Small, cheap electric cars are the best! Fun to drive, easy to maintain. I own an VW eUP 2015 model which costed me €4000 used. I do not know if they where for sale outside of Norway (I only see them here!), but it is the perfect car for 95% of our mobility needs.
I drive it to work every day (where I can charge it for free). I drive it to Oslo and can park/charge almost anywhere around town for really cheap, about €3/h, which is nothing compared to regular parking, which is usually ~€16/h.
I drive it to the Netherlands, about ~950km in two days, without a hint of range anxiety, thanks to abetterrouteplanner.com. Sure, I'm averaging 85km/h, and have to take a ~10min stop every ~2 hours to charge, but that is a welcome pause to visit the toilet or grab a bite.
I had to change a bearing that was getting noisy after 10 years of use, and it cost me €50 in parts and half an hour changing it. I was worried it was going to be a complicated affair, not having done it before, but it was as easy as changing a tire.
Oh, and there is physical buttons for everything! There is a little display that controls the music and shows consumption stats, but it is entirely optional and can be removed completely.
The battery has hardly degraded at all. I'm keeping this thing for as long as I possibly can, it is the perfect car!
Every other month I drive 800km with my Opel Corsa-e, it takes me 10-12 hours and 4 charging stops.
This is 2 hours more than what my friends and relatives manage with their ICE car.
And since I have a child, I've been doing it in 2 days. Allows me to spend half a day packing, spend the other half in the car on the way to a hotel, and the next day I can be with the family for lunch. Kid is also not sitting tied to the seat a full day this way.
But I admit it is getting a bit much, and since I can't charge at home, I'm not getting the financial advantage either, so it's lots of travel time + hotel, and all the gain I get is that I love my car and don't want to switch back :D
Driving 950km with an e-up: I totally believe you that it's fine, but I'm sure I would be eyeing for a slight upgrade.
10% mora range isn't worth double the car price, probably. My personal benchmark is a 200km stretch on my way where I cannot reliably charge, and my current car is about the cheapest fully electric, that can do that. Even if I'm driving 90km/h behind trucks in the winter.
But good in you, nevertheless!
Ice car drivers love to make us feel miserable for the extra time and inconvenience, but it's a package deal, and overall the inconvenience is relatively easy to mitigate by smart planning, thinking outside the box.
I got my son a 2022 e-UP! as his first car when he passed his test - it's a RIDICULOUSLY fun car to drive, feels much faster than it is and is very direct handling wise.
It's a fantastic city car, and he's even done some longer trips in it.
I've also got an EV6 AWD which is obviously more powerful, and bigger, but nowhere near as fun to drive.
Funny! Here in Cyprus in spite of totally car-centric culture, parking is free almost everywhere or at the very worst, 4 EUR per DAY in a few spots, but even there it's usually possible to find a spot for free.
Sometimes i wonder how our nation works. Low taxes, effectively no poverty among locals (and a foreigner can only be poor if they are an illegal immigrant, otherwise they lose their rights of residence and kicked out), almost no crime, and a budget surplus! And nothing seems to be a ridiculous overcharge: even healthcare is dirt cheap, funded by a really low tax of 2.4-4% if income.
All issues we have seem to be a product of culture/poor education, rather than economical - such as some trash in the streets or very poor quality of building and car maintenance. Also no Schengen but again, only foreigners care about it.
You should be proud, but you should also lobby for better spend of the tax money.
Regardless, a well functioning nation should target some level of equality. This does not necesarrily happen through taxes, but taxes have just shown to be incredibly effective.
Regardless of your status, you still suffer from high inequality. If you are poor it is self explanatory. But even rich people need to shield them from ceo killers, use incredibly bad infrastructure, etc.
In that view I do understand why you are not a proud US person - but taxes would likely safe you - like it did in the 60s.
>But even rich people need to shield them from ceo killers, use incredibly bad infrastructure, etc.
CEO killers are not a result of inequality. The only recent example of a CEO killer was a result of being the head of a health insurance company and the motivation was not his comp.
Bad infrastructure is also not a good example. That’s just a result of gov choices on spending.
At least in the US, pulling levers on taxing the middle and upper middle class produces far more revenue than hitting the 0.1%. This is why Democrats nor Republicans will ever provide meaningful cuts for people making $90k-$500k/year.
Inequality causes issues, but infrastructure failures is not one of them.
That's natural, upper class makes money from assets, not from work - it's hard and also probably morally impossible to tax these (do it and they sell and buy assets abroad where assets aren't taxed, and just throw country into shit, leaving generations without pensions and without profits from their consumption). Only something that has no way to run away, can be taxed. Labor is that thing: for all the bad things about America, you have to build walls to keep people out not keep them in.
The ceo killing was not a result of inequality. Both the assailant and the CEO were rich and the motivation was entirely the nature of health insurance as an industry.
So given that the only recent CEO killing was not a result of inequality, what evidence do you have to support the notion than increased inequality would increase CEO killings?
Exactly my thought. It is not based on 'ability to hide money from taxation' or anything like that. Just in lower corporate tax rate (even then, it's lower still in Bulgaria and Hungary and yet those countries don't have much to show for that). Also we have tax exemption on dividend income for individuals, but again, plenty of countries have that, it's more of a norm than an exception (no country could hope to attract any high middle class or rich immigrants unless it provides that, it's a baseline expectation).
Isn't it also a way to keep outsiders out? If 30 mins by car becomes 1h30 by train+bus combinations, lots of people are effectively pushed out of even wanting to go to the city centre for meeting friends or having a family walk around.
You say it keeps outsider out. Let’s not forget people living there already, if you build a car dependant city around them they often get pushed out or have to live through car hell. Not a lot of car dependant city have a thriving and livable downtown, in fact I would love to see which city is having a good quality life in their center while making it easy for cars to come in and out to the suburbs.
Given how things are being consciously designed (via policies and/or lack of political action), the "people living there already" are just those rich enough to not have yet felt pushed out due to the housing crisis (but give them time). That maybe would be just life, but on the other hand you have lots of other policies that also favor centralization of job creation, development, cultural and entertainment opportunities, etc. So what gives? it's all a big contradiction (not economically, but socially)
If you want to fight the housing crisis decentralization would be a big win. So if the city is hostile, why not set up outside of it? People already in the city can commute to you; people not already in the city can move outside the city and the surrounding areas can grow over time.
If there are professionals willing to pay continually-higher portions of their salary to live in the city regardless of who they displace then why can't we find ways to build new areas they want to live in? In some places there is a huge weather or natural-feature draw that will always prop up demand, but in others there isn't. There's just a lack of imagination and effort.
> why can't we find ways to build new areas they want to live in?
Because people want to live their lives today, while what you propose takes decades and must be a process worked on by Town Halls, not "the people". And no, it's not the same. The Town Hall of rich people who didn't yet have the need to leave, is dominated by rich people who didn't yet have the need to leave, not the people who is more affected by the excessive centralization.
There's no way "30 min by car" is a thing unless you bulldoze the entirety of Central London and replace it with freeways and parking lots. It's always a red herring.
Cars are simply not viable past a certain density. It's silly (misleading at worst) to take a distance (say 40km) and a speed (say 80kph) and just claim the journey by car takes 30mins, ignoring everything else!
Trains + metro + bikes are the only way to make the journey you describe viable (and comfortable and fast).
I can confirm. I live on the outskirts of Oslo, and it is substantially faster for me to drive in the city center,
Rather than take public transit. Cheaper too! Although parking is paid for by my job, if it wasn’t, public transit would be cheaper, depending on how long I parked.
Why would 30 minutes by car become 1.30 hours by public transport.
My (European) experience is the opposite: it takes longer to go to work by car, you're sitting in traffic whereas subways and trains take a fraction of the time as they are not impacted at all.
I live in Rome, which isn't known for great public transport. Yet I've seen multiple times people going from Rome suburbs to Naples downtown (a completely different region, 150 miles away) than it took me by car to do 7 miles.
Even cities with decent public transport have neighborhoods that aren't great for this.
I live in Munich and yet going by car is often the fastest, and only during rush hour it's worse. I generally use my bike though, which is so-so. If was 5min by foot from the subway station (and not 15) it would change drastically.
Also I mean it's not terrible, but 30-45 minutes to get somewhere by public transport is the norm. 5min to the bus stop, bus to the subway, subway then is quick. And by car this is often faster, also more reliable, and no walking in the rain.
> Why would 30 minutes by car become 1.30 hours by public transport.
My city has "great" public transport. It's been appraised multiple times, which I guess means that average public transport must be worse than what I've grown up with. I take 20 mins by car from home (in an outer neighborhood) to my workplace (in a central area), 55 mins otherwise. When you consider roundtrips, it adds up (and if we add a middle stop coming out from work to somewhere else for some shopping, the time counting goes out the roof).
The 30 mins vs 1h30 comparison was assuming a trip from a nearby dormitory city 25 kms away, which is the minimum (insisting: minimum) distance everyone nowadays is being pushed out in order to being able to buy any home at a reasonable price. For example: where my parents live to my work is further away 30 Km: that's 30 min by car and 1h10 by p.t., but that outer city had reasonable prices 15 years ago, not today, so nowadays you would go live somewhere farther than that.
I find that typically people talk about public transport benefits from the perspective of being able to buy a home within the centre that is well connected. Yeah, the subway is great here if you live in a 10 Km radius, but talking about it is out of scope for most.
How praised the public transport of your city is irrelevant. What matters is how close/connected you are to it, and it to your workplace.
Trains don't have stop lights nor traffic. They don't care about rush hour. They are always going to be the fastest connection to a city center.
I live 4 minutes by foot from the Colonna Galleria train station, in a village 30 kilometers outside Rome, Italy. The train to Termini (Rome central station) takes 28 minutes, and Termini is the crossway of the 2 main metro lines and the most important city bus lines.
It's 33 minutes at night with empty streets and it's 1:15 at rush hour. Leaving work at 5:30 can easily cost you 2 hours in your car.
But sure, put me 3 miles from the train station, put my office in a place that is just 10/15 more inconvenient from metro/termini and it's drammatically different.
> Leaving work at 5:30 can easily cost you 2 hours in your car.
Woah yeah that changes the calculations, I had a similar situation before, andof course I preferred the subway by far. But you know, it depends. I work late into the evening and when getting out of the office, the streets are empty. So it's a hard sell for me to use a transport option that will cost me 1 hour of my already short free time before bed. But everyone's situation is different, that's why I am in favor of keeping all options open.
Unfortunately, America exported our car-privileging planning and policies, so those places that accepted our "expertise" buffed car travel as much as possible - traffic catches up, of course, but that's when the nerfs to public transit come in. It can be a number of strategies come to bear, including poor access to transit nodes, long wait times between service, and disruptions (American trains often have to wait for commercial traffic on rails). I can't speak for London, but if you're unfortunate enough to not live close to certain Washington, DC Metro stops, you're limited to driving to and parking at them, or to commuter options. Both are not ideal, timewise, but save you parking costs and sitting in traffic behind the wheel.
It took me 10 minutes to get from Liverpool Station to Paddington via the Elizabeth Line. Last year, I took a taxi, as the Line was on strike. That took maybe 30 minutes, or maybe the driver was just driving aimlessly around to push up the bill.
I had the VW e-golf a while, and it was a super car. Never had any problems with it. Sold it to buy a VW Multivan (I think it's marketed as California in the US?) which also was a great car, but it was over 10 years old so obviously had a few relatively minor issues, but all in all happy with it.
California is basically the Camping variant of the earlier t3 and nowadays multivan (t7).
It has a big history and used different frames (t4-t5) in the past.
But it’s not a us thing. The first version was really close to a us only Model tough.
Why should parking be easy or cheap in urban Cambridge? (For those unaware, MIT is just a short bridge across a river from Boston.) You should take the subway (metro) or bus. There are many non-driving options for the able-bodied.
> I paid over $50 USD for parking a bit over two hours in Cambridge Massachusetts when visiting MIT. Parking in the Boston area is atrocious.
The two are related. The whole point of charging for parking is to leverage scarcity to convince people to not make the problem worse and just find alternatives to driving to the doorstop that work well for them.
Don't forget the opportunity cost. Urban land is extremely valuable, so if you're using it for car parking instead of shop, restaurants, homes, or offices you're missing out on a lot of potential income.
This goes doubly so for all the additional roads you need to get the cars to their parking spots.
> Don't forget the opportunity cost. Urban land is extremely valuable, so if you're using it for car parking instead of shop, restaurants, homes, or offices you're missing out on a lot of potential income.
Indeed, and to build upon your comment, how entitled can some people be to expect they can just take over random ~10m² spots in a property you do not own and expect that to be ok? It isn't. Those spots ain't yours, and I would love to not have to come across your car.
In Tokyo there are parking garages that are a multistory cylinder. The car is driven onto a platform in the center, which is an elevator that goes up, and turns like a railroad turntable so the car lines up with a parking spot arranged like spokes on a wheel.
It's one way to put a lot of cars in a small space. Much of the space in a conventional parking garage is lost to the driveways.
No, the pojnt of charging for parking, is for a company somewhere to make a fat, juicy profit. The company would prefer more people drive, and therefore, need to park.
It can be both, though. People who own land and build parking lots and structures on it will charge however much they can, based on what people will actually pay. If parking is more scarce, and the demand is there (as in, it's a popular place to visit), they'll be able to charge more.
And sometimes city councils restrict the amount of parking that can be built because they want to create that scarcity to encourage people to take transit instead of driving, because they know that the owners of the (fewer) parking areas will charge more, making it less desirable to drive and park.
Wow. Look at the downvotes. Yet almost every parking lot is privately owned, and many cities have even sold management of street parking to private companies.
Do people seriously think that these companies want to charge more, for environmental reasons? Of course not. They care only for profit.
The parent says that the reason the price is high, is because someone is trying to up the price for environmental reasons. What proof have they for this? I'd really like a citation, because instead I see almost all parking being profit based.
If someone is saying it's for environmental reasons, likely they're lying to make more profit.
the city decides things like street parking, minimum parking space requirements, or if you can put up a parking lot, thus deciding the total amount of available space. actual operation of the parking spaces can be offloaded to private entities.
if less space is allocated, it becomes more expensive (scarcity), driving down car use. this is an easy case of pricing in environment and external impacts.
Yes, that can happen. Then another city council gets in, and wants more parking.
The post I replied to said "The whole point of charging for parking" was to force people to, essentially, drive less. This is saying it's the only reason people charge for parking. Clearly not so.
And there is artificial scarcity too. I've seen cities where one company owned almost all the parking lots. In that situation, they controlled pricing entirely.
I've seen a lot more of "doing it for profit", including the city doing it for profit, than for environmental reasons.
That's doesn't mean I support this position or not. Describing reality as it stands is important, one cannot effect change one way or the other, without understanding what is.
> If someone is saying it's for environmental reasons, likely they're lying to make more profit.
And they lie because they get vilified otherwise by people who can't stand the idea that they make a profit.
BTW, whenever someone gives you a reason why they do something, odds are pretty good that you're given the palatable plausible reason, not the actual unflattering one.
It’s expensive to provide parking and in a place like Cambridge. They’ve already stuffed cars in every available nook and cranny.
Did you think they should just let you park in Cambridge Common, Harvard Yard or the Charles River park? Why park at all— just stop your car in the middle of the street.
It really depends on just how cold it is outside and how much (or little) heat you are comfortable with inside. For mild winter weather (+5 to -5°C) and 18°C in the cabin, the range drops to around 80km or so. On a sunny summer day, I can easily get about 130km on Norwegian country roads, probably more.
When driving to the Netherlands in the months between March and October, the consumption has been around 8.3kW/100km. The car is light and has little tech that consumes power.
Since the car has no heat pump, heating the cabin has a noticable impact on range during cold winter days.
That said, it is a really good car to drive in the winter as the cabin gets warm in no-time and the windows in the front and back are heated and melts away thick ice in about a minute, even in really cold weahter! When doing normal commutes, the shorter range does not matter at all. But I would probably not drive to the Netherlands in -10°C during the winter!
Yeah, me included, until we where going to NL and suddenly was left with no other option becuase our diesel car broke down.
I expected a nerve wreaking trip with the eUP, but got slightly more confident after some planning. Using abetterrouteplanner.com and a charging card from elli.eco, I could drop by almost any charging station and avoid apps or paying with a credit card.
Denmark, Germany and the Netherlands is flush with chargers, so a range of ~130 is actually more than enough.
After the first trip was a success, we have repeated the trip up and down several times, and will take the same trip this October. And by success, I mean a very respectable Wife Approval Factor and a pleasant trip all-around.
The only real downside I have found is that after the 7th or 8th charge, the battery start to get hot, and since there is no cooling the charging time drops from ~10 minutes to more like 18 minutes. But that usually only happens at the last one or two stops.
I know this is far outside the norm and I plan to get another used electric car with some more range at some point, but I'm in no hurry. Having tried what I thought to be almost impossible, I was surprised to find how painfree it actually was.
The absolutely worst efficiency I've experienced was 2.7km/kWh at 120km/h in DS3 e-tense. That was a v1 Stellantis drivetrain, without a heat pump. Peugeot e208, Corsa-e, etc. are the same thing. Stellantis sucks at EVs, especially their first gen, so that's probably really the worst case scenario (apart from EV's nemesis: towing non-aerodynamic trailers at high speeds).
So if you take an EV's battery size in kWh and multiply it by 2.7, that's the worst range you will get in km.
We get 190 miles of range in winter at highway speeds if we are careful. 2019 Chevy Bolt EV with a factory-new battery from 2021.
It was $20k used.
We also have a 2014 BMW i3 with a worn-out battery. This was designed for ~50 miles between charging, or you could get the one with a little petrol engine as a "range extender". Mine can only do about 40 miles in winter. Later models doubled that, and most i3 cars on the road do 1.5x what I'm getting. But I got it used for $5000...
What Tesla did you rent? The base Model 3's curb weight is 3,552lbs. The first generation Bolt's curb weight is slightly heavier, at 3,563lbs. The long range Model 3 is 3,817lbs and the Performance model is 4,048lbs, but those tend not to be rentals.
And the cheapest Model 3 will have significantly more acceleration than the Bolt. Maybe the rental's acceleration was set to comfort mode. That reduces pedal responsiveness.
I didn't own a Bolt, but I did drive one and found it underwhelming. It had bad software, charged slowly, and then all of them were recalled due to battery fires. I don't seem to be alone in this opinion, as their depreciation has been pretty rough compared to other EVs from the same time period.
Agree! We got a used 2015 Fiat 500e for $8k 2.5 years ago and it’s been great as an around-town car. Don’t have kids, but can take a passenger or two in the back if need be (it’s tight) but for two people and errands, it’s been a fantastic value.
Just got a 2014 500e for $5k - 50k miles. What a great city car! We also have Model Y, and so the Fiat's 2 pedal driving, lack of good regen, multi-step lock/unlock process can all be forgiven for the price.
Such advantages will disappear as EVs become more common. Lots of stuff, like super-fast home charging stations or EV using HOV lanes, cannot scale as EVs become a majority. Enjoy the special treatment while it lasts.
Electric vehicles are the norm in Norway, and has been for many years. And you are right, advantages like driving in the bus/taxi lane is abolished during rush ours. The charging and parking provided by the municipality is only getting better however, and prices stay low.
Because current grids are not setup for 10,000-watt chargers in every home and/or parking spot. Just think of trying to provide chargers in an apartment complex, one to each apartment. The power requirements become crazy very quickly. This parallels the issues with rental car companies trying to charge dozens of cars at once, such as at airports. Our grid standards never conceived of such loads becoming commonplace. Whereas today when every EV owner just expects their home charger to be available 24/7, if everyone had an EV some sort of rationing/scheduling would be necessary
Some parts of Canada have already seen this with heat pumps. People were encouraged to switch from natural gas to electric heat pumps. But incentives have been withdrawn as power spikes during cold weather challenge local grids, especially when there is no wind/solar power available locally (think cold winter mornings in the midwest/prairies.)
I always set my eUP to the lowest charging speed at 5A, which is less than many household appliances. No need for quicker charging if I get home in the evening and leave with a full, or close to full battery in the morning.
The rate doesn't actually matter. Over time and with a large pool of users it all averages out. Whether you charge fast or slow, your EV still consumes the same number of watts per day/week/month to cover your driving. (5A is about 600 watts, which is like having a space heater running: Not a small load.)
The wattage matters a great deal to the grid! If a whole neighborhood charges at max speed, that can become a problem. Here in Norway, you can get a discount on your electric bill if you let the grid operator adjust the charging speed at peak hours to help them balance load, and I guess frequency. A sensible approach.
600W is not much, that is an average gaming computer running a somewhat demanding game. Nerds all over the world have this as a multi hour nightly ritual. I choose to charge my car now and then instead :P
Correct, but the time you can stay is surprisingly generous in Oslo, between 3 and 24 hours, depending on location. I used to dread driving to Oslo, but after I discovered that the municipality had repurposed an old bunker to fit hundreads of chargers/parking spost dead in the middle of town, I visit with gleeful joy :P
I see on that map, that on my last visit to Oslo I could have parked 20m from my hotel entrance for €10 over night, instead of parking in the garage 50m further away for €120. Didn't really need to charge, so just went for a normal spot.
Part of it is likely because Norway has done a lot to encourage the use of EVs. I wouldn't be surprised if this were part of this system. There have been things like tax breaks, not paying for tolls, and allowing people to drive in taxi/bus lanes. I'm not entirely sure about the extent: I haven't driven since I moved to Norway. This is all in addition to building out infrastructure - it is far easier to get around with an electric car now than it was when I moved 10 years ago.
This program isn't the same throughout Norway, though. In Trondheim, it looks like you pay for parking and then you pay for the charging separately so you really aren't parking for free. (Private parking might vary, and sometimes city parking is free).
> Lack of standards: For 'L3' DC Fast Charging, the Leaf has a CHAdeMO port. Teslas and many newer EVs have NACS. Then there's CCS1 and CCS2. And charging stations are run by multiple vendors with multiple apps and payment methods. It's not like gas stations, like with Shell, BP, Buckee's, etc. where you just drive up, stick the gas nozzle in your tank, and squeeze.
Afaik in Europe, CCS2 is the standard (and mandatory these days), when I rented an EV a few weeks back there was no location which didn’t have it. And all the spots I tried charging at except Tesla accepted card payment (though there were a pair of times it was a struggle getting a card to work).
Apps / memberships will get you cheaper prices but that’s about all I saw (and I didn’t bother with any of it).
TBH the only things that annoyed me were implementation issues of the car (a polestar 4) as well as how overly wide it is. And that the rental company (AVIS) does not provide an AC adapter, so I was not able to charge at any wallplug even though I had the opportunity to charge the car at least twice over in all (I will likely purchase one if that remains their policy and I rent more EVs).
All this is modulo it being summer and a pretty long range model so range anxiety was present but reasonably limited.
Anyone who follows Jeff will know he's US-based, but I still really felt he could've highlighted that fact more in that charging port standards section.
The fact that both J1772 & CCS2 are 100% universal in Europe is huge. So much so even Tesla switched to CCS2. This doesn't help Jeff but certainly one less problem for many readers of his article.
> The fact that both J1772 & CCS2 are 100% universal in Europe is huge.
Funnily enough, not for the Leaf! Though it will be on the third generation that's coming out this year. The second-gen Leaf (a ten year old design, at this point) that the author of the article bought doesn't have it. The EU only mandates CCS2 in _charging points_; manufacturers can still sell cars without it, though I think Nissan may be the only remaining one who _does_.
Right but that’s the most important one. If you have a leaf it means you know you need an adapter always, so while it’s a bit of a hassle to waste space on that there’s no question whether you’ll get a compatible charging plug.
The form factor of NACS is the old Tesla plug from before the EU mandated Tesla switch to CCS2. So there is still some "NACS" in Europe, kind of, but it is mostly phased out I hear.
In North America it's attempt at a CCS plug was awful and ugly and so much worse than CCS2 and made J17772 almost look preferable. The marketplace winner (by almost a landslide) was Tesla's plug and NACS is CCS protocols over Tesla plugs. All of the car companies at this point are mostly agreed that NACS is the present and future in North America.
I have a 2nd gen 2019 Leaf in Europe and it came with Type 2 and another one I've never ever used which looks like J1772, both next to each other in the front of the car. No CCS2 here, indeed.
I was under the impression Type 2 was the only European standard.
That was obvious from the article but given they specifically mentioned CCS2 bundled with the mess that is US charging I thought important to point that (anecdotally) the situations are quite distinct. Both in terms of charging hardware and payment.
Yeah, the US is in the slow market-based processes of standardizing towards NACS (which is CCS2 protocols over what used to be just Tesla's plug). It's not as standard as the EU has committed to, but with Tesla's charging network having a big first mover advantage in North America, it sometimes feels close.
Go to your local Mitsubishi dealership in Europe and you will find the 2025 Outlander PHEV with a CHAdeMO plug. And I believe if you buy a pre-2019 Tesla Model S or Model X, you will have to deal with Tesla's own plug.
I'm guessing it skirts regulations by being a PHEV, since CCS2 is mandatory for DCFC otherwise. Skirting regulations is quite fitting for a PHEV, of course, as that is their raison d'etre.
> And that the rental company (AVIS) does not provide an AC adapter
Here in Norway, new EVs are no longer allowed to be sold with AC adapters, due to the potential fire hazard. At least that's the reason I got when I purchased my current EV.
This surprises me, given that almost every country has safer electric plugs than the US. Heat is a function of current and car chargers limit themselves to less than the current the plug is rated for. "Less than" equals 80% in the US.
It might be that the average euro is less aware of continuous draw limitations since there’s so much more power normally (compared to US residential power).
Could also be that for historical reasons you could have a house wired for 10 or 13 A and not be aware if it.
‘Course you can manage that by having the chargers limit themselves to 8A default (or even always), at 1800W that’s a very slow trickle but it’s something, and even if it does not fully cover your commute it spaces out carger stops or helps condition the battery on cold mornings.
Might be - also, in the UK at least where most houses are on a TN-C-S electric supply (earth and neutral are the same conductor) if there's a break on the neutral and you don't have an earthing rod (PEN fault) the car can be at high voltage compared to true earth, and you can get a lethal shock if you touch it. There are roughly 500 of these faults a year across the UK.
Level 2 chargers here either need PEN fault protection built in, or you need a correctly sized earthing rod installed.
This seems like the kind of regulation that causes more harm than it saves in anyone's house actually burning down. I did a cursory search and didn't find any EU reports of a house fire caused by a L1 charger.
Sure you might burn a house down if you find one that has a plug which isn't correctly installed with loose connectors but the fire risk here wasn't the EV. Its the incorrectly installed wiring.
You don't tell people to get rid of their fridges because some people might have forgetten to plug theirs in and therefore they could get food poisoning from spoiled food inside.
I haven't been able to find concrete stories either, though these[1] statistics might be an indication. It shows there's a few EVs per year that lead to a building fire, though sadly nothing further about source. So could be something else like battery.
That said there's been a campaign for several years trying to get rid of sockets for high current or permanent installations. I recently replaced both an electric water heater and mini split AC, and in both cases the previous appliance had used a socket and that was not allowed anymore.
In most of Europe high current would be 32A, 16A is generally the standard (though I know Switzerland uses 10A and I believe UK plugs are rated for 13).
There has been plenty of local news about minor fires caused by EV charging in recent years. Usually neither the house nor the car burn to the ground, so won't make national news.
Typical cause seems to be old, worn-out installations or improperly done installations.
Perhaps 999/1000 outlets being able to function safely at rated longterm maximum draw (when there is no obviously visible damage) used to be an acceptable ratio. Doing anything close to maximum draw for long periods and unsupervised was less common.
With EV-charging becoming more common the old standard is no longer good enough. There is too little margin for error and too high likelihood of a situation where error leads to damage.
As a Norwegian I am well aware of that. However, we're part of the European Economic Area[1], and as such import a lot of EU regulation and standards. Mostly because we're required per the EEA terms, but also because some of those make sense.
