others, but if it were missing I would adapt very quickly, since I use the gesture alternatives so often, that I would automatically fall back to them.
I suppose I need the click for some obscure interactions like right click drag, but honestly except in games I've almost never seen that used. My surface laptop as currently configured literally wouldn't even allow some other rare ones like hold button and scroll (I'd need to turn on right side scroll-wheel for that) and I've never even noticed the absence of that ability until I tried it just now.
I've missed them every time I've been in the unfortunate position of dealing with someone else's macOS system. It's all a matter of what you're accustomed to.
Hardware-wise, no, I've had plenty of PC trackpads that are better than Apple trackpads. But MacOS tends to have better built-in support for advanced gestures, which seem to be impossible on Windows and must be manually configured on Linux (but gives you enormous power once you do).
Apple's palm rejection is also top tier, though other systems have been getting better. My current Dell seems fine so far, but at my last company the Dell I had was almost unusable due to my cursor just teleporting around my document randomly if my hands got too close to the trackpad (which is where they have to be to type).
Not sure if it's a hardware (Dell) or software (Ubuntu) improvement, but thank god.
You could try putting a trackpad from a macbook into the framework. AFAIK the palm rejection is all in the firmware. The apple trackpad is USB. If you look at the code for Asahi Linux it could tell you more.
... it's a software problem afaik. The trackpad may be slightly better quality, but it's the drivers and the OS integration that make even some games playable without a mouse on Mac OS.
Don't think any one x86 laptop manufacturer can fix it.
I assume some gestures are simply not possible. Like click-to-drag and scroll simultaneously. Not every app handles gutter-hover-to-scroll in a usable way. On a mouse or a pad with buttons, you can keep the left click held down and scroll with the wheel or gesture. Uni-pads make this impossible.
"Without issues" is a stretch. You need to use two hands or be skilled with one. Its trivial on a mouse or a pad with a discrete buttons.
But ok, what about just dragging a long distance where you would normally lift the mouse or finger? Is there some hidden gesture for this? Maybe once your initial drag finger hits the edge you need to use two more to do a move gesture? But I've seen that trigger scroll and/or pinch-to-zoom.
This reminded me of a feature in windows where if you were dragging something and reached the end of the touchpad, the cursor would continue on the same trajectory as long as you kept your finger at the edge of the touchpad. Then you could overshoot a little so you could bring your fingers back to the middle to regain maneuverability. I haven't missed it since I switched to linux but now that I'm thinking about it that was a very nice touch (no pun intended).
> what about just dragging a long distance where you would normally lift the mouse or finger?
This is why you set Trackpad speed to "fastest", and take advantage of the aggressive trackpad acceleration. When you move your finger quickly you'll easily reach the far side of the screen before your finger reaches the edge of the pad, and slow finger movements will still be precise
I'm probably missing some context, but on my Mac I'm using three fingers drag and I can lift fingers and (quickly) reposition them without breaking the drag.
I have the external apple trackpad (the most recent usb-c version at that) and this click-to-drag and then attempting to scroll does not work on Linux. Seems like this might have been a particular attention to detail on part of macOS devs.
As far as I know touchpad implementations just report finger locations and its up to software to interpret what a combination of these gestures means.
How does that work? You've got to tap the touchpad to trigger the initial click, don't you? For some reason, I really HATE tapping a touchpad (let that be an Apple or otherwise), it breaks my flow, I suppose? (like, you have to pause at the cursor's location, lift, tap twice to initiate a dragging event, then finally move on) whereas on the ThinkPad I daily drive I do all the cursor movement/scrolling with my right hand and the selection/clicking with my left thumb on the physical key that sits on the top of the touchpad sensitive area. That makes click&drag workflows super efficient, I find.
You click and drag with one finger and you are free to scroll with two other fingers during the drag. It is a multitouch gesture. (I don't use "tap to click" since I always found it cumbersome)
Just for me to understand, you navigate to that thing you want to drag, then press harder (without the double-tap+move in short sequence, do there's that), and that registers a drag event?
Could you do the "press harder" part with, e.g. a thumb in an other region of the touchpad instead of the finger that did the navigation?
Yes, you can. As long as one finger is "pressing hard-ish" a second finger can command the drag position, but if the finger that is pressing (you do not need to press very hard to trigger a click) is not the one that is also moving, then you will have issues when also scrolling with two other fingers, because at that point you have 4 fingers touching the trackpad, and by default you get anoter gesture registered (probably a zoom out to see all the windows in the workspace, called "expose"). If the fingers touching the trackpad are "only" three, you can drag and scroll, with the window that receives the scroll being the one under the pointer/item being dragged.
Thanks for clarifying, it seems analogous to having a physical mouse button, then (except that the haptic feedback is simulated, which strangely isn't off-putting to most, I've personally always felt the sensation uncanny)
> Why can no laptop manufacturer even make this an option?
Because it’s a variation of both the case and the internals that brings a higher failure rate, more dust ingress, more moving parts, and, most importantly, would rarely be chosen.
> They are so much slower,
They are objectively faster because you can click anywhere rather than moving a finger to a button or keeping one finger always on the button.
> They are objectively faster because you can click anywhere rather than moving a finger to a button or keeping one finger always on the button.
I have no problem with the current trackpad (and prefer it), but when I used a trackpad with dedicated buttons, i'd use my index finger to track and my thumb to click, so I wouldn't have to move my fingers around at all.
Regardless, why do we feel the need to argue with people's personal preferences? You don't have to agree with someone on this. It's fine. People can prefer other things.
This is my issue! All these years later, I am still not used to it, and I accidentally trigger multi-tap nonsense that I didn't intend because I am trying to click with my thumb.
My only point of reference is my MacBook Pro trackpad but I have no problem using my finger to move the cursor with my thumb resting on the trackpad and clicking. Not exactly the same because you lose some of the tactility of discrete buttons but it seems somewhat possible at least.
Yeah, most of the non-apple implementations of this don’t work with using a second finger to click in my experience. They expect you to click with the pointing finger.
Someone should scoop up the niche market of anguished ThinkPad devotees, with a TrackPoint and a good, non-chiclet keyboard. Maybe Framework, leveraging its modular system. Maybe a Framework-compatible third-party.
I just watched Framework's other video talking about what they're working on[1], and they mentioned they're trying to get the trackpoint working, but they're having issues with it damaging the screen due to the low clearance.
I think you're supposed to touch the touchpad in particular ways with your thumb, while using your index finger on the TrackPoint stick.
I wonder what the set intersection is, between people who want TrackPoint sticks, and people who don't want TrackPoint buttons.
ThinkPad industrial design the last several years seems focused on looking thin and sleek -- like an Apple product, only in matte black, with a red accent in the middle of the keyboard -- but some of the human factors changes aren't intuitive to me.
Current models of the X1 have the option of having buttons or not. Which seems fine, but hopefully it isn't a sign that they're trying to drop the option of buttons.
Some Dell business models have them as well... I used to be a fan, but at this point I prefer the Mac touchpad experience. The closest I've felt are Razor and a few higher end Chromebooks (that I won' t buy). I'm hoping other mfgs get a lot closer to the Apple touchpad experience as patents start to expire in the next few years.
There's a few that are close, but still not close enough. Also, Mac slightly changed their default settings (regarding the physical click behavior), I never recall what it is but only that I change it back when starting out on a new machine.
With the trackpads that have built-in clicks in the pad itself, I've always found it really difficult to drag-and-drop stuff if it has to be pulled longer than a few pixels. Just moving and pressing against a surface seems to not be a super accurate movement in general.
Although it gets buggier with every release, macOS has a three-finger-drag operation, and there's a grace period when you lift your fingers if you need to adjust your position over the trackpad. It also lets you just fling one finger.
I don't think I have, long time ago I had to use a laptop myself, just remember that being difficult last time I had to do it together with someone else. Probably depends on the software/hardware itself also, how well something like that would work.
Have you? The precision vs a touchpad with buttons isn't even close. It may well be a driver issue in Linux, all I know for sure is that it's an issue that does not exist with touchpads and that I have already spent far too much of my life fiddling with settings trying to get it to behave.
I never had problems with precision on HP high end models, Windows XP up to 2008 and several Ubuntu versions since then to 2022, then Debian.
I own an nc8430 and a ZBook 15 first generation. I use the lower row of three mouse buttons as left, middle and right click. Those touchpads don't move and don't bend. I disabled tap to click as buttons are much better and never move accidentally the pointer by design. Palm detection works very well, basically no issues. I use two finger scroll and pan. Several gestures work but I don't really like them. I disabled everything. I rather use keyboard shortcuts. I defined some of my own especially to navigate among virtual desktops.
There is still one ZBook Fury model with buttons, every other model lost them.
I have, yes! I do it a lot when dragging and dropping on Linux. Start the drag with one finger, and then bring a new finger in to move it. It's just like using a button.
I've not had to configure anything to make this work for a number of years now in Plasma. Though I've been running Linux on Macbooks for a long time, so maybe it's about specific hardware support.
While I prefer an external mouse, I can manage ECAD and some 3D modelling if I have buttons. It's great in a pinch. I'm getting nauseous even imagining it with a clickpad.
My current plan is to retrofit buttons to my clickpad. Earlier this week I ordered a few different styles of touchpad buttons from AliExpress to test. I'll build a custom little USB HID device for it once I've picked my favourite one.
I don't think I can rely on laptop manufacturers to buck the clickpad trend any time soon, so I'll do it myself.
> These new 'clickpads' are the bane of my existence.
But only because they are all worse than Apple's version. What you really want isn't a touchpad with buttons, is a "clickpad" that doesn't suck. And as far as I know only Apple makes them.
What's the bottleneck in getting a Macbook like touchpad experience in a modern non-Apple laptop? Is it software? Some specific company that won't sell parts to anyone else? Patents?
I have tried several laptops, and nothing has even comes close in the last ten or so years.
I am hoping you might have some unique insight into this!
PS: Framework Laptop 16 looks great, will order one later this year and then get a GPU with more vram whenever available in future.
If you haven't seen it, this "Linux Touchpad like Macbook" project is related, the last/best effort I've seen in this direction. Here's a random update from a few years ago:
I'm very happy to see Framework lead the USB power delivery pack by supporting 240W, 48V/5A charging on the Framework 16. As the first company to ship laptops using this spec, what problems or quirks, if any, have you seen from 48V charging in the field?
Since we designed both the power adapter and the product that is using it, it just works. There aren't a lot of other devices that support 240W USB-C for us to test against.
How thick must be the cable that delivers 48V @ 5A? I suppose not much thicker than normal, but still? Does this require a specialty cable to achieve that?
Increasing the voltage doesn't require a thicker cable, and 5A power starts with 100W USB-C PD. USB-C cables that support 5A aren't that thick, but they do need a special chip so that the devices know it's safe to send 5A.
I'm very impressed you managed to get nvidia to give you access to the 5070! I have one queetion though, is the 5070 limited to 100W because of the docking connector, or for cooling reasons?
In theory I'm the perfect audience for the Framework 16! The only thing holding me back is the lack of a 4K display. It's so good for dense text on the screen (e.g., code with lots of split buffers), I can't go back. Still waiting patiently for this to become an option.
It would also be a huge benefit to use a replaced mainboard as a homelab base WITH ECC support in the future.
Same goes for the Framework Desktop, which features Strix Halo without ECC support, whereas ECC IS possible with Ryzen AI MAX+ 395+ PRO (e.g. HP Z2 Mini G1a).
Can't speak for Framework, but AMD themselves doesn't necessarily support this configuration so it would be on Framework to develop/test/certify a compatibility list... they'd likely only support first party modules, if anything. At least for non-pro AMD CPUs.
Likely mostly down to resources/time as to the lack of official support.
> Something that we hear over and over again across our entire product lineup is that people want pointing sticks. You might know it as trackpoint from other brands. The little nubs that you can use as a mouse. Obviously, if you're a ThinkPad user, former ThinkPad user, that might be something that you're very familiar and comfortable with. And so, it is something that actually on all of our products several times over the last 5 years, we have tried to prototype and make work. The big challenge on this actually is just that there's very, very little space here. That the Zstack here is incredibly thin.
> And for a keyboard, it works because the keys are compliant. If there's force that's put on the lid, like let's say you're got your laptop in a backpack with a book or something, it's just being pressed on like that, the screen is going to touch the keys and the keys are going to give way because they're just on these uh on these scissor mechanisms and the screen will be okay and you may get a little smudge you have to wipe off. You've got like finger grease on there.
> A pointing stick though is not compliant. Not compliant in that way. So, you've got this like sharp point basically sticking out from the keyboard. And if there's pressure placed on the lid, that's going to go right onto that point on the tracking stick and end up damaging screen or have a high likelihood of damaging the screen.
> And so, we've just kept over and over, we've kept trying this and seeing if we could get a low enough profile pointing stick solution to make that work, not risk the screen at all. And so far, that doesn't exist. That is something that we keep going into the supply base to try to find.
> Hopefully we that is something we find in the future because of course with this input module system on framework laptop 16, it would end up being relatively straightforward for us to just make an input module a keyboard that you can swap in that's got that pointing stick unlike uh you know even our other laptops where you'd have to have an entirely new input cover to get that kind of functionality.
Most laptops have rubber bumpers around the screen to create a small airgap when the screen is closed, and even if you stack several laptops on top of each other, the bottom one's screen won't flex enough to touch the keyboard. Maybe with the more rigid lid, they can enable this?
Given the longevity goals with their modular designs, I'm guessing they're unlikely to make dramatic changes to their overall design in less than 5-7 years time from initial release. Such a screen change would likely require new hinge design as well as a thicker display casing, not to mention the risk of someone putting the trackpoint keyboard in a model that doesn't have the thicker display section.
I am thinking that something with a nub on a 2-axis slider as opposed to rocker switches could be an option, but that would potentially have drift issues. Not to mention the Framework keyboards themselves are probably mostly a COTS solution, where something like I'm thinking would require custom R&D an likely be limited release. If Framework, Dell and Lenovo could work together, they could probably come up with a good solution... though Lenovo likes the Fn button in the corner, where most others prefer Ctrl then Fn.
Yeah, nowadays the trackpoint is just a bad pointing device. As laptops get slimmer, trackpoints get less precise and less usable. And they hurt our wrists.
We just have to let go. A haptic trackpad is miles better now.
I've used it on a Dell laptop too, but it was far inferior to the Trackpoint. I think IBM/Lenovo had a patent on the specific technology but it might be expired now.
I don't think more modern ThinkPads are much better... they have a shorter keyboard depth than the earlier models and the feel overall is significantly reduced... I understand as most people don't generally want a "thick" notebook.
Awesome job on following through with the upgradability! I love the nvidia support!
Are you coming out with another coolermaster case for the 16 mainboard?
I want to make a custom dock with fans to force more cooling over the radiators. Could it be possible to "unlock" the 100W TDP of the 5070 in firmware or are there other hardware limitations like the interconnect?
Was adding the USB C power input on the GPU necessary to get full power? I see in the specs on github that VADP_GPU can take 100W into the mainboard and VSYS_GPU can supply 240W to the GPU. Are there any tradeoffs powering the system from the back ports vs the GPU?
Was the previous version of the AMD GPU not sending the display signal directly to the panel via the edp mux but instead via the igpu? If not is that something you can update in firmware? Can you publish how this was done so someone can make an oculink expansion board with displayport input?
Thanks to everyone at Framework for making such awesome hackable products!
I would love more keyboard options! If I could have a laptop with a keyboard more like a standard tenkeyless, I would be over the moon. In the meantime, I'll have to see about hacking the standard keyboard somehow, although there's no fixing those arrow keys.
Wouldn't it be possible to have a side add-on similar to the numeric keypad but the width of the spacer or LED matrix to accomplish this? Maybe a revamped keypad that has home, end, page up, page down, and then a bunch of assignable macro keys would work well.
You can upgrade to any one of the new parts. In the Framework Marketplace, you can set compatibility filters to see the new parts (some of which are on waitlist because we'll be shipping them later this year): https://frame.work/marketplace?compatibility%5B%5D=laptop_16
- Bazzite takes community contributions; whereas, SteamOS is packaged and distributed by Valve, and
- Bazzite is based on Fedora, so the work to support Fedora should bubble over to Bazzite.
I'm curious though, is there a big difference in functionality for SteamOS vs Bazzite. Are there things that work in Bazzite that wouldn't in pure SteamOS?
We manufacture our systems and many of our modules in Taiwan, and have had less tariff impact than other electronics companies as a result. Currently, laptops are also exempt from some tariffs.
I understand there's two versions of requirements for the NVidia 50 series - the higher end 5070Ti and up, and the lower end 5070 and down. What's the chance of releasing a 5070Ti/5080 version?
Not specifically about the new laptop but will you guys ever do a 15 inch non-gaming laptop that looks similar to a macbook?
I really want to buy one of your products but 13 inch is a bit too small for me while the Laptop 16 is a bit too bulky.
I wish I could buy it, but I'm in the unfortunate situation of being in Norway, instead of almost any other European country. Will you ever ship here? ;-(
Is it possible to put the trackpad "above" (as in closer to the display) the keyboard? This is to me the obvious correct place to put it, but I'm in the clear minority.
Not a question about the Framework Laptop 16 specifically, but why are the upgrade kits[0] for the Laptop 13 still marked as "register interest" on the Framework Marketplace? The Ryzen AI 300 motherboards, RAM, and Wi-fi cards are all available separately already.
Anyone using Framework for a daily driver that can compare to an M-series Macbook? Specifically, battery life on your OS. Does anything compare to a MBP these days?
From a value proposition, it seems good. Our group definitely goes through keyboards and mainboards from spilled tea at least annually it seems, but AppleCare is just a no-brainer, and away we go.