It is exactly this kind of Nissan Leaf. Japanese older generation cars. Enough around to still be available, but I think it is slowly disappearing. After that only 6kW (32A/single phase) charging will be available for these cars.
Quite pricey though. That one is $1000 on Alibaba.
The problem is the CCS and CHAdeMO is different protocols so an adapter has to be an active adapter.
With CCS to CHAdeMO you need something to power the active electronics in the adapter. I've heard of some that do this by having a cable and plug on the adapter that plug into the car's 12 V port. I've heard of others that have a battery in the adapter.
Compare to adapters between NACS and CCS. NACS and CCS do use the same protocol. They just have a different pinout. The adapters are passive and so can be a lot cheaper.
I also rented a Jeep Avenger EV a few weeks back in the UK, several smaller, out of the way vendors still required their specific App and where contactless payments were an option it more expensive at around 80 to 90 pence per KWH. A week into the hire I found I could use my Tesla app and the supercharger network to charge my rental and the max there is only 51 pence per KWH and the supercharger network is expansive just works. An EV is a good option for the UK if you prefer automatics or EV's I will certainly hire one again.
It's funny he mentions Buc-ees, as on the last couple of road trips with my non-Tesla EV buc-ees was a common charging stop where it was just pull up, plug in, and tap my credit card.
In fact, I haven't had to use an app for a DCFC in several years. They either work with plug and charge or take payment directly on the dispenser.
I understand how the US and EU have different electrical outlets, voltages and frequencies. The systems developed independently, standardized on compatible versions locally, and standardizing globally would be very expensive and almost impossible to do safely.
I don't understand how North America and Europe settled on different EV charging plugs.
Three-phase power is ubiquitous in Europe, my oven and stove are connected to it yet this is a small apartment. The slightly larger plug (to fit the extra pins) and extra cables are worthwhile for the higher power and balanced consumption.
CCS1/2 (DC Fast charging) and J1772 (AC "Slow" charging) share a port on most cars. That is, the CCS plug uses the entire plug and the J1772 part uses just the upper portion of the plug.
The AC "slow" charging in the US only needs to support two-phase power (residential power is two phase) and the EU (and others?) generally need to support three-phase power.
NACS is just better in North America (versus CCS1) because it's smaller and much easier to physically handle, but the AC "slow" charging pinning only supports two phase power.
I don't drive a RV, I just charge my campers batteries sometimes. I have 3 different connector cables from the common connectors I found in Switzerland, France and Italy only.
In my area according to Google maps I see J1772, CCS1, CCS2, Typ 2, CHAdeMO, NACS next to schuko (landline) (in Austria right now).
As said not all stations provide all the standards, not every station has CCS2, hence why I carry multiple cable adapters. That's all I know really. As said I don't drive an electric car.
It's not a lack of standards, it was an early proliferation of standards.
Chademo is still standard in Japan.
Also, given his comparison to the ease of the old way, in Europe at least it's fairly standard to know someone who has filled their hire car with diesel (or not diesel) by mistake. They have warning stickers on the filler flap because it happens so often.
Meanwhile knowing someone who uses the inexplicably more expensive premium fuel option also offered is maybe rarer.
Maybe EV-owning car reviewers should counter the FUD by pretending to be confused by these, always using the most expensive one in price comparisons and then breaking the car completely by using the wrong one during their test drive, like the many propaganda pieces put out about EVs.
A big difference is that if you go to a gas station you’ll have both (and possibly more). At least in Europe. So while you need to fill with the right fuel unless the pump is broken or the tanks are empty the fuel you need will be available.
In the US, if you roll up to a random charging station you may or may not find a plug matching your car’s port.
I think the common mistake they’re alluding to is Europe and north America having conflicting standards for colour-coding the pumps. So here green is unleaded and black is diesel, which can catch American tourists unaware. (Especially so with language barriers, “sans plomb” in French is not intuitively petrol/gas/benzo)
As someone who has gone on many EV road trips over the years, I've never had an issue of rolling into a random charging station and not having the right kind of plug. All I've had to do is avoid Tesla stations, all the other brands have worked with my car. And now that I got a Tesla DC adapter that I keep in my trunk, I can do fast charging at a decent chunk of the Tesla stations.
You can’t easily/accidentally fill a petrol car with diesel. The diesel nozzle is too wide. Other way around is easier. But this is the drawback of ancient standards grandfathered in over a century. EVs don’t have this legacy to carry around.
This doesn't make sense. Wall plugs (like circuit breakers) are designed for a particular max amperage draw. If I have a 10A 120V circuit and wall plug, I can't charge my car at 8A?
I have wall ovens that connect via a 50A circuit. Do I need to worry about fire hazards when I bake something for hours and hours?
Not an electrician, consult a real one for any actual electrical work or questions.
It's complicated. Heat builds up over time. So for example your standard 15 amp breaker on a 14 gauge wire in the US is rated for 15 amps of intermittent use, but if you draw that continuously without letting the heat dissipate it becomes a fire hazard. IIRC circuits are generally rated for ~80% of their max load for continuous use, so that 15 amp circuit is considered good for 12 continuous. Or in your 10 amp example 8 should be ok.
Your oven and circuit should be sized such that your long cooks aren't a concern, if you look at it's label you'll probably find it has a max draw of well below 50amps, but if you have actual doubts ask a professional.
A concern for high current outlets in the US, such as NEMA 14-50, is that they weren't necessarily designed for a large number of plug/unplug cycles. Typically you'd plug your stove in and leave it there for years to decades.
If you use the same 14-50 outlet for car charging, which is not uncommon, the contacts can lose their grip over time. End users may want to take their mobile EVSE with them and incur cycles on the outlet. Properly installed but worn 14-50s have been known to melt or even catch fire under these conditions.
End users should prefer to have their EVSE(s) hardwired or installed with a higher grade outlet like Hubbell or Bryant.
i'm always surprised how people here downvote correct information. This is 100% correct because heat in electrical wiring is a function of power (current) and time. The vast majority of electrical devices in a typical home use under 80% of their rated power. The few that do use their full power, like a resistive heater, often do not run continuously.
In contrast, it is completely normal to charge an EV at a socket's maximum power for over ten hours straight. This time component is why charging EVs from a regular AC outlet can be a fire risk.
FWIW, oven/range circuits are notoriously overspecified.
Code in the US is 220V/50A. Your wall oven will get the same, despite having a much lower max draw than the usual oven/cooktop combination.
50A (upgraded from 30A several years ago) is specified for having the oven plus all cooktop elements ON. Maximum instantaneous draw will be below 50A. There's also the standard 20% headroom allotment, and some additional safety margin to account for the heat generated by all of the above being ON (or high duty cycle) for an extended period.
That still didn't explain anything. Surely the car could limit itself to 80% of standard socket rated output for continuous draw, like they do in other countries. Are Norwegian outlets commonly installed so far below spec that that will cause them to catch fire? What was the impetus for this regulation?
I don’t know exactly for Norway as that was the best English article I could find. A standard danish outlet (they are crap) is 16A but is not rated for more than 6A if the load is continuous for more than 2 hours.
Then use a 6A charger? Assuming it's 2x the voltage of the US that's the same power as a 12A charger would be in the US, and I get plenty of charging at 16A (which is the maximum continuous load on a 20A circuit)
I have a dryer outlet that caught fire charging our little i3. I'm not sure why GP said "some countries" -- I'm in the US. The heat warped the plastic just enough to bridge one leg of the power socket to ground. It got pretty melty before the house breaker stopped things.
The torched outlet was installed specifically to charge prior homeowner's EV and was only 3 years old.
I moved to an EV-rated 50A outlet which can handle the duty cycle. We have charged two EVs off of it and so far so good. It has a cute little green logo on it and costs 5x as much as a typical NEMA plug. :) Weighs about 5x as much too and grips the grizzl-e plug very tightly and with much larger contact areas.
What was the specific connector for that "dryer outlet"? Was it an L6-30 30A receptacle that was constantly getting nearly 30A of load, or a cheaply made 14-50 outlet?
The youtube channel 'State of Charge' has a number of videos talking about cheap connectors and/or lower spec connectors catching fire. Happens even on setups where people had a dedicated level 2 ev charger outlet (NEMA 14-50 , aka dryer outlet) but the installer used a connector not rated for enough current. See https://youtu.be/fzgxKChqjtc to start.
One needs to do one or possibly a combination of:
- Set the pin setting on a home charger for a lower current output. Theres also portable chargers with programmable current limiting, which I find more flexible.
- Replace with a better outlet/wiring setup. Many advocate for a hardwired setup over using an outlet.
The reason why I was asking for the outlet is precisely because "dryer outlet" can mean a lot of different things. Dryers in the US usually don't even come with cords out of the box because people may have a few different plugs. Does it have a neutral? Is it 30A or 50A? All possibilities for a "dryer outlet".
> And since your car needs so much power stored in its battery to drive, it will probably pull more power than any other electrical appliance in your home.
Probably? No, it pulls less than my dryer which runs at 240V15A I think but also just the same as my 1500W space heater. You can totally control how much power the charger should draw.
> With that much power, there’s a risk of overheating and fire. Unlike a dedicated EV charger, a socket is simply not equipped to handle the amount of electricity needed to charge a car battery.
Wrong assumption leads to wrong conclusion. Any charger you can physically plug in will work in a house that's wired up to standard.
Here it's 15A and the charger itself actually tops out at 12A as is common. Perhaps that being common is how to avoid fires. I'm actually not sure now if that's a law or just best practice here.
How can you write "I bought the cheapest EV" in the blog title, and have a section called "Why buy Leaf?" followed by a one-liner zinger aphorism "Price." without writing... the price you bought your used Nissan Leaf for? Someone might want to reference how much it cost back in 2025 a few years down the road.
$17k minus an extra $2k added to my Camry's trade-in value, and it's eligible for the $4k used vehicle EV tax rebate at the end of the year. So out the door $15k with 36k miles and 94% doh battery, I was satisfied with the deal.
At the end of the tax year I'll have paid $11k for the car, effectively.
I tacked on the price of the CHAdeMO adapter mentally to the price I offered, since I knew I'd want it for the one or two regional road trips I take per year.
This is such an annoying part of the tax incentive.
It's a huge, pointless gift to car dealers (who need no help) because it means they don't have to compete for price with private sellers or buyers. If I have a used EV to sell, I basically have to sell to the dealer because no buyer wants to bother buying from me when they can get the same thing from a dealer with a $4k tax credit on top.
KeySavvy is the normal workaround for this. $99 extra cost to both sides for them to handle the title verification and shipping, and to act as the dealer to make it qualify for EV credits.
Maybe the car dealers have had a lobbyist that has influenced this to their favor. Wouldn't surprise me. But likewise, there's some formality and paperwork trails that exist when a dealership is involved vs. private party, so I wonder if the concern is some fraud or abuse in the private market as well. Regardless, I agree with you.
Right, set too low (imho). And not a graduated phase out either. And the market for these cars are going to be people typically past the income limit. My instinct tells me that people below the income limit ($75K/$150K) probably aren't really in the market for an EV. They are probably just trying to keep their regular gas vehicle running. An EV is almost a second/third car for a lot of people, commuters trying to offset their gasoline costs.
Individual tax credits/deductions shouldn't have income limits / phaseout at all. We get the progressive taxation on the front end, with marginal tax brackets.
No you have not. You have paid $11k + a whole working car to get that one. I also can get a new iPhone every year "for only $500" if you consider the real price being "only $500 plus a year-old perfectly-working iPhone"
The deals on used electric vehicles are pretty shocking.
Used Chevy Volts are actually more expensive now than they were a few years back, at least on the CarMax website. Maybe a higher price because they were discontinued but I used to love my Volt. Averaged 150mpg over 3 years.
During COVID lockdowns I got on a plane to San Diego and bought a 2013 Volt with 100k miles for $5500. It had warranty until 2023 and 150k miles (I didn't use it though).
I have spent Zero dollars on repairs and I'm up to 207k miles.
Favorite car ever.
For another data point... I purchased a used 2011 Leaf for $5k a few years ago and still use it as my daily driver. It gets between ~50-70 miles per change and charges incredibly slow, but I'm been happy with it.
and they're an absolute -nightmare- to maintain.... even with that being the case i still want one because russ hannaman had a point- everyone loves a car with doors that open like this \[]/ not like this =[]=
My 2017 i3 REX is just fine. It needs new tires before winter hits, an alignment (it gets knocked way out really easily, especially if you've ever taken it on a less than perfect road. Washington State has many such roads), and I should probably proactively do an oil change on the REX. Oh, and drivers seat heater has a short so doesn't work (the fix from BMW would be prohibitively expensive, but I may try a DIY re-wire).
Otherwise, this car is as close to a perfect daily driver I've ever owned. I hope it lasts forever: not a single touchscreen, no OTA updates, decent battery range (and DC Fast Charging at 60kW+), gas engine to fall back on (with OBD-II programming you can enable Hold State of Charge on the NA models allowing you to truly treat the i3 as a proper series-hybrid and not just an emergency limp-along range extender that will crap out going up a hill in the cold), comfy seats, and did I mention NO TOUCHSCREENS and NO OTA UPDATES?
I haven’t had the alignment problem and our roads are probably worse than yours. Potholes, gravel, dirt, mountain switchbacks, etc.
I found that America’s Tires charges $200 less per set than the dealership, but I get steering wheel vibration at around 75-80mph. With dealership install, there’s no vibration up till the electronic limiter hits at 93mph. I’m not sure if handling the same and sounding the same at 65 and 93 mph is a feature or a bug though. :-)
This is the only car that they couldn’t align + balance prop Our local mechanic gets the balance to work up to about 85mph. Maybe have the dealership fix the alignment?
We know some people with an old leaf. On certain points in their commute the ADAS emergency brakes every single day. It’s particularly bad if someone is tailgating them as they approach that spot, though it can’t be good for the tires either.
Used i3’s are going for way under $17K these days, fwiw. I was actually shopping for a used leaf, and ended up with an i3.
I just took mine on a fairly long trip, around 370 miles. I used the hold charge feature once the battery reached 75%. It was fun to drive through a hilly region, the battery got me up the hill, then the engine plus regen charged it back up to the set point on the way down the hill. I liked that I didn't have to touch the brakes.
The fuel tank is quite small, but it doesn't take long to fill.
Overall fuel consumption was around 6-8 gallons for the trip.
Could've bought Model 3 for this and spend $300 for third party buttons. It has software thats actually somewhat hackable and car is far more capable. But I understand it's hard to recommend Tesla these days lol.
Ignoring any PR or political motivations, I’d argue the Leaf is a better choice for many people. I’m biased as I have one, quite similar, but let me give a pros from my perspective:
- a traditional car feeling, knobs, buttons, the way cars have been for decades prior
- very very reliable. basically never needs anything except wiper fluid. no software updates or crashing. I don’t have stats but might be one of most reliable cars
- compact and easy to park
- compatible with comma.ai
- LeafSpy diagnostics to monitor it
- nice hatchback format with fold down rear seats
- ~220 mile range is plenty for around town use and trickle charge overnight
Overall I’m very happy with it and while constantly tempted by Teslas I think I wouldn’t like them as much.
I thought not having Carplay was a dealbreaker, then I tried shopping other brands and they wanted $15 to $25 per month for remote start, so I went with Tesla. Plus Tesla had dash cam recording, which somehow no one else has yet? And of course, don’t have to deal with a stupid dealer with Tesla, just bought sitting on the couch at home.
Anyway, not having CarPlay has not been an issue. Although, it would have been nice to have.
I’m picking up mine today from repairs. Some kids crashed their ute into me and left me fake details (I found them anyway via OSINT). Since I have full video insurance waived excess and going after them.
CarPlay is trash tho. Had a rental again last weekend. It’s core feature - google maps wrapper - is just barely useable. Sure it does other things, but it’s not worth the hassle.
After dealing with Tesla service, I’d also put having a large and varied dealer network with potential third party service locations as a plus for the Leaf. The word potential is doing a lot of work here - having competitive service options is still an EV issue, IMO. But Tesla service is expensive and difficult to navigate. Texting with a mechanic can work, but a quick 2 min conversation with a person would have saved me multiple headaches. Part of the cost issue may be the ways the cars are built vs the actual shop costs, but parts costs for repair are likely to be higher for a Tesla, even with volume. I suspect getting a Leaf serviced should be easier/cheaper.
For some reason when I charge at public chargers a very common vehicle next to me are those Chevy Bolts. If you’ve never compared them side by side you will be surprised, the Leaf is a MUCH nicer car, the Bolts just look way cheaper and lower quality vehicles.
I also don’t get this CCS drama, I have yet to come across an actual fast charger station that doesn’t have CHAdeMO in addition to the CCS connection. Maybe in my area of midwest all the charger stations were installed during the dual standard being the standard.
The 2026 Bolt moving to the Ultium platform may also improve some of the interior quality (because the battery platform will be cheaper again). It is probably a couple months still before we can easily test drive one to get a good feel, but I am curious to see what they do with the new model, especially because GM is especially returning it to be their cheapest EV.
I drove both before I bought the Bolt. The Leaf does have a nicer interior. While I wouldn't say it's a huge gap, it was noticeable. But the Leaf also felt heavier and more sluggish. In the end, the extra range, the CCS charge port, and the better driving feel (at least to me) made me prefer the Bolt.
I’m wrong about CCS, can’t edit this long after so replying here to myself to clarify.
I’m dumb, of course I always see CHAdeMO because my charger app is set to that for DC fast. Duh … a friend said unset filters and yeah there are more CCS DC fast.
Yeah, in St. Louis metro, I think there are only like 2-3 CHAdeMO chargers, period.
On the trip to Chicago, I only see 4 plugs on the way, and those are all at dealerships... which often have cars parked in front of them, so I can't really rely on those being available :D
I’m looking on the Chargepoint App and I see some CHAdeMO DC Fast in both Springfield and Bloomington. They tend to be in strip mall parking lots near Home Depots and Walmarts.
That said having a CCS adapter working is very interesting and I will be following your experience as I have similar a Leaf to you (2021 SV Plus)
I am very happy with my 2021 Leaf. It’s a very solid around town and commute vehicle. Anyone comparing it to Bolts doesn’t understand the Nissan build quality is just much better, Leaf is in a different league of design, refinement, and reliability.
One thing I would recommend is a set of winter wheels and tires if you’re in St Louis.
I’m on the fence about buying a comma.ai Comma 3x to try with it. The ProPILOT Assist built in is pretty helpful on long distance highways and the Comma 3x adds a bunch of interesting capabilities. My hesitation is partially insurance related, I’m not sure what Geico will say about it if you’re in an accident for example when it was engaged.
fwiw I’m confident after reading your post and watching you video you made the right choice for you and your objectives.
I'm guessing distances in NZ are shorter, or you're only planning to use that vehicle in the urban city core. Here in the US, 50km range barely gets me to the ferry terminal to get into Seattle, and that's assuming 50km is at 55mph rural highway speeds and isn't assuming I'm driving 25mph in the city.
Put otherwise: if the battery is so degraded you only get 30mi/50km range out of it, I see why it's selling for $2000.
Definitely only as a secondary/ runabout car. You’d need a proper one occasionally. Shame car share isn’t well established yet cuz that would be viable alternative.
400 dollars for a 2012 nissan leaf with 80% battery life and 80k miles (saved from being junked.)
MA taxes and delivery made it about 1k when it was all said and done. Insurance is 400/year.
We fit 3 kid seats in the back and have replaced all our metropolitan rides with the nissan. Ostensibly we are all < 6ft tall otherwise the 3 seats wouldn't work.
Our range is 60 miles in the summer, 50 in the winter. Because of how we use it a regular 15 amp plug works for us. Any long trip is taken with our 2018 honda HRV + Thule.
I've been monitoring the usage of our gas car and financially it makes more sense for us to rent a gas car for our trips rather than pay for the ownership + insurance of our car. The math on yearly ownership of the gas car is:
555 treasury yield when selling the car (15000 * 0.05 on a 30 less 30% taxes),
1200 insurance,
200 yearly maintenance (oil changes, amortized tires...),
375 excise tax,
40 inspection
That's about 2.2k/year or about 4 weeks of rental for an SUV. We're still holding on to the gas car for the impromptu apple picking/beach day/day trip that sets us over the 50 mile radius, but zipcar could fill that void
The second hand market for EVs is getting pretty interesting. There are lots of EV owners that are replacing their EVs every few years and because of all the growth over the last 10 years, there are now quite a few fairly nice EVs on the second hand market. Many are typically still under drive train warranty. For example, the model 3 has only been on the market for about eight years and it came with eight years of warranty on the drive train. So, most of the second hand ones would still be under warranty. And most of the EV market only started growing after that. So this is true for many second hand EVs.
And car batteries don't seem to spontaneously stop working right after the warranty expires either. So the risk is fairly low. They'll eventually degrade. But if you can pick up a car for a few thousand and then drive it for another 5-10 years, who cares? The fuel savings alone pay for the car after just a few years. Add the savings on maintenance and you are basically in the plus.
I bought a second hand Zoe in the UK mainly because they are so common, which means parts should be still around for a while yet.
the leaf was an option, and I could have bought and upgraded the battery on an old one, but I think on balance the zoe was a better purchase for the same combined price. (for me, your mileage may vary)
In terms of practicality, for where I live (suburban, edge of a large city) it works perfectly well. We also fairly regularly do longer journeys, assuming its not getaway rush hour, charging is fine on motorways and crucially getting better
We bought a VW e-Up here in the UK for the same reason - it shares all non-drivetrain parts with regular Ups so spare parts should be available forever and it's a very easy car to work on. Its easy 120-150 mile range is perfect for day to day use, I just charge it at home overnight. And I actually took it on a trip to the lake district few weeks back, no problem at all - 30 minute stop at a fast charger on the M6 both ways gave me way more juice than needed to get to my destinations. And it has an 8 year warranty on the battery, and VW lets me extend the main warranty for £200 a year, and a service is only due once ever 2 years and costs £90. What's not to like lol.
Don't really follow the secondhand EV market, but it seems to me firsthand buyers are still taking on considerable risk due to the range situation. People who have bought them abroad are sometimes advised to keep the battery between 20%-80-90% full. Following this advice, one person I know told me if they drive like they did their old car they have to recharge after roughly 170 miles, which is super annoying for them if they're driving over 500 miles on a trip. They regret buying the car they bought. When and if there is a sudden jump in range innovation that reaches the entire market and not just flagship brands, I don't see how these cars driven now won't be dead weight or dirt cheap. It seems super risky to keep one of these cars more than a couple of years.
I've driven an EV on 500 mile trips. Getting out and stretching your legs for 20-25 minutes once every three hours isn't "super annoying." If all I did was drive around all day, every day for 500 miles at a stretch, it might be, but not nearly as annoying as routinely driving for 500 miles.
For most people, the vast majority of their driving takes place well within the range of the typical BEV and range anxiety is a total non-issue. The fact is, even accounting for the occasional long trip, I spend less time at charging stations than I did at gas stations when I owned an ICE car, because the vast majority of the time, I just plug the car in at my house and let it do its thing.
>Getting out and stretching your legs for 20-25 minutes once every three hours isn't "super annoying."
Nothing done by choice is annoying obviously. But a lot of people are fine with stretching their legs on a five minute bathroom break. Adding an extra an hour or hour half for unwanted stops due to forced recharging is what annoys them.
This is tiring. Not everyone lives in the suburbs with a plug at ground level and getting out and stretching your legs is great when you choose where you do it but not when you do it in the queue for charging...
Maybe its tiring for you. What’s tiring for me is that in every single one of these threads, people bring up the most extreme, outlier situations (500 mile trips) as a cudgel against EVs.
Citation please. It takes over seven hours to drive 500 miles non-stop at 70mph. I’d love to see a credible source that documents “a lot” of people are routinely driving this far in their personal vehicles.
First, the quote from the parent post is "people bring up the most extreme, outlier situations (500 mile trips) as a cudgel against EVs"
There are plenty of people, myself included, who routinely take trips in excess of 500 miles.
Next weekend I will be visiting family 1100 miles away - I will drive, stay 2 weeks, and then drive back.
I can fill up in about 15 minutes and drive 350 to 400 miles, so, over 1200 miles my total "recharge" time is 45 minutes.
The Leaf gets ~212 minutes and then takes 35 minutes (minimum) to charge to 80%.
To go 1100 miles will take at least 5 stops at 35 minutes each = 165 minutes; realistically, longer because you have to find your charging stations and drive to them; plus that only takes you to 80% instead of 100% (which I get when I fill up with gas) which reduces range. So I am being generous to the Leaf in my estimates.
So for 7.5 hours of actual drive time, I have to add in 2 hours (165 minutes minus 45 = 120 minutes) additional because of the EV. That's adding about 25% more time on the trip.
Lots of people regularly drive 500 miles. The question is, how many drive 500 miles without 15 to 30 minutes of stopping? That I suspect is the small number. Doing so is illegal for commercial drivers in many jurisdictions, for darn good reasons. It's downright dangerous.
It seems 90% of people in the US travel for the holidays[0], in europe its around 70% [1], pretty easily searchable. The person you were replying to didn't use the word "routinely", you yourself added that word. It's bad form. If I'm doing 4-5 round trips over 500+ miles a year with a family I for one don't want an added hour, hour half to the trip each way every time. It's a legitimate thing to look at when deciding to buy a car.
EVs (or having a car in general) aren’t for everyone. Or aren’t for everyone yet.
But you’re now talking about the lack of adequate charging infrastructure in an urban setting. That’s a different conversation. It’s a worthy conversation, but not all that related to making 500 mile road trips.
This summer I made two 500 mile trips (round trip each time) to drop off (and pick up) a kid at a summer camp. It was a week long camp, so I drove up and back on two weekends. I drove an electric car up the first time and a hybrid SUV up the second time.
It was fine to do in my electric car. I spent about 5 minutes making sure I had a good charging plan, which turned out to add about 10-15 extra miles to the trip. It wasn’t a problem to stop to charge, and I really wanted to stop to eat and stretch when I needed to charge, so everything worked out well timing wise. The trip in the hybrid was a little faster, but not by much. I still stopped the same number of times regardless of what car I drove.
Note: I would have happily had made the trip in my EV both times, but I had another person with me for the second trip. She hated the seats in my EV, so we took the car with more comfortable interior for the second trip. The trip in the hybrid was “nicer”, but that was because it was a more comfortable car in general, not because of the difference between an EV and hybrid.
I have never been in a queue for charging in my 5 years of ev ownership. This includes 3 long roadtrips (Denmark to southern France so 1800 km to 2200 km each way) during summer vacations.
It's pretty common in California. Even though I was worried about charging on my first EV road trip, I've had an easier time in rural areas with lower EV ownership. Not as many Uber drivers using their freebie Electrify America charging.
I've been doing EV road trips for four years now and I've never had to queue for a charger.
A recent road trip I went on about a month ago, I pulled up to the place I was planning to charge (an EA station attached to a Walmart, was going to go to the deli for a snack while it charged). It was completely full and seemed like there were a few people waiting. I just drove to another charging location about 2mi away (a 7/11 station I think?) and charged there and had a snack. No big deal.
That's about the closest I've had to queue in the past few years. Other than that, there have usually been multiple open chargers available. And once again that's only when I've road tripped. I've had to waste far more of my life pumping gas in my non-EV than I've spent waiting on charging despite my ICE getting far fewer miles.
Of course if you don't have a plug at home, and have to do all your charging at a station, buying an EV now is not a great idea.
If you do have a plug for charging, which you could have even if you live in an appartment (personal parking spot with a plug at your residence), then you're trading a small inconvenience for another.
Yes during your occasional long trip you'll have to spend 20 minutes charging instead of 5 minutes filling your tank, but when you're around your home doing short trips (most of the time for most people), you no longer have to do the occasional visits to the gas station. You just plug your car at home and be done with it.
> People who have bought them abroad are sometimes advised to keep the battery between 20%-80-90% full.
You want to keep batteries roughly in that range to maximise their lifetime health. That doesn't mean the battery will explode if you do otherwise once in a while e.g. you charge limit the car to 80% for your daily drive and before a big trip you charge to 100%.
Route planners will generally keep you in that band anyway because charging speeds fall off a cliff as charge exceeds 80~90% (depending on the manufacturer's usable % standard), and it's rarely worth wasting 30mn charging to full to save 5~10mn extra at the next stop (the same occurs to a lower extent at very low states of charge, plus you want some spare, so the lower 10% are generally treated as a reserve).
Well, stopping the car at 40% (20% for Li-ion) capacity or alternatively at 0% with dead batteries, I know what I prefer (ideally there would be an option for emergencies, perhaps disabled in rental cars ;-} .
I keep the car at 20-80% when at home and driving around the city, I charge once a week. Before a trip, I let it charge to 100%, then charge to 80% on the trip (otherwise you waste time on the slow parts of the charge cycle).
It's really not a hassle at all. What's a hassle right now is finding a charger, as there aren't enough fast ones along the trip, but I've had the car for a year and have never needed to do a trip that long yet.
Just to clarify, the hassle is needing mutiple recharges on a longish trip, not urban driving. The regret is due to unmet expectations based on advertised range as opposed to pratical range.
No, I know, I was just kind of detailing the general experience. Urban driving is entirely seamless (I exclusively charge at home), long trips are the only slightly inconvenient bit, but I ~never do those.
I mean the funny thing is that I've never driven or wanted a car with more than a 10-gallon tank, so my "ICE" (it's a Prius, so it actually does better than a full ICE car would) range is already <400 miles. Having to stop at a "gas station" for 30 minutes instead of 10 minutes every 4-6 hours really doesn't seem like that big of an ordeal, especially since I'm probably going to be stopping for meal breaks on that interval anyway. And if you just need a top-off to make the last 100 miles rather than a full charge, you can probably do it in 10-15 minutes anyway, right?
> recharge after roughly 170 miles ... these cars won't be dead weight or dirt cheap
The average car journey is 8 miles. Being an average with a finite lower limit of 0 it is skewed higher by the people who for various reasons drive long distances.
You don't need a 1,000 mile range to get to the shops at the end of the street. It helps, but not that much.
The magnitude of person-to-person variation makes it tough to get signal out of averages.
I read a blogger say a 40-mile trip is exceptionally log for him, so why worry about EV range?
Meanwhile we put 160 miles on our EV yesterday doing ordinary errands that all got stacked on the same day. 100+ mile days happen a few times a month for us¹.
That 160 miles is 65% of our 0–100 range, or 108% of the 20–80 range. And we have a level 1 charger, so it'll take 26 hours in the driveway to recoup that charge.
¹ In my area a normal daily commute is 30–40 miles round-trip. Throw in some extra errands, or two people sharing a car, and you don't have to be an outlier to routinely have 100+ mile days.
I am not intending this as a backhanded way of suggesting your experience is invalid. I get that it's quite possible in some areas.
However, I think the point of the GP is that the number of people who say this is their typical experience is going to be larger than the number of people for whom it actually is their typical experience.
By that I mean: your story is quite common in discussions like this, both online and offline. Yet, if the mean distance is 8 miles, and we know it's going to be skewed high due to the 0 bound, it can't be all that common.
To be honest, I'd be curious to see the median here.
That's fair. FWIW my city lists the mean commute time as 23.6 minutes, p90 26.6. Travel in my area is dominated by freeway arteries, so 15-ish miles each way is a fair estimate for the mean.
A typical Bay Area commute (e.g. to SJ or San Mateo/Redwood City) is 40+ miles one way. A typical weekend drive (e.g. to Half Moon Bay or Sonoma) is a 100-mile roundtrip.
You can screech about averages and means all you want but the fact of the matter is that if you're exceeding your vehicle's capabilities on a weekly or monthly basis the inconvenience of ownership goes up exponentially. I do 100mi/day but I all but need the ability to make that 200 on a weekly basis and am doing a 300 on a monthly basis. With charging at work and home those numbers become 50, 150 and 250 between charges. So a "nicer" electric car is doable in the summer for me but it still falls on its face when those longer trips involve substantial cargo.
So yeah, I'll keep driving rusted out minivans that make people clutch their pearls.
For people who just want a dedicated commuting vehicle used EVs with 80% battery are a pretty good option.
Maybe you're just richer than the average person, that affluence buys you a lot of convenience that others can't access.
It's easy to forget the budget issues faced by many families when you're not facing that constantly yourself, but it's basically an existential consideration for a not insignificant proportion of the population.
You're circa $1700/year more expensive in fuel with your minivan[1] than with a comparably sized EV.
Your 5 hour / 300 mile journey takes around 30 mins more in the EV end to end (time spent stationary at a charger somewhere near the mid point of your route). Equiv of driving at 55mph average vs 60mph average over that time. I'd happily use the time to drink a flask of tea i brought with me and then go for a comfort break.
[1] assuming $4.80/gallon in a 25mpg minivan, vs an inefficient EV that only averages around 2mi/kwh at $0.30/kwh. Obv the 1700 excludes servicing, tyres and depreciation
What is that even supposed to be a rebuttal to? I didn't complain about the longevity of small EVs (they're generally quite good in that regard).
Not to pick on you personally but I think it speaks volumes about the type of people who make up HN community that I can come in here with a fairly narrow and niche critique of a product (inflexibility basically), hedge that comment with a "but it's still good for a lot of people" statement and a bunch of act like I'm dismissing the entire product category and then act like completely tangential things disprove that. It's like I've offended a religion.
It sounds like you can't find a used minivan-like EV, with 250+mi range. A 2022 model y has 330mi range new (probably around 300mi now). You can get them for $23K after federal rebate. Seems like a good deal that would be "doable" for you.
I mean, I don't disagree with you. But a lot of people have two cars if both adults work and have to drive to work - so it makes perfect sense for the second car to be electric. We have a little VW e-Up with "just" 120-150 miles of range and in day to day use we never get anywhere close to running out. In fact my wife uses it to commute every day and we charge it once a week from a regular plug at home. It saves considerable amount of money over a petrol Polo she had before, to a point where the car pays for itself(almost). But yeah, we also have another car(a PHEV Volvo) that we use for long trips.
You are an extreme outlier, you should wait until the technology develops further. To use your parlance, no need to screech about people clutching their pearls at you.
Counterintuitively, driving a lot of miles regularly on a daily basis is pretty much ideal for switching to EV as you maximise fuel savings (and minimise pollution if you care about that).
This has different impacts depending on your local gas to electricity price ratio.
It's his weekly and monthly longer trips that complicate matters but in many jurisdictions he'd still be saving enough to make it worthwhile.
I did a 6500 mile ev road trip and battery capacity means next to nothing. All that matters is the charging curve between 3% and 60%. Literally all other variables disappear over a road trip.
> When and if there is a sudden jump in range innovation that reaches the entire market and not just flagship brands
I've read/heard about this innovation coming to the market in six months every few weeks for about ten years and it has never materialized. There are continuous, slight and consistent improvements to battery technology which add up over time, but none of the wunderwaffe battery technologies ever materialized into the market and produced any huge jumps.
Always check if that suspiciously cheap second hand EV you're buying had active battery cooling.
A lot of the crap like the early Nissan Leafs didn't. And between that and the first gen EV battery pack design being shit in general, the battery pack just cooks itself. Its capacity falls off a cliff over time. This is where a lot of those early concerns about EV battery packs being hideously expensive consumables was coming from.
If the battery pack is actively cooled, then, as a rule, it ages gracefully. If not? Oh boy.
This is not a general rule and many non-cooled and air-cooled batteries can hold up pretty well. The battery cooling becomes a limiting factor for DC charging, especially if multiple charging sessions are required per trip.
The Leaf limited battery life is mainly to its battery chemistry (LMO), although it arguably doesn't go to great lengths to ensure thermal stability of the pack.
The Leaf has went through many battery changes through out the years. The Gen 2 (2018+ model years) were NMC (532?) and then there was a change again in 2023 (811?).
Crazy he wouldn't go for a Bolt. I just bought a 2019 Chevy Bolt w/ 11k miles for $14.5k (so a bit over 10k after federal rebate). It has a brand new battery because all the Bolts were recalled for battery issues. Has around 250m range. Feel like I won the lottery. Still plenty of them available https://www.donohooauto.com/searchused.aspx?Make=Chevrolet&M...
I have a lease end coming up and the Bolt/EUV are on my radar, but one significant advantage that Leafs have is that the lower trims can have their head unit swapped out for a nice Pioneer or Sony unit from Crutchfield, just like is possible with many ICE vehicles, which can get you a nicer infotainment experience (including wireless CarPlay/AA) that isn’t encrusted with rent-seeking gunk.
Many older ICE vehicles, you mean? EVs aren't really special in their use of custom car-bound head units. BMW XDrive is the same XDrive they have in their EVs as they have in their ICEs. Mandatory backup cams is only going to accelerate that.
It’s an unfortunate trend. I’m not sure mandatory backup cameras is really a driving cause, though — the bulk of third party head units have backup cam support out of the box and some even let you add a 360° overhead parking view if you’re willing to drill some holes and wire cameras.
The biggest reason for non-modular infotainment is to push people into subscription services.
The cars hade to come from the factory with backup cams now, then that’s going to open the floodgates to other features where a custom head unit would be useful, since they need one anyways. Unfortunately none of those features are done in a standard way where pioneer or alpine can plug into the car’s bus and somehow manipulate it.
I drive a 2023 Bolt EUV and it has wireless CarPlay. My wife's 2024 Equinox EV has Android Automotive and no CarPlay. We don't have Android phones so I don't know how well an Android phone would work with Android Automotive.
I've been tempted to get a larger car but the Bolt is so much more fun to drive compared to the Equinox.
IIRC my 2019 Bolt had android auto but required the USB cable be plugged-in. My aftermarket, China-special head unit in the old car I've been driving lately has wireless Android Auto and while it's cool, it's still effectively wired due to how quickly it drains my Pixel 8 Pro's battery.
I was so close to pulling the trigger on one of these except for 3 factors: It's driving assist platform is now deprecated and no longer receiving area expansions (I know many could not care less), it's charging speed is pretty slow by today's norms, and it will likely retain almost no value as time goes on.
Sure, but you can buy one for $12k and get almost nothing back, or buy a more modern EV for $25k and maybe get $13k back. In both cases you are losing $12k in a few years, but in one of the cases you get a more modern car.
Get almost nothing back from your $12k used car? Nonsense, you get a larger fraction back, the annual depreciation continuously slows down.
If a 6-year-old Bolt is still worth $14.5k, then an 8- or, say, 12-year-old Bolt isn't worth $0. Most of that depreciation happened in the first year, it's still going to be worth $12k or $9k.
For example, Jeff's 2023 Leaf originally sold for about $30k. Now, just TWO YEARS later, he probably paid $15k to $19k for it. That's a steal! Given he drives his vehicles into the ground, it probably doesn't matter, but if he wanted to sell it in a few years he could still get $10 to $15k from it.
Scrap value of a car is several thousand dollars these days. The OP's $12K car is likely going to last > 10 years. A $25k will likely depreciate more $12K in 10 years.
If you're buying a car as an investment then you're only marginly more foolish than if you're buying a car without considering varying levels of depreciation as part of the running costs.
I have a 2017 Bolt as my only car and the slow L3 charging is definitely a downside, but I haven't found it to be a huge issue in practice. On a trip long enough to worry about fast-charging you're going to need to stop to eat periodically anyway so if you plan your charging around meals you don't end up waiting too long. Obviously gets a bit more annoying on trips that are long enough to require more than one fast-charge per-day, but I don't take trips that long frequently.
Day to day charging is generally all going to be L2 or even L1 depending on how far you drive and how long typically parked somewhere with a plug. That will be roughly the same speed in any car. Some cars do have higher capacity L2 chargers than the Bolt does, but most public L2 stations don't provide the higher current needed to see the difference.
This I think is the key that most non-EV drivers don't recognize. Especially if you own a home, then an EV is really fantastic. You simply plug it in whenever you are home and 99% of the time you spend 0 time waiting for a charge. The slow trickle charge is both cheaper and more convenient because you aren't making trips to a gas station on a weekly/biweekly basis.
Rather than planning your charging around meals, you're more likely going to have to plan your meals around charging. I don't see a lot of restaurants with level 3 chargers in the parking lot.
Are you saying SuperCruise on the Bolt stops working or just that they wont expand existing coverage?
This Bolt EUV car drives so damn good. I was very impressed when I drove it.
The Bose audio is also quite good. After testing several new cars, I learned that Bose audio is not implemented the same across manufacturers. For example Mazda Premium Bose is just plain mediocre.
For the price that you can pay for one, Bolt EUV is an amazing deal. Unfortunately the charge speed is a deal breaker for many. But I never forgot how well it handles.
I really hope these cars last, they are a hidden gem and I think a lot wouldnt care about resale value if that charge speed was a bit better.
The audio really is banging. Everything from dubstep to heavy metal to classical it handles as well as any car audio system will (which is to say garbage compared to even a mediocre home audio setup, but all car audio sucks due to acoustics of being in a car going down a road!)
Sadly I live in a city now so I can't drive down curvy roads away from everyone, windows down blasting beats anymore. :( (I try to be a responsible asshole! :)
Lane keeping works (poorly) but Bolt's automatic cruise control implementation is really good and works in stop and go traffic and at street speeds. I've used ACS systems before that refused to work in both those scenarios.
Charging time for road trips sucks. 99% of my driving is around town. Being a smaller EV it fits city life very well and I just top it off on a 120v plug every night.
I got a 2023 fully loaded with sunroof (except super cruise) for 24k, only had 40 miles on it.
That said the app is horrible and you can see how GM just didn't give a shit all throughout the car. No AC/dog mode. If you shift too fast after turning the car on you have to reboot the car using a secret method that is buried on forums (anyone reading this, don't press break, hold down the power button until the car restarts) and you can only remotely turn climate on to its last setting from the app.
Oh and even if you pay monthly for remote access just checking the charge level through your phone probably won't work (time outs...) and locating your car really won't work.
If you turn on climate remotely, drive somewhere less than 10 minutes away and then get out, you may try to turn climate back on using the app, but that won't work because the app has a really long cool down before it even checks the car to see what the status is so you end up in an invalid state where the app thinks the car is still on even though you just stepped out and turned it off.
Resistive heating means even with Seattle's mild winters I barely have 200 miles of range.
The car isn't smart enough to close the sunroof visor on hot days to keep the car cool.
In general it feels like what it is - a mid 2010s car that was far behind Tesla at the time for thoughtful details (expected given the year and GM) that was sold into the 2020s way after other manufacturers had updated their cars electronics to have common sense features.
That said some details are nice. You can be connected to car play and Android Auto at the same time and designate one of those as primary for apps and navigation but take calls through both. Physical climate controls are appreciated, and the rain sensing wipers actually work well. ;)
The 360 camera is wonderful to have. It cost me $10k vs getting a the base trim car, totally worth it.
I bought it April 2024 and I have some 0 maintenance other than car washes. So damn cheap to own.
In the 16 months I've owned it I've only put on 6k miles and it'll never pay for itself on gas savings , but last car was totalled and I legit enjoyed test driving the EUV more than a Lexus UX 300h that cost a lot more.
So anyways happy with the purchase, great value, horrible for road trips but I do them anyway.
It is actually the largest car I've ever owned, and if it was up to me it'd be a few inches narrower in the very least. I prefer sub-compacts. As it is I miss my first car, I could squeeze in-between almost any 2 cars and be able to open my door and get out. A bit more clearance in the EUV would be nice, I definitely miss out on some spaces because of the extra width compared to my past cars.
The camera is super useful when parking in narrow spaces in those parking garages where each space is flanked by concrete pillar on both sides (why design it like that? Those pillars are covered in car paint...) or when parallel parking on a one lane road that has cars parked on both sides (always fun!).
There is actually one underground parking garage I have to use occasionally that has a hairpin turn to get out, and the wall is an interesting mish-mash of car paint colors. I've turned on the cameras for that curve as well, absolutely horrible garage and having a top down view really helps out.
I've seen Leafs for $3k or less. The problem is their battery life is ~10 years max, and replacing the battery costs $5k-$15k. That old leaf may have a 30-50 mile max range.
Don't get me wrong, that would still cover 80% of my daily driving needs, but when I need to drive to the big town for work on a moments notice I may not have time to drive home and swap out for my ICE vehicle.
I have a pre-order in for the Slate, having 150 miles range would cover 99% of my driving needs, so I am not against EVs, just sharing the awareness that battery degradation is a thing to be concerned about.
> The problem is their battery life is ~10 years max
Depends on how you define "life". I think for the Leaf, it's 70% capacity. But even if it gets down to 50%, it'll sill keep driving.
Also, what's really annoying, is that every seller factors in tax credits to their price. So that 3k may really be 5k. I'm actually looking forward to that no longer being possible.
My gf had a leaf when she met me and she couldn’t drive back home in one charge. Worked out great for me.
The fact that the range is so ass means you HAVE to charge to 100% every single time, and 80 to 100 takes ages. She’d spend 45min charging for 45min of driving.
The way dealerships roll rebates into their advertised prices is incredibly annoying if you don’t qualify. I kind of wonder if prices aren’t being inflated somewhat by dealers being able to put numbers that are ~$10k lower than reality out there.
Let's not pretend dealerships (for all their legitimate issues) are solely at fault here. Tesla makes you scroll down to find a light grey small text checked box "Include $7,500 Federal tax credit" that is the default.
Until I got an EV and realized it's not really an issue. There is always an App for that (and even on my car the software gets improved in that regard).
Infrastructure is getting better, even companies starting to see it as a benefit to have cheap/free chargers at their offices to get people back.
I see more and more electric trucks on the roads. It feels good.
I think until you have one you don't realise quite what having a range of 200+ miles means in practice. You don't actually drive for 500 miles without a break, that is 8-10 hours of constant motorway speed driving and its not safe to drive that long. So when you take 30 - 60 minutes for lunch on a long drive like that and charge the vehicle you are going another 200 miles before again really taking a break. As it stands the breaks will have to be a bit longer than you might like and it could add 30 minutes to your journey but that is about it for most people.
The other part that not a lot of people realise is if your journey is 300 miles and your car does 200 you don't charge another 200 miles into the battery, you charge 100 and then charge at the destination instead. With ICE vehicles if your going to get fuel typically you fuel it to the top but you don't do that with battery cars you want to charge them as little as possible while mid travelling and charge them while they are sat still at home or destination.
Its charging at home that really changes the experience too. The weekly trip to the fuel station disappears, depending on how often you exceed the range of the car you only really get exposed to the charging network and times when doing those journeys, you spend a lot less of your life in fuel stations!
I would add one thing my family has complained about wrt road trip charging is it’s not just the time you wait to charge, it’s the time and games/anger dealing with all the people in line waiting to charge.
And this is with marginal EV adoption. Imagine if it was full scale the headaches that would come. I mean think of the current amount of gas stations around, that would be insufficient to cover EV demand due to the fact EVs need to linger for so much longer. So good bye to whatever in your town needs to be destroyed in order to park more cars and charge them. So much for walkable cities.
It gets exponentially better with bigger adoption, because chargers being in use pay for installation of more chargers (and batteries got cheaper, so charging stations have their own storage and are less limited by the size of their grid connection).
Service stations on my route in the UK went from having 2-3 medium-speed chargers total in 2019 to having 2 rows of 20 high-speed chargers, and another parking doubling that is under construction. The same happened all over Western Europe - grew from a few singular chargers at supermarkets and hotels to many large charging hubs along highways.
Reliability and ease of payment also got better, partly because regulations started requiring it, but also because the stations don't sit idle any more, and it started to matter for revenue.
Also in EU there's enough charger coverage now that there's competition. I don't have to sit in line to the only charger in town, I can drive few miles to the next station.
The big difference between public EV chargers and gas stations: you can put an EV charger anywhere you have electricity, and with far lower space requirements. My city is slowly converting a few street parking spots in busy areas to EV charging, and it takes very little room - I have no complaints as someone who mostly uses sidewalks and bike lanes. Where did you think people were parking their cars in cities before?
Parking garages are also getting EV chargers. My office garage just added a couple dozen, and I don't think it would be hard for them to convert more once the demand shows up.
And I've seen them starting to go in at the little rest stops on the Autobahn that up to now only had unattended toilets; they're being added to the big, nice rest stops with gas stations, too, of course.
I'm not sure how cleanly that is going to scale when each and every charger is going to cost a couple grand to install. Think of all the street parking spots there are, that is an enormous amount of money. In LA county it is estimated there are 3.6 million on street and 15 million off street parking spots as of 2010 (1). Lets assume its 2k for one of these chargers assuming no further upgrades to grid infrastructure that it would just work on existing lines. Unless I fudged the numbers that's $7.2 billion dollars just for the street parking. That would buy a whole lot of bike and bus lanes that cities claim they don't have the funding currently to roll out. Probably make a good dent in rail projects as well.
You forgot just one teeny tiny thingy - it's illegal to park ICE car on EV charging spot on the streets, in garages etc. So if the number of EVs grow the number of EV spots would grow which would take more space, not less.
If you take existing parking and make some of it EV charging, it doesn't take up much extra space; the charging equipment does take some space, of course, but sometimes there's room to be found for that.
Depending on EV adoption and how much charging people want/need, you can start with a couple spots that are active charging only, and see what that looks like. If the chargers are always full, consider adding more and/or having several spots for each charger and standards and practices to move your car and the charging plug when yours is full, etc. If the chargers are underused, consider making the spot open when the lot is full, etc.
This is very regional, and I suspect is more of a problem for SoCal that most anywhere else. I've been driving EVs since 2019 and I have experienced a line exactly one time.
I would agree, though, that if you do run into a situation where you have to wait, the current system does not deal with it well. They need a better way to fairly manage a queue if it forms.
I had to use public chargers for a while when my house was being worked on and it was pretty miserable. They were frequently broken, and lines were common.
The real problem with public charger lines is that there is no social protocol for them yet. At a gas station, it is fine to pull up behind a car currently fueling to indicate that you would like to fuel at the pump next. Charging stations, however, are not built with pull-through spots. There's no place to form a queue at all, so people park nearby, circle, and sometimes snipe a spot when it isn't their turn (because who can tell whose turn it is?).
I mean, it's not like I've never had to use public chargers. They just didn't have lines when I was there. Also, haven't encountered a broken charger. (Seattle area.)
The thing that actually bothered me the most is needing a different stupid app for every one of the ~5 different networks to pay, instead of just inserting or tapping a credit card. But this is mostly an occasional-user problem; the pain probably falls off dramatically once you've already registered for everything.
I agree with you on the drive time. A buddy of mine has a Model X, and he occasionally will make the 400 mile drive to visit. He stops about halfway to stretch his legs and eat lunch, the same thing he did when he had an ICE powered SUV. The only difference is now the car is charging while he eats.
We drove from Seattle to SF and back on a Model 3, and I would say there were only a couple of situations where I wish we could keep driving instead of recharging. Otherwise almost all breaks for charging aligned with breaks to go to the toilet, eat, walk the dog, or simply have a rest.
Definitely a very minor inconvenience. And, compared with frequent trips to the gas station vs charging at home overnight, a total net positive in time saved (if you want to measure it that way).
I have a 300 mile range EV, and some of my friends also downplay charging on road trips. It seems to be a common narrative. I find it patently false. When I drove long distances in an gas car, I didn't take breaks to stretch my legs. I want to get to my destination earlier and have the driving be done.
I find EV charging on road trips to be annoying, and I can't wait until technology improves to the point where I don't have to worry about missing a charging station and being hosed and I don't have to worry about adding an hour to an hour and a half onto a road trip.
I think that gas vehicles are irresponsible for most uses and the charging at home makes having an EV great, but gas vehicles are better at road trips if only for the fact that those of us who don't want to take longer don't have to.
I think having to resort to citing such a niche as truck drivers kinda makes the opposite point fairly well.
Having said that, I've taken lots of road trips in my day and it would be a change up to how they're planned, and I would have some concern about placement / availability. But then that's why, when we bought an EV for the 99% of our family use case we didn't immediately scrap yard our previous cars, which seemed to be what some family members expected when we told them we were considering getting an electric car.
By Canadian law IIRC it's 30 minutes every 8 hours or so. However it can still be split up to 2x 15 minute breaks, and it's only a break from driving; loading/unloading, inspections, hooking up or unhook, paperwork, etc is counted as as taking a break.
The lower provinces allow up to 13 hours per day of driving and a total 14 hours per day on duty time before you're required to take a 10 hour rest in a single 24 hour period. The northern territories I believe legally allow up to 15 hours driving per day.
That's just what I've read so take it for what it's worth.
I was debating an electric vehicle in 2023. There are maybe 10 people (out of about 200) at work that have electric cars. My teammate is one of the ten. He wakes up early to get a charger. He tracks down the other owners to ask them to use the charger after lunch. They started a group chat about the chargers.
My local grocery store has a bank of superchargers right in the middle of the parkinglot next to the main road. Some days the bank is full and teslas hang out waiting, but they have to wait half in the road to make sure they're close enough to be next in line.
My apartment complex has 2 chargers, and we get people coming in who don't live in the complex to use them. People wait next to the strangers to be sure to get the charger before walking home for the night.
This kind of social interaction and situations gives me huge anxiety.
I get gas once a week, dont wait in line, always works, don't talk to anyone, and I'm gone in less than 5 minutes.
EV charging is hassle-free if and only if you have a home charger, which typically means you have to own a house as well.
Workplace charging gets extra competitive because it's often free, meaning all sorts of bad behavior is incentivized. It's weird how wound up people with $50,000 cars can get about $5 in free electricity.
If you have a personal parking spot in your residence, you can install a charger there. It will be you own charger.
In France there is a "right to charge", meaning even if you're a tenant the landlord/building manager can't refuse you the installation of a plug. (But you might have to pay for it)
I only got an EV after getting a house for this exact reason. I really like EVs, but I wouldn’t buy one, if I don’t have a convenient place for routine charging.
An apartment complex being built next door offers you to buy a parking lot together with the apartment, and optionally equip it with an EV charger. This is the way.
I have the same issue with a lack of charging at home, and totally identify with what you say here. The lack of an organised queue (could be in the provider's app, rather than a physical one) at oversubscribed charging stations is the worst thing about EV driving for me.
EVs make less sense for people who don't have a dedicated home or work charger. But if you're lucky enough to have one, EVs make a great deal of sense.
I have driven 20 thousand EV miles in the past year, with 50% of my charging being at public chargers (and 50% at home). I have never needed to wait in line, and have never needed to interact with anyone regarding charging.
Otoh my experience has been that random strangers who are charging EVs are much nicer than the average, and are often quite interesting to talk to. I hadn't expected this.
When I bought my Leaf last year, I actually didn't have range anxiety because I assumed the infrastructure was better than it actually was. But I'm shocked that at most places I drive to don't even have a charging station, and if they do it's like 2 spots that are both full.
And I definitely didn't factor in skiing, my favorite mountain has 4 charging stations in one of the hotel's parking lots.
I've realized this for myself, based on me getting ~350miles from a ICE per tank, and only filling about once ever 3-4 weeks. It's clear that for like 99.99% of my driving miles are easily in EV Range, or even plugin hybrids. Which is why my next car probably will be the later. However at only driving 350 miles per month, plus the occasional road trip, I estimate my current car will last 10 more years or more.
* Limiting the number of QCs (Quick Charges / DC Fast Charge), as this heats up the uncooled Leaf battery, degrading it slightly each time, especially on hotter days
* Keeping the charge between 50-80% when manageable
* Charging up to 100% at least once a month, and letting it 'top off' to rebalance the pack for at least a few hours afterwards
* Not driving like a maniac, despite having more torque in this car than I've ever had in any of my previous cars
This kind of thing (minus the driving like a maniac bit) is what puts me off EVs. I guess it's unavoidable? My experience with laptop and phone batteries (holding much less charge pretty quickly) doesn't help. My phone (iPhone 12) says battery health is at 81% but it doesn't feel like it so I'm not sure I'd trust that Leaf saying it's got 93%.