I still drive on my original M1 at home without complaint, and use my M3 at work. Anyone have the early Frameworks still in daily use? How are they?
Nothing touches Apple Silicon on battery, including laptops with similar performance per watt. And there's no scenario where, on pretty much any individual performance spec, a FW is going to compete with a Mac.
When I first got a 12th-gen Intel mainboard FW13 with the original 55Wh battery running stock Ubuntu, the battery life at best was <6 hours. Since moving to the 7040 AMD mainboard, the upgraded 61Wh battery, and Fedora, I've not run out of battery in an 8-hour workday. I've also got an Ultra 7 155H mainboard with the same work performance with respect to battery life.
I can't speak to the FW16s with 85Wh batteries, but I also don't consider them as being designed with either work or battery life as priorities.
Framework doesn't provide official optimized Linux power management profiles. Community profiles make up some of the difference, but if untuned battery life out of the box is a priority to you, and if you also don't care about the process of replacing its battery, just get a Mac. If Linux is an additional priority to you, get an old M1 or M2 MBP with a low battery cycle count and run Fedora Asahi Remix on it.
> Framework doesn't provide official optimized Linux power management profiles
Is this difficult? Would it not behoove them to do this and get better work-hour scores? I would imagine it would be part of making sure the screen can dim, touch pad works, etc in terms of "building a quality product".
I dont mean this in a snarky way, I just figure if you're making it and know the products in it, couldn't you optimise a power profile for it? Or perhaps they "know" it has an AMD/Intel processor in it, but that isn't enough to really do a worthwhile job and it's more on AMD/Intel to do it?
I have an M2 Max MBP for work and a Framework 16 for home.
Build quality of the MBP is better. The machine feels more solid. The battery life is better, although to be fair, I run Linux on the Framework so the hardware itself isn't the only difference.
The Framework 16 wins hands-down when it comes to ports, one of my biggest pain points with any Apple laptop in the last 10 years. It has six of them and I can mostly arrange them according to my needs. In the rare cases where I plug it into an external monitor, I swap out one of the USB ports for an HDMI port. If I'm using more older devices than normal, I replace the USB-C ports with USB-A ports. I say "mostly" here because not all ports work in all positions.
The repairability and openness of the Framework laptop were the big draws for me and it delivered well on both counts. I'm happy with it.
I don't think the build quality is very far off in any sort of terms that matter. Sure, Apple gives you a hollowed out block of aluminum and that's really nice and fancy but that doesn't really matter in any tangible way except feeling nice.
Framework has pretty minimal keyboard deck flex and other measures of build quality that actually impact usage. I think it fares better than a good chunk of PC competitors like the ThinkPad T14.
The only thing Framework really needs is a haptic trackpad and it'd be pretty much there in terms of the build feel. I also like how Apple puts the air intakes on the side rather than the bottom where they're frequently blocked by a lap or a soft surface.
I have an early batch framework (i7 11th gen) still in use (I have no other laptops or a PC).
A few benefits I've gotten out of it:
- I spilled almost a liter of milk on my keyboard, really gummed it up. Keys stopped working. Got it replaced for pretty cheap.
- Linux just works. No weird driver issues
But...
- Battery life is horrible. I pretty much just have it plugged in whenever I can. When off battery, I use the cpupower frequency set command to limit to 1000MHz which is fast enough for vim anyways. Compiling stuff becomes a bit slower but since I write Go, it's not too bad.
- Fan noise is loud
- My specific laptop had a weird sensor bug where it would sometimes randomly get throttled to 200 MHz. Framework didn't really help or replace it.
Honestly it'll probably last me another 5 years before I need to switch out the mainboard. I don't do anything intense like gaming.
FWIW, I had a Dell laptop that I put Ubuntu 22.04 on when I got it, and the battery life was atrocious; closing everything except Firefox, closing every FF tab but one, stopping background services, setting the screen to half brightness, I got about an hour and a half of battery life.
Went and installed Slimbook Battery and left it at default settings and got several more hours of battery life without having to close everything. Had to reinstall later and just installed TLP and left it at default settings and still getting far better battery life.
Not sure why Ubuntu is so cripplingly bad out of the box when it's so easy to fix, but if you haven't tried that it might be worth checking out.
I have a first generation framework 13, I upgraded the mainboard last year to the 12th gen intel i7-1280P mainboard. My original mainboard was from the first batch with the bios battery issues but still works, though I haven't had success getting it to run standalone in the coolmaster case yet.
I'm happy with my framework 13 four years later. I might switch to the stiffer hinge and/or a matte screen in the future. Might try one of the AMD mainboards in a few generations when they're cheaper and put my current mainboard into another case...
Edit: FWIW I bought a macbook air M1 a year after getting the framework 13, and ended up selling it. The battery life on the macbook air was significantly better, but I can still spend an entire workday in the park with the glossy framework 13 without needing to recharge so the extra battery life from the M1 didn't really have a ton of value for me.
I regularly use an M4 and a Framework 13. There's really no comparison in terms of battery life and performance (even compared to the M1 which I also used extensively). Having said that, Framework 13 is a good machine for Linux. My only complaints is battery life could be better, and I don't like the trackpad.
I’ve had an AMD Framework 13 since around its launch. I still love it and much prefer the Linux experience and its customizability over my M2 MacBook Pro. I also love that all the people who worked on it have their names literally on my mainboard—you’re supporting a small business trying to make the industry better, instead of a megacorp doing everything in their power to prevent easy repairs.
The battery life is good enough that I never worry/think about it. The keyboard is fantastic. The trackpad is meh, not terrible but not MacBook great—use a mouse or vim :)
I have a Framework 13 (11th gen i7 + Debian + KDE) and the battery lasts just as long as my M3 Apple laptop. Maybe I get an extra hour out of the Apple one. Nothing major and there’s no stupid nub at the top of the screen.
Unfortunately I do not think anyone comes remotely close to Apple in the battery life department. I have an M2 Air that I really adore, but after driving Linux on my workstation for the last 2 years I want to explore Linux laptops. All my research has concluded that if you care about longevity, a Mac is the only way to go.
I have a ThinkPad T14 Gen 5 AMD (besides MacBook Pro M1 Pro) and with some powertop tweaks it lasts about 6-7 hours. Not as great as the M1 Pro, but generally good enough to work a few hours without power. The nice thing is that I loaded it up with 64GiB RAM and a 2TB SSD for cheap (almost infinite NixOS generations, yay!).
The MacBook has a better trackpad, stronger case, better battery life, far better display. But the ThinkPad has NixOS running perfectly (I had Asahi on my Mac Studio, but with the lack of Thunderbolt and not so great battery life I don't want to run it on a MacBook). At any rate, the Mac is going to be better, but I have to sacrifice a bit for tech-feudalism-free computing (Mac is slowly becoming more and more closed).
The idea of Framework laptops sounds great! But I’m wondering: has anyone done an economic analysis comparing buying a Framework laptop a few years ago and gradually upgrading it, versus buying a similar popular brand laptop and just upgrading by getting a new model? I’m not trolling, I’m genuinely considering Framework as my next laptop.
I have a 1st gen Framework 13, Intel 11th gen CPU, running Ubuntu 24. It had a faulty design around the BIOS battery on the motherboard that I had to fix, and do some soldering on[1]. It's remarkable because they didn't say "Send the laptop in and we'll fix the design defect" they said, "First take a photo of the inside of the laptop to verify the serial number, then place an order, then do the repair yourself." This left a very bad taste in my mouth.
Additionally, and non-trivially, the laptop's battery life is not good, and it drains very quickly on suspend. I have taken to leaving it plugged in when not in use. This may be a Linux issue, but still.
I agree with you: the idea is a good one, but my experience with the company has been not good.
This is awesome though, and exactly the sort of thing one buys a Framework for.
> the laptop's battery life is not good
Mine is great, I share a single USB-C cord among all my laptops (of which I have despairingly too many) and I often use my Framework all day while forgetting it's not plugged in. (Fedora, if the OS matters.)
No, it's not awesome. Upgrading ram and disk or replacing a motherboard, screen or battery is great. Repairing a badly designed motherboard with a soldering iron is not great. In fact, it's bad. I think there's a good argument that it violates (warranty) law. If a car company sells to you based on "right to repair" and then it turns out there was a design defect in the engine, is it "awesome" if they tell you you need to pull the engine and rebuild it?
Glad your battery life is good. I notice you didn't mention it losing power when suspended. Curious.
Thanks. I upgraded the kernel (had to turn off secure boot to do it), and set the nvme kernel option, too. So far no unwanted side-effects, but it's too soon to say if it fixed the problem.
I'm going to assume soldering on the main board is far outside the ability of most users. They're not through hole, big green boards like I learned on.
It is certainly awesome for those that can, of course!
Well then, you live in the best of worlds because every laptop is repairable even at the chip level or individual capacitor/resistor/connector level. All you need is a workshop, a multimeter, oscilloscope, probes, a hot air gun, a microscope, a variety of soldering tools, a variety of solder, solder mask, access to schematics and donor boards, and a lifetime of experience. Here's a guy who repairs Dell laptops all day every day: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDsP1--ttQc
> Additionally, and non-trivially, the laptop's battery life is not good, and it drains very quickly on suspend
Drain on suspend in particular has largely been resolved on newer mainboards, firmware, and kernel updates, though I don't have an 11th-gen Intel and haven't run Ubuntu for a long time.
Kernel updates fixed this on my 12th-gen, firmware updates fixed it on my 7040, and my Ultra 7 155H never experienced this issue.
Which kernel upgrade? I have a dell precision with 12th Generation Intel i5-12500H, and it can't suspend properly. The suspend is even flaky and fails to suspend at all half the time. I run fedora with a very new kernel. It has a Nvidia GPU though. But then again - it is "Ubuntu certified"...
Another consideration that has really come true for me is repairs - I accidentally spilled a bottle of gin over my framework and was able to only replace the main board for under half the cost of a brand new machine.
We can admire Framework's commitment to repairable hardware without pretending that it's unique. I spilled my drink of choice on my Alienware X17 and was able to replace the keyboard for $100 from AliExpress armed only with a Phillips head.
Is it an OEM part with the same quality as the original? Will AliExpress carry the part 5 years from now? (Framework systems are backward/forward compatible).
If you spilled your drink on your Framework keyboard from your 13" system that you bought 5 years ago and you bought a replacement from Framework, you'd be getting a better and improved model of the keyboard. Same deal with issues like cracked screens, webcams, and batteries - since the original Framework came out, the company has upgraded those parts, and makes them available to people who bought the original system.
AliExpress 3rd party battery replacements are basically never as good as OEM.
That level of support is is unique and you are trying to downplay it as something that other OEM offers, and I think that's a little bit facetious.
That's close to double the repair cost. No warranty, since Aliexpress. Probably no options for non-US English keyboard replacements. And I would be very surprised if that keyboard replacement was still available for purchase on Aliexpress in 5 years.
I was really close to getting a Framework earlier this year, but ultimately landed on a Thinkpad T14 Gen 5 because at the time, the price gap was significant (the Thinkpad was $250 cheaper) and the T14 still had a better CPU. Not to mention the T14 has expandable RAM, replaceable battery, screen, and keyboard, and is acceptably thin and light.
In the end, I think the Framework is worth it if you have a desire to support the company and the mission, but I think most people should go refurbished if they only care about value.
It depends what you are looking for. If you care about overall price you don't buy brand new.
I want something that can run an Linux, IDE and some tooling that I can stick in my bag and not care too much about it so I buy refurbs. Often there isn't much wrong with them other than minor cosmetic damage.
I always go for Dell Business or Lenovo Thinkpads. There are plenty of spare parts available online. They typically work well with Linux & BSDs. I can get a laptop that was a flag ship a few years ago for like 1/3rd the price and often it is more than good enough.
The problem your overlooking is not just the upgrade vs new cost, but also the parts issue.
Buying a brand new Framework tend to be more expensive then a ~ Chinese Laptop.
*New vs Upgrade*
In general, you can sell a second hand laptop at around 50% of the original price, about 2 years down the line (assuming you did not damage it).
So a new upgrade will be 50% cheaper. For that you tend to get (depending on the generation jump), more storage, more memory, potential better screen, faster CPU.
While a Framework upgrade may mean you gain a new Motherbord+CPU for the price of that equivalent laptop. But here you run into another economic issue. Sure, you can transplant your 2100mhz memory but what if 2660 is the standard. So you CPU upgrade is going to get throttled.
*Changes*
What if memory changed with a inner generational. So now that memory you had before is useless. You can recover some value, but are still forced to buy the generation memory.
That wifi card, 5e ... great, but now your getting maybe 6 standard in a new laptop.
Also do not forget, your laptop will have more wear and tear vs a new device. Keyboard may become a issue. Your oled screen may have reduced coloring after 1 or 2 generation of usage (oleds suffer from high screen brightness, and laptop are more often in locations like outdoors that run at 100% brightness).
*Compatibility*
What about compatibility? Maybe you had a Intel based Framework laptop, with a intel wifi card. The problem is, some intel wifi cards need specific intel instructions onboard the CPU. So now you upgraded to AMD but your wifi card becomes useless.
Yes, a new laptop is rolling the dice regarding defects or other issues. But so is upgrading a framework. The problem is, your getting all the not so fun parts of a desktop's upgradability, without the cost saving potential of a desktop.
*Resell issue*
Selling your framework memory, wifi card etc will not be a big issue. But the moment you want to sell a older part, now what? Great that you upgraded from 1080p screen to 4k by yourself, but who is going to buy your 1080p screen? Your at best looking at a small market of framework owners, and a even smaller market of framework owners that need a new screen (maybe to replace a damaged one).
What about the bezel changes? What about the keyboard? What is your buyers market. Sure, maybe you can sell your old MB/CPU but even that is a VERY specialized market of people, who maybe need one to repair their framework, or want a custom nas (cheaper to just buy a mini-pc from the dozens of Chinese brands) or the few people who run a very old framework mb, and upgrade (what about their selling 2+ generation old MB/CPU combo).
*Buyers*
Framework really is for people who do not like to change laptops / get used to new ones, and who have no issue taking in the extra costs of those upgrade potential. But then again, i see people running macbooks M1's still (darm good laptops), for 5 years. They did not need the upgrade path.
It really depends on you, what you really value. But from a economic point of view, your not going to be cheaper in the long run with a framework, and that is not the selling point also.
+1 on this... I keep saying, I wish that System76 could work with Framework to sell a model with PopOS preinstalled and supported by System76. I'd pay an extra $200 just for that, not that everyone would be willing to pay extra since Framework is already at a bit of a price premium. Most other Linux vendors (Tuxedo, Slimbook, etc) seem to be mostly EU centered and based, which is a bit of a negative if you're in the US.
I don't think Linux users would pay for it. It would pretty much be a loss (support isna form of insurance--you have a pool of covered users, and they need not in aggregate cost more than the company takes in). And System76 needs to also change the firmware to support Linux (is why buying the Clevo model they co-designed and throwing Linux on it won't work like you hope.)
Plus, I suspect System76 would want to have a lot of control over the design that they would end up on the hook for.
If you want PopOS and/or System76 support, they're right there. You can just buy and use their kit.
Maybe Framework could be another System76 ODM, though.
I think a large economic value also comes from repair-ability. If nothing ever breaks (until battery dies), I don't think anyone can compete with entry level MacBook in terms of experience/price.
> I don't think anyone can compete with entry level MacBook in terms of experience/price.
It depends on what you want.
About a week ago I got a new 15" laptop with a Ryzen 7 6800H (8 cores / 16 threads) | Radeon 680M | 32 GB of RAM | 1 TB SSD | 1080p IPS panel for $570 USD. That 680m is an integrated GPU that can use up to 8 GB of your system RAM for its VRAM.
I put Arch Linux on it and it's quite nice. Things are very snappy.
A Macbook Air is almost 4x the price with the same memory / storage or 2x if you're ok with 16 GB of memory and a 256 GB SSD. No doubt the Air is going to be lighter, have better battery life and be quieter but this other one isn't too bad. Sure it has fans and sure it weighs 4.5 pounds but it's not a deal breaker.
Apple is impossible to compare against in the sense that MacOS is a giant question-mark, with an unknown positive or negative value, depending on the user.
I guess we could do an apples-to-apples comparison (Linux or Windows performance on Macs that have it). Not sure how that works out, though.
I’ve had to get a couple MacBook Airs and MacBook Pros repaired by Apple when we took over an office that didn’t have IT staff.
It was surprisingly not as expensive as I thought it would be. There are also 3rd party options that will swap in parts for you or try to repair things.
It’s not as satisfying as ordering the parts and changing it out yourself but at this point I don’t prioritize repairs or failures in my buying decisions any more.
This is both hilarious and so perfect, because they're still external adaptors, they're frickin' USB-C dongles! They just fit them within the bounding box of the laptop.
Such a simple, effective solution (if you're willing to sacrifice some volume)
> they're still external ... They just fit them within the bounding box of the laptop
Erm, yeah, external means outside of something. This is a perfectly valid thing to say. Are PCIe cards "external" because you can plug them in? Obviously not.
It looks like the Ethernet one actually sticks out of the case so that's even more external - I think I would actually prefer a standard USB-C adapter in this case.
I built a ROG Zephyrus equivalent: The ROG is $2,100 and the Framework is $2700.
So its more expensive but not $1500 vs $4000 expensive.
This was comparing the lowest end model ROG because that's the only one with a 5070. It was also 100% like-for-like, such as paying for windows, something I personally wouldn't do with a framework.
Judging by my experience with the Framework 13, you gain basically nothing going pre-built. The DIY work required is laughable. It's so, so easy and simple. If you don't account for nervousness, you could do it in 5 min, no problem. Comes with a very nice little screw driver, which is all you need.
IMO Framework is a gimmick company that capitalizes on techie hipsters who buy into their story. The repairability case is very weak - in 10+ years of owning laptops I never had one fail, they are reliable enough that outside the warranty period if they die I am fine with taking the L and buying a new one (and mine spent a bunch of time in a backpack on my motorcycle in pouring rain, getting smushed on bus rides, used in cafes). The only thing that dies eventually is battery capacity and it starts showing signs of use/wear.
Modding and upgrade story is more compiling and worth paying a premium in special cases, but their upgrade story is weak. They lag behind HW releases and they don't even support the strongest CPU chip available on the market right now (Ryzen 395), they just sell it as that silly desktop brick. Meanwhile Asus has it in a 14 inch tablet form factor at a better price.
It feels like this mobile chip has been hijacked for a bunch of mini desktops, a single ASUS tablet that you can’t use with a keyboard without a desk to stand it on, and a single HP laptop that (while actually the only real mobile computer) is priced insanely for even the low RAM variants.
Not to mention, the integrated GPU is decent for casual use as well. Though you probably want to run a distro that will get a 6.16+ kernel update sooner than later for improved support of the "AI" models.
It’s not really a gaming laptop, it’s more like a workstation that happens to be decent at gaming.
They’ve even mentioned in another video I watched that their fastest growing segment is business customers.
Their systems have unique features and value proposition nobody else is offering so they can charge more than competitors.
Let’s also not forget that the gaming market does have a high end segment that is definitely in this price range. This costs less than a Razer Blade 16 with the same GPU. If you’re trying to compare a Framework to throwaway MSI trash with horrendous longevity that just isn’t an equivalent product.
Might as well be saying “why buy a Toyota RAV4 when a Dodge Hornet is cheaper?” Well, one of those is priced higher because it’s a better long-term buy.
> Their systems have unique features and value proposition nobody else is offering so they can charge more than competitors.
But that also puts them out of the market of users where those unique features would be a selling point but are not required which is probably much bigger.
Yes, that’s the idea. Dell and HP cover the much bigger market. If you don’t need unique features there are other choices on the market. Framework is filling a previously unmet demand.
It could certainly be called a niche but they have been doing quite well for themselves in that space.
I am wondering about the RAM extensibility. The 7040 can be extended to have 128GB RAM (for example Crucial CT2K64G56C46S5) - anyone knows if the same still works?
We're testing those specific modules now. Initial testing shows that it should work the same as on 7040 Series, but we will complete validation before updating our Knowledge Base article on memory compatibility.
My experience with all these high-powered laptops is that they overheat and throttle when under load. I prefer the low-wattage CPUs and intel graphics: they don't overheat and the battery lasts much longer.
> We were the first laptop maker to ship a USB-C 180W adapter with the original Framework Laptop 16, and somehow nearly two years later, we may be the first to ship with 240W too!
That is truly wild. When I first discovered that heavy gaming drains the battery in the FW16 I went out to search for a more powerful USB-C power supply. No results. Best I could find was a paltry 140W one. Definitely upgrading this part.
That is really cool. One thing I have to ask though. Does the Framework have the same problem as other bottom intake fans that collect dust inside the fan?
It really depends on your usage environment, but one good thing is that its probably easier to clean the fans on a Framework Laptop than on most other laptops!
Fantastic update, it has everything that made the first version a dealbreaker for me - it was just too weak. I feared Framework will position its 2in1 as a "student laptop", glad to hear they expand on it.
We sorely need more competition in the 2in1 segment, there aren't many good options. Either gaming laptops (no long commitment, bad build quality) or Lenovo Yogas (bad value, limited/weak hw options).
Given the 2.1kg after detaching the graphic module and the seemingly large battery capacity for on the go sessions, it's so close to a laptop that fits all my use cases.
Although from what I've read 8GB of VRAM seems insufficiently near-future proof, so I've always been eyeing 5070ti+ laptops. I wonder if there's any technical blocker that prevents offering 5070ti or the amd equivalent.
I just bought a Framework 16 7840HS last week and now it's 7% off. Guess I should have waited a little longer. Glad to see they're committing to upgrades for it, though, so I guess it was still a good investment
Write them and ask if you could get the rebate. The times I've had this happened to me when shopping from small/medium-sized businesses they've been nice enough to either give me a refund for the difference, or at least a coupon for future purchases.
Very nice. Glad Framework finally updated the CPU/APU on this because I really want the Ryzen AI APU in a 16 inch form factor (I don't care about dedicated GPUs though).
Copilot supports it.
And on windows you can try AMD tools like https://github.com/lemonade-sdk/lemonade to run arbitrary LLMs. AMD is actively developing support for the NPU.
I love the modularity, but unlike the 13" version this one is just too bulky. For this reason I am eyeing up Thinkpad P1, even though it is only available with an Intel CPU.
Do you mean it's bulky even compared to other 16" laptops, or just that a 16" laptop is too bulky for you? Because I know they're not for everyone but I like larger laptops (am currently on 15.6") and was pleasantly surprised when they came out with the 16" as I thought the trend was generally towards smaller laptops.
Thinkpad P1 is 1.8kg whereas Framework 16" is 2.4kg - substantial difference. And P1 even looks less bulkier overall. This is quite unfortunate, because I would rather buy Framework than Lenovo.
I use a P1 and I don't think I'd buy another. The fan runs a lot. When I carry it in my backpack, I have to remember to do a complete shutdown otherwise I'll pull a very hot machine with a mostly depleted battery out of my backpack when I get to my destination.
Outside of Apple, there doesn't seem to be many good fanless laptops. I'd love to see Framework come up with something.
The launch video for this new Framework Laptop 16 mentioned firmware improvements to disable wake on keypress when the laptop's screen is closed, specifically to prevent the type of situation you mentioned. I've personally experienced similar issues with an XPS 15 in the past; I'm hopeful this type of change will help.
Thanks for the info! My current laptop is T14s Gen 3 which I find perfect, but the screen size is a big insufficient for programming. I will be looking for a 16" laptop and currently there aren't that many options with a centred keyboard.
I've really wanted a Framework laptop ever since they became available, however as a power user with poor eyesight, anything less than 17" is an automatic deal-breaker for me. I need the text to be legible if a full page is displayed in a PDF reader that's snapped to fill half the screen.
Random question for framework owners - my 1st gen Framework 13 recently started screaming it's fans all day, every day, even when it's asleep.
Where's the best places to go for troubleshooting, user guides, etc? I've played with all the bios and framework settings I can find, so I'm guessing it's hardware related, if that changes the resource recommendations.
> Where's the best places to go for troubleshooting, user guides, etc?
I guess general "laptop maintenance" guides should be good enough? Guides that mention things like "Clean out all the dust/vent-junk once every X months/years" (if you have pets, you can't do this often enough it seems) and "redoing the thermal paste each X year".
Repaste is a likely solution, since that generation was before we switched to Honeywell phase change thermal interface material. Traditional thermal paste will slowly pump out over time. We do have Honeywell material in our Marketplace. You can also reach out to our support team for help.
I've been a 13" laptop user since forever, so I'm kind of curious, what's the target user and usecase for this laptop? Gamers and people who need a bigger screen?
Will framework be able to do what ThinkPad $model did with the additional battery slot? Just curious, if anyone in the know is hanging around here. Is the 100wh FAA restriction across batteries?
I can't unsee nano-texture on MacBook Pro (for the better), and so any other display drives me crazy now -- including Apple's own MacBook Air. Wish more companies would offer this!
It absolutely is a valid complaint. Having true blacks is a night and day difference that you don't want to go back on once you have experienced it. OTOH many OLED panels have weird sub-pixel layouts that are bad for text display but that's something that Framework is a better position to have input on than an end user.
I personally just cannot accept that there’s no WWAN option available. Tethering with your phone is just nowhere close to what one would expect out of it in 2025.
I'm surprised this hasn't happened yet. Especially for a convertible like the Framework 12, a WWAN option seems like an obvious win - and I know there are existing USB WWAN adapters out there.
Hopefully this will be taken more seriously in the gaming laptop/productivity market. I'm really glad there's a properly repairable, relatively open high performance laptop.
Is there any plans or similar for a 14in GPU enabled (with a decent TGP) laptop? I got a 14in laptop recently and find it very good for a power/perforamnce tradeoff (ASUS G14 or Razer Blade 14). Not to mention the amazing battery life.
What do you mean by high end? The Framework 13 can be configured with an AMD AI 370 (12 cores/24 threads zen5), a 2.8k 120 hz display, 96GB of ram and an 8TB SSD. That seems pretty high end to me?
It would be nice to see a 5070 Ti, 5080, or even Quadro-grade RTX 5000 ADA for graphics-oriented workloads.
I'm not sure the type-c (200-230w) would be sufficient to run these cards at their reccomended TGP (150w) + CPU (50w) + charge - not that most 16" productivity-oriented notebooks do (70-115W).
They could run in lower power mode(s)... Given the power/cooling requirements for the module, I'm not sure they'd perform much better than the 5070 option already there. Another comment mentioned the 5070 is configured to run at 100W.
Or... NVidia could allow 16gb with a 5070. It's relatively arbitrary anyway, and the power limits are mostly in conjunction with thermal limits in their module design anyway, so it likely makes less relative sense to go up the stack at those limits.
Issue is that the circuitry to convert the USB-C PD 20V to e.g. 12V and 5V for componenets results in a power loss - so realistically take 5-10% off any USB-C adapter's wattage.
Gaming/productivity laptops of similar size ship with 300W power bricks now (e.g. MSI Vector 16 HX AI with RTX5090 ships with a 330W adapter to satisfy its 240W system power). It's also why most still use their own connector (ASUS decided to use their own connector due to conversion efficiency and heat issues with USB-C at high wattage).
Still, 330W pales in comparison of the TGP of a desktop-class RTX5070 (requires 250W). Nevermind the RTX5090's requirements (575W).
Kinda wish you guys didn't have an Nvidia product at all. It's only really useful for Windows users, but openly hostile and offensive to Linux desktop users.
NVIDIA's stance on Linux aside, from a practical point of view the one thing I've had the most issues with in practice while using them together was the abomination that is Optimus. Considering they mention a mux for outputting directly to the display, it sounds like this might be a bit less of a pain to get working since it sounds like you should be able to just have one GPU active at a time (instead of both of them having to work together).
I too, have always had success using NVIDIA cards with my Fedora Linux. I suspect that the people who have problems are doing something differently, like running the proprietary installer instead of using packages (RPM Fusion's akmod-nvidia packages in the case of Fedora).
I run FreeBSD on a machine with an NVIDIA card and it works pretty well, even if the driver is a little sketchy. If it works on FreeBSD of all things I'm going to guess it works well on Linux.
I run Xorg, though. I guess Wayland is a sticking point.
It does, GP is just exaggerating. Historically people find Nvidia annoying because the drivers are closed-source, it didn't work well with Wayland for years, etc., but it's just not true to say it doesn't work.
Virtually all AI training is done on Linux with Nvidia hardware. In the desktop space, I've run Linux with Nvidia for many, many years. It's utter nonsense to claim that Nvidia isn't useful on Linux.
I don't know a single person that bought a Framework and put Windows on it as the primary OS.
I wish Framework would actually find out what their customers are using, maybe with a survey, because I'd be highly surprised if it was less than 2/3rds Linux (or other FOSS).
I keep Windows on my Framework (11th gen Intel) because using Linux on it makes it suffer from inability to sleep and terrible battery life. I've tried all the tricks to make Linux work and I've only eeked out an extra hour of use, if that.
Nvidia "working" on Linux requires binary drivers that often have severe issues, especially if your mainline stable kernel is too new.
The new open source drivers that replace Novaeu aren't ready yet, and the closed source drivers had relentless drama over, first, refusal to support Wayland (after the head of Xorg, Keith Packard, officially announced the end of X development, and, second, how all future development will be for Wayland), and then trying to hijack the process with their unwanted EGLstreams API until finally relenting and supporting GBM.
Like it or not, Nvidia is the dominant player in the GPU space. They have objectively the most powerful GPUs and the best support for development (CUDA).
It would be cutting out a massive chunk of Framework's potential customers to not even offer Nvidia GPUs.
I don't like Nvidia at all, they're a scummy company. But just offering their products as an option is not "openly hostile and offensive" to Linux users. That's a bizarre take.
Until modern times, Intel was the largest GPU manufacture, unless you include phones, then it was Qualcomm.
Now it's AMD, between computers, consoles, and the datacenter.
DGPUs for the desktop aren't really all that relevant for either AMD and NV's bottom lines, they're not major sellers. Switch sales also aren't enough to compete with combined Xbox/Playstation sales.
A lot of claims of NV's superiority is just marketing smoke and mirrors.
Calling Intel the largest GPU manufacturer is a bit of a joke.
Yes, technically they make many by volume. But they are very limited integrated GPUs. Fine for basic encoding/decoding operations, not really practical outside of browsing and e-mail checking.
AMD has been doing fantastic in the mobile and console space, I admit that. Their products are decently energy efficient and powerful for what they are. But they're struggling to keep up with the leading edge and their market share is tanking because of it.
Nvidia has a 92% market share in the discrete GPU market, with AMD holding 8% and Intel 0%.
It isn't a "bit of a joke" when the graphics teams behind normal desktop apps and browsers put more work into making sure the thing works on Intel than they have for AMD and Nvidia. They know what the majority of users use.
Nobody cares if Nvidia sells lots of DGPUs if ye average Fortune 500 company isn't deploying devices with DGPUs in them and the app they're paying a million dollars a year for suddenly breaks on Intel.
People need to remember that there is an entire world of computing outside of datacenters and high performance desktops.
NV's real superiority is developer market share. Too many things are developed for Nvidia first with other options an afterthought if supported at all.
Most things are developed for standardized APIs, not any specific vendor.
For things that are hyperoptimized for a specific vendor, it is usually for AMD, not Nvidia, because most of that time spent optimizing is not done for enterprise compute (as _very little_ optimization is done, companies just buy more GPUs instead of writing better software, under the mistaken belief that developer time is more expensive than GPU TCO) but for game engines.
Game engines that are highly optimized for hardware are doing it for the consoles, both of which are AMD.
The only thing superior about NV is their marketing department.
And the Nvidia option is a 5070 with no better options, so while I’d love to support Framework, there’s no point when MSI regularly ships better products.
You've got a 16 inch Laptop, why are the arrow keys so tiny! And where's the PgUp PgDn Home End Insert Delete cluster? I wish a design-based shop like Framework would have some leadership in the keyboard area. This is why I have been exclusively Thinkpads for my last 3 laptops.
Something more niche is that I also enjoy the mouse buttons above the trackpad, I can move with the thumb and click with a finger.
The keyboards have full NKRO support and are fully mappable with QMK firmware, plus they offer blank key caps AND a macro or numpad input module. That feels like plenty of leadership to me - that's unheard of in any other laptop. Can't please everyone I guess.
> Can't please everyone I guess.
This is such a lame response to valid criticism.
Key remapping is not a feature that you need hardware support for and neither are macros - both can be done in the OS and/or user-space software. Different prints on key caps are also not important at all since you shouldn't need them in the first place and hardly a response to someone being unhappy with the physical keyboard layout. So basically you're saying that because Framework already provides the easy parts that the user could already do in software now no one is allowed to complain about the physical layout that users cannot alter.
Did you miss:
> numpad input module
You can literally add a physical numpad if you want: https://frame.work/gb/en/products/16-numpad?v=FRAKDM0001
If they designed their keyboard ergonomically, they wouldn't need numpad modules. But yes, can't please everyone, too many people with low standards easily pleasable
Bit pedantic… being satisfied with less is a quality, let’s not forget this.
Positive or negative quality?
To me, it’s a positive quality.
> And where's the PgUp PgDn Home End Insert Delete cluster?
I'm typing this comment on a first gen framework 16 keyboard. It's the same layout as the second gen in OP, where PgUp/PgDown are bound to fn+KeyUp fn+KeyDown and Home/End are bound to fn+KeyLeft fn+KeyRight.
I actually prefer the bindings over dedicated buttons since if I need to use home/end, I'm probably also going to need to go to the previous/next line with the up/down keys.
Likewise, I would kill for gaps between Esc/F1, F4/F5, and F8/F9. ThinkPads do this although it is very subtle.
The gaps let you use the the function keys by feel rather than looking at them. They tend to be mapped in debuggers so hitting the wrong key is a big deal.
I actually don't mind the smaller arrow keys as again, they make it easier to drive by feel rather than by looking.
My fantasy for the Laptop 16 keyboard: Optional taller hinges and thicker bezel.
Think about it... Replacement hinges that separate the upper and lower shell by an extra 1/8-1/4" plus a thicker bezel to fill that gap. Suddenly (at the cost of a thicker laptop, for those of us who don't mind) you have extra space under the screen for longer key throw, contoured key caps, trackpoint, arrow keys that overlap the lower deck to allow a proper inverted-T layout, etc. Maybe even possible to retrofit old ThinkPad keyboards in there.
Hey, I can dream, can't I?
At least the arrow keys are all the same size, unlike that super common awful design where the left and right keys are twice the size of the up and down keys.
My last 3 laptops have also been Thinkpads. In addition to the mouse buttons above the trackpad, I also enjoy Thinkpad's trackpoint. Too bad Framework doesn't offer any mouse buttons and trackpoint on their keyboards, otherwise I might have considered them.
Same here. I've been using Lenovo/ThinkPads for the last 12 years mainly because of the pointer. It's perfect for programming. I'm more productive and focused when I keep my hands on the home row all the time. I don't see myself ever going back to a touchpad.
The company actually put a video out a yesterday or the day before about adding a trackpoint - they're open to the idea, but they're all too tall! They actually tried to add it, but it always put pressure on the screen because their keyboards are too low-profile to accommodate one.