This is completely avoided and not my experience.
This is only because the leaf is not actively cooled.
Most ev do not suffer from such difficult management of battery and have a computer dedicated to cool / heat and keep battery in healthy temps.
They do degrade over time but very, very slowly. Absolutely not like phones.
Mine has 25k miles and zero degradation yet.
A VW e-Up(and its siblings, Skoda Citigo EV and Seat Mii Electric) all have passively cooled batteries but owners don't report much if any battery degradation even on the first gen models which are over 10 years old now. I can only assume it's the battery chemistry or cell composition compared to the Leaf. Our own is 4 years old and I haven't noticed any range loss compared to when it was new.
Could be due to American climate and Leafs getting sold heavily in America. Jeff lives in a place hotter and sunnier than Málaga. Cars can roast in their huge unshaded parking lots with black tarmac.
Not a battery expert, but I did recently look at using old leaf battery cells to build home battery. Their modules are 2s2p which make them impossible to balance.
Rivian
I think it’s eating the extra buffer but that also means that the worse degradation that happens in first year is « free ».
Then stats are a few percents per 100k miles….
There are articles about stats on long term degradation - it’s a non issue. Buy used if you can in USA - people perceive them as degraded so price is cheap but they don’t degrade fast
Funny, how 2 years old car is really old. For combustion engines, old is like 15+?
EVs will have the same problems as mobile phones. Maybe manufactures want that. But software will define the age of your car and I don’t like it. What if the car requires internet connection and the company dies?
For practical purposes it is a 15 year old design; it had a minor update 8 years ago, but was not brought up to date with the norms of the time (in particular, the passively cooled battery).
This was the very first mass-market electric car, with only minor tweaks. It's not surprising that it's a bit rough around the edges. That's part of why they're cheap second-hand (along with the fact that the 3rd gen, which actually is a proper redesign, is coming out this year).
I don't think that we can use the general "old" here. The statement should have been more explicit and include the design of the battery.
If the model gets even minor updates, manufacturing is happening right now, the car is either good enough or new enough in general, and we cannot use old as negative quality.
Electric motors existed before the combustion engine, and people keep talking about "rapidly evolving area", while the only thing that is rapidly evolving and specific to EVs is the power source. A battery, to be precise. It is all about battery, and nothing else.
The problems with this car are all around the battery pack (though honestly these problems are a little exaggerated). The battery pack is, for practical purposes, a 15 year old design. This car is no longer made. When it was being made, it was the only electric car you could buy with such an old battery pack design.
Buying a 2nd-gen Leaf in 2025 would be a bit silly, unless you were getting a major discount.
I have a 2025 2nd gen on lease because the deals in Colorado were insane and the previous cost of my gas basically pays for the lease + insurance + electricity. That said, unless they give me a killer deal with a major discount at the end of the lease it's going back to the dealer. I love the car and it's been perfect for around town and the region but with 70% of the lease left they want $18000 for buy out. For that price you're well within a nice used EV with active thermal management, modern charge connectors not requiring an expensive adapter, etc...
There's probably going to be a surplus of off-lease Leafs coming up over the next one to three years which might make a great deal for people who can charge at home.
Yeah, I think this is the only way the could sell them, at this point, with the 3rd gen about to come out. Though, where did you even buy it? I vaguely thought they had stopped making them entirely last year in preparation for the third gen (and if I go to Nissan's website it just offers me a third-gen).
ZE1 Leaf(2017) was electronically a big minor update over ZE0(2010). IIRC so much so that ZE1 battery packs almost work on ZE0 body with only minor hack efforts.
So they're basically 15 years old, technologically older than the Model S. Windows 7 was 1 year old when its basic systems shipped.
To add to what others said: back in 2017 40kWh was the standard, now people scoff at 55kWh. Cars also charge faster, which greatly increases their highway driving potential.
> What if the car requires internet connection and the company dies?
That's not a problem specific to EVs and with Chinese combustion car brands coming and going all the time, it's obvious.
Limiting QC events is easy enough. A daily commuter vehicle can easily trickle charge over night, and even the measly 40 kWh old used Leaf can get you 200km a charge - assuming an average commute of 20 km for Germany, that's a whole work week worth of battery life. The only time you as an average person actually "need" QC is for the yearly vacation road trip, but as the author writes, renting an ICE or chungus electric vehicle for that occasion is way more cost effective. Admitted: if you don't have access to trickle charge at either the workplace or your home, the situation looks different.
As for the battery health rating, it's easy enough to measure. Go on the highway, keep it at 80 km/h straight and note how much range you get out of it. In practical commute settings, range will be longer than that anyway due to regenerative braking in all that start-stop-start-stop dance.
This is the thing that ICE people need to internalise.
You THINK you're driving long distances every day and you THINK charging is a massive hassle where you have to drive to a Charging Site and wait for the car to charge for HOURS.
When in reality you plug in at home and have a full battery every morning.
And when the infrastructure is properly built (yay Finland), you can get a week's charge when you're getting groceries as the shop has multiple 100kW chargers along with a fleet of Level 2 (22kW) chargers.
The only times I need to actively think about charging are over 200-250km day trips (my old Ioniq EV has a WLTP of 300km on a warm summer day). And even then the kids an dogs need a bathroom break anyway and I need to walk around a bit to freshen up. 20-30 minutes gets us 100-150km of charge (old car, slow charging) and we're off again.
I had a leaf on demonstration for 24 hours. I was impressed with it. I drove the 50 miles to work and back, and put it on slow charge knowing I had 16 hours until I needed it. No problem. When I came to drive it in the morning it hadn't charged. It was actually a problem with the plug in the garage, it must have gone off a few minutes after I plugged it in. Now what? Wait 16 more hours?
A couple of weeks later I went on holiday. I wouldn't be able to charge where I was stopping, and there were no chargers within 15 miles. I kept my diesel.
> It was actually a problem with the plug in the garage, it must have gone off a few minutes after I plugged it in. Now what? Wait 16 more hours?
So what, that's something you find out once that your electric installation is shoddy enough to most likely be a fire risk (because the charger plug has a thermal protection built in!), fix it and then you won't have that problem again. And as the Leaf should have 150 miles worth of range, you still should have way more than enough range on the battery to do two days worth of commute even if you suddenly find out the trickle charge didn't work.
Renting a car for vacations / road trips is expensive. sure you can but expect to pay $100 per day. Also expect to arrive and be told they can't fill your reservation as they are out of cars.
> Renting a car for vacations / road trips is expensive. sure you can but expect to pay $100 per day.
Indeed... but now, think of the price difference between a small-ish commute EV and a chungus EV or ICE. Easily tens of thousands of dollars, that's a lot of days worth of rent.
> Also expect to arrive and be told they can't fill your reservation as they are out of cars.
That's extremely fucking rare to happen. In the eventuality your reservation can't be filled, you'll usually get upgraded for free. Personally, got upgraded from a small VW Golf class to a VW Phaeton once, plus a day for free. And automatic, no stick shift like the Golf.
Over the life of a car tens of thousands of dollars isn't that hard to build up though if the car cannot do anything. And there is value in having the vehicle that does what you need when the inspiration strikes.
Not having any rental cars is very common in my experience. I'm often renting in smaller cities though (like the rental car place just a couple miles from my house), I've never heard of problems in big tourist destinations or large cities.
Seems expensive but in the grand scheme of a road trip that is only like a 33% increase in price when you factor in a motel room for $100 a night, maybe $100 spend on gas a day filling up twice, $100 on three meals coffee and snacks for one. Give or take of course.
That is probably why the american road trip is a dying animal. Past a days drive you are coming way behind just flying straight there.
I thought about this too - own a small electric vehicle for 90% of the family needs and rent a bigger SUV when the need arises.
Until you do the math and realize that the 3-4 annual trips of multiple days would end up costing thousands of dollars in rental fees per year.
Plus the usual inconveniences around renting.
> Until you do the math and realize that the 3-4 annual trips of multiple days would end up costing thousands of dollars in rental fees per year.
First, 3-4 annual multi-day trips that go for longer than 300 km? If one has that amount of disposable income to afford that, go for whatever the biggest Tesla is and use Superchargers along the route, even drives so long they're a safety issue on its own due to fatigue don't get that much longer due to charging because kids will need to go to the toilet every so often even with an ICE.
As for the rental fees: here in Germany, I just checked - a Mercedes Benz Vito, so up to 8 people (or 6 people plus a ton of luggage), that's 50€ a day here. Crossing four digits takes 20 days of rental, that's a lot of vacation time even by European standards.
For that kind of distance I take a train, Munich-Dortmund doesn't take that long. As for holidays, Croatia by bus or by night train to get around horrid traffic, extortion level road tolls and dumbass border controls.
Those were comporomises Nissan made in 2010s to build an EV that will be under $30k new in 2025. Not all of it are fundamental limitations of Li-ion BEV technology.
Tangential trivia: BYD Dolphin Baseline is 20k new before subsidies in some places.
I don't think about any of this and never have. My 2022 Model Y has 60,000 miles on it and the battery has only lost a negligible amount of health/range since I bought it.
My understanding is that 2 & 3 are problems with the original (20kWh) Leaf model. Which possibly led to a rumour about the 40kWh models, that the OP has.
My Leaf from 2019 has 100% battery health and I always charge it to 100%. I almost never use fast charging though since it is a commute kind of car.
Is that the health reported by the car dashboard, or by LeafSpy? The dash has some wiggle room in its 1-10 display an IIRC it will display 100% until the SoH is below like 90%...
Obviously they are reporting the dashboard number. The first bar drops at 85%. For a 2019, it is probably getting close to dropping its first dashboard bar.
After 25 years in the industry I should know that there is always someone that have read more forums and researched more :)
Either way, the car is 6 years old. At this rate the battery will still be pretty fine when it is 15 years old and ready for retirement.
Never charging it above 80% is not worth the hassle. It is like never using your left hand for the fear of hurting your left hand. You are crippling your car by overthinking.
The performance/battery life of a phone can be seriously affected by the software (each new iOS being built for newer CPUs), whereas this is less of a factor for cars.
If you think this is what puts you off EVs, then you haven't read the horror stories from EV Clinic.
TL;DR is many EVs and hybrids (especially European ones) have tonnes of design faults with e-motors and power-electronics that not only make them ticking time bombs(not in the explosive sense) out of warranty, but also have malicious DRM making third party parts impossible to source, and repairs difficult and eye watering expensive even if theoretically EVs should be more reliable on paper than ICE cars.
Maybe the EU should focus more on EV/auto repairability regulations instead of smartphones and USB-C widgets.
Luckily EV Clinic is working hard on breaking the DRM and reverse engineering parts to make and sell aftermarket ones, but this shouldn't be needed in the first place if the OEMs weren't so bad at design, greedy and hostile to consumers and aftermarket repairs.
Seriously, we need regulations here ASAP. The free market doesn't work here for the consumer when OEMs all do the same anti consumer things.
The DRM thing unfortunately has nothing to do with EVs and everything to do with the computerization of cars. All cars have gotten more and more computerized and harder to repair with more DRM. EVs arguably fundamentally require heavy computerization more than ICE cars, but you're not gonna avoid it in a brand new diesel car either.
The EU did put in regulations, but they did the opposite and essentially mandated DRM. They want to prevent owners from turning off nanny devices or overriding pollution controls.
Hybrids are a different breed, they're very very bad. Don't ever buy one out of warranty and be REALLY sure what the warranty covers.
FYI: Mercedes Benz hybrids have a full(*) battery warranty. What's the asterisk you ask? The warranty only covers repairs up to the car's current value. Which has plummeted over the few years you've owned it and the cost of the battery is absolutely ridiculous. Like "buy 3 used Leafs" ridiculous.
Most hybrid batteries are also blobs of molten plastic and silicone that can't be repaired at all. EV batteries are constructed of semi-standard cells and can be opened and repaired piecemeal by specialist shops. Official repairs usually just swap the whole thing - again for a massive cost.
I drove a 2015 Nissan Leaf for almost 10 years before upgrading this year to a Model Y.
When it comes to charging network Tesla is SO MUCH BETTER. It's hard to describe how much of a wild west other charging networks are. You have to download this app or that app, add a credit card here, add one there. De-rated charging handles absolutely everywhere.
To be fair, non-Tesla networks are catching up. I moved from Tesla to BMW i4 (I had a quite significant disagreement with Elon when it comes to international politics), and I was worried about finding non-Tesla charges. I took a few long distance trips so far (US Northeast), and I had zero problems. Plus, if you are lucky, you get 2 year free charging from BMW, and they've enabled plug-and-charge recently. So, you just plugin, charge and drive away, mostly for free. Not bad.
I wrote this exact comment above. It's just insane when I hear how 3rd party chargers work. And I personally check charger pricing while I'm out and about. at least 30% are broken among the ones I find.
This is exactly right. It's just too big and clumsy. It's almost always the Pareto principle option that wins if it's easier to use. Because "good enough" is all that matters to most consumers.
I bought a 2012 for $7500 in 2016 and drove it for several years.
1. chargers suck. there was evgo, blink, chargepoint. Most locations had 1 or most 2 DC fast chargers, but frequently they didn't work or were busy. Not reliable.
2. range was less that expected, even if you update expectations. It takes engineering to use the range you have, especially taking #1 into account. You don't want to get to a fast charger at 1% then find it doesn't work.
3. the battery health wasn't great, but because the battery capacity/range was less, the number of battery cycles was significantly more. I charged to a higher %, discharged low each day, and cycled daily.
4. the leaf was a perfect "around town" car. Not for trips.
Tesla has basically solved all of this and their cars are usable like a regular car*
* don't be pedantic, in 99% of situations/locations
Here in southern Australia we would endlessly see this one guy with his broken down leaf on the side of the road. If I recall it was one of the very first generation models and they did not handle our summers well at all. To be fair to Nissan a lot of their issues did get resolved in come generations but it was funny to see that, yeah, they didn't do too great on those first few rounds.
As to your Tesla *. I do endless tire of folks who are like "But what if you want to circle the planet!?! Check mate EV dorks!". For 99% of the time they are absolutely fine.
A friend of mine had one as a work car and drove the 940km (580 miles)from Melbourne to Sydney with only a single charge up of $20 half way through, got lunch at the same time. I mean yes if you really stretch it, you could do it on a single tank of fuel on a combustion engine but it would be a tight run. Also to the recharge time, that drive takes about 9 hours if you do not stop. I have never done it in less than 12 hours because you end up having a lot of down time on trips like that. There is plenty of time to charge if needed. Like you say, for the most part these are solved issues.
The charging situation is a fast moving target. Massive expansions since 2016.
Meanwhile Tesla build quality is still mixed bag in 2025. The used ones suffer from previous lapses in QA which is a darn shame. These are cars that could be usable for years but because their mentality of pushing junk out to meet end of quarter numbers, many of these cars won't be able to fulfill their true potential. They are disposable junk even if they drive well.
A while ago I bought an older leaf because I had an expensive commute. Battery was ok when I bought it but it degraded very quickly. Doing my commute in winter with the heater and radio off going 10 under hoping to make it to my job where I could charge it was not fun.
I now own a corolla hybrid and I enjoy cheap commutes without the fear of running out of juice
> and I found myself with a very short commute, only driving a few miles a day, and a family minivan we use for nearly all the 'driving around the kids' stuff.
>
> So I wanted a smaller car (get back a foot or so of garage space...) that was also more efficient.
All this to say what he really needs was an electrically assisted bicycle instead of a huge and heavy energy wasting vehicle.
Bike would be amazing if the city I live in weren't a death trap for bikes. I had considered it but I do need a way to get 10-20 miles for things like kids' events or to pick up things from stores for my YT work, at least once or twice a week.
I've transported large stuff with my bike mind you, including furnitures and a small tree (in a trailer) and 20 miles is smaller than my longest commute on my bicycle which was 24miles each way.
And that was without electric assist. When I look at the low average speed and time spent in car when I use one in an urban area, it just doesn't make any sense in most cities.
But the safety issue is another story though. Every time I relocated I took that parameter into account before choosing a new place.
> they shouldn't do 16 on a 15A circuit but it seems like some do
There are 20A 120V circuits too! Called NEMA 5-20, one of its prongs is rotated. You plug that into a receptacle where one of the slots is T-shaped instead of straight. And it's standard practice for EVs to draw 80% of the maximum current, so 16A it is. I see this plug in larger machines in the office, like a large photocopier or a large vacuum.
Chinese offer this also. My wife just got one a few months ago, I think these are new things.
220V has a real advantage in boiling water fast in traditional kettles though (I used to live in china and they were twice as fast as the ones in America). It is almost worth getting a 220V outlet in a kitchen just to support fast water kettles.
There are an insignificant number of kitchens with unused 220V outlets. 220V was wired in in case the owner wanted to install an electric stove, but a gas stove was installed instead. The problem is that it's in an inconvenient location and running a 220V/30A extension cord beside a stove is a really bad idea.
I was thinking about going from gas to induction in a remodel to cut down on fumes and make cleaning easier, but we have not a 220V to do it, so an electrician will have to fish wires up to the kitchen if we go that far. We would also install a speed oven at the same time, so that’s another 220V outlet, what would be one more on the counter for a kettle?
I've been eyeing a battery-backed induction stove for my next remodel. The point is that it can charge itself on a regular 120V outlet while producing as much as 10kW output, far more than a plug-in stove. Something like https://copperhome.com/products/charlie or https://www.impulselabs.com/
Japanese water boilers have been around for decades by this point. As far as 220 V being faster, absolutely, but a Zojirushi is like $150 and an electrician far more.
They have the kettles that continuously heat now, as long as they detect water in the pot, it will cone on periodically to keep the water just below boiling. These are 120V though.
They are quite inefficient (yes, even the vacuum insulated ones) and the Zojirushi one has plastic inside the lid that disintegrates if you always keep the water on the high temperature setting. That means plasticizer from melted plastic in your drinking water.
I just have a special tap at my kitchen sink that dispenses water at 195F. I cannot imagine waiting for a kettle. One of the most satisfying kitchen purchases I've ever made for a whopping $200.
EV's look like EV's because they don't have the same constraints on space that ICEV's do. There is no engine in the front/back, no water pump, no oil pump, no water cooled radiator, no starter motor... so on so on. There's also a great big battery under the floor pan and no gas tank.
They are also heavier, so need different set ups in order to handle decently.
They tend to handle better than ICE cars due to the low centre of mass (also the fact the big mass - the battery - is firmly bolted to the frame and not wobbling around on rubber mounts like an engine does). These are both big advantages in terms of dynamics. Couple that with the much faster powertrain response and many options to do torque vectoring to each wheel (individual motors on sports models) and it's an easy win for EVs. Then we get to the potential for fan-assisted downforce (e.g. McMurtry Spéirling) and it's even more blatant. ICEs are still better at endurance, though.
People way overstate the "dynamics" advantages of EVs
Yes EVs can keep their weight low, but it's a lot more weight to deal with.
Yes EVs have excellent 0-60, but that's just because they have a great launch. Even doing a 5-60 pull removes the EV advantage. Starting from highway speeds? EVs start to look real slow.
There are some good traits to EVs but, outside of launching hard in street car trim, performance is not one of them.
I find highway acceleration is their main strength actually. Going from "just cruising" to max acceleration is basically instant, unlike a gearbox having to go down 2-3 gears (depending on how hard you press the pedal) and hope it chose the right gear, or manually downshifting (block shifts work with a proper manual gearbox but that's a pain the rest of the time; going down 3 gears sequentially on an automatic is usually not a good time).
> People way overstate the "dynamics" advantages of EVs
It is noticeable, though.
> Yes EVs can keep their weight low, but it's a lot more weight to deal with.
Define a lot? It's a few hundred pounds, excepting pickups.
> Starting from highway speeds? EVs start to look real slow.
Maybe a Leaf or a Bolt. But I would be happy to put my Model 3LR or F-150 Lightning up against something like a Camaro SS or Mustang GT from a highway roll -- I'll still win.
That 0-10mph response is way too twitchy in most EVs i've ridden. The old teslas were not like this. I'm not sure what package my friends model 3 is or if it comes down to his lead foot but I feel nauseous in that car. Its a combination of that instant torque and the suspension sort of feeling like one of those play horses on a spring you see in playgrounds.
There's something wrong with your friend's model 3. If I stand on my accelerator it goes straight (if set straight) and the suspension (set on sport) is hard.
It's not M5 BMW hard, but it's hard. I guess that if you have a performance variant then maybe it would be.
It could just be thats how it is in cars that twitchy. I don't have really any experience with anything so powerful. Fastest car I've owned is only a 7 second 0-60 car.
No, just skill. Some people are not great at operating the controls and the instant response from an electric motor is exposing their driving style. If it's a Tesla, have them switch to chill mode. Forces them to be smooth.
Yes. Some people are binary drivers, regardless of drivetrain. But a very responsive EV, especially something like a Tesla Performance trim in sport mode or F-150 Lightning in sport mode, with an unskilled driver can definitely make you seasick. Most drivers who can modulate the pedal do just fine, though.
The only real problem with Teslas is that they don't have an option to go without one pedal driving. Some drivers really aren't suited for 1PD, frankly.
No. It’s 100% a design choice by the manufacturer to make them look weird.
Even with the benefits of EV packaging, manufacturers chose to make them “different” on purpose, which really put off the vast majority of buyers. Tesla had so much success because they were practically the first manufacturer to make something look somewhat normal and have good stats.
Now, BMW finally learned and has their 4 and 5 series EV cars share a common platform with the ICE. There is no physical difference in style other than the front grill.
This is just what the contemporary Nissan ICE cars looked like.
The first gen leaf got a lot of commentary about this "EV look" and the contemporary Nissan Note had a similar front end. And then both got 2nd gens that evolved similarly.
Their Juke could be an overinflated Leaf at a glance etc.
That wouldn't explain the unorthodox color schemes lots of smaller EVs like the i3 have. It really seems they are made uglier 'on purpose'.
Also, a Tesla model S or 3 looks like a normal car so it's not other brands can't do that.
VW's first-gen EVs, the eGolf and later eUp, looked basically just like the Golf and Up. This lead people to believe that VW did not make electric cars (a lot of people thought the ID.3/4 were their first). The market _wants_ electric cars to be a bit weird-looking.
I don't buy that. The eGolf was impopular due to its tiny range, eUp was too expensive for something that's basically a glorified shopping kart.
People are well aware VW had electric cars, and the ID3/4 also don't look that weird to me just as Tesla, Hyundai Kona/Kia Niro don't.
What the market wants is cars that are cheap to drive, practical and fast. While there are people wanting to make a statement with their car I can't believe that's a majority. The overwhelming amount of cars in my city belongs to the cheap/practical category.
The only difference between EV and ICE is less holes in front as they need less air for cooling the radiator. All other things looks similar. How car looks is a design choice not related to the type of engine.
They still have similar constrains - crumple zones for crash protection mean they will never make a 'flat front' again. aerodynamics is also a factor and again places limits on design.
Car dealerships are so useless. Imagine making a profit but offering this level of service:
> Range Anxiety: Yes, it's overblown, but no, it's not non-existent. The day I bought my used EV, the dealership (which doesn't sell many EVs, even new) didn't have a 'Level 3' DC fast charger—and they had only charged it to about 16%. Letting it top off at L2 while I was dealing with finance, we got to 23%. I wasn't quite sure I'd make it home off the lot! Luckily I did, with 12 miles of range remaining.
I also thought this was a pretty silly way of bringing up range anxiety. It's like a dealership selling you a gas car with an empty tank. Obviously the very first thing you would do is to refill it before driving home.
This shouldn't really big a big deal in most metro areas, at least. The car dealer doesn't have a big tank of gasoline on site, either, they just drive the car to the station and fill it up while you're signing the papers. They could just drive to the local fast charger with the EV and do exactly the same thing.
> This shouldn't really big a big deal in most metro areas
Not sure which areas you're referring to but in the Northeast EV infrastructure around the metro areas is not the best. In my experience, I would have to plan out my stops if I was driving between Philly and NYC if I didn't have a 90+% charge and even then I would be worried that there would be a line or chargers would be out of order.
Taking a look at an EV map, there's only half a dozen stations around NYC with 100+ kW chargers and almost all of those chargers are in-use at 2 pm on a Saturday. Sure you can go to a slower charger or just wait, but it's a pain in the ass if you are trying to plan out a trip and show up on time.
> there's only half a dozen stations around NYC with 100+ kW chargers
That seems low. Even looking only at Tesla Superchargers, there are something like a dozen just right around NYC itself. Not including EA or any other providers.
Heck, even sleeping Portland, Oregon has 10 Tesla Superchargers in the metro area.
Depends on the EV. My Tesla can chew on a lot of battery with Sentry mode. My Lightning, on the other hand, goes into deep sleep and loses essentially zero energy while parked. It can sit for months without a meaningful loss of charge.
> And charging stations are run by multiple vendors with multiple apps and payment methods.
I rented a PHEV in Spain, and this was the biggest issue. Every charger has an app. They want all your information, even your home address, before charging. Most of them error out after you try to make it work in the 44 °C / 110 °F Spanish sun.
After trying five charging apps and only succeeding in one, I gave up charging completely because of the horrible experience. I wonder why EVs don't save credit information in the vehicle and negotiate payment with them via some sort of "Cable API" or something. Or even you know, use tap to pay PoS like every normal transaction does.
"Plug and charge" is a thing, and is supported by some vehicles and charging stations. Unfortunately, it's not universal (yet), but the standards are there.
When I did a roadtrip with a rented PHEV I just charged every night with the power plug. It’s kinda pointless since PHEV battery range is like what, 50km.
This is my experience as well with regular EV chargers. Tesla chargers on the other hand work seamlessly and reliably. You walk up, you plug it in and it works. No fuss.
Drag coefficient matters a lot for EVs. Air resistance reduces the range of all cars, but you notice the decrease in an EV. (When I plan a long trip, I use windy.com to see if I'll have a headwind or a tailwind and I plan accordingly.)
That's why EVs look different. And why EV trucks often have terrible range, even though they have more room for batteries.
The coefficient isn't what matters; it's CdA (coefficient of drag times frontal area). (And what it matters for is efficiency at highway speeds.) Like, my Kia EV9 has a Cd of 0.28, but the frontal area of a schoolbus. My mi/kWh at highway speeds is much worse than what an electrified Camry with a 0.36 Cd would get.
Something the size of a Camry would be totally fine as an EV. Lucid Air is approximately this shape and is a great EV.
(And at lower speeds, drivetrain and tire friction become bigger factors.)
Agree. Drag coefficient is significant as well as waxing. I think almost almost a clear third was due to waxing. And it really is not that hard to do once a week.
2016 100k km Golf Plus for 16k eur
2020 50k km e-Golf for 13k eur
I'm so glad we picked the e-golf! It's so fast and nice to drive and cheap to run. Only downside is the limited range (200km on a summer day) but even my commute (100km one-way) is OK as I can charge at work and home.
That said, we still have a Touran for when we need to drive further or with lots of luggage.
If only the chairs in the eGolf were a bit better...
CHAdeMO is Betamax all over again. It's the best standard because it supports bidirectional power flow, which theoretically allows EVs to support the grid during demand spikes.
But if course CHAdeMO is dying. NACS is second best because it's less bulky than CCS, and NACS is winning in the US so the situation is less bad than it might have been.
My electric truck supports bidirectional power flow through NACS. Currently only usable with Tesla-specific vehicle and hardware, but the connector itself does support it. It was very useful during a few multi-day power outages.
> I hate every time I have to jack up my car and change the brakes, or take it in for oil/fluid changes
This is is such a weird take. Most EVs weigh a lot more than a ICE car (although the Leaf is about the same as most normal sized sedans) so the brake pads wear more quickly. And anyone that takes the time to change their brakes is likely doing their own oil changes because it takes 15 minutes.