I watched that video yesterday. Too bad. I'm glad they have looked into it at least. But too bad that Lenovo is able to build laptops with a trackpoint but not them. I don't see myself using a touchpad again if I can avoid it, so I'm afraid I will keep using ThinkPads for the foreseeable future.
> Something more niche is that I also enjoy the mouse buttons above the trackpad, I can move with the thumb and click with a finger.
This logic is why I like the tiny arrow keys. I find it pretty easy to move my pinky over and tap one of those keys. With full size keys, I find that doesn't really work.
I was just badgering Gemini to find me a modern laptop with keys like the PowerBook g4. It looks like everything went chiclet style keys around 2012.
Still on the lookout for anything that’s not chiclet based, but they literally don’t exist.
How about the mechanical keys on the alienware m15 / m17?
https://dell.alienwarearena.com/alienware-debuts-the-worlds-...
I really wish it was just low profile...
I have half a mind to buy a really rough looking PB G4, gut it, and see what kind of very small Pi or N100 shaped thing I can fit inside.
Still my favorite laptop of all time. Wish I could buy a new one with modern internals.
You probably want a full numpad shifting the entire keyboard off-center as well?
No, this is something terrible the modern thinkpads have. My 2018 era thinkpads have the pg up/down arrow keys and a regular full width keyboard. That's what I want, anyway.
I mean, they made their keyboard swappable, with open-source firmware. If you are passionate enough, you can make (and sell) a replacement that solves these issues.
Making custom electronics goes way beyond "passionate" and into "has specialized skills and enough capital to get these made".
I think "well just make the PR yourself" comments are too reductionist myself, but in this case Framework does have space for 3rd party components in the marketplace. I don't think it'd be crazy to imagine some custom keyboards will appear there.
And here's an example of someone making a custom keyboard: https://blog.perprogramming.com/posts/framework-ortholinear-... - it looks pretty awesome, and I'm fairly sure this is the first time I've ever seen a laptop with an ergo keyboard like that.
Framework 16 is a collection of modules, so I think complaining about the modules is fair game, but it could also be seen as a basis/standard that isn't expected to fit everyone's needs, but fit maybe 90% and allow other people to make the customizations they need easier, in which case complaining about they arrow keys on a single component does feel a bit trivial.
> but fit maybe 90%
Bad keyboards fit 0% to the point of injuring x%. Now try to trivialize this more realistic number
How exactly does typing Fn+ArrowDown instead of PgDn lead to injuries?
Why would you miss the keyboard forest that's explicitly linked to in the comment for the tiny blade of grass that is PgDn?
I'm glad the AMD GPU option still exists, I don't have great experience with NVIDIA on Linux. The rest of the upgrades, like the new top cover and keyboard, are very welcome
With the advent of Steam deck and Valve putting time and effort into AMD GPU drivers the AMD GPU is really the best option for Linux when it comes to general desktop stuff and gaming.
The days of Nvidia proprietary drivers being a safe bet is long gone. Especially for any sort of Wayland desktop, but it still applies to X11.
Intel drivers should be good as well, since they use the same Mesa code base.
With the ROCm stuff no longer depending on AMD Pro then there is not going to be any reason to step away from the default GPU drivers provided by your distro, provided they are relatively new.
While I am sure that there are still going to be professional-grade proprietary apps that recommend Nvidia... for most of us the only reason to actually go and choose Nvidia on Linux is because of CUDA. And, personally, I would rather lease time on the cloud or have a second GPU work horse PC separate from my desktop for that.
Unfortunately Nvidia is, by far, the most popular option for Windows users. Over 4:1 ratio according to Steam statistics.
So most new Linux users are still going to have to suffer through dealing with their GPU drivers.
> Intel drivers should be good as well, since they use the same Mesa code base.
They use the same front end but that says very little about the quality of the overall driver. Performance is mostly determined by the shader compiler and other hardware-specific parts which obviously differ between Intel and AMD.
I came to say the same thing. In the late 2010s I ran Linux on a work-issued Lenovo P50 with a Nvidia Quadro M2000M. It was such a miserable experience that I swore to never own another NVIDIA product again.
Given both Framework and NVIDIA's checkered histories around Linux driver support, I see no reason to revisit that, but it is interesting to see the voices in this thread with positive NVIDIA experience.
I said in another comment but exact same experience here (though about a decade later), same laptop and gpu. It's a shame because the P50 is so nice otherwise.
Maybe its just a problem with older Nvidia gpu's, but its not a gamble I want to take
It'd be nice if I could upgrade my old Framework into this spec. Infinitely upgradeable is nice on a per product line basis. But new product lines still lead to obsolescence and in this case regret.
You can upgrade your old Framework 16 to this. Framework 13 wouldn't work anyway because it's a different chassis.
That's exactly my point. When I bought the 13 I figured there would be these kinds of upgrades down the road. You're right to say that was stupid and it was. And next there will be the framework 17, a 16 that's not backwards compatible or something?
Like the other commenter mentioned, you can upgrade the 13". It's pretty common for laptops to come in two classes: smaller with a focus on portability and larger with a focus on performance.
There's a reason why a lot of us sat on the sidelines and were looking forward to the 16". There is no slippery slope here, the differentiated product lines 100% make sense.
Edit: there is another class I could see making sense - desktop replacement. Those chassis' tend to be pretty chunky because they put desktop parts into a laptop. Think 10 lb laptop with a battery that lasts 20-30 minutes. But I'm not sure if the market is large enough for them to pursue it.
> When I bought the 13 I figured there would be these kinds of upgrades down the road.
Unless you already have the Ryzen AI 300 motherboard - in which case you're up to date - you can upgrade your motherboard right now:
https://frame.work/marketplace?compatibility%5B%5D=amd_ryzen...
You can hardly expect Framework to reconfigure the physical structure of your laptop to support a new GPU card when the device didn't have one to begin with.
You seem to be looking for something to complain about.
The 13" is upgradeable, just not in the same way the 16" is. It shouldn't be surprising that you can fit more stuff in a chassis for a 16" laptop than an 13" laptop, not to mention it's harder to deal with thermal issues in a 13" laptop. While it's not unheard of, it's much less common to see a dGPU in a 13" laptop, and Framework is no exception there.
I've upgraded my Framework 13 a bunch already since I bought it in 2022, and will hopefully continue to do so for years.
There are a bunch of upgrades that have come out for the 13, new gens of intel and AMD boards, new displays, new keyboard options, etc.
I think you are making up a scenario that is not real.
You assume Framework will just abandon models willy nilly and make slight model line changes to break compatibility like moving from 16” to 17”, but in reality they have no track record of doing that.
The original 13” model has been around for 5+ years and it’s been 100% forward and backward compatible through multiple iterations of parts. Framework has never discontinued a product line.
Obviously we can’t predict the future.
As framework doesn't produce their own hardware, they're also forced to live with the reality that generations are also bound by the whims of the producers.
E.g sockets and chipsets change and will force incompatible changes, no matter how much framework would like to keep things stable.
Not sure what you mean by "produce". Nearly no PC/laptop brand actually manufactures their own hardware.
Framework does work with ODMs (Compal, I believe, is their main one?) to design mainboards for their chassis, which are designed specifically for Framework. It's not like they just take an off-the-shelf design and build it without any modifications.
And yes, chipsets change. (A "socket" changing isn't really a thing when we're talking about a laptop where the CPU/SoC is soldered in.) Generally this isn't a problem, though: as long as you can design something that physically fits in the chassis and supports the features you want, you're fine.
The socket still has a significant impact, even if the CPU is soldered on. It puts constraints on where things can be.
I believe the framework CEO himself mentioned in an interview how the chipset and socket are kinda at the core of designing the whole laptop, because it necessitates the placement of the cooling and all other components. I sadly didn't bookmark that YouTube video, so I cannot provide a link however
And fwiw, Apple is the only company that could make their laptops fully compatible and upgradeable, because they've got the relevant stack under their own control. Sadly, they're not interested in reducing ewaste, as that would mean less profit for them
This isn't a new product line, it's an upgrade to an existing line - exactly what the company promises.
On the OP page, it says:
> Pick up all these upgrades from our Marketplace to extend the life of your existing Framework Laptop 16.
As far as I can tell, these upgrades (aside from the discrete graphics) bring the 16-inch in line with the 13-inch.
I'd be more concerned about what I'd be able to do with an older 16-inch mainboard, as the 13-inch has the Cooler Master case options.
Still rocking the Intel Tiger Lake 13-inch here, mixed Windows / Ubuntu workflow, loads of RAM.
It's so weird to hear people who have problems with NVIDIA GPUs on Linux, because for me it's always been the opposite. I have had problems with AMD but never with NVIDIA.
When the AMD driver was named "radeon" nvidia was better, but since "amdgpu" came out things have flipped.
Is this because the driver itself has changed in its operation or just from the name change breaking lots of code that referenced the "radeon" name?
They were referencing a time, in the middle of the 2010's, when "amdgpu" was released. It is a completely rewritten, different driver, and is mostly open source [0]. Before that, the driver was named "radeon" and it was very shaky. I can speak to this personally. I had desktop Linux systems with both AMD/ATI and Nvidia GPUs, and while there were some issues with Nvidia, the AMD/ATI drivers gave me nightmares.
Once the rewritten "amdgpu" driver came out, things got much better. The first few cards created after that (IIRC the Polaris GPUs, RX 400's), the situation reversed. I still have had occasional issues with various Nvidia cards (normally driver updates breaking things), but for almost a decade now, I have not had issues with AMD GPUs under Linux.
[0] Except for pro features while using workstation cards. You need to use a proprietary driver for those, but even those share a lot of code with the open source driver.
You have this largely right, but I need to defend the Radeon driver a bit here. The driver that caused all the problems was the proprietary fglrx driver, not the open source Radeon driver. The issue with the Radeon driver wasn’t stability, it was that it was 2d acceleration only.
it was 2d acceleration only
Not completely true either, it eventually supported most of the normal 3d primitives but gaming performance was never a priority because there were few developers and they weren't employed by AMD/ATI -- which also meant that some cards would only reach full feature support after their EOL, sadly.
The amdgpu also driver benefits from a lot of the groundwork that has been done since. The radeon driver is older than kernel features like KMS (kernel modesetting) and GEM (graphics execution manager), and the LLVM-based shader compiler in mesa (userspace). I'd say that the radeon driver was actually the proving ground for many of these features, because it was the most capable open source 3d driver: The Intel 845/915 hardware barely supported 3d operations, and the only 3d-capable open source driver for Nvidia was the reverse-engineered nouveau driver.
Luckily, many people working on the amdgpu driver are actually on AMD's payroll these days.
AMD had developers working on radeon (the older open source kernel driver) and radeonsi (the open source user-space OpenGL driver backend for newer cards in Mesa that now sits on top of amdgpu) before the switch to amdgpu (the newer open source kernel driver). While the kernel driver isn't irrelevant for performance, it depends more on the user space portion (radeonsi and r600 before that) which was kept with the amdgpu switch. What the amdgpu driver brought is more sharing of display code with their windows drivers. The main difference in performance is between r600 (mostly developed without financial support from AMD) and radeonsi (mostly developed by AMD). Of course these days the most relevant user-space portion is radv (open source Vulkan driver in Mesa) which is NOT developed by AMD but rather funded by Valve (and at least initially Red Hat). There is also the open source amdvlk Vulkan user-space driver developed by AMD which is the same as their proprietary Vulkan driver except with the proprietary shader compiler swapped out for the same LLVM backend that radeonsi uses. And if this all wasn't confusing enough, AMD also calls the full driver package with the proprietary Vulkan driver and some snapshot of the open source OpenGL Mesa drivers (radeonsi) "amdgpu-pro".
I remember! I stand corrected on the name and the issues!
I forgot that name "fglrx", probably a mental self-defense mechanism. Those were some bad times, trying to get different display outputs to work at the same time, guessing and testing values in xorg.conf, so on. There was some community utility someone wrote to try and help with installation, reinstallation, configuration and reconfiguration, but the name eludes me now.
I would edit my post to correct it, but it seems the edit window has passed.
The first few cards created after that (IIRC the Polaris GPUs, RX 400's)
Even Sea Islands/Southern Islands were much better with amdgpu (but you have to use a module parameter to enable support).
And with that release, my ASUS 1215B was downgraded from OpenGL 4.1 into OpenGL 3.3, it took several years for the open source driver to catch up in features to the old closed source driver, and when it finally did, my netbook was at the end of its life.
Ah and hardware video decoding never ever worked again.
So much for the so called advantages of an open source driver.
That's high praise - props to the people who worked on that rewrite!
AMDgpu is the driver for newer GPUs, radeon is for the older GPUs. This is like circa 7 or 10 years ago.
So it is both driver changes and architectural changes.
There is also AMDGPU-PRO, which is the proprietary version based on AMDGPU. Used to be you'd need it for ROCm, but that hasn't been true for a while not. There really isn't any reason to use the "pro" version anymore, unless you have a some special proprietary app that requires it.
Open source GPU drivers are based on Mesa stack. So they share a common code base and support for things like Vulkan.
So it is sorta similar to how DirectX works. With old-school OpenGL drivers each stack was proprietary to the GPU manufacturer so there was lots of quirks and extensions that applied to only one or another GPU. That is one of the reasons DirectX displaced OpenGL in gaming... Microsoft 'owned' DirectX/Direct3d stack.
Well the open source equivalent to that is Mesa. Mesa provides APi support in software and it is then ported to each GPU with "dri drivers".
For gaming things have improved tremendously with "Proton", which is essentially Wine with vastly improved Direct3D support.
This is accomplished with "DXVK", which is a Direct3D to Vulkan translator.
This way Linux essentially gets close to "native windows speed" for most games that support proton in one way or another.
Which means that most games run on Linux now. Probably over 75% that are available on Steam, although "running" doesn't mean it is perfect.
One of the biggest problems faced with Linux gaming nowadays is anti-cheat features for competitive online games. Most of the software anti-piracy and anti-cheating features games use can technically work on Linux, but it is really up to the game manufacturer to make it work and support it. Linux gamers can sometimes make it work, but also they get flagged and booted and even accounts locked for being suspected of cheating.
It's a completely different driver for a different architecture. The biggest reason it works so much better is that it's open source (with some blobs, of course) and part of the mainline kernel, unlike its predecessor which was developed downstream and fully proprietary.
amdgpu replaced both the in-kernel open-source "radeon" driver, which was already open source, and the proprietary "fglrx" driver.
But the user-space portions are probably more significant for performance than the kernel drivers. Here we have:
- r300 and r600 (open source OpenGL backend for older hardware, sits on top of the radeon kernel driver, not much development happening)
- radeonsi (open source OpenGL backend for newer hardware, sits on top of either the radeon or amdgpu kernel drivers depending on hardware version and kernel configuration)
- fglrx (closed source OpenGL driver on top of the fglrx kernel driver, both obsolete now)
- radv (open source Vulkan driver on top of amdgpu)
- amgpu-pro (closed source Vulkan driver on top of amdgpu) - not sure if there is also still a proprietary OpenGL driver but if there is no one should care since radeonsi works well enough
- amdvlk (open source dumps of amdgpu-pro without proprietary shader compiler on top of amdgpu)
Then you have different shader compilers which also significantly affect both shader compile time and runtime performance:
- internal compiler used by r600
- LLVM (used by radeonsi and amdvlk)
- ACO (used by radv and possibly radeonsi these days)
- AMD's proprietary compiler (used by fglrx and amdgpu-pro)
And for X.org you also have different display drivers (fglrx, radeon, modesetting).
AMD cards are plug and play for 99% of cases with Linux now. Everything just works out of the box.
The only issues you may run into if you distro doesn't include the firmware. e.g. This was the case with Debian 11 and you had to enable the non-free repo.
The only other problem you can conceivably have is card isn't supported by the kernel because it is too new. This can be fixed by upgrading the kernel. In Debian you can use a backports kernel, I am sure there are similar options in other distros.
When I was using my old 1080Ti, I had constant issues with the NVIDIA drivers. Acceleration didn't work on the second screen sometimes. There was some magic setting that would unset itself.
Things have changed a lot since Steam deck. Especially in the last 3 or 4 years.
Mobile users suffer more problems then people with dedicated desktop GPUs, but it still gotten a lot better.
The one thing to be careful about AMD GPUs is that for most GPU OEMs AMD is just a after thought. So they get sub-par QA and heatsinks compared to their more popular Nvidia models.
It is best to go with card makers that only sell AMD GPUs, like Sapphire, PowerColor, and XFX. I am partial to Sapphire.
Had good experiences with XFX so far as well.
I have a 5070 ti running Kubuntu 25.04 and it's a mess. Animations repeating, half the desktop disappears when waking from sleep, HDMI audio cuts out... I swapped to a 7900xt and it is absolutely flawless.
Maybe things have improved, or support was just never that good for older NVIDIA GPU's (for reference, last time I used Nvidia on Linux I was running Fedora on a Thinkpad P50, which I think has a Quadro M1000M gpu), but it'd be a costly experiment to find
Nvidia driver 580 (latest stable, but not lts) was just released and is widely freezing people's systems right now.
The problem is not NVIDIA GPU, it is laptops that have iGPU (amd or intel) and Nvidia dgpu. In such a configuration the experience is really really bad in both X11 and wayland.
It's both. With Nvidia you still need a proprietary driver for anything close to full performance which causes all kinds of issues.
I'm one month into owning a GMKTec Evo-X2 with the new mad AMD gpu in it and so far I've managed to get Ollama running. ROCm doesn't officially support the GPU and everything seems to be hacky workaround on top of hacky workaround. Starting to wish I'd just waited for NVIDIA to actually release the project digits thing.
So, how did you get it running? I‘m about to get a Bosgame M5 (same CPU).
Installing the ROCm nightlies from TheRock and upgrading the linux kernel to 6.16. However the kernel upgrade breaks a ton of other things, notably dkms.