The rest of the write-up is pretty spot on though. I leased a Hyundai Ioniq 6 2 years ago because I thought I would enjoy the driving experience. I was living in Philly and at the time it was my only car so I used it for trips to other parts of the city as well as any driving around the northeast to see friends and family. It's amazing for local driving, but doing any kind of drive that was more than 100 miles was a logistical pain. Even if you plan out the stops, you are still constantly worrying about whether or not there will be a long line to charge or the chargers themselves are broken even if they are reported as working in the apps.
I've since moved to the suburbs and my partner uses the Ioniq to commute to work because it's perfect for that. For any longer trips, we opt for our ICE car.
The only future foray I would consider with EVs is doing something like an EV conversion on my kei truck. Hopefully the Slate and Telo are the start of a wave of small EV trucks because I love the idea of a small truck that I can use to bring to Home Depot or to pick up larger FB Marketplace purchased.
Good job. I have driven ( for at least 2 trips ) a TeslaS a TeslaX, a Leaf, and EV-1... The Leaf was the easiest to use the regenerative breaking, and the very most efficient at it. Using the 80Mile model, and hand waxing the outside ( a favorite of the 100Mpg Prius group ) I was able to go 69.5 Miles, with 22% remaining. 28% more efficient than rated. This was a mostly highway traveled trip, with a bunch of city errand running at the end.
Both I and the owner were very impressed. They ordered the 100mile battery pack, which was very expensive, but it has been great in the long run.
I think it was like 81% cheaper than a gasoline trip at the time not including long term wear and tear. ( Ware and Tare?$#).
I think the Nissan Leaf is the very best of the bunch.
I recently had a similar situation but the chademo charger was the deal breaker for me here in the UK. Yes they exist, but perhaps each station would have 1 chademo Vs 3 or 4 CCS2, while other more recent stations are only CCS2. And even if there is one there, the chademo would only be 45 or 50kw while the newer CCS2 ones are frequently 150+kw now. I think I only ever saw a 100kw chademo once (...or maybe I imagined that?!)
Some lexus things used chademo too.
Ended up getting a used VW id.3 which ticks a lot of the leaf's boxes, but has CCS2 and 100+kw dc charging
> And charging stations are run by multiple vendors with multiple apps and payment methods. It's not like gas stations, like with Shell, BP, Buckee's, etc. where you just drive up, stick the gas nozzle in your tank, and squeeze.
The "how to juice your car" question is pretty much solved on the electrical and communications side... but the "how do you pay for the juice" question is indeed absurd. I understand that providers of high capacity charging stations wish to charge a bit extra because a single 200 kW+ DC charger quickly reaches 40k € in pure hardware cost, in addition to the installation cost and the regular swapping of cables due to thieves. But why the EU and the US governments haven't stepped in yet and mandated either a "roaming" standard (where my primary billing contact would be a regular electric utility with a set base price per kWh and optional surcharges for high-capacity chargers or stations in high demand) or acceptance of all common credit and debit cards is way beyond me.
Instead, it's not just multiple vendors, apps and payment methods - it's also a (sometimes wild) difference in price depending on how you pay, at the same station. In contrast, at each gas station there is a sign that's visible from afar stating the exact price for your fuel, with the only thing one might hope for is a 1 cent discount for high volume diesel fuel pumps (aka, your truck's hole is big enough to fit a truck diesel nozzle) and a further 1 cent discount from some sort of loyalty reward scheme.
- card acceptance is only required for 50 kW+ chargers. All the relatively low power chargers at supermarkets, shopping malls and other public venues? They can get by with offering QR codes that are all too often abused for phishing campaigns [2][3] and still have the issue with requiring some sort of app.
- the "card acceptance" may also be fulfilled by PSD2 compliant mobile banking apps, so if you got a rooted phone (where Google Pay is a cat-and-mouse game), a phone whose vendor is under sanctions and thus doesn't get the Google ecosystem or don't want to involve Google Pay, Apple Pay, PayPal or the likes in your daily life, you're screwed just as well at these charger points
On top of that, the standard to publish pricing information to the public coordination exchange is a hot XML/SOAP mess [4].
I was too optimistic about card payments when I went on vacation with my electric car in EU this summer. In some countries it worked perfectly but in other countries I had to scan a QR code, which usually ended up in an "sorry, there was an error" page. When I eventually started using a charging network the rest of the vacation was great.
I ended up grabbing an Ioniq fully electric 2019 and i absolutely love it. Got it for a decent used cost, interior wise it was like new, no huge touch screen, but a decent one for CarPlay and Android Auto, real knobs and buttons, and the online portion is entirely obsolete since it used 3G so it has no connection to the internet! It’s perfect for me
When we moved, my wife was looking for an electric scooter to get to the train station for a commute to work. When we considered the weight and practicality in bad weather, we found new Dacia Spring 2023 model for 14,000 € in sales. It's a game changer since we charge it exclusively at home for about 1 € per 200 km range. There is virtually no maintenance. Having a VW Passat diesel for longer trips, we cannot be happier.
> With EVs there are tradeoffs. Even in my situation, only driving a car a few miles a day, I do take my car on one or two regional road trips every year.
That's how we ended up with a Chevy Volt in 2017. 100K trouble-free miles later, we still have it and my wife still loves the car.
> No gasoline-powered car (outside of supercars, maybe? Never drove one of those) could match the feel of pressing the throttle on an electric.
Probably need to be careful with this because flooring it is addictive and you'll waste a lot of energy doing it.
For me the feeling of an electric car gave me a strange feeling. I just felt like I was in an electric wheelchair. It really hammered home the ridiculousness of able-bodied people travelling around town in these huge electric wheelchairs. I don't hold much hope for the future but I'd love to be able to live in a town without these things around.
Leaf is great. Parents have the first model, and I love driving it whenever I'm visiting. Even after the battery degraded to under 90 miles, I was still able to make any drive I needed and recharge at home. Charging infrastructure around town has gotten a lot better too and I think when I have kids and need a car, the leaf is where I'll start my search.
Also, it's really incredible that the dealer only had the leaf charged to 16% at the time of sale.
I briefly owned a gen 1 leaf. It went from 70 miles of “range” (more like 25) at 100% to 50 in a couple of years of very light driving. Poor guy who bought it from me had all kinds of trouble trying to get it home.
Ebike would be nicer at that point. Battery takes far less time to charge over 110v. You can simply hot swap a charged battery. No insurance or registration requirements. Far lower base cost. Far lower maintenance costs. About the same range. Probably similar cargo volume compared to a cargo ebike. Just need a rain coat and rain pants and you are probably set for most conditions. Call an uber when you actually need to transport 4 people and you'd come out well ahead.
The big secret with bike commuting is that in urban setting on surface streets, its actually the fastest way to get around short of a motorcycle or helicopter. Yes, much faster than cars, thanks to lane splitting.
I have an ebike, it's very nice, and I live ~9 miles from my job, so it's well within range.
But I would not want to be caught in the ever changing weather here on an ebike. Maybe if it had a shell to protect the rider, but then we're getting into it being too pricey for an ebike range.
Last year, I got a found a great deal on a gently used Chevy Bolt EUV 2023 model with only about 8k miles on it for about $16k USD from Hertz. Granted, I had to fly out of state to pick it up, but it was a great experience all together. Learned quickly that this car is not a road tripping car as it took over an hour to charge to 80%.
However, it is an amazing commuter car. Being able to charge it at home is fantastic.
We already put 14k miles on it since we got it last year.
I was thinking about buying the leaf but I have a 2012 Honda Fit and my monthly gas expense is so cheap that I didn't bother. I use the car often but for mainly short drives within the city.
Actually, I like it so much that I began doing something I never did before with any car I had: I read the whole owner's manual, I wash and clean the car every month and I pay attention to maintenance routine.
The Leaf's used to be pretty bad as far as electric cars went, with no active battery cooling or heating. I was pretty tempted to get a used Bolt EV. I've seen them for sub 20k with less than 30k miles on them. I've been driving around in my wife's older Subaru Crosstrek plug in hybrid, which works fine for the limited amount of driving I do to commute to work. We plan to give that car to my son once he gets his license.
Yes, this involves lying on your back with a 700 lb battery held up by jacks just inches above your head. But heck, services are expensive these days so it's going to happen.
Not yet, but I kinda wonder if it will happen. At least in certain situations. For example, the F150 Lightning -- body-on-frame truck where the battery sits between the rails rather than being tightly integrated with a custom unibody design. As batteries improve, I could see people retrofitting newer batteries with more capacity.
I was super in favor of EVs in EU to the moment I visited Germany to notice that 3/4 of all cars were disel cars and getting pushed to green laws is a scam.
I enjoy driving good cars that roar nice, so bought a new disel car that can drive 180/h without sweating much.
> One pedal driving Seriously, why doesn't every EV have this mode? It makes driving one feel SO much better than any gas car, in terms of connection between driver and car movement.
_ANY_ gas car? 100% of manual transmission cars (and now PDK/DSG/DCT) have this.
One pedal driving means you can come to a full stop and start accelerating again with a single pedal. You can certainly come to a full stop in a manual transmission car without touching the brake pedal or clutch but the engine will stall and you won't be able to accelerate again until you restart it and get the car back in gear. AFAIK no ICE cars have one pedal driving although I guess it's possible to implement sans the regenerative braking.
My dream is a young person is that Nissan would release an affordable car that me and my homeless little brother could sleep in comfortably. We both are in college pursuing CS degrees and it's getting difficult.
Its fun to witness EVs living up to their original promise. Yes, the 1st generation of EVs without battery heating and cooling were mostly disposable experiments to catch-up with Tesla. That much is fact. However, the late model, new-wave of EVs (with proper battery technology) have crushed every excuse, except for variety.
Zoes are fine, so long as they have fast charge and are the last generation (52kwhr)
The software is pretty shit. Lagging and annoying. But apple/android play stops that.
As a car its smooth, quiet, and fast if you need to be. The only annoyance driving wise is that it doesn't have adaptive cruise control, and the reverse/drive/neutral switch always returns to the middle, so you can't tell what mode its set to without looking at it
It depends. Zoés come in many flavours, with different sizes of battery (52kWh is the best, the same size as current Renault models R4 and R5), rented or bought (don't buy a Zoé with a rental battery!!!), and the CCS2 port is in option (no CCS-2 effectively means no day trip longer than full range, unless you have the 22kW AC option, but still... you'll need to find a 22 kW charger en route, not that easy).
Battery management on Zoés is fine ; it doesn't have the overheating problem that plagues the Leaf and the VW e-Up in particular; it doesn't have the "very slow charge when cold" problem of many cheap EVs with LiFePO4 batteries, though it charges up quite slowly (10-80% in 50 minutes).
Someone I know recently bought a 135HP 52kWh Zoé without CCS-2 and 22kW AC charge for 7500€. That's a real bargain, it'sequivalent for all practical purposes (but long travel) to a brand new 30000€ R5 :)
I half expected to read that he devised a charging circuit for it controlled by a raspberry pi. I was somewhat disappointed when it turned out to be a normal blog post about buying a car.
I want one just as a “house battery backup” and beater car. Something along the lines of 800W ecoflow inverter in the leaf to delta pro to house. But I don’t fully know how the air cooled aspect of the leaf would impact this idea.
Not possible everywhere because of bad (car oriented) infrastructure, but an e-bike would be more optimal for this person's commute since they're "only driving a few miles a day".
I used to bike about 3 and 1/2 mi to work and back.
This was right in the middle of a major city. It was so nice to just basically not have to deal with traffic. I was faster than cars at that point.
I never got a fat tire enough to do the snow, so I would ride until I absolutely couldn't anymore. If it was 15° or Fahrenheit or less, I'd still ride. I would just bundle up like I was skiing.
It was a pretty small office, so I could just roll my bike up to my cube and leave it in there.
And when it was lunch I could go further faster.
Modern e bikes are even better. Commute farther, carry more stuff, sweat less, hills/headwinds don't matter.
There should be so much more bicycle commuting these days with e-bikes.
Yeah we get like 33 and rain in the Pacific Northwest for a solid chunk of the winter (only freezes sometimes). I find I end up riding with less electric assist during the winter so I generate my own heat.
It's not an either-or. You can have streets which are car-friendly, bike-friendly, and pedestrian-friendly at the same time. Just look at the Dutch, they've been doing it for years. That is until recently in some big cities, though, where some less knowledgeable politicians have also adopted this false populist either-car-or-bike concept. Though the traditional principle still applies to about 99% of the country's roadworks, and it works really well.
As European it really struck me how poor the second hand ev market must be in the US. For the “cheap second hand car to do short distances” we have a lot of options really cheap - older gen Renault Zoe and Peugeot e208s, leafs, even the old hyundai Ioniq which is a bit of a cult favourite for its efficiency
If you buy used cars you are limited to what someone else bought 3 or more years ago. new didn't have many options then. Even now there are not many good options for a new car buyer but most niches have something. I wanted an used id.buzz, but that won't be an option for 2 more years and so I'm stuck with the current minivan. my truck is dieing and a silverado could do but I can't afford payments on it new so again 2 more years and I need something else in the meantime.
I don't think it's an EV issue. It's rather "How poor the second hand small car market must be in the US". I guess alternatives in the same class in US are only two cars: Fiat 500 and Yaris.
The trick with neutral in the leaf is that you have to hold the gear selector in the neutral direction for about a second. No relation to brake pedal timing as far as I can tell. No idea why neutral has that delay given none of the other “gears” do.
Because neutral isn't a thing they expect the lowest common denominator consumer the car is designed to be usable for to be using on the daily so they gate it behind some stupid extra motions.
It's like a "lite" version of how some cars make you enter a stupid cheat code to reset your oil change reminder or some other thing that should just be in settings.
My neighbor has an Ioniq 5, styling-wise it's cooler than my Tesla. Reminds me of Corrado -- one of my favorite cars. But we have had night and day experiences with charging our EVs.
The supercharger network seems effortless & flawless -- almost too good. No payments, planning. The stations are clean, quiet & secluded. Just follow the Nav and charge.
The third-party network has been a disaster for my neighbor. He's had to back track many times, even on ~ 2 hr trips. The chargers are broken, causing him to double-back even more. On a recent trip the only working charger was next to a gas station and the fumes made his wife sick. He has 4+ apps to manage charging payments .
1. You charge at home and typically drive relatively short distances, meaning you almost never have to interact with a commercial charger; or
2. If you need to rely on commercial chargers, you live in a part of the world where Tesla was never allowed to build a charging network monopoly (i.e anywhere outside the US), or in a part of the US where there's decent fast charging infrastructure
It sounds like your neighbour is unfortunate to require relatively frequent charging at commercial charging stations, in a part of the world where Tesla was allowed to build out a charging network monopoly.
his has the older port , I think CCS. 2025 was the first year with NACS . I heard Hyundai offers the adapters free / discounted but he hasn't picked one up yet.
That's not the cheapest, at least in France the cheapest new EV is the Dacia Spring.
Of course if you look at the used market, older models like Renault Zoe can also be found for cheap... But considering EV technology have been evolving fast, I wouldn't buy a model older than 5 years old.
I also wouldn't want anything that doesn't have a CCS2. All my small electronics are finally USB-C, I don't want to deal with obsolete plug types and adapters again.
Like my other cars, I plan on driving it into the ground :)
And the range is overkill for me, really. I could live with 100 miles or so and not worry, so even if the battery wears down to 50% SoH (right now it's 93% after 36k miles), I'll still be happy.
What's your strategy for scrapping a car? I find people grossly underestimate the cost of car ownership mostly due to cost of maintenance and repairs at the end of life. It's so easy to keep bleeding parts and labour for longer than is economical.
EV motors typically outlive the rest of the car. Leaf is old enough that there's a whole cottage industry of battery repairs, replacements, and repurposing them for solar energy storage.
I've meant you don't need to worry about motors failing in old EVs, unlike engines that are the primarily concern in old ICE cars.
Apart from battery degradation, the other thing that may be the final nail in the coffin for an old EV (other than Leaf) is failure of HVAC. Temperature management is important for keeping batteries healthy when fast charging, and to prevent motors from overheating when you send them a quarter of a megawatt of power.
And the rest of the problems is the same like in any other car of the same era.
> They seem to not require an Internet connection for their cars
That would be the only reason to get that car now days! Can the car just drive without Internet. I want my car to be my not connected to cloud for all kinds crap.
> found myself with a very short commute, only driving a few miles a day
> No gasoline-powered car [...] could match the feel of pressing the throttle on an electric.
You know what is unmatched for joyful travel through space, with occasional bursts of adrenaline? Especially practical over short distances of a few miles?
A bicycle! Especially when you already have one vehicle for family obligations.
I snicker when I see those ads that promise you'll be just whooshing around through rolling hills in your newest automotive purchase. No, buddy, you'll be gnashing teeth in traffic most of the time.
Hmm, my friend had a 2015 Leaf, the interior seemed much nicer and more modern than this 2023 model.
> There is no 'play/pause' button. Anywhere. At least not on the steering wheel or the display area. You have to go into the music section on the entertainment display, then press the software play/pause button. That's dumb.
My new to me 2023 Honda Odyssey has the same stupid issue. It's my first vehicle with a touch screen, and I have a lot of trouble hitting the pause button especially when I'm trying to mute it because I need to pay extra attention to the road. WHY is there not just a Play/Pause button on the wheel!? Or at least a physical button on the dashboard.
Fortunately, the play/pause button problem is easily solved. Aliexpress sells play/pause buttons. Search for something like "Auto Wireless Media Button". They connect via Bluetooth, you can stick them anywhere on your dashboard, and they use a button cell that lasts about a year. There are also ring-shaped ones you can attach to the steering wheel.
On my 2021 Nissan Kicks, the volume knob is the only play/pause button. It's not a mute button only, it does pause your media coming through CarPlay.
Also, this is my last Nissan. I have been thoroughly disappointed with the super buggy and laggy head unit in this thing and it is apparently a common theme for Nissan.
Your friend probably had an SL-trimmed Leaf. The car in the video is an SV, which has cloth seats, etc. Interestingly, it looks like Nissan no longer offers the nicer trim levels for the Leaf, only S and SV PLus (at least as of 2025.)
Looks like you bought a faulty computer which happens to have 4 wheels buddy.
The neutral and parking brake issues: that just by itself should make Nissan stocks plummet. 2025 and we have these issues? It definitely looks an involution to me.
Things we humans are still lame at: adapters. Power adapters, cable data adapters. Why do we have bazillions adapters?
Can't we just design one adapter for the whole world that makes happy both manufacturers and customers? If not governments should step in and force manufacturers to include all adapters ever needed as part of a car purchase. That you have to spend more money just to charge a car because of the adapter is ridiculous.
If EVs are in this line of quality/user experience in general, thanks I'll pass and get something reliable and old school that actually works as expected.
Edit: And we don't need mobile apps to control our cars. Another really stupid and ridiculous idea that has been pushed to customers when no-one actually asked for that.
EU solved it years ago by mandating CCS2. Even Tesla in EU uses that plug and reportedly just works, except Tesla have no access to DCFC without carrying an adapter because they adamantly reject Combo2. I believe China does the same, only stricter, and some of Model S/X in China reportedly has fuel doors to fit the port.
As if regulations work. They seem to have very strange situations over there.
Everyone in the us has now agreed to use teslas NACS so this problem will go away with new cars over the next 5 years or so. If you have an older car good luck. And many parking garrages won't update their chargers. Still with NACS and ev's taking off you will see a lot more chargers going up as investors try to get this new market for charging:
Strictly speaking, the EU only mandates CCS2 on _chargers_; the second gen Leaf sold in Europe didn't have CCS2, though I think it was about the last car not to have it.
What is the neutral issue? It sounds annoying to switch in to, but when do you even need neutral in an EV? The reasons I’ve needed it while driving ICE cars aren’t there in an EV, because it’s the same as the car being off.
Come to think of it, I have no idea how to get my car in to neutral.
I don't know about the neutral issue... The only time I use the neutral is to go through an automatic car wash. Hold the brake and push the selector to the left/neutral for ~3 seconds.
Huh, today I learnt about continuous automatic car washes. Never seen one of those, the ones over here you park in and it moves around you, they’ve been that way since the 90s at least.
Oh thank God. The cheapest EV in China is little more than a flashlight with a wind up propeller, (joking/not joking) but not as safe. No one it their right mind could compare it to a leaf to a tesla.
Something which this article highlights is the lack of reliable rail in the USA.
Where I am there is a decent rail network, and the rail provider has a fleet of EVs for rent, where the cost of the electricity is included. This provides a "green" last mile solution even if the public transport itself in each area may be lacking (often it's not however).
So a trip looks like this:
Hop on the train which quickly takes the lion's-share of the travelling distance, then switch to an EV that fills the gap to the final destination/s. Then do this process in reverse to get home.
This approach solves the largest problems presented by the author.
High speed rails would involve large scale manufacturing and long-term planning. This is the one thing the US simply cannot do anymore (unless it's military, then they will make 300ish in a decade)
Trains in the western US are not faster than driving because there is heavy freight rail traffic. Passenger trains (if they existed) would get stuck behind slow freight trains.
That’s why more rail needs to be built. I.e a robust network - I find I’m repeating myself.
Side lanes are also a feature of these networks, and exist not just to overtake freight or behind schedule trains, but also enable different levels of service, such as express trains versus “all stops” style services.
With these things, it is helpful to place oneself on the other end of the transaction and think how you would price things. When you think about it critically, you notice that it can get pretty sophisticated.
This is true, except that the manufacturers frequently choose to eat the loss by setting the residual unnaturally high. Even Tesla has been doing this lately.
How does leasing save you from depreciation? Surely the company leasing you the car has a good idea of what the depreciation will be, and they want to make money.
Some of the manufacturers put a high residual on the lease because it moves vehicles. They'll presumably be losing money on the deal, eventually. But the nice thing about leasing is that you decide in advance what the depreciation is going to be, so you get to make it a certainty and base your decision on that.
Even then, it is rarely a good economic decision. Its hard to predict which cars will rise in value that much (unless you're spending $800K+ on some invite-only limited-run hypercar). The storage and insurance add up. It'll invariably need repairs after that time, which can cost a fortune on a limited run car. The opportunity cost will be investing that money in the stock market, which is much more likely to 10x your money.
$15k after adjusting for extra $2k added to trade-in (my offer was $15k, but they bumped the trade-in value of my Camry up $2k to compensate since that was better for them then adjusting the price down $2k), and at the end of the year I should qualify for the $4k used EV tax rebate (I have the paperwork), so ideally it's an $11k purchase.
Small, cheap electric cars are the best! Fun to drive, easy to maintain. I own an VW eUP 2015 model which costed me €4000 used. I do not know if they where for sale outside of Norway (I only see them here!), but it is the perfect car for 95% of our mobility needs.
I drive it to work every day (where I can charge it for free). I drive it to Oslo and can park/charge almost anywhere around town for really cheap, about €3/h, which is nothing compared to regular parking, which is usually ~€16/h.
I drive it to the Netherlands, about ~950km in two days, without a hint of range anxiety, thanks to abetterrouteplanner.com. Sure, I'm averaging 85km/h, and have to take a ~10min stop every ~2 hours to charge, but that is a welcome pause to visit the toilet or grab a bite.
I had to change a bearing that was getting noisy after 10 years of use, and it cost me €50 in parts and half an hour changing it. I was worried it was going to be a complicated affair, not having done it before, but it was as easy as changing a tire.
Oh, and there is physical buttons for everything! There is a little display that controls the music and shows consumption stats, but it is entirely optional and can be removed completely.
The battery has hardly degraded at all. I'm keeping this thing for as long as I possibly can, it is the perfect car!
I thought I was crazy.
Every other month I drive 800km with my Opel Corsa-e, it takes me 10-12 hours and 4 charging stops.
This is 2 hours more than what my friends and relatives manage with their ICE car.
And since I have a child, I've been doing it in 2 days. Allows me to spend half a day packing, spend the other half in the car on the way to a hotel, and the next day I can be with the family for lunch. Kid is also not sitting tied to the seat a full day this way.
But I admit it is getting a bit much, and since I can't charge at home, I'm not getting the financial advantage either, so it's lots of travel time + hotel, and all the gain I get is that I love my car and don't want to switch back :D
Driving 950km with an e-up: I totally believe you that it's fine, but I'm sure I would be eyeing for a slight upgrade.
10% mora range isn't worth double the car price, probably. My personal benchmark is a 200km stretch on my way where I cannot reliably charge, and my current car is about the cheapest fully electric, that can do that. Even if I'm driving 90km/h behind trucks in the winter.
But good in you, nevertheless!
Ice car drivers love to make us feel miserable for the extra time and inconvenience, but it's a package deal, and overall the inconvenience is relatively easy to mitigate by smart planning, thinking outside the box.
And now I want an e-up for my wife :D
I got my son a 2022 e-UP! as his first car when he passed his test - it's a RIDICULOUSLY fun car to drive, feels much faster than it is and is very direct handling wise.
It's a fantastic city car, and he's even done some longer trips in it.
I've also got an EV6 AWD which is obviously more powerful, and bigger, but nowhere near as fun to drive.
Side note: "City car" should be an oxymoron from the get go, but here we are.
Funny! Here in Cyprus in spite of totally car-centric culture, parking is free almost everywhere or at the very worst, 4 EUR per DAY in a few spots, but even there it's usually possible to find a spot for free.
Sometimes i wonder how our nation works. Low taxes, effectively no poverty among locals (and a foreigner can only be poor if they are an illegal immigrant, otherwise they lose their rights of residence and kicked out), almost no crime, and a budget surplus! And nothing seems to be a ridiculous overcharge: even healthcare is dirt cheap, funded by a really low tax of 2.4-4% if income.
All issues we have seem to be a product of culture/poor education, rather than economical - such as some trash in the streets or very poor quality of building and car maintenance. Also no Schengen but again, only foreigners care about it.
It is called the tax haven premium. Just like Luxemburg or caymen island also works well as nations.
I don't think it is something to be proud of though, as the riches are not earned.
Are you proud of yours? I'm US and I'm not proud of how our taxes are earned and I'm definitely not proud how they're spent.
This is a strawman - but we can play.
You should be proud, but you should also lobby for better spend of the tax money.
Regardless, a well functioning nation should target some level of equality. This does not necesarrily happen through taxes, but taxes have just shown to be incredibly effective.
Regardless of your status, you still suffer from high inequality. If you are poor it is self explanatory. But even rich people need to shield them from ceo killers, use incredibly bad infrastructure, etc.
In that view I do understand why you are not a proud US person - but taxes would likely safe you - like it did in the 60s.
>But even rich people need to shield them from ceo killers, use incredibly bad infrastructure, etc.
CEO killers are not a result of inequality. The only recent example of a CEO killer was a result of being the head of a health insurance company and the motivation was not his comp.
Bad infrastructure is also not a good example. That’s just a result of gov choices on spending.
At least in the US, pulling levers on taxing the middle and upper middle class produces far more revenue than hitting the 0.1%. This is why Democrats nor Republicans will ever provide meaningful cuts for people making $90k-$500k/year.
Inequality causes issues, but infrastructure failures is not one of them.
That's natural, upper class makes money from assets, not from work - it's hard and also probably morally impossible to tax these (do it and they sell and buy assets abroad where assets aren't taxed, and just throw country into shit, leaving generations without pensions and without profits from their consumption). Only something that has no way to run away, can be taxed. Labor is that thing: for all the bad things about America, you have to build walls to keep people out not keep them in.
Infrastructure was an example of a common good that rich and poor people use alike - not something that necessarily is fixed with equality.
Thinking about taxes in terms of producing revenue completely misses the point. Taxes in this context is a tool for increasing equality.
As for the ceo killings, if not the US increases equality, we will likely only see more of that behavior going forward.
The ceo killing was not a result of inequality. Both the assailant and the CEO were rich and the motivation was entirely the nature of health insurance as an industry.
So given that the only recent CEO killing was not a result of inequality, what evidence do you have to support the notion than increased inequality would increase CEO killings?
If you can offer companies a lower tax than other jurisdictions with the same level of service, why isn't it earned?