I've been trying for weeks to get ComfyUI to not explode without success.
I would recommend not wasting time with ollama, https://github.com/containers/ramalama just works on that chip.
FYI All current and future Nvidia drivers are open source, since blackwell.
But they are not in the actual Linux kernel, and are a separate module that does not adhere to Linux kernel code conventions. It also has no user-space driver that isn't NVIDIA's proprietary driver. Anything further open-source such as NVK is not being worked on by NVIDIA, but by other 3rd parties.
Compared to AMD and Intel, NVIDIA is very much not an 'out of the box', or stable experience.
Saying "and future" is like taunting fate
Anyway, in case someone was interested it seems the code itself is cited as MIT, however it has a "when it becomes a Linux .ko it becomes GPLv2" clause https://github.com/NVIDIA/open-gpu-kernel-modules/blob/580.7... and they do go out of their way to say "lol, needs binary blobs" https://github.com/NVIDIA/open-gpu-kernel-modules/blob/580.7...
That XFree86.run has always struck me as "you're gonna what*?"
To be fair, AMD's driver also needs proprietary firmware blobs. This is still infinitely better than having mistery sauce running in kernel space directly. A bigger problem is that there is no performant open source user-space counterpart like there is for AMD (Mesa with radeonsi for OpenGL and radv for Vulkan).
Kernel driver only.
Is AMD different, do they OpenSource firmware as well?
They have an open source userspace component.
I've never had anything but positive experience with Nvidia on Linux (which I've been using for 5 years or so now). That said, I'm on a desktop and not a laptop, so the hardware isn't the same. My experience might not be representative of what laptop users see.
On a laptop with multiple GPUs (Intel and nvidia Quadro) running Ubuntu and Wayland, trying to get the nvidia card working has been a nightmare. Until a recent reinstall, I couldn't load the nvidia driver or I wouldn't be able to log in to my system (graphically, I mean). If anything changed on my system to remove the blacklist I had for those modules I'd have to spend an hour trying to figure out what changed so that I could get back to work.
Now that I have it working I see random glitches here and there that I can't pin down. Some Electron apps I have to turn off GPU acceleration or they won't get any windows showing up - they launch, the process exists, they're in the dock as active, but the window doesn't appear at all.
Getting a new laptop from work to replace this one and I'm really hoping it won't have nvidia hardware - or at least, if it does I can disable it and the Intel GPU will work fine also.
I like Framework as an idea, but we're talking about a 1500$ premium over this competing 16 inch laptop.
1200$ https://www.bestbuy.com/product/gigabyte-aero-x16-copilot-pc...
I literally can buy 2 of the Gigabyte laptops for the same price.
Even if I can swap out some parts, odds are it's still easier( and cheaper) to just buy a new competing laptop ever 3 years.
If your motivation is "the environment" you can always just donate your old laptop , give it to a friend, etc. "Gaming" laptop might as well be for code for cheaper , but it has RGB and your co-workers might look at you weird.
> If your motivation is "the environment" you can always just donate your old laptop
If you care about environment make regulator force companies to make repairable and upgradeable hardware. That could actually have an impact.
Putting burden on consumer choices is one of the biggest hoaxes of modern capitalism.
All I want is safe to replace batteries and SSDs.
Both are wear parts.
Many laptops just use regular M.2 SSDs which are easy enough to replace. For me this is a requirement not just for repairs but also for the initial configuration - bundled storage options are usually too limited.
Batteries are harder because the race to reduce thickness and weight means that they are usually optimized for that rather than being some standard format you can find replacements for.
Macs already don't offer replaceable storage.
The new Surface 12 is in the same boat.
I'm not a big fan of regulation, but it would be nice to see OEMs offer professional battery replacement at a reasonable price.
100$ would be fair.
A lot of really stupid stuff can happen if you try to replace a battery.
I tried to configure it as my Thinkpad P15 from 2021, and it takes about 1000 euros more, no way I am paying over 3 000 euros for a laptop.
My big issue with any expensive portable device is I might just drop it.
I'm typing on this laptop right now. I brought it for 450 USD on sale. https://www.bestbuy.com/product/asus-vivobook-s-14-14-oled-l...
Aside from Linux driver issues, shame on our community for downplaying this, it's an amazing computer. I swapped in a 2TB SDD, and I'll be using it for years.
If I drop it or do something stupid, I'm out 450$. Even a decent Macbook is only going to be about 1500$.
At 3000 Euro, 3500 USD I'd be afraid to take it out of the house, at which point a desktop is going to be significantly cheaper, better, easier to fix and less accident prone.
For what it's worth, I accidentally flung my Framework 13 across several stairs of a lecture hall. All in all, a 3 meter drop on an arched trajectory with the lid closed. The device has not been damaged except for scratches.
I wouldn't repeat this on purpose obviously, but I came away with the impression that Framework builds are not particularly brittle.
I would not consider a single anecdote about (no) damage from dropping to mean anything at all as there is always a very high variance with that. For many devices you can drop them dozens of times without any major issues or you can get unlucky once.
Sadly I pulled mine off a desk by the cord with my foot and dented the top right corner bending under the power button slightly breaking it so had to replace the keyboard, top and bottom case. That’s fine, happy I fixed it myself but just an anecdote to the opposite. ;)
I'm happy to answer questions around the new product.
I literally just want a touchpad with buttons. These new 'clickpads' are the bane of my existence. They are so much slower, and certain workflows are impossible. I must use an external mouse now with modern laptops.
Why can no laptop manufacturer even make this an option?
The Touchpad Module is easy to replace, and the CAD and interface specs we've published on https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/Framework-Laptop-16 are likely detailed enough that anyone can try making one!
How much demand would there need to be for you to make one first-party?
How might we go about registering the quantity of that demand?
Aside: what if frame.work site had a place for popular vote for features? (With proper registration, etc.) E.g. Digital Ocean has this, and it seems helpful, they follow up on some of the most upvoted feature requests. It's sort of free market research.
Kickstarter style upfront payment may be more useful. You want touchpad with buttons; it would cost 300k to develop if enough people paid, the company would build it. If it is a niche, let open ecosystem take care of it.
Can only speak for myself, but for me the issue with traditional clickpads comes down to their mechanical diving board nature. Even the best ones are not nice to use due to the unavoidable variance in pressure and click feel across the pad that is exacerbated as the size of the pad increases and the mechanism wears over time.
The type that doesn’t move at all and simulates a click with haptics on the other hand I find just fine. MacBooks do this of course but there’s also a few x86 laptops equipped with pads like that.
So in my opinion, mechanical clickpads should disappear entirely and laptops should offer two options: a static haptic clickpad and traditional trackpad with buttons.
Honestly, I'm here half wondering why we need the click at all. One finger drag for move, quick one finger tap for left click, tap and half for click and drag, two finger tap, two finger drag for scroll covers all the common interactions.
Which isn't to say I don't use the click functionality at all. I will subconciously use it in some scenarios, but not in others, but if it were missing I would adapt very quickly, since I use the gesture alternatives so often, that I would automatically fall back to them.
I suppose I need the click for some obscure interactions like right click drag, but honestly except in games I've almost never seen that used. My surface laptop as currently configured literally wouldn't even allow some other rare ones like hold button and scroll (I'd need to turn on right side scroll-wheel for that) and I've never even noticed the absence of that ability until I tried it just now.
I’ve never missed having buttons on the macbook trackpad lol
How are they slower/impossible?
I've missed them every time I've been in the unfortunate position of dealing with someone else's macOS system. It's all a matter of what you're accustomed to.
They said the mac solution is slower than discrete buttons, I’m contesting that part specifically
I stand by what I said. It may not be slower for you.
Problem is none of the trackpad on PC are as good as the Apple trackpad
Hardware-wise, no, I've had plenty of PC trackpads that are better than Apple trackpads. But MacOS tends to have better built-in support for advanced gestures, which seem to be impossible on Windows and must be manually configured on Linux (but gives you enormous power once you do).
Apple's palm rejection is also top tier, though other systems have been getting better. My current Dell seems fine so far, but at my last company the Dell I had was almost unusable due to my cursor just teleporting around my document randomly if my hands got too close to the trackpad (which is where they have to be to type).
Not sure if it's a hardware (Dell) or software (Ubuntu) improvement, but thank god.
Even Apple's palm rejection is not good enough for me. I really hated the huge touchpad when I was using a Mac.
GNOME on Wayland has lots of useful gestures out of the box. It's part of the DE though, so lots of DEs don't have them.
Using Gnome (for whatever reason), I'm used to two finger scrolling and three finger swiping just working by default.
You could try putting a trackpad from a macbook into the framework. AFAIK the palm rejection is all in the firmware. The apple trackpad is USB. If you look at the code for Asahi Linux it could tell you more.
... it's a software problem afaik. The trackpad may be slightly better quality, but it's the drivers and the OS integration that make even some games playable without a mouse on Mac OS.
Don't think any one x86 laptop manufacturer can fix it.
I assume some gestures are simply not possible. Like click-to-drag and scroll simultaneously. Not every app handles gutter-hover-to-scroll in a usable way. On a mouse or a pad with buttons, you can keep the left click held down and scroll with the wheel or gesture. Uni-pads make this impossible.
You assume it wrong. You can click-to-drag and scroll simultaneously without issues on an Apple trackpad.
"Without issues" is a stretch. You need to use two hands or be skilled with one. Its trivial on a mouse or a pad with a discrete buttons.
But ok, what about just dragging a long distance where you would normally lift the mouse or finger? Is there some hidden gesture for this? Maybe once your initial drag finger hits the edge you need to use two more to do a move gesture? But I've seen that trigger scroll and/or pinch-to-zoom.
This reminded me of a feature in windows where if you were dragging something and reached the end of the touchpad, the cursor would continue on the same trajectory as long as you kept your finger at the edge of the touchpad. Then you could overshoot a little so you could bring your fingers back to the middle to regain maneuverability. I haven't missed it since I switched to linux but now that I'm thinking about it that was a very nice touch (no pun intended).
> what about just dragging a long distance where you would normally lift the mouse or finger?
This is why you set Trackpad speed to "fastest", and take advantage of the aggressive trackpad acceleration. When you move your finger quickly you'll easily reach the far side of the screen before your finger reaches the edge of the pad, and slow finger movements will still be precise
I'm probably missing some context, but on my Mac I'm using three fingers drag and I can lift fingers and (quickly) reposition them without breaking the drag.
I have the external apple trackpad (the most recent usb-c version at that) and this click-to-drag and then attempting to scroll does not work on Linux. Seems like this might have been a particular attention to detail on part of macOS devs.
As far as I know touchpad implementations just report finger locations and its up to software to interpret what a combination of these gestures means.
How does that work? You've got to tap the touchpad to trigger the initial click, don't you? For some reason, I really HATE tapping a touchpad (let that be an Apple or otherwise), it breaks my flow, I suppose? (like, you have to pause at the cursor's location, lift, tap twice to initiate a dragging event, then finally move on) whereas on the ThinkPad I daily drive I do all the cursor movement/scrolling with my right hand and the selection/clicking with my left thumb on the physical key that sits on the top of the touchpad sensitive area. That makes click&drag workflows super efficient, I find.
You click and drag with one finger and you are free to scroll with two other fingers during the drag. It is a multitouch gesture. (I don't use "tap to click" since I always found it cumbersome)
Just for me to understand, you navigate to that thing you want to drag, then press harder (without the double-tap+move in short sequence, do there's that), and that registers a drag event?
Could you do the "press harder" part with, e.g. a thumb in an other region of the touchpad instead of the finger that did the navigation?
Yes, you can. As long as one finger is "pressing hard-ish" a second finger can command the drag position, but if the finger that is pressing (you do not need to press very hard to trigger a click) is not the one that is also moving, then you will have issues when also scrolling with two other fingers, because at that point you have 4 fingers touching the trackpad, and by default you get anoter gesture registered (probably a zoom out to see all the windows in the workspace, called "expose"). If the fingers touching the trackpad are "only" three, you can drag and scroll, with the window that receives the scroll being the one under the pointer/item being dragged.
Thanks for clarifying, it seems analogous to having a physical mouse button, then (except that the haptic feedback is simulated, which strangely isn't off-putting to most, I've personally always felt the sensation uncanny)
Because the macbook trackpad is good.
> Why can no laptop manufacturer even make this an option?
Because it’s a variation of both the case and the internals that brings a higher failure rate, more dust ingress, more moving parts, and, most importantly, would rarely be chosen.
> They are so much slower,
They are objectively faster because you can click anywhere rather than moving a finger to a button or keeping one finger always on the button.
> They are objectively faster because you can click anywhere rather than moving a finger to a button or keeping one finger always on the button.
I have no problem with the current trackpad (and prefer it), but when I used a trackpad with dedicated buttons, i'd use my index finger to track and my thumb to click, so I wouldn't have to move my fingers around at all.
Regardless, why do we feel the need to argue with people's personal preferences? You don't have to agree with someone on this. It's fine. People can prefer other things.
Some people used to use a separate finger like the thumb to click, which is pretty fast.
This is my issue! All these years later, I am still not used to it, and I accidentally trigger multi-tap nonsense that I didn't intend because I am trying to click with my thumb.
My only point of reference is my MacBook Pro trackpad but I have no problem using my finger to move the cursor with my thumb resting on the trackpad and clicking. Not exactly the same because you lose some of the tactility of discrete buttons but it seems somewhat possible at least.
Yeah, most of the non-apple implementations of this don’t work with using a second finger to click in my experience. They expect you to click with the pointing finger.
Exactly. On ThinkPad touchpads with real hardware mouse buttons, I move on the touchpad with my pointer finger, and click with my middle finger.
I feel you. An option with a trackpoint would be a dream.
Thinkpads still have buttons. I don't ever use the trackpad, just the nub and buttons.
I have bad news for you:
https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpadp/th...
Someone should scoop up the niche market of anguished ThinkPad devotees, with a TrackPoint and a good, non-chiclet keyboard. Maybe Framework, leveraging its modular system. Maybe a Framework-compatible third-party.
I just watched Framework's other video talking about what they're working on[1], and they mentioned they're trying to get the trackpoint working, but they're having issues with it damaging the screen due to the low clearance.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RzUBqtgODM
Thanks. At 11m. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RzUBqtgODM&t=11m
Why have a trackpoint if there are no buttons? Dafuq?
I think you're supposed to touch the touchpad in particular ways with your thumb, while using your index finger on the TrackPoint stick.
I wonder what the set intersection is, between people who want TrackPoint sticks, and people who don't want TrackPoint buttons.
ThinkPad industrial design the last several years seems focused on looking thin and sleek -- like an Apple product, only in matte black, with a red accent in the middle of the keyboard -- but some of the human factors changes aren't intuitive to me.
Current models of the X1 have the option of having buttons or not. Which seems fine, but hopefully it isn't a sign that they're trying to drop the option of buttons.
it's the sign they are researching if there are enough demand for the nipple.
what a dumb thing to do. How do you even scroll with the nub?
Some Dell business models have them as well... I used to be a fan, but at this point I prefer the Mac touchpad experience. The closest I've felt are Razor and a few higher end Chromebooks (that I won' t buy). I'm hoping other mfgs get a lot closer to the Apple touchpad experience as patents start to expire in the next few years.
There's a few that are close, but still not close enough. Also, Mac slightly changed their default settings (regarding the physical click behavior), I never recall what it is but only that I change it back when starting out on a new machine.
Best keyboard/mouse implementation ever. I use a thinkpad keyboard on my desktop. A separate mouse feels so klunky by comparison.
I would be all in on the nub if mine didn't have such terrible drift. Trackpad with top buttons beats any other trackpad though.
You may be running into the auto calibration.
I use the touchpad together with the buttons, on my ThinkPad, and rarely use the stick.
What workflows are impossible with a trackpad but possible with a mouse?
With the trackpads that have built-in clicks in the pad itself, I've always found it really difficult to drag-and-drop stuff if it has to be pulled longer than a few pixels. Just moving and pressing against a surface seems to not be a super accurate movement in general.
Although it gets buggier with every release, macOS has a three-finger-drag operation, and there's a grace period when you lift your fingers if you need to adjust your position over the trackpad. It also lets you just fling one finger.
There is this for Linux but I've never tried it:
https://github.com/marsqing/libinput-three-finger-drag
Have you tried holding with one finger and aiming with the other?
I don't think I have, long time ago I had to use a laptop myself, just remember that being difficult last time I had to do it together with someone else. Probably depends on the software/hardware itself also, how well something like that would work.
Have you? The precision vs a touchpad with buttons isn't even close. It may well be a driver issue in Linux, all I know for sure is that it's an issue that does not exist with touchpads and that I have already spent far too much of my life fiddling with settings trying to get it to behave.
I never had problems with precision on HP high end models, Windows XP up to 2008 and several Ubuntu versions since then to 2022, then Debian.
I own an nc8430 and a ZBook 15 first generation. I use the lower row of three mouse buttons as left, middle and right click. Those touchpads don't move and don't bend. I disabled tap to click as buttons are much better and never move accidentally the pointer by design. Palm detection works very well, basically no issues. I use two finger scroll and pan. Several gestures work but I don't really like them. I disabled everything. I rather use keyboard shortcuts. I defined some of my own especially to navigate among virtual desktops.
There is still one ZBook Fury model with buttons, every other model lost them.
I have, yes! I do it a lot when dragging and dropping on Linux. Start the drag with one finger, and then bring a new finger in to move it. It's just like using a button.
I've not had to configure anything to make this work for a number of years now in Plasma. Though I've been running Linux on Macbooks for a long time, so maybe it's about specific hardware support.
While I prefer an external mouse, I can manage ECAD and some 3D modelling if I have buttons. It's great in a pinch. I'm getting nauseous even imagining it with a clickpad.
Can’t you map a keyboard button as a mouse click? I agree it’s not the best workaround but it should be a functional one, right?
My current plan is to retrofit buttons to my clickpad. Earlier this week I ordered a few different styles of touchpad buttons from AliExpress to test. I'll build a custom little USB HID device for it once I've picked my favourite one.
I don't think I can rely on laptop manufacturers to buck the clickpad trend any time soon, so I'll do it myself.
That would be incredibly cool. Please post a Show HN of your project. I'm afraid that I'll need to do something like that for my next laptop.
> These new 'clickpads' are the bane of my existence.
But only because they are all worse than Apple's version. What you really want isn't a touchpad with buttons, is a "clickpad" that doesn't suck. And as far as I know only Apple makes them.
ThinkPads still have buttons, or do you require buttons specifically under the touchpad?
What's the bottleneck in getting a Macbook like touchpad experience in a modern non-Apple laptop? Is it software? Some specific company that won't sell parts to anyone else? Patents?
I have tried several laptops, and nothing has even comes close in the last ten or so years.
I am hoping you might have some unique insight into this!
PS: Framework Laptop 16 looks great, will order one later this year and then get a GPU with more vram whenever available in future.
If you haven't seen it, this "Linux Touchpad like Macbook" project is related, the last/best effort I've seen in this direction. Here's a random update from a few years ago:
https://www.gitclear.com/blog/linux_touchpad_update_december...
Is this effort still underway?
I'm very happy to see Framework lead the USB power delivery pack by supporting 240W, 48V/5A charging on the Framework 16. As the first company to ship laptops using this spec, what problems or quirks, if any, have you seen from 48V charging in the field?
Since we designed both the power adapter and the product that is using it, it just works. There aren't a lot of other devices that support 240W USB-C for us to test against.
How thick must be the cable that delivers 48V @ 5A? I suppose not much thicker than normal, but still? Does this require a specialty cable to achieve that?
Increasing the voltage doesn't require a thicker cable, and 5A power starts with 100W USB-C PD. USB-C cables that support 5A aren't that thick, but they do need a special chip so that the devices know it's safe to send 5A.
I'm very impressed you managed to get nvidia to give you access to the 5070! I have one queetion though, is the 5070 limited to 100W because of the docking connector, or for cooling reasons?
Primarily for thermal reasons.
That's good to hear, I guess it's possible a thicker module could be made in the future with more cooling potential?
Ain't no way this cooling system is handling a 100W GPU comfortably.
When I clicked the "Already an owner" link, it sent me to the Romanian page when I'm in the US on a desktop device that has never been abroad:
https://frame.work/ro/en/marketplace?compatibility%5B%5D=lap...
The original link for this HN discussion goes to the Romanian page, so that's probably why.
This link may work better for you: https://frame.work/laptop16
Same thing happened to me. It's because the original link is to the Romanian site.
Good catch! Didn't realize he wasn't OP.
We don't submit our own announcements :)
Agreed that it would be great if the submission link was updated to be frame.work/laptop16 instead though.
@dsng Any possibility?
Same for me with the configure now button
In theory I'm the perfect audience for the Framework 16! The only thing holding me back is the lack of a 4K display. It's so good for dense text on the screen (e.g., code with lots of split buffers), I can't go back. Still waiting patiently for this to become an option.
This!
The only reason for me going with the Dell Premium 16 instead of framework, is that I need my 1920px screen width at 200% scaling.
Such a shame, the Framework is better in so many other ways.
Will we ever have ECC RAM as an option?
+1
And if not, could you elaborate?
It would also be a huge benefit to use a replaced mainboard as a homelab base WITH ECC support in the future.
Same goes for the Framework Desktop, which features Strix Halo without ECC support, whereas ECC IS possible with Ryzen AI MAX+ 395+ PRO (e.g. HP Z2 Mini G1a).
Can't speak for Framework, but AMD themselves doesn't necessarily support this configuration so it would be on Framework to develop/test/certify a compatibility list... they'd likely only support first party modules, if anything. At least for non-pro AMD CPUs.
Likely mostly down to resources/time as to the lack of official support.
Yes, we often hear it is "not supported." I'm here saying all my future non-mobile devices are required have ECC RAM or better. Take the money. ;-)
You knew the question was coming. ThinkPad style trackpoint keyboard!
We actually go into this in the video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RzUBqtgODM
Specifically 11:04: https://youtu.be/0RzUBqtgODM?t=664
> Something that we hear over and over again across our entire product lineup is that people want pointing sticks. You might know it as trackpoint from other brands. The little nubs that you can use as a mouse. Obviously, if you're a ThinkPad user, former ThinkPad user, that might be something that you're very familiar and comfortable with. And so, it is something that actually on all of our products several times over the last 5 years, we have tried to prototype and make work. The big challenge on this actually is just that there's very, very little space here. That the Zstack here is incredibly thin.
> And for a keyboard, it works because the keys are compliant. If there's force that's put on the lid, like let's say you're got your laptop in a backpack with a book or something, it's just being pressed on like that, the screen is going to touch the keys and the keys are going to give way because they're just on these uh on these scissor mechanisms and the screen will be okay and you may get a little smudge you have to wipe off. You've got like finger grease on there.
> A pointing stick though is not compliant. Not compliant in that way. So, you've got this like sharp point basically sticking out from the keyboard. And if there's pressure placed on the lid, that's going to go right onto that point on the tracking stick and end up damaging screen or have a high likelihood of damaging the screen.
> And so, we've just kept over and over, we've kept trying this and seeing if we could get a low enough profile pointing stick solution to make that work, not risk the screen at all. And so far, that doesn't exist. That is something that we keep going into the supply base to try to find.
> Hopefully we that is something we find in the future because of course with this input module system on framework laptop 16, it would end up being relatively straightforward for us to just make an input module a keyboard that you can swap in that's got that pointing stick unlike uh you know even our other laptops where you'd have to have an entirely new input cover to get that kind of functionality.
Most laptops have rubber bumpers around the screen to create a small airgap when the screen is closed, and even if you stack several laptops on top of each other, the bottom one's screen won't flex enough to touch the keyboard. Maybe with the more rigid lid, they can enable this?
Given the longevity goals with their modular designs, I'm guessing they're unlikely to make dramatic changes to their overall design in less than 5-7 years time from initial release. Such a screen change would likely require new hinge design as well as a thicker display casing, not to mention the risk of someone putting the trackpoint keyboard in a model that doesn't have the thicker display section.
I am thinking that something with a nub on a 2-axis slider as opposed to rocker switches could be an option, but that would potentially have drift issues. Not to mention the Framework keyboards themselves are probably mostly a COTS solution, where something like I'm thinking would require custom R&D an likely be limited release. If Framework, Dell and Lenovo could work together, they could probably come up with a good solution... though Lenovo likes the Fn button in the corner, where most others prefer Ctrl then Fn.
I used to like those but they started giving me rsi
Yeah, nowadays the trackpoint is just a bad pointing device. As laptops get slimmer, trackpoints get less precise and less usable. And they hurt our wrists.
We just have to let go. A haptic trackpad is miles better now.
Hah, I'm curious if this is legally possible. I've never seen that on any non-ThinkPad laptop.
A TrackPoint-like "pointy stick" has been on some other major brands:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointing_stick#Naming_and_bran...
I have multiple Dell laptops that have a mouse nub in the middle of the keyboard
I've used it on a Dell laptop too, but it was far inferior to the Trackpoint. I think IBM/Lenovo had a patent on the specific technology but it might be expired now.
The track point dates to the 1990's at least so at least the main patents have expired. I have no clue about advances they might have made
I recall Dell had laptops in the past at some point that had blue trackpoint-like nubs
And they were complete trash in comparison to the ones on ThinkPads imo.
I don't think more modern ThinkPads are much better... they have a shorter keyboard depth than the earlier models and the feel overall is significantly reduced... I understand as most people don't generally want a "thick" notebook.
I agree, they used to be a lot better.
The beefier business line models are still decent though.
I used a toshiba that only had the nub and no trackpad previously.
Many dells and HPs come with track points
the HHKB studio has a trackpoint as well
Awesome job on following through with the upgradability! I love the nvidia support!
Are you coming out with another coolermaster case for the 16 mainboard?
I want to make a custom dock with fans to force more cooling over the radiators. Could it be possible to "unlock" the 100W TDP of the 5070 in firmware or are there other hardware limitations like the interconnect?
Was adding the USB C power input on the GPU necessary to get full power? I see in the specs on github that VADP_GPU can take 100W into the mainboard and VSYS_GPU can supply 240W to the GPU. Are there any tradeoffs powering the system from the back ports vs the GPU?
Was the previous version of the AMD GPU not sending the display signal directly to the panel via the edp mux but instead via the igpu? If not is that something you can update in firmware? Can you publish how this was done so someone can make an oculink expansion board with displayport input?
Thanks to everyone at Framework for making such awesome hackable products!
Why no full-height arrow keys and Esc/function key row? There would be enough space.
Any hope for a 75 keyboard? With home/end/pageup/pagedown on the side?
We're developing key modules that enable the community and 3rd party keyboard developers to create alternate key layouts.
I would love more keyboard options! If I could have a laptop with a keyboard more like a standard tenkeyless, I would be over the moon. In the meantime, I'll have to see about hacking the standard keyboard somehow, although there's no fixing those arrow keys.
Wouldn't it be possible to have a side add-on similar to the numeric keypad but the width of the spacer or LED matrix to accomplish this? Maybe a revamped keypad that has home, end, page up, page down, and then a bunch of assignable macro keys would work well.
Yep, definitely possible!
I have an old Framework 16. How do I know which of the new parts I can upgrade? I imagine I can't upgrade my chassis (or can I?)
You can upgrade to any one of the new parts. In the Framework Marketplace, you can set compatibility filters to see the new parts (some of which are on waitlist because we'll be shipping them later this year): https://frame.work/marketplace?compatibility%5B%5D=laptop_16
Apparently the AMD RZ717 is a rebranded Mediatek MT7925. It's strange that the prose uses the AMD name, but the photo uses Mediatek's.
ETA on launching in India?
Came here to ask exactly this.
What all does your Linux support entail? Do you offer support for both Linux abd Windows models?
Is the firmware identical for the models that ship with Windows and those that ship with Linux?
How well does Linux work out of the box? What kind of small glitches can a Linux user expect?
We publish our recommended and officially supported Linux distros here: https://frame.work/laptop16?tab=linux
For the new generation, we'll list those as we get closer to shipments.
Granted:
- Bazzite takes community contributions; whereas, SteamOS is packaged and distributed by Valve, and
- Bazzite is based on Fedora, so the work to support Fedora should bubble over to Bazzite.
I'm curious though, is there a big difference in functionality for SteamOS vs Bazzite. Are there things that work in Bazzite that wouldn't in pure SteamOS?
I'm guessing/hoping Debian 13 now meets the requirements and can be added?
> Is the firmware identical for the models that ship with Windows and those that ship with Linux?
Yes. The firmware upgrade processes can differ, but there's no difference in firmware, and you can buy a Framework kit with no OS provided.
Would love to hear ur take on the impact of tariffs and how u folks have navigated that.
Would u consider setting up an assembly plant outside the US to sell to to customers internationally? I’m in Australia.
We manufacture our systems and many of our modules in Taiwan, and have had less tariff impact than other electronics companies as a result. Currently, laptops are also exempt from some tariffs.
Any possibility of a new Linux keyboard? Else, are the existing Linux keyboard modules compatible with the updated shell?
The new keyboard artwork across all languages is Linux by default, meaning no Windows logo on the super key.
I understand there's two versions of requirements for the NVidia 50 series - the higher end 5070Ti and up, and the lower end 5070 and down. What's the chance of releasing a 5070Ti/5080 version?
Not specifically about the new laptop but will you guys ever do a 15 inch non-gaming laptop that looks similar to a macbook? I really want to buy one of your products but 13 inch is a bit too small for me while the Laptop 16 is a bit too bulky.
Yes, I am another who wished for a bigger 13.
Your team might want to know that the website can crash on firefox mobile.
It even crashes firefox itself, and the android UI.
Unfortunately I am unwilling to give further details except that it is firefox on a very reasonable Android device.
I see it is still not possible to order from Japan.
Is there an ongoing effort on solving this?
Did you consider QMK / VIA or other open source variants as keyboard firmware?
The keyboard firmware actually already is QMK-based! https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/qmk_firmware
Awesome thanks for the link!
Will my Valve Index work with it? I was sad to find it doesn't work with my Intel Core Framework 13, even on Windows.
I wish I could buy it, but I'm in the unfortunate situation of being in Norway, instead of almost any other European country. Will you ever ship here? ;-(
I (pre) ordered one. I'd be so excited if the haptic super-wide touchpad made an appearance, even if in some limited form.
Please fix the performance of your website. Scrolling down is too slow and crashes my browser sometimes.
Is it possible to put the trackpad "above" (as in closer to the display) the keyboard? This is to me the obvious correct place to put it, but I'm in the clear minority.
any chances we'll see an arm/qualcomm motherboard one day?
Not a question about the Framework Laptop 16 specifically, but why are the upgrade kits[0] for the Laptop 13 still marked as "register interest" on the Framework Marketplace? The Ryzen AI 300 motherboards, RAM, and Wi-fi cards are all available separately already.
[0] https://frame.work/products/framework-laptop-13-mainboard-ki...
Ah, great question. I'll flag this to the team.
This listing is now live. Thanks for flagging it.
Anyone using Framework for a daily driver that can compare to an M-series Macbook? Specifically, battery life on your OS. Does anything compare to a MBP these days?
From a value proposition, it seems good. Our group definitely goes through keyboards and mainboards from spilled tea at least annually it seems, but AppleCare is just a no-brainer, and away we go.
I still drive on my original M1 at home without complaint, and use my M3 at work. Anyone have the early Frameworks still in daily use? How are they?
Nothing touches Apple Silicon on battery, including laptops with similar performance per watt. And there's no scenario where, on pretty much any individual performance spec, a FW is going to compete with a Mac.
When I first got a 12th-gen Intel mainboard FW13 with the original 55Wh battery running stock Ubuntu, the battery life at best was <6 hours. Since moving to the 7040 AMD mainboard, the upgraded 61Wh battery, and Fedora, I've not run out of battery in an 8-hour workday. I've also got an Ultra 7 155H mainboard with the same work performance with respect to battery life.
I can't speak to the FW16s with 85Wh batteries, but I also don't consider them as being designed with either work or battery life as priorities.
Framework doesn't provide official optimized Linux power management profiles. Community profiles make up some of the difference, but if untuned battery life out of the box is a priority to you, and if you also don't care about the process of replacing its battery, just get a Mac. If Linux is an additional priority to you, get an old M1 or M2 MBP with a low battery cycle count and run Fedora Asahi Remix on it.
> Framework doesn't provide official optimized Linux power management profiles
Is this difficult? Would it not behoove them to do this and get better work-hour scores? I would imagine it would be part of making sure the screen can dim, touch pad works, etc in terms of "building a quality product".
I dont mean this in a snarky way, I just figure if you're making it and know the products in it, couldn't you optimise a power profile for it? Or perhaps they "know" it has an AMD/Intel processor in it, but that isn't enough to really do a worthwhile job and it's more on AMD/Intel to do it?
I have an M2 Max MBP for work and a Framework 16 for home.
Build quality of the MBP is better. The machine feels more solid. The battery life is better, although to be fair, I run Linux on the Framework so the hardware itself isn't the only difference.
The Framework 16 wins hands-down when it comes to ports, one of my biggest pain points with any Apple laptop in the last 10 years. It has six of them and I can mostly arrange them according to my needs. In the rare cases where I plug it into an external monitor, I swap out one of the USB ports for an HDMI port. If I'm using more older devices than normal, I replace the USB-C ports with USB-A ports. I say "mostly" here because not all ports work in all positions.
The repairability and openness of the Framework laptop were the big draws for me and it delivered well on both counts. I'm happy with it.
I don't think the build quality is very far off in any sort of terms that matter. Sure, Apple gives you a hollowed out block of aluminum and that's really nice and fancy but that doesn't really matter in any tangible way except feeling nice.
Framework has pretty minimal keyboard deck flex and other measures of build quality that actually impact usage. I think it fares better than a good chunk of PC competitors like the ThinkPad T14.
The only thing Framework really needs is a haptic trackpad and it'd be pretty much there in terms of the build feel. I also like how Apple puts the air intakes on the side rather than the bottom where they're frequently blocked by a lap or a soft surface.
I have an early batch framework (i7 11th gen) still in use (I have no other laptops or a PC). A few benefits I've gotten out of it: - I spilled almost a liter of milk on my keyboard, really gummed it up. Keys stopped working. Got it replaced for pretty cheap. - Linux just works. No weird driver issues But... - Battery life is horrible. I pretty much just have it plugged in whenever I can. When off battery, I use the cpupower frequency set command to limit to 1000MHz which is fast enough for vim anyways. Compiling stuff becomes a bit slower but since I write Go, it's not too bad. - Fan noise is loud - My specific laptop had a weird sensor bug where it would sometimes randomly get throttled to 200 MHz. Framework didn't really help or replace it.
Honestly it'll probably last me another 5 years before I need to switch out the mainboard. I don't do anything intense like gaming.
FWIW, I had a Dell laptop that I put Ubuntu 22.04 on when I got it, and the battery life was atrocious; closing everything except Firefox, closing every FF tab but one, stopping background services, setting the screen to half brightness, I got about an hour and a half of battery life.
Went and installed Slimbook Battery and left it at default settings and got several more hours of battery life without having to close everything. Had to reinstall later and just installed TLP and left it at default settings and still getting far better battery life.
Not sure why Ubuntu is so cripplingly bad out of the box when it's so easy to fix, but if you haven't tried that it might be worth checking out.