Because paying lower taxes is not a productive activity. It is quite plain a simple. It is an extractive activity.
In particular, the taxes being paid in these jurisdictions are not earned in them - which makes it even worse.
Wait paying lower taxes is extractive?
Yep, when it is paper money being transferred from other jurisdictions with the sole purpose of reducing the tax bill.
Thisnis not rocket science? Why all the lobbying?
Exactly my thought. It is not based on 'ability to hide money from taxation' or anything like that. Just in lower corporate tax rate (even then, it's lower still in Bulgaria and Hungary and yet those countries don't have much to show for that). Also we have tax exemption on dividend income for individuals, but again, plenty of countries have that, it's more of a norm than an exception (no country could hope to attract any high middle class or rich immigrants unless it provides that, it's a baseline expectation).
And selling golden passports to Russian oligarchs until 2020.
> is usually ~€16/h
Holy HELL that is crazy. I thought £5/hr in London was crazy.
It's more of an incentive to walk, take public transport, and free cities as much as possible of cars.
Isn't it also a way to keep outsiders out? If 30 mins by car becomes 1h30 by train+bus combinations, lots of people are effectively pushed out of even wanting to go to the city centre for meeting friends or having a family walk around.
You say it keeps outsider out. Let’s not forget people living there already, if you build a car dependant city around them they often get pushed out or have to live through car hell. Not a lot of car dependant city have a thriving and livable downtown, in fact I would love to see which city is having a good quality life in their center while making it easy for cars to come in and out to the suburbs.
Given how things are being consciously designed (via policies and/or lack of political action), the "people living there already" are just those rich enough to not have yet felt pushed out due to the housing crisis (but give them time). That maybe would be just life, but on the other hand you have lots of other policies that also favor centralization of job creation, development, cultural and entertainment opportunities, etc. So what gives? it's all a big contradiction (not economically, but socially)
If you want to fight the housing crisis decentralization would be a big win. So if the city is hostile, why not set up outside of it? People already in the city can commute to you; people not already in the city can move outside the city and the surrounding areas can grow over time.
If there are professionals willing to pay continually-higher portions of their salary to live in the city regardless of who they displace then why can't we find ways to build new areas they want to live in? In some places there is a huge weather or natural-feature draw that will always prop up demand, but in others there isn't. There's just a lack of imagination and effort.
> why can't we find ways to build new areas they want to live in?
Because people want to live their lives today, while what you propose takes decades and must be a process worked on by Town Halls, not "the people". And no, it's not the same. The Town Hall of rich people who didn't yet have the need to leave, is dominated by rich people who didn't yet have the need to leave, not the people who is more affected by the excessive centralization.
There's no way "30 min by car" is a thing unless you bulldoze the entirety of Central London and replace it with freeways and parking lots. It's always a red herring.
Cars are simply not viable past a certain density. It's silly (misleading at worst) to take a distance (say 40km) and a speed (say 80kph) and just claim the journey by car takes 30mins, ignoring everything else!
Trains + metro + bikes are the only way to make the journey you describe viable (and comfortable and fast).
That's based on real world times in the european capital I live in. Also the original point was for a city like Oslo.
I can confirm. I live on the outskirts of Oslo, and it is substantially faster for me to drive in the city center, Rather than take public transit. Cheaper too! Although parking is paid for by my job, if it wasn’t, public transit would be cheaper, depending on how long I parked.
Why would 30 minutes by car become 1.30 hours by public transport.
My (European) experience is the opposite: it takes longer to go to work by car, you're sitting in traffic whereas subways and trains take a fraction of the time as they are not impacted at all.
I live in Rome, which isn't known for great public transport. Yet I've seen multiple times people going from Rome suburbs to Naples downtown (a completely different region, 150 miles away) than it took me by car to do 7 miles.
Even cities with decent public transport have neighborhoods that aren't great for this.
I live in Munich and yet going by car is often the fastest, and only during rush hour it's worse. I generally use my bike though, which is so-so. If was 5min by foot from the subway station (and not 15) it would change drastically.
Also I mean it's not terrible, but 30-45 minutes to get somewhere by public transport is the norm. 5min to the bus stop, bus to the subway, subway then is quick. And by car this is often faster, also more reliable, and no walking in the rain.
> Why would 30 minutes by car become 1.30 hours by public transport.
My city has "great" public transport. It's been appraised multiple times, which I guess means that average public transport must be worse than what I've grown up with. I take 20 mins by car from home (in an outer neighborhood) to my workplace (in a central area), 55 mins otherwise. When you consider roundtrips, it adds up (and if we add a middle stop coming out from work to somewhere else for some shopping, the time counting goes out the roof).
The 30 mins vs 1h30 comparison was assuming a trip from a nearby dormitory city 25 kms away, which is the minimum (insisting: minimum) distance everyone nowadays is being pushed out in order to being able to buy any home at a reasonable price. For example: where my parents live to my work is further away 30 Km: that's 30 min by car and 1h10 by p.t., but that outer city had reasonable prices 15 years ago, not today, so nowadays you would go live somewhere farther than that.
I find that typically people talk about public transport benefits from the perspective of being able to buy a home within the centre that is well connected. Yeah, the subway is great here if you live in a 10 Km radius, but talking about it is out of scope for most.
How praised the public transport of your city is irrelevant. What matters is how close/connected you are to it, and it to your workplace.
Trains don't have stop lights nor traffic. They don't care about rush hour. They are always going to be the fastest connection to a city center.
I live 4 minutes by foot from the Colonna Galleria train station, in a village 30 kilometers outside Rome, Italy. The train to Termini (Rome central station) takes 28 minutes, and Termini is the crossway of the 2 main metro lines and the most important city bus lines.
It's 33 minutes at night with empty streets and it's 1:15 at rush hour. Leaving work at 5:30 can easily cost you 2 hours in your car.
But sure, put me 3 miles from the train station, put my office in a place that is just 10/15 more inconvenient from metro/termini and it's drammatically different.
> Leaving work at 5:30 can easily cost you 2 hours in your car.
Woah yeah that changes the calculations, I had a similar situation before, andof course I preferred the subway by far. But you know, it depends. I work late into the evening and when getting out of the office, the streets are empty. So it's a hard sell for me to use a transport option that will cost me 1 hour of my already short free time before bed. But everyone's situation is different, that's why I am in favor of keeping all options open.
Unfortunately, America exported our car-privileging planning and policies, so those places that accepted our "expertise" buffed car travel as much as possible - traffic catches up, of course, but that's when the nerfs to public transit come in. It can be a number of strategies come to bear, including poor access to transit nodes, long wait times between service, and disruptions (American trains often have to wait for commercial traffic on rails). I can't speak for London, but if you're unfortunate enough to not live close to certain Washington, DC Metro stops, you're limited to driving to and parking at them, or to commuter options. Both are not ideal, timewise, but save you parking costs and sitting in traffic behind the wheel.
It took me 10 minutes to get from Liverpool Station to Paddington via the Elizabeth Line. Last year, I took a taxi, as the Line was on strike. That took maybe 30 minutes, or maybe the driver was just driving aimlessly around to push up the bill.
The London subway system is just wonderful.
The newer parts aren't all that bad. It's taken a while for us to catch up with other cities with properly functioning trains, for example...
So cars and their use are entirely American inventions now? That's some new levels of American Exceptionalism...
£5/hr sounds pretty cheap for London. You can pay an awful lot more than that for parking in some areas!
Where are you parking for £5/hr in London? It’s more than that in Edinburgh these days
Ah yeah it's been a few years. Seems more like £9/HR in Mayfair etc
Out of zone 1 it can be done though I believe
Try downtown Manhattan.
As to the GP, it’s refreshing to hear about a reliable VW. Most folks I know, that own VWs, complain about reliability.
But they still love their cars. I’ve never driven a VW, but, apparently, they handle quite well.
I had the VW e-golf a while, and it was a super car. Never had any problems with it. Sold it to buy a VW Multivan (I think it's marketed as California in the US?) which also was a great car, but it was over 10 years old so obviously had a few relatively minor issues, but all in all happy with it.
California is basically the Camping variant of the earlier t3 and nowadays multivan (t7). It has a big history and used different frames (t4-t5) in the past. But it’s not a us thing. The first version was really close to a us only Model tough.
I paid over $50 USD for parking a bit over two hours in Cambridge Massachusetts when visiting MIT. Parking in the Boston area is atrocious.
Why should parking be easy or cheap in urban Cambridge? (For those unaware, MIT is just a short bridge across a river from Boston.) You should take the subway (metro) or bus. There are many non-driving options for the able-bodied.
I was driving from outside of Boston. Parking near subway was atrocious as well.
Alewife parking and the T in?
> I paid over $50 USD for parking a bit over two hours in Cambridge Massachusetts when visiting MIT. Parking in the Boston area is atrocious.
The two are related. The whole point of charging for parking is to leverage scarcity to convince people to not make the problem worse and just find alternatives to driving to the doorstop that work well for them.
Don't forget the opportunity cost. Urban land is extremely valuable, so if you're using it for car parking instead of shop, restaurants, homes, or offices you're missing out on a lot of potential income.
This goes doubly so for all the additional roads you need to get the cars to their parking spots.
> Don't forget the opportunity cost. Urban land is extremely valuable, so if you're using it for car parking instead of shop, restaurants, homes, or offices you're missing out on a lot of potential income.
Indeed, and to build upon your comment, how entitled can some people be to expect they can just take over random ~10m² spots in a property you do not own and expect that to be ok? It isn't. Those spots ain't yours, and I would love to not have to come across your car.
Take over as in rent for a fee? Nobody mentioned free.
Are you against renting homes, hotel rooms etc too? Do you object to the vast spaces that hotels occupy?
And if it's public property, well, we all pay taxes and could argue it's collectively owned. Why would it be entitlement?
I could say public transport advocates are entitled expecting taxes to pay for vastly expensive public transport infrastructure projects
They are against free or very cheap parking in an urban environment.
If you talk of taxes, then yes, you can argue against tax payers subsiding free parking for people living outside that city
In Tokyo there are parking garages that are a multistory cylinder. The car is driven onto a platform in the center, which is an elevator that goes up, and turns like a railroad turntable so the car lines up with a parking spot arranged like spokes on a wheel.
It's one way to put a lot of cars in a small space. Much of the space in a conventional parking garage is lost to the driveways.
No, the pojnt of charging for parking, is for a company somewhere to make a fat, juicy profit. The company would prefer more people drive, and therefore, need to park.
It can be both, though. People who own land and build parking lots and structures on it will charge however much they can, based on what people will actually pay. If parking is more scarce, and the demand is there (as in, it's a popular place to visit), they'll be able to charge more.
And sometimes city councils restrict the amount of parking that can be built because they want to create that scarcity to encourage people to take transit instead of driving, because they know that the owners of the (fewer) parking areas will charge more, making it less desirable to drive and park.
Wow. Look at the downvotes. Yet almost every parking lot is privately owned, and many cities have even sold management of street parking to private companies.
Do people seriously think that these companies want to charge more, for environmental reasons? Of course not. They care only for profit.
https://news.wttw.com/2025/05/21/final-tally-chicago-taxpaye...
The parent says that the reason the price is high, is because someone is trying to up the price for environmental reasons. What proof have they for this? I'd really like a citation, because instead I see almost all parking being profit based.
If someone is saying it's for environmental reasons, likely they're lying to make more profit.
the city decides things like street parking, minimum parking space requirements, or if you can put up a parking lot, thus deciding the total amount of available space. actual operation of the parking spaces can be offloaded to private entities.
if less space is allocated, it becomes more expensive (scarcity), driving down car use. this is an easy case of pricing in environment and external impacts.
Yes, that can happen. Then another city council gets in, and wants more parking.
The post I replied to said "The whole point of charging for parking" was to force people to, essentially, drive less. This is saying it's the only reason people charge for parking. Clearly not so.
And there is artificial scarcity too. I've seen cities where one company owned almost all the parking lots. In that situation, they controlled pricing entirely.
I've seen a lot more of "doing it for profit", including the city doing it for profit, than for environmental reasons.
That's doesn't mean I support this position or not. Describing reality as it stands is important, one cannot effect change one way or the other, without understanding what is.
> If someone is saying it's for environmental reasons, likely they're lying to make more profit.
And they lie because they get vilified otherwise by people who can't stand the idea that they make a profit.
BTW, whenever someone gives you a reason why they do something, odds are pretty good that you're given the palatable plausible reason, not the actual unflattering one.
"The answer is always 'It's the money.'" — Tony Kornheiser
Most of the time, sure. But sometimes it's to save face.
They probably use the profits to pay PR firms to tell us all that high parking charges are saving the planet
It’s expensive to provide parking and in a place like Cambridge. They’ve already stuffed cars in every available nook and cranny.
Did you think they should just let you park in Cambridge Common, Harvard Yard or the Charles River park? Why park at all— just stop your car in the middle of the street.
The T is atrocious. Parking is simply expensive.
Luckily the Boston area is relatively (very, by US standards) easy to get around without a car :)
What range are you getting in winter at 85km/h?
Currently trying to get rid of our petrol car but knowing realistic range up front is rough. I'm fine with driving slower.
It really depends on just how cold it is outside and how much (or little) heat you are comfortable with inside. For mild winter weather (+5 to -5°C) and 18°C in the cabin, the range drops to around 80km or so. On a sunny summer day, I can easily get about 130km on Norwegian country roads, probably more.
When driving to the Netherlands in the months between March and October, the consumption has been around 8.3kW/100km. The car is light and has little tech that consumes power.
Since the car has no heat pump, heating the cabin has a noticable impact on range during cold winter days.
That said, it is a really good car to drive in the winter as the cabin gets warm in no-time and the windows in the front and back are heated and melts away thick ice in about a minute, even in really cold weahter! When doing normal commutes, the shorter range does not matter at all. But I would probably not drive to the Netherlands in -10°C during the winter!
Most EV buyers would probably stay far away from cars with 80-130km range.
Going 900km with that is pretty bold. I wouldn't want to..
But driving around town, this is perfect.
Yeah, me included, until we where going to NL and suddenly was left with no other option becuase our diesel car broke down.
I expected a nerve wreaking trip with the eUP, but got slightly more confident after some planning. Using abetterrouteplanner.com and a charging card from elli.eco, I could drop by almost any charging station and avoid apps or paying with a credit card.
Denmark, Germany and the Netherlands is flush with chargers, so a range of ~130 is actually more than enough.
After the first trip was a success, we have repeated the trip up and down several times, and will take the same trip this October. And by success, I mean a very respectable Wife Approval Factor and a pleasant trip all-around.
The only real downside I have found is that after the 7th or 8th charge, the battery start to get hot, and since there is no cooling the charging time drops from ~10 minutes to more like 18 minutes. But that usually only happens at the last one or two stops.
I know this is far outside the norm and I plan to get another used electric car with some more range at some point, but I'm in no hurry. Having tried what I thought to be almost impossible, I was surprised to find how painfree it actually was.
The e-UP is most definitely a "city" car - which for most european commuters is more than enough range-wise.
The absolutely worst efficiency I've experienced was 2.7km/kWh at 120km/h in DS3 e-tense. That was a v1 Stellantis drivetrain, without a heat pump. Peugeot e208, Corsa-e, etc. are the same thing. Stellantis sucks at EVs, especially their first gen, so that's probably really the worst case scenario (apart from EV's nemesis: towing non-aerodynamic trailers at high speeds).
So if you take an EV's battery size in kWh and multiply it by 2.7, that's the worst range you will get in km.
In normal weather EVs get 5-7km per kWh.
We get 190 miles of range in winter at highway speeds if we are careful. 2019 Chevy Bolt EV with a factory-new battery from 2021.
It was $20k used.
We also have a 2014 BMW i3 with a worn-out battery. This was designed for ~50 miles between charging, or you could get the one with a little petrol engine as a "range extender". Mine can only do about 40 miles in winter. Later models doubled that, and most i3 cars on the road do 1.5x what I'm getting. But I got it used for $5000...
Currently in the process of obtaining vw eup, I'm little bit nervous if I'm not doing a mistake but this thread gave me some comfidence. Thanks
I miss my 2019 Chevy Bolt. Zippy and nimble. Didn't feel heavy like the Tesla I rented. Plenty of range for the city.
What Tesla did you rent? The base Model 3's curb weight is 3,552lbs. The first generation Bolt's curb weight is slightly heavier, at 3,563lbs. The long range Model 3 is 3,817lbs and the Performance model is 4,048lbs, but those tend not to be rentals.
And the cheapest Model 3 will have significantly more acceleration than the Bolt. Maybe the rental's acceleration was set to comfort mode. That reduces pedal responsiveness.
I didn't own a Bolt, but I did drive one and found it underwhelming. It had bad software, charged slowly, and then all of them were recalled due to battery fires. I don't seem to be alone in this opinion, as their depreciation has been pretty rough compared to other EVs from the same time period.
Agree! We got a used 2015 Fiat 500e for $8k 2.5 years ago and it’s been great as an around-town car. Don’t have kids, but can take a passenger or two in the back if need be (it’s tight) but for two people and errands, it’s been a fantastic value.
Just got a 2014 500e for $5k - 50k miles. What a great city car! We also have Model Y, and so the Fiat's 2 pedal driving, lack of good regen, multi-step lock/unlock process can all be forgiven for the price.
waiting for an electric Fiat Panda to be old enough.
need a mini electric car with high clearance and surprisingly there aren't that many.
(need a tall car as I live in rural area and am driving on many dirt roads )
Dacia Spring has a higher clearance. I think it's also the cheapest EV currently (new).
didn't know it had a high clearance. I'll look into it thanks!
Oh hell yeah! I'd love one of these. My other vehicle is a 4WD VW Vanagon Syncro, for fun & hauling.
How many do you intend to drive at the same time?
> which is nothing compared to regular parking
Such advantages will disappear as EVs become more common. Lots of stuff, like super-fast home charging stations or EV using HOV lanes, cannot scale as EVs become a majority. Enjoy the special treatment while it lasts.
Electric vehicles are the norm in Norway, and has been for many years. And you are right, advantages like driving in the bus/taxi lane is abolished during rush ours. The charging and parking provided by the municipality is only getting better however, and prices stay low.
Why wouldn’t fast home charging scale? Presumably, homeowners are doing their own installations.
> Why wouldn’t fast home charging scale?
Because current grids are not setup for 10,000-watt chargers in every home and/or parking spot. Just think of trying to provide chargers in an apartment complex, one to each apartment. The power requirements become crazy very quickly. This parallels the issues with rental car companies trying to charge dozens of cars at once, such as at airports. Our grid standards never conceived of such loads becoming commonplace. Whereas today when every EV owner just expects their home charger to be available 24/7, if everyone had an EV some sort of rationing/scheduling would be necessary
Some parts of Canada have already seen this with heat pumps. People were encouraged to switch from natural gas to electric heat pumps. But incentives have been withdrawn as power spikes during cold weather challenge local grids, especially when there is no wind/solar power available locally (think cold winter mornings in the midwest/prairies.)
I always set my eUP to the lowest charging speed at 5A, which is less than many household appliances. No need for quicker charging if I get home in the evening and leave with a full, or close to full battery in the morning.
The rate doesn't actually matter. Over time and with a large pool of users it all averages out. Whether you charge fast or slow, your EV still consumes the same number of watts per day/week/month to cover your driving. (5A is about 600 watts, which is like having a space heater running: Not a small load.)
The wattage matters a great deal to the grid! If a whole neighborhood charges at max speed, that can become a problem. Here in Norway, you can get a discount on your electric bill if you let the grid operator adjust the charging speed at peak hours to help them balance load, and I guess frequency. A sensible approach.
600W is not much, that is an average gaming computer running a somewhat demanding game. Nerds all over the world have this as a multi hour nightly ritual. I choose to charge my car now and then instead :P
It's about cheaper parking for EV.
It exists now as an incentive to buy EVs, but as EV become more popular it's bound to disappear.
Yes - I misread the parent comment. Didn’t realize they were referring to subsidized installation of home chargers.
eUp sounds like the ideal name for a car built in Yorkshire.
No doubt running on milky tea.
spark.bg uses recent eUPs heavily! It's the first car listed at https://spark.bg/en/electric-cars/ .
Why is it so cheap to park your car and not others?
When you use a charging station, you pay for the power you consume, but not for "parking".
This usually means you can't stay for a particularly long time.
Correct, but the time you can stay is surprisingly generous in Oslo, between 3 and 24 hours, depending on location. I used to dread driving to Oslo, but after I discovered that the municipality had repurposed an old bunker to fit hundreads of chargers/parking spost dead in the middle of town, I visit with gleeful joy :P
Here is a map of all charging points provided by the municipality around Oslo: https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/2053e5d9f24c48c487e...
I see on that map, that on my last visit to Oslo I could have parked 20m from my hotel entrance for €10 over night, instead of parking in the garage 50m further away for €120. Didn't really need to charge, so just went for a normal spot.
I wish we had the brains to do this in Aussie cities
Not in Trondheim. You pay one fee for the parking and another for the charging.
Part of it is likely because Norway has done a lot to encourage the use of EVs. I wouldn't be surprised if this were part of this system. There have been things like tax breaks, not paying for tolls, and allowing people to drive in taxi/bus lanes. I'm not entirely sure about the extent: I haven't driven since I moved to Norway. This is all in addition to building out infrastructure - it is far easier to get around with an electric car now than it was when I moved 10 years ago.
This program isn't the same throughout Norway, though. In Trondheim, it looks like you pay for parking and then you pay for the charging separately so you really aren't parking for free. (Private parking might vary, and sometimes city parking is free).
> Lack of standards: For 'L3' DC Fast Charging, the Leaf has a CHAdeMO port. Teslas and many newer EVs have NACS. Then there's CCS1 and CCS2. And charging stations are run by multiple vendors with multiple apps and payment methods. It's not like gas stations, like with Shell, BP, Buckee's, etc. where you just drive up, stick the gas nozzle in your tank, and squeeze.
Afaik in Europe, CCS2 is the standard (and mandatory these days), when I rented an EV a few weeks back there was no location which didn’t have it. And all the spots I tried charging at except Tesla accepted card payment (though there were a pair of times it was a struggle getting a card to work).
Apps / memberships will get you cheaper prices but that’s about all I saw (and I didn’t bother with any of it).
TBH the only things that annoyed me were implementation issues of the car (a polestar 4) as well as how overly wide it is. And that the rental company (AVIS) does not provide an AC adapter, so I was not able to charge at any wallplug even though I had the opportunity to charge the car at least twice over in all (I will likely purchase one if that remains their policy and I rent more EVs).
All this is modulo it being summer and a pretty long range model so range anxiety was present but reasonably limited.
Anyone who follows Jeff will know he's US-based, but I still really felt he could've highlighted that fact more in that charging port standards section.
The fact that both J1772 & CCS2 are 100% universal in Europe is huge. So much so even Tesla switched to CCS2. This doesn't help Jeff but certainly one less problem for many readers of his article.
> The fact that both J1772 & CCS2 are 100% universal in Europe is huge.
Funnily enough, not for the Leaf! Though it will be on the third generation that's coming out this year. The second-gen Leaf (a ten year old design, at this point) that the author of the article bought doesn't have it. The EU only mandates CCS2 in _charging points_; manufacturers can still sell cars without it, though I think Nissan may be the only remaining one who _does_.
> The EU only mandates CCS2 in _charging points_
Right but that’s the most important one. If you have a leaf it means you know you need an adapter always, so while it’s a bit of a hassle to waste space on that there’s no question whether you’ll get a compatible charging plug.
Euro Leaf owner here. No CCS is indeed tiresome, but not a deal breaker. Chademo is still widely available - I haven't bothered buying an adapter.
It depends on your location.
In my country chademo is rarely available, I know only two networks that provide it (and they are smaller ones).
Sorry for being pedantic, but since this thread is full of pedantry...
Europe actually doesn't use J1772 either. They use type 2 mennekes which has an additional AC conductor relative to US J1772 and CCS1.
I was more referring to J1772. We don't have NACS in Europe so if you have J1772 you can always charge anywhere.
This does mean Jeff's Leaf would be limited to AC without an adapter, which isn't perfectly ideal, but still better.
The form factor of NACS is the old Tesla plug from before the EU mandated Tesla switch to CCS2. So there is still some "NACS" in Europe, kind of, but it is mostly phased out I hear.
In North America it's attempt at a CCS plug was awful and ugly and so much worse than CCS2 and made J17772 almost look preferable. The marketplace winner (by almost a landslide) was Tesla's plug and NACS is CCS protocols over Tesla plugs. All of the car companies at this point are mostly agreed that NACS is the present and future in North America.
I have a 2nd gen 2019 Leaf in Europe and it came with Type 2 and another one I've never ever used which looks like J1772, both next to each other in the front of the car. No CCS2 here, indeed.
I was under the impression Type 2 was the only European standard.
It's IEC 62196-2 Type 2 (Mennekes) and CCS2 in Europe. J1772 is the North American standard that is used in CCS1.
> Anyone who follows Jeff will know he's US-based
That was obvious from the article but given they specifically mentioned CCS2 bundled with the mess that is US charging I thought important to point that (anecdotally) the situations are quite distinct. Both in terms of charging hardware and payment.
Yeah, the US is in the slow market-based processes of standardizing towards NACS (which is CCS2 protocols over what used to be just Tesla's plug). It's not as standard as the EU has committed to, but with Tesla's charging network having a big first mover advantage in North America, it sometimes feels close.
Go to your local Mitsubishi dealership in Europe and you will find the 2025 Outlander PHEV with a CHAdeMO plug. And I believe if you buy a pre-2019 Tesla Model S or Model X, you will have to deal with Tesla's own plug.
I'm guessing it skirts regulations by being a PHEV, since CCS2 is mandatory for DCFC otherwise. Skirting regulations is quite fitting for a PHEV, of course, as that is their raison d'etre.
the regulations mandate the CCS2 on the charging point, not on the car
The outgoing Nissan Leaf also has CHAdeMO and that's a full BEV.
I assume that's grandfathered in by being originally homologated in 2010.
The incoming Leaf has CCS2
> And that the rental company (AVIS) does not provide an AC adapter
Here in Norway, new EVs are no longer allowed to be sold with AC adapters, due to the potential fire hazard. At least that's the reason I got when I purchased my current EV.
Perhaps a EU thing, wouldn't surprise me.
This surprises me, given that almost every country has safer electric plugs than the US. Heat is a function of current and car chargers limit themselves to less than the current the plug is rated for. "Less than" equals 80% in the US.
It might be that the average euro is less aware of continuous draw limitations since there’s so much more power normally (compared to US residential power).
Could also be that for historical reasons you could have a house wired for 10 or 13 A and not be aware if it.
‘Course you can manage that by having the chargers limit themselves to 8A default (or even always), at 1800W that’s a very slow trickle but it’s something, and even if it does not fully cover your commute it spaces out carger stops or helps condition the battery on cold mornings.
Standard circuits are either 8A or 10A.
That's a little more power than a US 15A, or the same as a US 20A.
There is often 3 phase power to the home in Europe, however. That allows 415V phase to phase and also 3-phase synchronous motors.
> Standard circuits are either 8A or 10A.
Both type E and F plugs are rated for 16, and afaik that’s generally the rating in countries which use them.
I’m sure there are others but Switzerland is the only country I know of in Europe were plugs are limited to 10 and you have to hard-wire 16.
Most camping places in France/spain that do have cee or type e/f might limit to 6a/10a. Fyi. It’s mostly to limit power draw since you pay a flat fee.
My mistake extrapolating from the Swiss :)
Dunno if it's the case here, but the charger doesn't know if it's plugged into an extension cord that isn't rated for 3kW or whatever EU plugs put out
IMO it should be illegal to sell an unfused extension-cord. That would solve like 95% of the issues that get blamed on extension cords.
This is the case in the UK, another win for our bulky plug socket
You can fit a fuse in the body of a NEMA 1-15 connector; outdoor Christmas lights, for example do this.
Concern over people using extension cords or splitters is a frequently cited reason, like in this news article[1].