Thanks for the tip, I'll have to try Slimbook battery and TLP out.
I have a first generation framework 13, I upgraded the mainboard last year to the 12th gen intel i7-1280P mainboard. My original mainboard was from the first batch with the bios battery issues but still works, though I haven't had success getting it to run standalone in the coolmaster case yet.
I'm happy with my framework 13 four years later. I might switch to the stiffer hinge and/or a matte screen in the future. Might try one of the AMD mainboards in a few generations when they're cheaper and put my current mainboard into another case...
Edit: FWIW I bought a macbook air M1 a year after getting the framework 13, and ended up selling it. The battery life on the macbook air was significantly better, but I can still spend an entire workday in the park with the glossy framework 13 without needing to recharge so the extra battery life from the M1 didn't really have a ton of value for me.
> the first batch with the bios battery issues
This was some seriously infuriating bullshit. I remember them blaming it on intel on the forums, even though no other laptop had the issue.
In my case, replacing the battery with a random aliexpress ine fixed the issue, and they could have just said so.
Really made me lose trust in the company.
I regularly use an M4 and a Framework 13. There's really no comparison in terms of battery life and performance (even compared to the M1 which I also used extensively). Having said that, Framework 13 is a good machine for Linux. My only complaints is battery life could be better, and I don't like the trackpad.
I’ve had an AMD Framework 13 since around its launch. I still love it and much prefer the Linux experience and its customizability over my M2 MacBook Pro. I also love that all the people who worked on it have their names literally on my mainboard—you’re supporting a small business trying to make the industry better, instead of a megacorp doing everything in their power to prevent easy repairs.
The battery life is good enough that I never worry/think about it. The keyboard is fantastic. The trackpad is meh, not terrible but not MacBook great—use a mouse or vim :)
I have a Framework 13 (11th gen i7 + Debian + KDE) and the battery lasts just as long as my M3 Apple laptop. Maybe I get an extra hour out of the Apple one. Nothing major and there’s no stupid nub at the top of the screen.
Some interesting discussion around this topic yesterday here - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45019483
Unfortunately I do not think anyone comes remotely close to Apple in the battery life department. I have an M2 Air that I really adore, but after driving Linux on my workstation for the last 2 years I want to explore Linux laptops. All my research has concluded that if you care about longevity, a Mac is the only way to go.
I have a ThinkPad T14 Gen 5 AMD (besides MacBook Pro M1 Pro) and with some powertop tweaks it lasts about 6-7 hours. Not as great as the M1 Pro, but generally good enough to work a few hours without power. The nice thing is that I loaded it up with 64GiB RAM and a 2TB SSD for cheap (almost infinite NixOS generations, yay!).
The MacBook has a better trackpad, stronger case, better battery life, far better display. But the ThinkPad has NixOS running perfectly (I had Asahi on my Mac Studio, but with the lack of Thunderbolt and not so great battery life I don't want to run it on a MacBook). At any rate, the Mac is going to be better, but I have to sacrifice a bit for tech-feudalism-free computing (Mac is slowly becoming more and more closed).
The Lemur Pro gets up to 14: https://system76.com/laptops/lemp13/configure
I like the framework and I like Fedora KDE. However the battery life, thanks to AMD and Intel, is horrible in comparison.
I can easily do 10-12 hours on my M4 MBP. My framework AMD 13 can do maybe half that if I have it on power save mode and I don't do anything heavy.
The keyboard is good, speakers are meh, track pad is not as good as Mac. Form factor is good.
The idea of Framework laptops sounds great! But I’m wondering: has anyone done an economic analysis comparing buying a Framework laptop a few years ago and gradually upgrading it, versus buying a similar popular brand laptop and just upgrading by getting a new model? I’m not trolling, I’m genuinely considering Framework as my next laptop.
I have a 1st gen Framework 13, Intel 11th gen CPU, running Ubuntu 24. It had a faulty design around the BIOS battery on the motherboard that I had to fix, and do some soldering on[1]. It's remarkable because they didn't say "Send the laptop in and we'll fix the design defect" they said, "First take a photo of the inside of the laptop to verify the serial number, then place an order, then do the repair yourself." This left a very bad taste in my mouth.
Additionally, and non-trivially, the laptop's battery life is not good, and it drains very quickly on suspend. I have taken to leaving it plugged in when not in use. This may be a Linux issue, but still.
I agree with you: the idea is a good one, but my experience with the company has been not good.
1 - https://guides.frame.work/Guide/RTC+Battery+Substitution+on+...
> then do the repair yourself
This is awesome though, and exactly the sort of thing one buys a Framework for.
> the laptop's battery life is not good
Mine is great, I share a single USB-C cord among all my laptops (of which I have despairingly too many) and I often use my Framework all day while forgetting it's not plugged in. (Fedora, if the OS matters.)
>This is awesome though
No, it's not awesome. Upgrading ram and disk or replacing a motherboard, screen or battery is great. Repairing a badly designed motherboard with a soldering iron is not great. In fact, it's bad. I think there's a good argument that it violates (warranty) law. If a car company sells to you based on "right to repair" and then it turns out there was a design defect in the engine, is it "awesome" if they tell you you need to pull the engine and rebuild it?
Glad your battery life is good. I notice you didn't mention it losing power when suspended. Curious.
> I notice you didn't mention it losing power when suspended. Curious.
Are you using a kernel > 6.8? It got (much) better.
Interesting. I'm not normally in the habit of upgrading the kernel independently of the distribution, but it's worth trying. Thanks for the tip.
On earlier kernels, `acpi_osi="!Windows 2020"` was often recommended. Though I'm note sure what it does.
`nvme.noacpi=1` should be on, too, for all kernels.
(all derived from the nixos-hardware repo; I use that)
Thanks. I upgraded the kernel (had to turn off secure boot to do it), and set the nvme kernel option, too. So far no unwanted side-effects, but it's too soon to say if it fixed the problem.
I'm going to assume soldering on the main board is far outside the ability of most users. They're not through hole, big green boards like I learned on.
It is certainly awesome for those that can, of course!
It does not make sense to praise a company for selling defective products because some of the customers have the ability to repair the defect.
It's a massive step up from the status quo of companies selling defective products without customers having the ability to repair the defect.
Well then, you live in the best of worlds because every laptop is repairable even at the chip level or individual capacitor/resistor/connector level. All you need is a workshop, a multimeter, oscilloscope, probes, a hot air gun, a microscope, a variety of soldering tools, a variety of solder, solder mask, access to schematics and donor boards, and a lifetime of experience. Here's a guy who repairs Dell laptops all day every day: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDsP1--ttQc
That's all a massive step beyond "order a free part from the vendor with instructions on how to solder it on yourself".
> Additionally, and non-trivially, the laptop's battery life is not good, and it drains very quickly on suspend
Drain on suspend in particular has largely been resolved on newer mainboards, firmware, and kernel updates, though I don't have an 11th-gen Intel and haven't run Ubuntu for a long time.
Kernel updates fixed this on my 12th-gen, firmware updates fixed it on my 7040, and my Ultra 7 155H never experienced this issue.
Which kernel upgrade? I have a dell precision with 12th Generation Intel i5-12500H, and it can't suspend properly. The suspend is even flaky and fails to suspend at all half the time. I run fedora with a very new kernel. It has a Nvidia GPU though. But then again - it is "Ubuntu certified"...
I'd happily accept a replacement motherboard. They aren't offering that though ,but I'd be impressed if they did.
You won't believe it but I can pull 30 hours at min brightness sitting at the windows desktop on the 11th gen 13 framework (Running Win10LTSC).
Another consideration that has really come true for me is repairs - I accidentally spilled a bottle of gin over my framework and was able to only replace the main board for under half the cost of a brand new machine.
I'm very happy with my framework!
We can admire Framework's commitment to repairable hardware without pretending that it's unique. I spilled my drink of choice on my Alienware X17 and was able to replace the keyboard for $100 from AliExpress armed only with a Phillips head.
Replacing the mainboard is not quite the same thing as replacing the keyboard.
Is it an OEM part with the same quality as the original? Will AliExpress carry the part 5 years from now? (Framework systems are backward/forward compatible).
If you spilled your drink on your Framework keyboard from your 13" system that you bought 5 years ago and you bought a replacement from Framework, you'd be getting a better and improved model of the keyboard. Same deal with issues like cracked screens, webcams, and batteries - since the original Framework came out, the company has upgraded those parts, and makes them available to people who bought the original system.
AliExpress 3rd party battery replacements are basically never as good as OEM.
That level of support is is unique and you are trying to downplay it as something that other OEM offers, and I think that's a little bit facetious.
That's close to double the repair cost. No warranty, since Aliexpress. Probably no options for non-US English keyboard replacements. And I would be very surprised if that keyboard replacement was still available for purchase on Aliexpress in 5 years.
The bottle of gin is to drown the sorrows of not having a TrackPoint keyboard?
I was really close to getting a Framework earlier this year, but ultimately landed on a Thinkpad T14 Gen 5 because at the time, the price gap was significant (the Thinkpad was $250 cheaper) and the T14 still had a better CPU. Not to mention the T14 has expandable RAM, replaceable battery, screen, and keyboard, and is acceptably thin and light.
In the end, I think the Framework is worth it if you have a desire to support the company and the mission, but I think most people should go refurbished if they only care about value.
It depends what you are looking for. If you care about overall price you don't buy brand new.
I want something that can run an Linux, IDE and some tooling that I can stick in my bag and not care too much about it so I buy refurbs. Often there isn't much wrong with them other than minor cosmetic damage.
I always go for Dell Business or Lenovo Thinkpads. There are plenty of spare parts available online. They typically work well with Linux & BSDs. I can get a laptop that was a flag ship a few years ago for like 1/3rd the price and often it is more than good enough.
Similarly spec'd laptops can be found for ~1/2 the price. I don't think a deep economic analysis is necessary...
The problem your overlooking is not just the upgrade vs new cost, but also the parts issue.
Buying a brand new Framework tend to be more expensive then a ~ Chinese Laptop.
*New vs Upgrade*
In general, you can sell a second hand laptop at around 50% of the original price, about 2 years down the line (assuming you did not damage it).
So a new upgrade will be 50% cheaper. For that you tend to get (depending on the generation jump), more storage, more memory, potential better screen, faster CPU.
While a Framework upgrade may mean you gain a new Motherbord+CPU for the price of that equivalent laptop. But here you run into another economic issue. Sure, you can transplant your 2100mhz memory but what if 2660 is the standard. So you CPU upgrade is going to get throttled.
*Changes*
What if memory changed with a inner generational. So now that memory you had before is useless. You can recover some value, but are still forced to buy the generation memory.
That wifi card, 5e ... great, but now your getting maybe 6 standard in a new laptop.
Also do not forget, your laptop will have more wear and tear vs a new device. Keyboard may become a issue. Your oled screen may have reduced coloring after 1 or 2 generation of usage (oleds suffer from high screen brightness, and laptop are more often in locations like outdoors that run at 100% brightness).
*Compatibility*
What about compatibility? Maybe you had a Intel based Framework laptop, with a intel wifi card. The problem is, some intel wifi cards need specific intel instructions onboard the CPU. So now you upgraded to AMD but your wifi card becomes useless.
Yes, a new laptop is rolling the dice regarding defects or other issues. But so is upgrading a framework. The problem is, your getting all the not so fun parts of a desktop's upgradability, without the cost saving potential of a desktop.
*Resell issue*
Selling your framework memory, wifi card etc will not be a big issue. But the moment you want to sell a older part, now what? Great that you upgraded from 1080p screen to 4k by yourself, but who is going to buy your 1080p screen? Your at best looking at a small market of framework owners, and a even smaller market of framework owners that need a new screen (maybe to replace a damaged one).
What about the bezel changes? What about the keyboard? What is your buyers market. Sure, maybe you can sell your old MB/CPU but even that is a VERY specialized market of people, who maybe need one to repair their framework, or want a custom nas (cheaper to just buy a mini-pc from the dozens of Chinese brands) or the few people who run a very old framework mb, and upgrade (what about their selling 2+ generation old MB/CPU combo).
*Buyers*
Framework really is for people who do not like to change laptops / get used to new ones, and who have no issue taking in the extra costs of those upgrade potential. But then again, i see people running macbooks M1's still (darm good laptops), for 5 years. They did not need the upgrade path.
It really depends on you, what you really value. But from a economic point of view, your not going to be cheaper in the long run with a framework, and that is not the selling point also.
Framework is also for linux users who want some assurance everything will work.
+1 on this... I keep saying, I wish that System76 could work with Framework to sell a model with PopOS preinstalled and supported by System76. I'd pay an extra $200 just for that, not that everyone would be willing to pay extra since Framework is already at a bit of a price premium. Most other Linux vendors (Tuxedo, Slimbook, etc) seem to be mostly EU centered and based, which is a bit of a negative if you're in the US.
I don't think Linux users would pay for it. It would pretty much be a loss (support isna form of insurance--you have a pool of covered users, and they need not in aggregate cost more than the company takes in). And System76 needs to also change the firmware to support Linux (is why buying the Clevo model they co-designed and throwing Linux on it won't work like you hope.)
Plus, I suspect System76 would want to have a lot of control over the design that they would end up on the hook for.
If you want PopOS and/or System76 support, they're right there. You can just buy and use their kit.
Maybe Framework could be another System76 ODM, though.
It does feel like a collab would make sense. They are going after fairly similar markets.
I think a large economic value also comes from repair-ability. If nothing ever breaks (until battery dies), I don't think anyone can compete with entry level MacBook in terms of experience/price.
> I don't think anyone can compete with entry level MacBook in terms of experience/price.
It depends on what you want.
About a week ago I got a new 15" laptop with a Ryzen 7 6800H (8 cores / 16 threads) | Radeon 680M | 32 GB of RAM | 1 TB SSD | 1080p IPS panel for $570 USD. That 680m is an integrated GPU that can use up to 8 GB of your system RAM for its VRAM.
I put Arch Linux on it and it's quite nice. Things are very snappy.
A Macbook Air is almost 4x the price with the same memory / storage or 2x if you're ok with 16 GB of memory and a 256 GB SSD. No doubt the Air is going to be lighter, have better battery life and be quieter but this other one isn't too bad. Sure it has fans and sure it weighs 4.5 pounds but it's not a deal breaker.
Apple is impossible to compare against in the sense that MacOS is a giant question-mark, with an unknown positive or negative value, depending on the user.
I guess we could do an apples-to-apples comparison (Linux or Windows performance on Macs that have it). Not sure how that works out, though.
I’ve had to get a couple MacBook Airs and MacBook Pros repaired by Apple when we took over an office that didn’t have IT staff.
It was surprisingly not as expensive as I thought it would be. There are also 3rd party options that will swap in parts for you or try to repair things.
It’s not as satisfying as ordering the parts and changing it out yourself but at this point I don’t prioritize repairs or failures in my buying decisions any more.
> External adapters are a thing of the past.
This is both hilarious and so perfect, because they're still external adaptors, they're frickin' USB-C dongles! They just fit them within the bounding box of the laptop.
Such a simple, effective solution (if you're willing to sacrifice some volume)
> they're still external ... They just fit them within the bounding box of the laptop
Erm, yeah, external means outside of something. This is a perfectly valid thing to say. Are PCIe cards "external" because you can plug them in? Obviously not.
It looks like the Ethernet one actually sticks out of the case so that's even more external - I think I would actually prefer a standard USB-C adapter in this case.
As an owner of the original FW16, I'm really happy with this update! I hope that there's some news on an external case for old mainboards.
We're currently working on a 3d-printable solution for the Framework Laptop 16 Mainboard.
yea, i am wondering about that too
Blog post: https://frame.work/blog/introducing-the-new-framework-laptop...
I built my ideal laptop... 4TB storage, the 5070, all the mods I would need, and it comes to $4000+ :(
My ASUS ROG Strix cost me $1500 back when the 3080's were new and has a 3080. Have prices risen that much?
I built a ROG Zephyrus equivalent: The ROG is $2,100 and the Framework is $2700.
So its more expensive but not $1500 vs $4000 expensive.
This was comparing the lowest end model ROG because that's the only one with a 5070. It was also 100% like-for-like, such as paying for windows, something I personally wouldn't do with a framework.
Buy the core parts from Framework and then buy & install things like NVMe and memory yourself. Will save a considerable amount.
Aye that's not a bad plan, to be honest I think my Strix still has a few years left at least but we'll see.
Judging by my experience with the Framework 13, you gain basically nothing going pre-built. The DIY work required is laughable. It's so, so easy and simple. If you don't account for nervousness, you could do it in 5 min, no problem. Comes with a very nice little screw driver, which is all you need.
Storage is expensive at framework. I bought the storage for my 16 elsewhere and it was substantially cheaper.
I had Asus ROG zephyrus M16 2021 and it's a hot piece of shit considering €2500 sticker price.
IMO Framework is a gimmick company that capitalizes on techie hipsters who buy into their story. The repairability case is very weak - in 10+ years of owning laptops I never had one fail, they are reliable enough that outside the warranty period if they die I am fine with taking the L and buying a new one (and mine spent a bunch of time in a backpack on my motorcycle in pouring rain, getting smushed on bus rides, used in cafes). The only thing that dies eventually is battery capacity and it starts showing signs of use/wear.
Modding and upgrade story is more compiling and worth paying a premium in special cases, but their upgrade story is weak. They lag behind HW releases and they don't even support the strongest CPU chip available on the market right now (Ryzen 395), they just sell it as that silly desktop brick. Meanwhile Asus has it in a 14 inch tablet form factor at a better price.
Why no ryzen ai max+ 395?
It feels like this mobile chip has been hijacked for a bunch of mini desktops, a single ASUS tablet that you can’t use with a keyboard without a desk to stand it on, and a single HP laptop that (while actually the only real mobile computer) is priced insanely for even the low RAM variants.
What a waste.
> The Framework Laptop 16 is designed with Linux in mind
Weird phrasing. The #1 rule if you're getting hardware to run Linux is: don't by Nvidia.
You can also get an AMD RX 7700S module instead
Not to mention, the integrated GPU is decent for casual use as well. Though you probably want to run a distro that will get a 6.16+ kernel update sooner than later for improved support of the "AI" models.
Pricing is... steep. Almost $2500 before tax for a very mid-tier gaming laptop.
It’s not really a gaming laptop, it’s more like a workstation that happens to be decent at gaming.
They’ve even mentioned in another video I watched that their fastest growing segment is business customers.
Their systems have unique features and value proposition nobody else is offering so they can charge more than competitors.
Let’s also not forget that the gaming market does have a high end segment that is definitely in this price range. This costs less than a Razer Blade 16 with the same GPU. If you’re trying to compare a Framework to throwaway MSI trash with horrendous longevity that just isn’t an equivalent product.
Might as well be saying “why buy a Toyota RAV4 when a Dodge Hornet is cheaper?” Well, one of those is priced higher because it’s a better long-term buy.
> Their systems have unique features and value proposition nobody else is offering so they can charge more than competitors.
But that also puts them out of the market of users where those unique features would be a selling point but are not required which is probably much bigger.
Yes, that’s the idea. Dell and HP cover the much bigger market. If you don’t need unique features there are other choices on the market. Framework is filling a previously unmet demand.
It could certainly be called a niche but they have been doing quite well for themselves in that space.
I am wondering about the RAM extensibility. The 7040 can be extended to have 128GB RAM (for example Crucial CT2K64G56C46S5) - anyone knows if the same still works?
We're testing those specific modules now. Initial testing shows that it should work the same as on 7040 Series, but we will complete validation before updating our Knowledge Base article on memory compatibility.
My experience with all these high-powered laptops is that they overheat and throttle when under load. I prefer the low-wattage CPUs and intel graphics: they don't overheat and the battery lasts much longer.
From the announcement email:
> We were the first laptop maker to ship a USB-C 180W adapter with the original Framework Laptop 16, and somehow nearly two years later, we may be the first to ship with 240W too!
That is truly wild. When I first discovered that heavy gaming drains the battery in the FW16 I went out to search for a more powerful USB-C power supply. No results. Best I could find was a paltry 140W one. Definitely upgrading this part.
That is really cool. One thing I have to ask though. Does the Framework have the same problem as other bottom intake fans that collect dust inside the fan?
It really depends on your usage environment, but one good thing is that its probably easier to clean the fans on a Framework Laptop than on most other laptops!
Still hoping for a fanless model one day.
They do sell risc development boards- i hope that either that becomes mature or a more efficient arm soc becomes an option.
hopefully such Arm option would have Arm SystemReady Compliance so you could just install whatever distro you want on it
The fans on my 16 are really easy to get to for cleaning.
Do they sound like jet engines? Nobody ever talks about noise
Fantastic update, it has everything that made the first version a dealbreaker for me - it was just too weak. I feared Framework will position its 2in1 as a "student laptop", glad to hear they expand on it.
We sorely need more competition in the 2in1 segment, there aren't many good options. Either gaming laptops (no long commitment, bad build quality) or Lenovo Yogas (bad value, limited/weak hw options).
I think you may be confused. This is an upgrade for the Framework 16, not the Framework 12, which is the 2-in-1.
Oh true :( The above comment then is a wish for a similar upgrade.
Given the 2.1kg after detaching the graphic module and the seemingly large battery capacity for on the go sessions, it's so close to a laptop that fits all my use cases.
Although from what I've read 8GB of VRAM seems insufficiently near-future proof, so I've always been eyeing 5070ti+ laptops. I wonder if there's any technical blocker that prevents offering 5070ti or the amd equivalent.
I'm really pleased with my Framework 16. The peace of mind knowing I _can_ replace individual parts is fantastic.
I just bought a Framework 16 7840HS last week and now it's 7% off. Guess I should have waited a little longer. Glad to see they're committing to upgrades for it, though, so I guess it was still a good investment
> I just bought a 7840HS and now it's 7% off
Write them and ask if you could get the rebate. The times I've had this happened to me when shopping from small/medium-sized businesses they've been nice enough to either give me a refund for the difference, or at least a coupon for future purchases.
Correct. Please reach out to our support team and they can help out on this.
You guys are great! Can't wait to get my Desktop, batch 12 :D
I hope they roll their own oculink adapter for the M2 slot. I know you can diy it with a 3D printer but it would be huge to easily BYO this.
Very nice. Glad Framework finally updated the CPU/APU on this because I really want the Ryzen AI APU in a 16 inch form factor (I don't care about dedicated GPUs though).
My understanding was that there's not really anything you can do with the NPU yet?
Copilot supports it. And on windows you can try AMD tools like https://github.com/lemonade-sdk/lemonade to run arbitrary LLMs. AMD is actively developing support for the NPU.
Drivers for it are in Linux 6.14.
That doesn't matter much for most people though. The actual benefit is that the integrated GPU is very beefy.
I love the modularity, but unlike the 13" version this one is just too bulky. For this reason I am eyeing up Thinkpad P1, even though it is only available with an Intel CPU.
Do you mean it's bulky even compared to other 16" laptops, or just that a 16" laptop is too bulky for you? Because I know they're not for everyone but I like larger laptops (am currently on 15.6") and was pleasantly surprised when they came out with the 16" as I thought the trend was generally towards smaller laptops.
Thinkpad P1 is 1.8kg whereas Framework 16" is 2.4kg - substantial difference. And P1 even looks less bulkier overall. This is quite unfortunate, because I would rather buy Framework than Lenovo.
I use a P1 and I don't think I'd buy another. The fan runs a lot. When I carry it in my backpack, I have to remember to do a complete shutdown otherwise I'll pull a very hot machine with a mostly depleted battery out of my backpack when I get to my destination.
Outside of Apple, there doesn't seem to be many good fanless laptops. I'd love to see Framework come up with something.
The launch video for this new Framework Laptop 16 mentioned firmware improvements to disable wake on keypress when the laptop's screen is closed, specifically to prevent the type of situation you mentioned. I've personally experienced similar issues with an XPS 15 in the past; I'm hopeful this type of change will help.
Thanks for the info! My current laptop is T14s Gen 3 which I find perfect, but the screen size is a big insufficient for programming. I will be looking for a 16" laptop and currently there aren't that many options with a centred keyboard.
I've really wanted a Framework laptop ever since they became available, however as a power user with poor eyesight, anything less than 17" is an automatic deal-breaker for me. I need the text to be legible if a full page is displayed in a PDF reader that's snapped to fill half the screen.
Random question for framework owners - my 1st gen Framework 13 recently started screaming it's fans all day, every day, even when it's asleep.
Where's the best places to go for troubleshooting, user guides, etc? I've played with all the bios and framework settings I can find, so I'm guessing it's hardware related, if that changes the resource recommendations.
> Where's the best places to go for troubleshooting, user guides, etc?
- Framework community forums: https://community.frame.work/
- Framework guides: https://guides.frame.work/c/Root
> Where's the best places to go for troubleshooting, user guides, etc?
I guess general "laptop maintenance" guides should be good enough? Guides that mention things like "Clean out all the dust/vent-junk once every X months/years" (if you have pets, you can't do this often enough it seems) and "redoing the thermal paste each X year".
Do you have a way to test the temps? It could just need a simple repaste.
Repaste is a likely solution, since that generation was before we switched to Honeywell phase change thermal interface material. Traditional thermal paste will slowly pump out over time. We do have Honeywell material in our Marketplace. You can also reach out to our support team for help.
Clean the air intakes, disable all startup tasks, reboot.
community.frame.work
What OS are you on? Also try opening it up, there just be some dust stuck in there or something
Would love to get my hands on one, but as of yet no shipping to Japan. Once it ships here, I will buy instantly.
I've been a 13" laptop user since forever, so I'm kind of curious, what's the target user and usecase for this laptop? Gamers and people who need a bigger screen?
Will framework be able to do what ThinkPad $model did with the additional battery slot? Just curious, if anyone in the know is hanging around here. Is the 100wh FAA restriction across batteries?
I can't unsee nano-texture on MacBook Pro (for the better), and so any other display drives me crazy now -- including Apple's own MacBook Air. Wish more companies would offer this!
Why did provide a link that defaults to Romanian prices?
Presumably OP is Romanian/in Romania.
Here is the default link (US): https://frame.work/laptop16?tab=whats-new
Because its /ro/
This is awesome. Love the ability to upgrade as needed.
I would honestly buy one and load it up with nixOS.
My journey to exit the Apple wall has almost come to an end.
Still no keyboard with a TrackPoint?
Haha, no. I'm waiting desperately for one that ships with a pointer. Seems like I'm stuck with Lenovo/ThinkPad forever...
I’m out of the loop with laptop processors and GPU performance measured in “AI TOPS”.
I’m not “doing AI” locally on my laptop, are those AMD processors of any use to me?
I’m familiar with traditional X86_64 CPU architectures, I just don’t understand what (if any) extra bells and whistles the “AI” chips offer.
still no OLED
Is this really a valid complaint? From what I've read most pro users still prefer IPS over OLED.
It absolutely is a valid complaint. Having true blacks is a night and day difference that you don't want to go back on once you have experienced it. OTOH many OLED panels have weird sub-pixel layouts that are bad for text display but that's something that Framework is a better position to have input on than an end user.
Any plan to bring 10Gb ethernet modules to market?
I personally just cannot accept that there’s no WWAN option available. Tethering with your phone is just nowhere close to what one would expect out of it in 2025.
A WWAN modem surely would fit into the IO module form factor, no? The framework 16 got 6 slots. Seems like the way to go.
I'm surprised this hasn't happened yet. Especially for a convertible like the Framework 12, a WWAN option seems like an obvious win - and I know there are existing USB WWAN adapters out there.
Some tried, it won't. Plus, you need antenna.
> Tethering with your phone is just nowhere close to what one would expect out of it in 2025.
How so? I can't think of a single thing that shoving a cellular antenna inside the laptop will add.
Hopefully this will be taken more seriously in the gaming laptop/productivity market. I'm really glad there's a properly repairable, relatively open high performance laptop.
Is there any plans or similar for a 14in GPU enabled (with a decent TGP) laptop? I got a 14in laptop recently and find it very good for a power/perforamnce tradeoff (ASUS G14 or Razer Blade 14). Not to mention the amazing battery life.
Will Framework ever ship high-end laptops, or is the niche always going to be low-to-mid spec repairable?
The specification targets on them are always chronically low.
What do you mean by high end? The Framework 13 can be configured with an AMD AI 370 (12 cores/24 threads zen5), a 2.8k 120 hz display, 96GB of ram and an 8TB SSD. That seems pretty high end to me?
It would be nice to see a 5070 Ti, 5080, or even Quadro-grade RTX 5000 ADA for graphics-oriented workloads.
I'm not sure the type-c (200-230w) would be sufficient to run these cards at their reccomended TGP (150w) + CPU (50w) + charge - not that most 16" productivity-oriented notebooks do (70-115W).
They could run in lower power mode(s)... Given the power/cooling requirements for the module, I'm not sure they'd perform much better than the 5070 option already there. Another comment mentioned the 5070 is configured to run at 100W.
a 5070ti would be a lot better since that gets you up to 12gb VRAM.
Or... NVidia could allow 16gb with a 5070. It's relatively arbitrary anyway, and the power limits are mostly in conjunction with thermal limits in their module design anyway, so it likely makes less relative sense to go up the stack at those limits.
The spec says the type-C PSU is 240W, which is faintly terrifying.
Issue is that the circuitry to convert the USB-C PD 20V to e.g. 12V and 5V for componenets results in a power loss - so realistically take 5-10% off any USB-C adapter's wattage.
Gaming/productivity laptops of similar size ship with 300W power bricks now (e.g. MSI Vector 16 HX AI with RTX5090 ships with a 330W adapter to satisfy its 240W system power). It's also why most still use their own connector (ASUS decided to use their own connector due to conversion efficiency and heat issues with USB-C at high wattage).
Still, 330W pales in comparison of the TGP of a desktop-class RTX5070 (requires 250W). Nevermind the RTX5090's requirements (575W).
What does high-end mean to you/what specs do you find to be too low? I've found them plenty powerful for a dev machine.
Kinda wish you guys didn't have an Nvidia product at all. It's only really useful for Windows users, but openly hostile and offensive to Linux desktop users.
We continue to have our AMD Radeon RX 7700S Graphics Module as an option on the new generation.
i.e. it hasn't been updated.
NVIDIA's 5070 is current gen, Radeon RX 7700S is RDNA3, whereas much improved RDNA4 exists.
There's also mention of gsync support on the screen. What about FreeSync with AMD?
NVIDIA's stance on Linux aside, from a practical point of view the one thing I've had the most issues with in practice while using them together was the abomination that is Optimus. Considering they mention a mux for outputting directly to the display, it sounds like this might be a bit less of a pain to get working since it sounds like you should be able to just have one GPU active at a time (instead of both of them having to work together).
Choice is good, IMO. I've had good experience w/ Nvidia cards with the new open drivers on wayland
I'm a Linux desktop user and have had nothing but success with my Nvidia cards. Don't speak for everyone.
I too, have always had success using NVIDIA cards with my Fedora Linux. I suspect that the people who have problems are doing something differently, like running the proprietary installer instead of using packages (RPM Fusion's akmod-nvidia packages in the case of Fedora).
I run FreeBSD on a machine with an NVIDIA card and it works pretty well, even if the driver is a little sketchy. If it works on FreeBSD of all things I'm going to guess it works well on Linux.
I run Xorg, though. I guess Wayland is a sticking point.
It does, GP is just exaggerating. Historically people find Nvidia annoying because the drivers are closed-source, it didn't work well with Wayland for years, etc., but it's just not true to say it doesn't work.
You feel offended?
Virtually all AI training is done on Linux with Nvidia hardware. In the desktop space, I've run Linux with Nvidia for many, many years. It's utter nonsense to claim that Nvidia isn't useful on Linux.
This is a fair take, part of why I was disappointed the 5070 module only has 8gb instead of 16gb.
Framework purchasers != Linux users
TBF, almost everyone I know who is considering Framework intends to run Linux on it. It's far less of a crapshoot compared to other vendors/models.
I don't know a single person that bought a Framework and put Windows on it as the primary OS.
I wish Framework would actually find out what their customers are using, maybe with a survey, because I'd be highly surprised if it was less than 2/3rds Linux (or other FOSS).
I keep Windows on my Framework (11th gen Intel) because using Linux on it makes it suffer from inability to sleep and terrible battery life. I've tried all the tricks to make Linux work and I've only eeked out an extra hour of use, if that.
no it's not. Nvidia works on linux too. Not all linux gamers want to use AMD.
Nvidia "working" on Linux requires binary drivers that often have severe issues, especially if your mainline stable kernel is too new.
The new open source drivers that replace Novaeu aren't ready yet, and the closed source drivers had relentless drama over, first, refusal to support Wayland (after the head of Xorg, Keith Packard, officially announced the end of X development, and, second, how all future development will be for Wayland), and then trying to hijack the process with their unwanted EGLstreams API until finally relenting and supporting GBM.
Like it or not, Nvidia is the dominant player in the GPU space. They have objectively the most powerful GPUs and the best support for development (CUDA).
It would be cutting out a massive chunk of Framework's potential customers to not even offer Nvidia GPUs.
I don't like Nvidia at all, they're a scummy company. But just offering their products as an option is not "openly hostile and offensive" to Linux users. That's a bizarre take.
Not really.
Until modern times, Intel was the largest GPU manufacture, unless you include phones, then it was Qualcomm.
Now it's AMD, between computers, consoles, and the datacenter.
DGPUs for the desktop aren't really all that relevant for either AMD and NV's bottom lines, they're not major sellers. Switch sales also aren't enough to compete with combined Xbox/Playstation sales.
A lot of claims of NV's superiority is just marketing smoke and mirrors.
Calling Intel the largest GPU manufacturer is a bit of a joke.
Yes, technically they make many by volume. But they are very limited integrated GPUs. Fine for basic encoding/decoding operations, not really practical outside of browsing and e-mail checking.
AMD has been doing fantastic in the mobile and console space, I admit that. Their products are decently energy efficient and powerful for what they are. But they're struggling to keep up with the leading edge and their market share is tanking because of it.
Nvidia has a 92% market share in the discrete GPU market, with AMD holding 8% and Intel 0%.
That is not a healthy spread.
It isn't a "bit of a joke" when the graphics teams behind normal desktop apps and browsers put more work into making sure the thing works on Intel than they have for AMD and Nvidia. They know what the majority of users use.
Nobody cares if Nvidia sells lots of DGPUs if ye average Fortune 500 company isn't deploying devices with DGPUs in them and the app they're paying a million dollars a year for suddenly breaks on Intel.
People need to remember that there is an entire world of computing outside of datacenters and high performance desktops.
NV's real superiority is developer market share. Too many things are developed for Nvidia first with other options an afterthought if supported at all.
Most things are developed for standardized APIs, not any specific vendor.
For things that are hyperoptimized for a specific vendor, it is usually for AMD, not Nvidia, because most of that time spent optimizing is not done for enterprise compute (as _very little_ optimization is done, companies just buy more GPUs instead of writing better software, under the mistaken belief that developer time is more expensive than GPU TCO) but for game engines.
Game engines that are highly optimized for hardware are doing it for the consoles, both of which are AMD.
The only thing superior about NV is their marketing department.
And the Nvidia option is a 5070 with no better options, so while I’d love to support Framework, there’s no point when MSI regularly ships better products.