[1]: https://www.ba.no/lader-du-elbilen-din-i-stikkontakt-det-bor...
Might be - also, in the UK at least where most houses are on a TN-C-S electric supply (earth and neutral are the same conductor) if there's a break on the neutral and you don't have an earthing rod (PEN fault) the car can be at high voltage compared to true earth, and you can get a lethal shock if you touch it. There are roughly 500 of these faults a year across the UK.
Level 2 chargers here either need PEN fault protection built in, or you need a correctly sized earthing rod installed.
This seems like the kind of regulation that causes more harm than it saves in anyone's house actually burning down. I did a cursory search and didn't find any EU reports of a house fire caused by a L1 charger.
Sure you might burn a house down if you find one that has a plug which isn't correctly installed with loose connectors but the fire risk here wasn't the EV. Its the incorrectly installed wiring.
You don't tell people to get rid of their fridges because some people might have forgetten to plug theirs in and therefore they could get food poisoning from spoiled food inside.
It could also lead to people buying cheap, potentially defective chargers online instead of getting a more reliable manufacturer-included one.
I haven't been able to find concrete stories either, though these[1] statistics might be an indication. It shows there's a few EVs per year that lead to a building fire, though sadly nothing further about source. So could be something else like battery.
That said there's been a campaign for several years trying to get rid of sockets for high current or permanent installations. I recently replaced both an electric water heater and mini split AC, and in both cases the previous appliance had used a socket and that was not allowed anymore.
Could well be they're just being proactive.
[1]: https://brannstatistikk.no/search?searchId=6EB5433C-AC28-4F6...
I really like the AU tri-prong system for this - high-current plugs/sockets have a physically larger ground connector.
This means you can put a low-current plug (small ground pin) into a high-current socket (large ground slot), but not the other way around.
Only downside I've found so far is that you can't use a high-current-rated extension cord to plug a low-current appliance into a low-current socket.
We’re not talking about high current anything, we’re talking about standard mains electricity.
By “high” I mean plugs rated for 240v16A, which is higher than normal Australian sockets (usually 8A).
In most of Europe high current would be 32A, 16A is generally the standard (though I know Switzerland uses 10A and I believe UK plugs are rated for 13).
There has been plenty of local news about minor fires caused by EV charging in recent years. Usually neither the house nor the car burn to the ground, so won't make national news.
Typical cause seems to be old, worn-out installations or improperly done installations.
Perhaps 999/1000 outlets being able to function safely at rated longterm maximum draw (when there is no obviously visible damage) used to be an acceptable ratio. Doing anything close to maximum draw for long periods and unsupervised was less common.
With EV-charging becoming more common the old standard is no longer good enough. There is too little margin for error and too high likelihood of a situation where error leads to damage.
It is a Norway thing, I read it some time ago that they forbid chargin using AC adapters.
Tesla on the other hand doesn't include AC adapter in newly sold cars (since about a year).
norway is in the EU? did i miss something?
Norway is not in the EU but like Switzerland they copy a lot of sensible legislation.
Well you missed the earlier response[1] where I address this.
TL/DR: no but kinda yes
[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45143835
Norway is not in the EU.
As a Norwegian I am well aware of that. However, we're part of the European Economic Area[1], and as such import a lot of EU regulation and standards. Mostly because we're required per the EEA terms, but also because some of those make sense.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area
I can confirm that, here in Greece, everything is CCS2. There are also CHAdeMO ports here and there, but I don't know what car uses those.
However, I haven't seen a station that takes card yet (or they don't advertise it). They all have their own app, which is inconvenient and a hassle.
> but I don't know what car uses those
It is exactly this kind of Nissan Leaf. Japanese older generation cars. Enough around to still be available, but I think it is slowly disappearing. After that only 6kW (32A/single phase) charging will be available for these cars.
There are fast charging adapters from CCS2 (and CCS1) to CHAdeMO:
https://www.electway-charger.com/CCS2_to_CHAdeMO_adapter.htm...
Quite pricey though. That one is $1000 on Alibaba.
The problem is the CCS and CHAdeMO is different protocols so an adapter has to be an active adapter.
With CCS to CHAdeMO you need something to power the active electronics in the adapter. I've heard of some that do this by having a cable and plug on the adapter that plug into the car's 12 V port. I've heard of others that have a battery in the adapter.
Compare to adapters between NACS and CCS. NACS and CCS do use the same protocol. They just have a different pinout. The adapters are passive and so can be a lot cheaper.
I also rented a Jeep Avenger EV a few weeks back in the UK, several smaller, out of the way vendors still required their specific App and where contactless payments were an option it more expensive at around 80 to 90 pence per KWH. A week into the hire I found I could use my Tesla app and the supercharger network to charge my rental and the max there is only 51 pence per KWH and the supercharger network is expansive just works. An EV is a good option for the UK if you prefer automatics or EV's I will certainly hire one again.
It's funny he mentions Buc-ees, as on the last couple of road trips with my non-Tesla EV buc-ees was a common charging stop where it was just pull up, plug in, and tap my credit card.
In fact, I haven't had to use an app for a DCFC in several years. They either work with plug and charge or take payment directly on the dispenser.
I understand how the US and EU have different electrical outlets, voltages and frequencies. The systems developed independently, standardized on compatible versions locally, and standardizing globally would be very expensive and almost impossible to do safely.
I don't understand how North America and Europe settled on different EV charging plugs.
Three-phase power is ubiquitous in Europe, my oven and stove are connected to it yet this is a small apartment. The slightly larger plug (to fit the extra pins) and extra cables are worthwhile for the higher power and balanced consumption.
CCS1/2 (DC Fast charging) and J1772 (AC "Slow" charging) share a port on most cars. That is, the CCS plug uses the entire plug and the J1772 part uses just the upper portion of the plug.
The AC "slow" charging in the US only needs to support two-phase power (residential power is two phase) and the EU (and others?) generally need to support three-phase power.
NACS is just better in North America (versus CCS1) because it's smaller and much easier to physically handle, but the AC "slow" charging pinning only supports two phase power.
I don't know how it is in the US but there is no one standard charging port here in Europe.
CCS2 is mandatory in europe
I don't drive a RV, I just charge my campers batteries sometimes. I have 3 different connector cables from the common connectors I found in Switzerland, France and Italy only.
Are you talking about shore power? Because that has nothing to do with EV charging.
No.
Then what are you talking about?
We are talking about electric vehicle charging, as in, cars that have electric motors and are powered by a battery.
In my area according to Google maps I see J1772, CCS1, CCS2, Typ 2, CHAdeMO, NACS next to schuko (landline) (in Austria right now).
As said not all stations provide all the standards, not every station has CCS2, hence why I carry multiple cable adapters. That's all I know really. As said I don't drive an electric car.
It's still unclear what you are talking about. Either way, the point still stands, all legal charging station in the EU have CCS cables.
Google Maps is misleading, as two of those are not approved in Europe, and two others are synonyms.
I think you confused everyone by saying RV instead of EV previously.
It's not a lack of standards, it was an early proliferation of standards.
Chademo is still standard in Japan.
Also, given his comparison to the ease of the old way, in Europe at least it's fairly standard to know someone who has filled their hire car with diesel (or not diesel) by mistake. They have warning stickers on the filler flap because it happens so often.
Meanwhile knowing someone who uses the inexplicably more expensive premium fuel option also offered is maybe rarer.
Maybe EV-owning car reviewers should counter the FUD by pretending to be confused by these, always using the most expensive one in price comparisons and then breaking the car completely by using the wrong one during their test drive, like the many propaganda pieces put out about EVs.
A big difference is that if you go to a gas station you’ll have both (and possibly more). At least in Europe. So while you need to fill with the right fuel unless the pump is broken or the tanks are empty the fuel you need will be available.
In the US, if you roll up to a random charging station you may or may not find a plug matching your car’s port.
I think the common mistake they’re alluding to is Europe and north America having conflicting standards for colour-coding the pumps. So here green is unleaded and black is diesel, which can catch American tourists unaware. (Especially so with language barriers, “sans plomb” in French is not intuitively petrol/gas/benzo)
As someone who has gone on many EV road trips over the years, I've never had an issue of rolling into a random charging station and not having the right kind of plug. All I've had to do is avoid Tesla stations, all the other brands have worked with my car. And now that I got a Tesla DC adapter that I keep in my trunk, I can do fast charging at a decent chunk of the Tesla stations.
NACS should help change that eventually (hopefully on the sooner side of eventually), as it wins the marketplace and chargers get slowly updated.
You can’t easily/accidentally fill a petrol car with diesel. The diesel nozzle is too wide. Other way around is easier. But this is the drawback of ancient standards grandfathered in over a century. EVs don’t have this legacy to carry around.
In many countries charging a car in a wallplug is a fire hazard (they are not rated for the heat).
This doesn't make sense. Wall plugs (like circuit breakers) are designed for a particular max amperage draw. If I have a 10A 120V circuit and wall plug, I can't charge my car at 8A?
I have wall ovens that connect via a 50A circuit. Do I need to worry about fire hazards when I bake something for hours and hours?
Not an electrician, consult a real one for any actual electrical work or questions.
It's complicated. Heat builds up over time. So for example your standard 15 amp breaker on a 14 gauge wire in the US is rated for 15 amps of intermittent use, but if you draw that continuously without letting the heat dissipate it becomes a fire hazard. IIRC circuits are generally rated for ~80% of their max load for continuous use, so that 15 amp circuit is considered good for 12 continuous. Or in your 10 amp example 8 should be ok.
Your oven and circuit should be sized such that your long cooks aren't a concern, if you look at it's label you'll probably find it has a max draw of well below 50amps, but if you have actual doubts ask a professional.
Also not an electrician.
A concern for high current outlets in the US, such as NEMA 14-50, is that they weren't necessarily designed for a large number of plug/unplug cycles. Typically you'd plug your stove in and leave it there for years to decades.
If you use the same 14-50 outlet for car charging, which is not uncommon, the contacts can lose their grip over time. End users may want to take their mobile EVSE with them and incur cycles on the outlet. Properly installed but worn 14-50s have been known to melt or even catch fire under these conditions.
End users should prefer to have their EVSE(s) hardwired or installed with a higher grade outlet like Hubbell or Bryant.
Having charged 2 EVs on wall sockets for years, I've not seen them go over 12 amps, so that checks out.
One of those was a leaf
i'm always surprised how people here downvote correct information. This is 100% correct because heat in electrical wiring is a function of power (current) and time. The vast majority of electrical devices in a typical home use under 80% of their rated power. The few that do use their full power, like a resistive heater, often do not run continuously.
In contrast, it is completely normal to charge an EV at a socket's maximum power for over ten hours straight. This time component is why charging EVs from a regular AC outlet can be a fire risk.
FWIW, oven/range circuits are notoriously overspecified.
Code in the US is 220V/50A. Your wall oven will get the same, despite having a much lower max draw than the usual oven/cooktop combination.
50A (upgraded from 30A several years ago) is specified for having the oven plus all cooktop elements ON. Maximum instantaneous draw will be below 50A. There's also the standard 20% headroom allotment, and some additional safety margin to account for the heat generated by all of the above being ON (or high duty cycle) for an extended period.
https://aminacharging.com/articles/can-i-charge-my-car-in-a-...
That still didn't explain anything. Surely the car could limit itself to 80% of standard socket rated output for continuous draw, like they do in other countries. Are Norwegian outlets commonly installed so far below spec that that will cause them to catch fire? What was the impetus for this regulation?
I don’t know exactly for Norway as that was the best English article I could find. A standard danish outlet (they are crap) is 16A but is not rated for more than 6A if the load is continuous for more than 2 hours.
Then use a 6A charger? Assuming it's 2x the voltage of the US that's the same power as a 12A charger would be in the US, and I get plenty of charging at 16A (which is the maximum continuous load on a 20A circuit)
Source?
I have a dryer outlet that caught fire charging our little i3. I'm not sure why GP said "some countries" -- I'm in the US. The heat warped the plastic just enough to bridge one leg of the power socket to ground. It got pretty melty before the house breaker stopped things.
The torched outlet was installed specifically to charge prior homeowner's EV and was only 3 years old.
I moved to an EV-rated 50A outlet which can handle the duty cycle. We have charged two EVs off of it and so far so good. It has a cute little green logo on it and costs 5x as much as a typical NEMA plug. :) Weighs about 5x as much too and grips the grizzl-e plug very tightly and with much larger contact areas.
I'm a believer.
What was the specific connector for that "dryer outlet"? Was it an L6-30 30A receptacle that was constantly getting nearly 30A of load, or a cheaply made 14-50 outlet?
The youtube channel 'State of Charge' has a number of videos talking about cheap connectors and/or lower spec connectors catching fire. Happens even on setups where people had a dedicated level 2 ev charger outlet (NEMA 14-50 , aka dryer outlet) but the installer used a connector not rated for enough current. See https://youtu.be/fzgxKChqjtc to start.
One needs to do one or possibly a combination of:
- Set the pin setting on a home charger for a lower current output. Theres also portable chargers with programmable current limiting, which I find more flexible.
- Replace with a better outlet/wiring setup. Many advocate for a hardwired setup over using an outlet.
> NEMA 14-50 , aka dryer outlet
The reason why I was asking for the outlet is precisely because "dryer outlet" can mean a lot of different things. Dryers in the US usually don't even come with cords out of the box because people may have a few different plugs. Does it have a neutral? Is it 30A or 50A? All possibilities for a "dryer outlet".
https://aminacharging.com/articles/can-i-charge-my-car-in-a-...
> And since your car needs so much power stored in its battery to drive, it will probably pull more power than any other electrical appliance in your home.
Probably? No, it pulls less than my dryer which runs at 240V15A I think but also just the same as my 1500W space heater. You can totally control how much power the charger should draw.
> With that much power, there’s a risk of overheating and fire. Unlike a dedicated EV charger, a socket is simply not equipped to handle the amount of electricity needed to charge a car battery.
Wrong assumption leads to wrong conclusion. Any charger you can physically plug in will work in a house that's wired up to standard.
Your dryer will load the socket for far less time than a car charger and will probably not use 15A for the entire drying cycle.
It’s the long charge time that leads to heat buildup, not the max amp.
Where I am from standard outlets can deliver 16A but are not rated for more than 6A if the load is longer than 2 hours.
Here it's 15A and the charger itself actually tops out at 12A as is common. Perhaps that being common is how to avoid fires. I'm actually not sure now if that's a law or just best practice here.
How can you write "I bought the cheapest EV" in the blog title, and have a section called "Why buy Leaf?" followed by a one-liner zinger aphorism "Price." without writing... the price you bought your used Nissan Leaf for? Someone might want to reference how much it cost back in 2025 a few years down the road.
$17k minus an extra $2k added to my Camry's trade-in value, and it's eligible for the $4k used vehicle EV tax rebate at the end of the year. So out the door $15k with 36k miles and 94% doh battery, I was satisfied with the deal.
At the end of the tax year I'll have paid $11k for the car, effectively.
I tacked on the price of the CHAdeMO adapter mentally to the price I offered, since I knew I'd want it for the one or two regional road trips I take per year.
Re: the tax credit, note the income requirements here:
https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/used-clean-vehicle-cr...
I don't know anything about your situation, but I'm guessing quite a bit of the readers here on HN from the US won't qualify.
>The sale qualifies only if:
>You buy the vehicle from a dealer.
This is such an annoying part of the tax incentive.
It's a huge, pointless gift to car dealers (who need no help) because it means they don't have to compete for price with private sellers or buyers. If I have a used EV to sell, I basically have to sell to the dealer because no buyer wants to bother buying from me when they can get the same thing from a dealer with a $4k tax credit on top.
KeySavvy is the normal workaround for this. $99 extra cost to both sides for them to handle the title verification and shipping, and to act as the dealer to make it qualify for EV credits.
Wow, great tip! Thanks!
Maybe the car dealers have had a lobbyist that has influenced this to their favor. Wouldn't surprise me. But likewise, there's some formality and paperwork trails that exist when a dealership is involved vs. private party, so I wonder if the concern is some fraud or abuse in the private market as well. Regardless, I agree with you.
Car dealers are a well-known, hugely influential lobby.
Given that, probably lobbyist influence then more than anything.
Not to mention there are severe income limits on the rebate
Right, set too low (imho). And not a graduated phase out either. And the market for these cars are going to be people typically past the income limit. My instinct tells me that people below the income limit ($75K/$150K) probably aren't really in the market for an EV. They are probably just trying to keep their regular gas vehicle running. An EV is almost a second/third car for a lot of people, commuters trying to offset their gasoline costs.
Individual tax credits/deductions shouldn't have income limits / phaseout at all. We get the progressive taxation on the front end, with marginal tax brackets.
Totally agreed. But unfortunately, they often do.
My YouTube (mostly now) income is a fraction of what I used to make as a software architect—I'm well within the limits these days :)
What's your channel :)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCR-DXc1voovS8nhAvccRZhg
Jeff Geerling. Also the owner/author of the site we're discussing in this thread.
Jeff is a treasure! https://youtube.com/@jeffgeerling
> I'll have paid $11k for the car, effectively.
No you have not. You have paid $11k + a whole working car to get that one. I also can get a new iPhone every year "for only $500" if you consider the real price being "only $500 plus a year-old perfectly-working iPhone"
His trade-in car was a long way from "year-old perfectly-working".
Looking at $13k (which excludes his $2k trade-in), I'm left wondering if my own conditions are favorable for switching to EV.
The iPhone example was just to make it more obvious, but the logic still applies. It's 13k at best, not 11k
I think you are misreading?
> $17k minus an extra $2k added to my Camry's trade-in value
This says the dealer paid a premium for the Camry to secure the deal on the Leaf. The Camry's full trade-in value was not given.
Right, my initial statement applies: it's not "just $11k", it's a lot more.
How I read it, the deal could have been something like $5k (+$2k) for the trade-in car and $10k in cash. Later there is a $4k used EV tax rebate.
In this situation the cost works out to something like
5k + 10k - 4k = 11k
The deals on used electric vehicles are pretty shocking.
Used Chevy Volts are actually more expensive now than they were a few years back, at least on the CarMax website. Maybe a higher price because they were discontinued but I used to love my Volt. Averaged 150mpg over 3 years.
During COVID lockdowns I got on a plane to San Diego and bought a 2013 Volt with 100k miles for $5500. It had warranty until 2023 and 150k miles (I didn't use it though). I have spent Zero dollars on repairs and I'm up to 207k miles. Favorite car ever.
Still can’t believe they stopped making them.
For another data point... I purchased a used 2011 Leaf for $5k a few years ago and still use it as my daily driver. It gets between ~50-70 miles per change and charges incredibly slow, but I'm been happy with it.
kind of nuts since a used tesla is within 5k of this
You could get a whole other car for 5k
BMW i3 are going for about the same.
and they're an absolute -nightmare- to maintain.... even with that being the case i still want one because russ hannaman had a point- everyone loves a car with doors that open like this \[]/ not like this =[]=
My 2017 i3 REX is just fine. It needs new tires before winter hits, an alignment (it gets knocked way out really easily, especially if you've ever taken it on a less than perfect road. Washington State has many such roads), and I should probably proactively do an oil change on the REX. Oh, and drivers seat heater has a short so doesn't work (the fix from BMW would be prohibitively expensive, but I may try a DIY re-wire).
Otherwise, this car is as close to a perfect daily driver I've ever owned. I hope it lasts forever: not a single touchscreen, no OTA updates, decent battery range (and DC Fast Charging at 60kW+), gas engine to fall back on (with OBD-II programming you can enable Hold State of Charge on the NA models allowing you to truly treat the i3 as a proper series-hybrid and not just an emergency limp-along range extender that will crap out going up a hill in the cold), comfy seats, and did I mention NO TOUCHSCREENS and NO OTA UPDATES?
I haven’t had the alignment problem and our roads are probably worse than yours. Potholes, gravel, dirt, mountain switchbacks, etc.
I found that America’s Tires charges $200 less per set than the dealership, but I get steering wheel vibration at around 75-80mph. With dealership install, there’s no vibration up till the electronic limiter hits at 93mph. I’m not sure if handling the same and sounding the same at 65 and 93 mph is a feature or a bug though. :-)
This is the only car that they couldn’t align + balance prop Our local mechanic gets the balance to work up to about 85mph. Maybe have the dealership fix the alignment?
We know some people with an old leaf. On certain points in their commute the ADAS emergency brakes every single day. It’s particularly bad if someone is tailgating them as they approach that spot, though it can’t be good for the tires either.
Used i3’s are going for way under $17K these days, fwiw. I was actually shopping for a used leaf, and ended up with an i3.
I just took mine on a fairly long trip, around 370 miles. I used the hold charge feature once the battery reached 75%. It was fun to drive through a hilly region, the battery got me up the hill, then the engine plus regen charged it back up to the set point on the way down the hill. I liked that I didn't have to touch the brakes.
The fuel tank is quite small, but it doesn't take long to fill.
Overall fuel consumption was around 6-8 gallons for the trip.
The i3 has suicide doors, the i8 is the one with three comma doors.
Sho you right
Not to be rude but I'm surprised you qualified for the tax credit...
Could've bought Model 3 for this and spend $300 for third party buttons. It has software thats actually somewhat hackable and car is far more capable. But I understand it's hard to recommend Tesla these days lol.
Ignoring any PR or political motivations, I’d argue the Leaf is a better choice for many people. I’m biased as I have one, quite similar, but let me give a pros from my perspective:
- a traditional car feeling, knobs, buttons, the way cars have been for decades prior
- very very reliable. basically never needs anything except wiper fluid. no software updates or crashing. I don’t have stats but might be one of most reliable cars
- compact and easy to park
- compatible with comma.ai
- LeafSpy diagnostics to monitor it
- nice hatchback format with fold down rear seats
- ~220 mile range is plenty for around town use and trickle charge overnight
Overall I’m very happy with it and while constantly tempted by Teslas I think I wouldn’t like them as much.
Also CarPlay, which was on my shortlist of features I actually cared for in any newer car. Silly of Tesla to not support it out of the box (IMO).
I thought not having Carplay was a dealbreaker, then I tried shopping other brands and they wanted $15 to $25 per month for remote start, so I went with Tesla. Plus Tesla had dash cam recording, which somehow no one else has yet? And of course, don’t have to deal with a stupid dealer with Tesla, just bought sitting on the couch at home.
Anyway, not having CarPlay has not been an issue. Although, it would have been nice to have.
I’m picking up mine today from repairs. Some kids crashed their ute into me and left me fake details (I found them anyway via OSINT). Since I have full video insurance waived excess and going after them.
CarPlay is trash tho. Had a rental again last weekend. It’s core feature - google maps wrapper - is just barely useable. Sure it does other things, but it’s not worth the hassle.
CarPlay is much better than the alternatives.
After dealing with Tesla service, I’d also put having a large and varied dealer network with potential third party service locations as a plus for the Leaf. The word potential is doing a lot of work here - having competitive service options is still an EV issue, IMO. But Tesla service is expensive and difficult to navigate. Texting with a mechanic can work, but a quick 2 min conversation with a person would have saved me multiple headaches. Part of the cost issue may be the ways the cars are built vs the actual shop costs, but parts costs for repair are likely to be higher for a Tesla, even with volume. I suspect getting a Leaf serviced should be easier/cheaper.
Tesla parts are notoriously cheap and you aren’t forced to use Tesla service.
Could also have bought a used Chevy Bolt in this price range, with CCS, ~250mi range, and CarPlay.
For some reason when I charge at public chargers a very common vehicle next to me are those Chevy Bolts. If you’ve never compared them side by side you will be surprised, the Leaf is a MUCH nicer car, the Bolts just look way cheaper and lower quality vehicles.
I also don’t get this CCS drama, I have yet to come across an actual fast charger station that doesn’t have CHAdeMO in addition to the CCS connection. Maybe in my area of midwest all the charger stations were installed during the dual standard being the standard.
The 2026 Bolt moving to the Ultium platform may also improve some of the interior quality (because the battery platform will be cheaper again). It is probably a couple months still before we can easily test drive one to get a good feel, but I am curious to see what they do with the new model, especially because GM is especially returning it to be their cheapest EV.
I drove both before I bought the Bolt. The Leaf does have a nicer interior. While I wouldn't say it's a huge gap, it was noticeable. But the Leaf also felt heavier and more sluggish. In the end, the extra range, the CCS charge port, and the better driving feel (at least to me) made me prefer the Bolt.
I’m wrong about CCS, can’t edit this long after so replying here to myself to clarify.
I’m dumb, of course I always see CHAdeMO because my charger app is set to that for DC fast. Duh … a friend said unset filters and yeah there are more CCS DC fast.
Yeah, in St. Louis metro, I think there are only like 2-3 CHAdeMO chargers, period.
On the trip to Chicago, I only see 4 plugs on the way, and those are all at dealerships... which often have cars parked in front of them, so I can't really rely on those being available :D
I’m looking on the Chargepoint App and I see some CHAdeMO DC Fast in both Springfield and Bloomington. They tend to be in strip mall parking lots near Home Depots and Walmarts.
That said having a CCS adapter working is very interesting and I will be following your experience as I have similar a Leaf to you (2021 SV Plus)
https://github.com/geerlingguy/electric-car/issues/9
I am very happy with my 2021 Leaf. It’s a very solid around town and commute vehicle. Anyone comparing it to Bolts doesn’t understand the Nissan build quality is just much better, Leaf is in a different league of design, refinement, and reliability.
One thing I would recommend is a set of winter wheels and tires if you’re in St Louis.
I’m on the fence about buying a comma.ai Comma 3x to try with it. The ProPILOT Assist built in is pretty helpful on long distance highways and the Comma 3x adds a bunch of interesting capabilities. My hesitation is partially insurance related, I’m not sure what Geico will say about it if you’re in an accident for example when it was engaged.
fwiw I’m confident after reading your post and watching you video you made the right choice for you and your objectives.
The Bolt EV has 100 miles more range and IMO a better interior.
Safety rating and HEPA air filters?
Tesla isn’t excellent with kids in back either.
NHTSA crash ratings for the Bolt are slightly better than the Leaf. I don't know about the HEPA air filters.
You could jump into your local used car listing site and check for yourself.
In here a used 2022 leaf goes for about $20-22K CAD. 2016 models go as low as $8K - those had a range of about 120km when new.
In NZ you can get a Leaf for $1-2k, about 50km range remaining.
50k is equivalent to driving around with a low fuel warning constantly on your dash
That was the norm when I was a student..
Not if your commute is a few miles.
I'm guessing distances in NZ are shorter, or you're only planning to use that vehicle in the urban city core. Here in the US, 50km range barely gets me to the ferry terminal to get into Seattle, and that's assuming 50km is at 55mph rural highway speeds and isn't assuming I'm driving 25mph in the city.
Put otherwise: if the battery is so degraded you only get 30mi/50km range out of it, I see why it's selling for $2000.
Fwiw, electric cars are more efficient the slower you're going because inefficiency mostly comes from air resistance.
Definitely only as a secondary/ runabout car. You’d need a proper one occasionally. Shame car share isn’t well established yet cuz that would be viable alternative.
I skimmed for way to long to realize it's just not in there...
I literally bought the cheapest EV:
400 dollars for a 2012 nissan leaf with 80% battery life and 80k miles (saved from being junked.)
MA taxes and delivery made it about 1k when it was all said and done. Insurance is 400/year.
We fit 3 kid seats in the back and have replaced all our metropolitan rides with the nissan. Ostensibly we are all < 6ft tall otherwise the 3 seats wouldn't work.
Our range is 60 miles in the summer, 50 in the winter. Because of how we use it a regular 15 amp plug works for us. Any long trip is taken with our 2018 honda HRV + Thule.
I've been monitoring the usage of our gas car and financially it makes more sense for us to rent a gas car for our trips rather than pay for the ownership + insurance of our car. The math on yearly ownership of the gas car is:
555 treasury yield when selling the car (15000 * 0.05 on a 30 less 30% taxes), 1200 insurance, 200 yearly maintenance (oil changes, amortized tires...), 375 excise tax, 40 inspection
That's about 2.2k/year or about 4 weeks of rental for an SUV. We're still holding on to the gas car for the impromptu apple picking/beach day/day trip that sets us over the 50 mile radius, but zipcar could fill that void
How'd you find that? If it was being junked, then did you need to make repairs?
is your excise tax really 375? my 2014 honda civic is only $50
Registration is usually far higher with EVs because they aren’t paying into gas taxes that go towards road work.
I wonder how road work is going to be financed once most cars are EVs
Ah you're right, it's 50, I was looking at my 2020 bill
Electric Vehicle Man on Youtube did a review of a 2000 pound second hand Renault Zoe that he picked up a few weeks ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEvwtxGeVpQ
The second hand market for EVs is getting pretty interesting. There are lots of EV owners that are replacing their EVs every few years and because of all the growth over the last 10 years, there are now quite a few fairly nice EVs on the second hand market. Many are typically still under drive train warranty. For example, the model 3 has only been on the market for about eight years and it came with eight years of warranty on the drive train. So, most of the second hand ones would still be under warranty. And most of the EV market only started growing after that. So this is true for many second hand EVs.
And car batteries don't seem to spontaneously stop working right after the warranty expires either. So the risk is fairly low. They'll eventually degrade. But if you can pick up a car for a few thousand and then drive it for another 5-10 years, who cares? The fuel savings alone pay for the car after just a few years. Add the savings on maintenance and you are basically in the plus.
Yeah that was basically my assesment.
I bought a second hand Zoe in the UK mainly because they are so common, which means parts should be still around for a while yet.
the leaf was an option, and I could have bought and upgraded the battery on an old one, but I think on balance the zoe was a better purchase for the same combined price. (for me, your mileage may vary)
In terms of practicality, for where I live (suburban, edge of a large city) it works perfectly well. We also fairly regularly do longer journeys, assuming its not getaway rush hour, charging is fine on motorways and crucially getting better
We bought a VW e-Up here in the UK for the same reason - it shares all non-drivetrain parts with regular Ups so spare parts should be available forever and it's a very easy car to work on. Its easy 120-150 mile range is perfect for day to day use, I just charge it at home overnight. And I actually took it on a trip to the lake district few weeks back, no problem at all - 30 minute stop at a fast charger on the M6 both ways gave me way more juice than needed to get to my destinations. And it has an 8 year warranty on the battery, and VW lets me extend the main warranty for £200 a year, and a service is only due once ever 2 years and costs £90. What's not to like lol.
Don't really follow the secondhand EV market, but it seems to me firsthand buyers are still taking on considerable risk due to the range situation. People who have bought them abroad are sometimes advised to keep the battery between 20%-80-90% full. Following this advice, one person I know told me if they drive like they did their old car they have to recharge after roughly 170 miles, which is super annoying for them if they're driving over 500 miles on a trip. They regret buying the car they bought. When and if there is a sudden jump in range innovation that reaches the entire market and not just flagship brands, I don't see how these cars driven now won't be dead weight or dirt cheap. It seems super risky to keep one of these cars more than a couple of years.
I've driven an EV on 500 mile trips. Getting out and stretching your legs for 20-25 minutes once every three hours isn't "super annoying." If all I did was drive around all day, every day for 500 miles at a stretch, it might be, but not nearly as annoying as routinely driving for 500 miles.
For most people, the vast majority of their driving takes place well within the range of the typical BEV and range anxiety is a total non-issue. The fact is, even accounting for the occasional long trip, I spend less time at charging stations than I did at gas stations when I owned an ICE car, because the vast majority of the time, I just plug the car in at my house and let it do its thing.
>Getting out and stretching your legs for 20-25 minutes once every three hours isn't "super annoying."
Nothing done by choice is annoying obviously. But a lot of people are fine with stretching their legs on a five minute bathroom break. Adding an extra an hour or hour half for unwanted stops due to forced recharging is what annoys them.
> Nothing done by choice is annoying obviously.
Right, so that covers approximately 100% of EV owners.
This is tiring. Not everyone lives in the suburbs with a plug at ground level and getting out and stretching your legs is great when you choose where you do it but not when you do it in the queue for charging...
Maybe its tiring for you. What’s tiring for me is that in every single one of these threads, people bring up the most extreme, outlier situations (500 mile trips) as a cudgel against EVs.
It’s not an outlier for a lot of people in the USA or the western part of Canada.
Citation please. It takes over seven hours to drive 500 miles non-stop at 70mph. I’d love to see a credible source that documents “a lot” of people are routinely driving this far in their personal vehicles.
First, the quote from the parent post is "people bring up the most extreme, outlier situations (500 mile trips) as a cudgel against EVs"
There are plenty of people, myself included, who routinely take trips in excess of 500 miles.
Next weekend I will be visiting family 1100 miles away - I will drive, stay 2 weeks, and then drive back.
I can fill up in about 15 minutes and drive 350 to 400 miles, so, over 1200 miles my total "recharge" time is 45 minutes.
The Leaf gets ~212 minutes and then takes 35 minutes (minimum) to charge to 80%.
To go 1100 miles will take at least 5 stops at 35 minutes each = 165 minutes; realistically, longer because you have to find your charging stations and drive to them; plus that only takes you to 80% instead of 100% (which I get when I fill up with gas) which reduces range. So I am being generous to the Leaf in my estimates.
So for 7.5 hours of actual drive time, I have to add in 2 hours (165 minutes minus 45 = 120 minutes) additional because of the EV. That's adding about 25% more time on the trip.
Lots of people regularly drive 500 miles. The question is, how many drive 500 miles without 15 to 30 minutes of stopping? That I suspect is the small number. Doing so is illegal for commercial drivers in many jurisdictions, for darn good reasons. It's downright dangerous.
As I said before, “citation please.”
You know what's a lot stronger comeback than "citation please"? Doing your own Googling, and then posting the results with a "hah, you're wrong".
I'll keep that in mind.
It seems 90% of people in the US travel for the holidays[0], in europe its around 70% [1], pretty easily searchable. The person you were replying to didn't use the word "routinely", you yourself added that word. It's bad form. If I'm doing 4-5 round trips over 500+ miles a year with a family I for one don't want an added hour, hour half to the trip each way every time. It's a legitimate thing to look at when deciding to buy a car.
[0] https://newsroom.aaa.com/2024/12/year-end-forecast/
[1] https://www.tomtom.com/newsroom/explainers-and-insights/how-...
Without stopping.
EVs (or having a car in general) aren’t for everyone. Or aren’t for everyone yet.
But you’re now talking about the lack of adequate charging infrastructure in an urban setting. That’s a different conversation. It’s a worthy conversation, but not all that related to making 500 mile road trips.
This summer I made two 500 mile trips (round trip each time) to drop off (and pick up) a kid at a summer camp. It was a week long camp, so I drove up and back on two weekends. I drove an electric car up the first time and a hybrid SUV up the second time.
It was fine to do in my electric car. I spent about 5 minutes making sure I had a good charging plan, which turned out to add about 10-15 extra miles to the trip. It wasn’t a problem to stop to charge, and I really wanted to stop to eat and stretch when I needed to charge, so everything worked out well timing wise. The trip in the hybrid was a little faster, but not by much. I still stopped the same number of times regardless of what car I drove.
Note: I would have happily had made the trip in my EV both times, but I had another person with me for the second trip. She hated the seats in my EV, so we took the car with more comfortable interior for the second trip. The trip in the hybrid was “nicer”, but that was because it was a more comfortable car in general, not because of the difference between an EV and hybrid.
I have never been in a queue for charging in my 5 years of ev ownership. This includes 3 long roadtrips (Denmark to southern France so 1800 km to 2200 km each way) during summer vacations.
It's pretty common in California. Even though I was worried about charging on my first EV road trip, I've had an easier time in rural areas with lower EV ownership. Not as many Uber drivers using their freebie Electrify America charging.
Queuing is common at non-Tesla sites in California, Arizona, Nevada, Utah in my experience.
I've been doing EV road trips for four years now and I've never had to queue for a charger.
A recent road trip I went on about a month ago, I pulled up to the place I was planning to charge (an EA station attached to a Walmart, was going to go to the deli for a snack while it charged). It was completely full and seemed like there were a few people waiting. I just drove to another charging location about 2mi away (a 7/11 station I think?) and charged there and had a snack. No big deal.
That's about the closest I've had to queue in the past few years. Other than that, there have usually been multiple open chargers available. And once again that's only when I've road tripped. I've had to waste far more of my life pumping gas in my non-EV than I've spent waiting on charging despite my ICE getting far fewer miles.
Of course if you don't have a plug at home, and have to do all your charging at a station, buying an EV now is not a great idea.
If you do have a plug for charging, which you could have even if you live in an appartment (personal parking spot with a plug at your residence), then you're trading a small inconvenience for another.
Yes during your occasional long trip you'll have to spend 20 minutes charging instead of 5 minutes filling your tank, but when you're around your home doing short trips (most of the time for most people), you no longer have to do the occasional visits to the gas station. You just plug your car at home and be done with it.
> People who have bought them abroad are sometimes advised to keep the battery between 20%-80-90% full.
You want to keep batteries roughly in that range to maximise their lifetime health. That doesn't mean the battery will explode if you do otherwise once in a while e.g. you charge limit the car to 80% for your daily drive and before a big trip you charge to 100%.
Route planners will generally keep you in that band anyway because charging speeds fall off a cliff as charge exceeds 80~90% (depending on the manufacturer's usable % standard), and it's rarely worth wasting 30mn charging to full to save 5~10mn extra at the next stop (the same occurs to a lower extent at very low states of charge, plus you want some spare, so the lower 10% are generally treated as a reserve).
> You want to keep batteries roughly in that range to maximise their lifetime health.
Huh? The car isn't doing that for you? Prius hybrids sure are (the old ones using NiMH batteries tried to keep charge between 40% and 80%).
A hybrid can do that by running the ICE (or not).
An EV can do that how exactly, refusing to run? Mugging the elderly for loose kWh?
No need to get sarcastic. My phone and laptop have this feature.
Wow your phone and laptop have a feature which makes the battery never run out? The wonders never cease.
Well, stopping the car at 40% (20% for Li-ion) capacity or alternatively at 0% with dead batteries, I know what I prefer (ideally there would be an option for emergencies, perhaps disabled in rental cars ;-} .
I keep the car at 20-80% when at home and driving around the city, I charge once a week. Before a trip, I let it charge to 100%, then charge to 80% on the trip (otherwise you waste time on the slow parts of the charge cycle).
It's really not a hassle at all. What's a hassle right now is finding a charger, as there aren't enough fast ones along the trip, but I've had the car for a year and have never needed to do a trip that long yet.
Just to clarify, the hassle is needing mutiple recharges on a longish trip, not urban driving. The regret is due to unmet expectations based on advertised range as opposed to pratical range.
No, I know, I was just kind of detailing the general experience. Urban driving is entirely seamless (I exclusively charge at home), long trips are the only slightly inconvenient bit, but I ~never do those.
I mean the funny thing is that I've never driven or wanted a car with more than a 10-gallon tank, so my "ICE" (it's a Prius, so it actually does better than a full ICE car would) range is already <400 miles. Having to stop at a "gas station" for 30 minutes instead of 10 minutes every 4-6 hours really doesn't seem like that big of an ordeal, especially since I'm probably going to be stopping for meal breaks on that interval anyway. And if you just need a top-off to make the last 100 miles rather than a full charge, you can probably do it in 10-15 minutes anyway, right?
Less than 10-15 minutes in a decent car. Tesla charges at 200kW+ in the lower SoC ranges; that’s approaching 1000 mph.
> recharge after roughly 170 miles ... these cars won't be dead weight or dirt cheap
The average car journey is 8 miles. Being an average with a finite lower limit of 0 it is skewed higher by the people who for various reasons drive long distances.
You don't need a 1,000 mile range to get to the shops at the end of the street. It helps, but not that much.
The magnitude of person-to-person variation makes it tough to get signal out of averages.
I read a blogger say a 40-mile trip is exceptionally log for him, so why worry about EV range?
Meanwhile we put 160 miles on our EV yesterday doing ordinary errands that all got stacked on the same day. 100+ mile days happen a few times a month for us¹.
That 160 miles is 65% of our 0–100 range, or 108% of the 20–80 range. And we have a level 1 charger, so it'll take 26 hours in the driveway to recoup that charge.
¹ In my area a normal daily commute is 30–40 miles round-trip. Throw in some extra errands, or two people sharing a car, and you don't have to be an outlier to routinely have 100+ mile days.
I am not intending this as a backhanded way of suggesting your experience is invalid. I get that it's quite possible in some areas.
However, I think the point of the GP is that the number of people who say this is their typical experience is going to be larger than the number of people for whom it actually is their typical experience.
By that I mean: your story is quite common in discussions like this, both online and offline. Yet, if the mean distance is 8 miles, and we know it's going to be skewed high due to the 0 bound, it can't be all that common.
To be honest, I'd be curious to see the median here.
That's fair. FWIW my city lists the mean commute time as 23.6 minutes, p90 26.6. Travel in my area is dominated by freeway arteries, so 15-ish miles each way is a fair estimate for the mean.
https://raleighnc.gov/planning/services/city-profile
A typical Bay Area commute (e.g. to SJ or San Mateo/Redwood City) is 40+ miles one way. A typical weekend drive (e.g. to Half Moon Bay or Sonoma) is a 100-mile roundtrip.
Still less than 170 miles.
Remember that you would usually charge at home so you start every day with a full battery.
You can screech about averages and means all you want but the fact of the matter is that if you're exceeding your vehicle's capabilities on a weekly or monthly basis the inconvenience of ownership goes up exponentially. I do 100mi/day but I all but need the ability to make that 200 on a weekly basis and am doing a 300 on a monthly basis. With charging at work and home those numbers become 50, 150 and 250 between charges. So a "nicer" electric car is doable in the summer for me but it still falls on its face when those longer trips involve substantial cargo.
So yeah, I'll keep driving rusted out minivans that make people clutch their pearls.
For people who just want a dedicated commuting vehicle used EVs with 80% battery are a pretty good option.
Maybe you're just richer than the average person, that affluence buys you a lot of convenience that others can't access.
It's easy to forget the budget issues faced by many families when you're not facing that constantly yourself, but it's basically an existential consideration for a not insignificant proportion of the population.
You're circa $1700/year more expensive in fuel with your minivan[1] than with a comparably sized EV.
Your 5 hour / 300 mile journey takes around 30 mins more in the EV end to end (time spent stationary at a charger somewhere near the mid point of your route). Equiv of driving at 55mph average vs 60mph average over that time. I'd happily use the time to drink a flask of tea i brought with me and then go for a comfort break.
[1] assuming $4.80/gallon in a 25mpg minivan, vs an inefficient EV that only averages around 2mi/kwh at $0.30/kwh. Obv the 1700 excludes servicing, tyres and depreciation
Meanwhile in Korea: https://driving.ca/auto-news/crashes/hyundai-ioniq-5-666000-...
What is that even supposed to be a rebuttal to? I didn't complain about the longevity of small EVs (they're generally quite good in that regard).
Not to pick on you personally but I think it speaks volumes about the type of people who make up HN community that I can come in here with a fairly narrow and niche critique of a product (inflexibility basically), hedge that comment with a "but it's still good for a lot of people" statement and a bunch of act like I'm dismissing the entire product category and then act like completely tangential things disprove that. It's like I've offended a religion.
> You can screech about averages and means all you want
> So yeah, I'll keep driving rusted out minivans that make people clutch their pearls.
These antagonistic statements are unnecessary and the reason you are being downvoted.
It sounds like you can't find a used minivan-like EV, with 250+mi range. A 2022 model y has 330mi range new (probably around 300mi now). You can get them for $23K after federal rebate. Seems like a good deal that would be "doable" for you.
I mean, I don't disagree with you. But a lot of people have two cars if both adults work and have to drive to work - so it makes perfect sense for the second car to be electric. We have a little VW e-Up with "just" 120-150 miles of range and in day to day use we never get anywhere close to running out. In fact my wife uses it to commute every day and we charge it once a week from a regular plug at home. It saves considerable amount of money over a petrol Polo she had before, to a point where the car pays for itself(almost). But yeah, we also have another car(a PHEV Volvo) that we use for long trips.
> I do 100mi/day
You are an extreme outlier, you should wait until the technology develops further. To use your parlance, no need to screech about people clutching their pearls at you.
Counterintuitively, driving a lot of miles regularly on a daily basis is pretty much ideal for switching to EV as you maximise fuel savings (and minimise pollution if you care about that).
This has different impacts depending on your local gas to electricity price ratio.
It's his weekly and monthly longer trips that complicate matters but in many jurisdictions he'd still be saving enough to make it worthwhile.
I did a 6500 mile ev road trip and battery capacity means next to nothing. All that matters is the charging curve between 3% and 60%. Literally all other variables disappear over a road trip.
Nice tip. Are there lots of cars with shittier ranges but sota 3-60% charging curves? What is your acceptable target number for this metric?
The P3 Charging Index attempts to quantify this, and also documents progress over the years as they've been publishing it for 6 years now:
Porsche Kia Hyundai are currently top of the list
https://www.electrive.com/2024/12/20/p3-charging-index-2024-...
The e-GMP cars (Hyundai Ioniqs, Kia EV6) can do it in 13 minutes or so under ideal conditions. They have decent range but not top of the line.
> When and if there is a sudden jump in range innovation that reaches the entire market and not just flagship brands
I've read/heard about this innovation coming to the market in six months every few weeks for about ten years and it has never materialized. There are continuous, slight and consistent improvements to battery technology which add up over time, but none of the wunderwaffe battery technologies ever materialized into the market and produced any huge jumps.
Always check if that suspiciously cheap second hand EV you're buying had active battery cooling.
A lot of the crap like the early Nissan Leafs didn't. And between that and the first gen EV battery pack design being shit in general, the battery pack just cooks itself. Its capacity falls off a cliff over time. This is where a lot of those early concerns about EV battery packs being hideously expensive consumables was coming from.
If the battery pack is actively cooled, then, as a rule, it ages gracefully. If not? Oh boy.
This is not a general rule and many non-cooled and air-cooled batteries can hold up pretty well. The battery cooling becomes a limiting factor for DC charging, especially if multiple charging sessions are required per trip.
The Leaf limited battery life is mainly to its battery chemistry (LMO), although it arguably doesn't go to great lengths to ensure thermal stability of the pack.
The Leaf has went through many battery changes through out the years. The Gen 2 (2018+ model years) were NMC (532?) and then there was a change again in 2023 (811?).
Big Asterisk on the maintenance though.
For £2,000 the maintenance plan is sending it to the scrap yard.
Gordon Gekko would buy it, break it into its constituent parts and sell them off for £5,000.
Crazy he wouldn't go for a Bolt. I just bought a 2019 Chevy Bolt w/ 11k miles for $14.5k (so a bit over 10k after federal rebate). It has a brand new battery because all the Bolts were recalled for battery issues. Has around 250m range. Feel like I won the lottery. Still plenty of them available https://www.donohooauto.com/searchused.aspx?Make=Chevrolet&M...
I have a lease end coming up and the Bolt/EUV are on my radar, but one significant advantage that Leafs have is that the lower trims can have their head unit swapped out for a nice Pioneer or Sony unit from Crutchfield, just like is possible with many ICE vehicles, which can get you a nicer infotainment experience (including wireless CarPlay/AA) that isn’t encrusted with rent-seeking gunk.
> just like is possible with many ICE vehicles
Many older ICE vehicles, you mean? EVs aren't really special in their use of custom car-bound head units. BMW XDrive is the same XDrive they have in their EVs as they have in their ICEs. Mandatory backup cams is only going to accelerate that.
It’s an unfortunate trend. I’m not sure mandatory backup cameras is really a driving cause, though — the bulk of third party head units have backup cam support out of the box and some even let you add a 360° overhead parking view if you’re willing to drill some holes and wire cameras.
The biggest reason for non-modular infotainment is to push people into subscription services.
The cars hade to come from the factory with backup cams now, then that’s going to open the floodgates to other features where a custom head unit would be useful, since they need one anyways. Unfortunately none of those features are done in a standard way where pioneer or alpine can plug into the car’s bus and somehow manipulate it.
I drive a 2023 Bolt EUV and it has wireless CarPlay. My wife's 2024 Equinox EV has Android Automotive and no CarPlay. We don't have Android phones so I don't know how well an Android phone would work with Android Automotive.
I've been tempted to get a larger car but the Bolt is so much more fun to drive compared to the Equinox.
IIRC my 2019 Bolt had android auto but required the USB cable be plugged-in. My aftermarket, China-special head unit in the old car I've been driving lately has wireless Android Auto and while it's cool, it's still effectively wired due to how quickly it drains my Pixel 8 Pro's battery.
Interesting. CarPlay wireless has very little impact on battery life in my experience, with both a 14 Pro Max and 16 Pro Max.
The Bolt EV supports Android Auto and Carplay, you can get a ~$30 USB dongle to give you wireless.
I was so close to pulling the trigger on one of these except for 3 factors: It's driving assist platform is now deprecated and no longer receiving area expansions (I know many could not care less), it's charging speed is pretty slow by today's norms, and it will likely retain almost no value as time goes on.
> it will likely retain almost no value as time goes on.
If you're buying a car as an investment I have bad news for you...
Sure, but you can buy one for $12k and get almost nothing back, or buy a more modern EV for $25k and maybe get $13k back. In both cases you are losing $12k in a few years, but in one of the cases you get a more modern car.
Get almost nothing back from your $12k used car? Nonsense, you get a larger fraction back, the annual depreciation continuously slows down.
If a 6-year-old Bolt is still worth $14.5k, then an 8- or, say, 12-year-old Bolt isn't worth $0. Most of that depreciation happened in the first year, it's still going to be worth $12k or $9k.
For example, Jeff's 2023 Leaf originally sold for about $30k. Now, just TWO YEARS later, he probably paid $15k to $19k for it. That's a steal! Given he drives his vehicles into the ground, it probably doesn't matter, but if he wanted to sell it in a few years he could still get $10 to $15k from it.
$15k, plus end of year $4k used EV rebate :)
Isn’t that ending soon?
Nah, the newer a car is the faster it deprecates.
Scrap value of a car is several thousand dollars these days. The OP's $12K car is likely going to last > 10 years. A $25k will likely depreciate more $12K in 10 years.
Plus insurance + registration
If you're buying a car as an investment then you're only marginly more foolish than if you're buying a car without considering varying levels of depreciation as part of the running costs.
I have a 2017 Bolt as my only car and the slow L3 charging is definitely a downside, but I haven't found it to be a huge issue in practice. On a trip long enough to worry about fast-charging you're going to need to stop to eat periodically anyway so if you plan your charging around meals you don't end up waiting too long. Obviously gets a bit more annoying on trips that are long enough to require more than one fast-charge per-day, but I don't take trips that long frequently.
Day to day charging is generally all going to be L2 or even L1 depending on how far you drive and how long typically parked somewhere with a plug. That will be roughly the same speed in any car. Some cars do have higher capacity L2 chargers than the Bolt does, but most public L2 stations don't provide the higher current needed to see the difference.
This I think is the key that most non-EV drivers don't recognize. Especially if you own a home, then an EV is really fantastic. You simply plug it in whenever you are home and 99% of the time you spend 0 time waiting for a charge. The slow trickle charge is both cheaper and more convenient because you aren't making trips to a gas station on a weekly/biweekly basis.
Rather than planning your charging around meals, you're more likely going to have to plan your meals around charging. I don't see a lot of restaurants with level 3 chargers in the parking lot.
Are you saying SuperCruise on the Bolt stops working or just that they wont expand existing coverage?
This Bolt EUV car drives so damn good. I was very impressed when I drove it.
The Bose audio is also quite good. After testing several new cars, I learned that Bose audio is not implemented the same across manufacturers. For example Mazda Premium Bose is just plain mediocre.
For the price that you can pay for one, Bolt EUV is an amazing deal. Unfortunately the charge speed is a deal breaker for many. But I never forgot how well it handles.
I really hope these cars last, they are a hidden gem and I think a lot wouldnt care about resale value if that charge speed was a bit better.
The audio really is banging. Everything from dubstep to heavy metal to classical it handles as well as any car audio system will (which is to say garbage compared to even a mediocre home audio setup, but all car audio sucks due to acoustics of being in a car going down a road!)
Sadly I live in a city now so I can't drive down curvy roads away from everyone, windows down blasting beats anymore. :( (I try to be a responsible asshole! :)
"driving assist platform is now deprecated and no longer receiving area expansions"
What driving assist platform? I don't think the older Chevy Bolts have any such thing. At least I'm pretty sure my 2017 doesn't.
IIRC, the EUV had an option for normal adaptive cruise control, but I don't think any ever had a Super Cruise style option
The euv does have a super cruise option, the car next to the one I bought had it. Came into the showroom the day after I signed my paperwork. :(
If you're worried about self driving features, there's always the option of a Comma AI retrofit
Lane keeping works (poorly) but Bolt's automatic cruise control implementation is really good and works in stop and go traffic and at street speeds. I've used ACS systems before that refused to work in both those scenarios.
Charging time for road trips sucks. 99% of my driving is around town. Being a smaller EV it fits city life very well and I just top it off on a 120v plug every night.
I got a 2023 fully loaded with sunroof (except super cruise) for 24k, only had 40 miles on it.
That said the app is horrible and you can see how GM just didn't give a shit all throughout the car. No AC/dog mode. If you shift too fast after turning the car on you have to reboot the car using a secret method that is buried on forums (anyone reading this, don't press break, hold down the power button until the car restarts) and you can only remotely turn climate on to its last setting from the app.
Oh and even if you pay monthly for remote access just checking the charge level through your phone probably won't work (time outs...) and locating your car really won't work.
If you turn on climate remotely, drive somewhere less than 10 minutes away and then get out, you may try to turn climate back on using the app, but that won't work because the app has a really long cool down before it even checks the car to see what the status is so you end up in an invalid state where the app thinks the car is still on even though you just stepped out and turned it off.
Resistive heating means even with Seattle's mild winters I barely have 200 miles of range.
The car isn't smart enough to close the sunroof visor on hot days to keep the car cool.
In general it feels like what it is - a mid 2010s car that was far behind Tesla at the time for thoughtful details (expected given the year and GM) that was sold into the 2020s way after other manufacturers had updated their cars electronics to have common sense features.
That said some details are nice. You can be connected to car play and Android Auto at the same time and designate one of those as primary for apps and navigation but take calls through both. Physical climate controls are appreciated, and the rain sensing wipers actually work well. ;)
The 360 camera is wonderful to have. It cost me $10k vs getting a the base trim car, totally worth it.
I bought it April 2024 and I have some 0 maintenance other than car washes. So damn cheap to own.
In the 16 months I've owned it I've only put on 6k miles and it'll never pay for itself on gas savings , but last car was totalled and I legit enjoyed test driving the EUV more than a Lexus UX 300h that cost a lot more.
So anyways happy with the purchase, great value, horrible for road trips but I do them anyway.
10k for a camera in a car the size of a skittle? I’m glad you enjoy it but I can’t understand what I would need it for.
It is actually the largest car I've ever owned, and if it was up to me it'd be a few inches narrower in the very least. I prefer sub-compacts. As it is I miss my first car, I could squeeze in-between almost any 2 cars and be able to open my door and get out. A bit more clearance in the EUV would be nice, I definitely miss out on some spaces because of the extra width compared to my past cars.
The camera is super useful when parking in narrow spaces in those parking garages where each space is flanked by concrete pillar on both sides (why design it like that? Those pillars are covered in car paint...) or when parallel parking on a one lane road that has cars parked on both sides (always fun!).
There is actually one underground parking garage I have to use occasionally that has a hairpin turn to get out, and the wall is an interesting mish-mash of car paint colors. I've turned on the cameras for that curve as well, absolutely horrible garage and having a top down view really helps out.
> Has around 250m range
250 meters ? but I want to drive off my street....
--1
Well, that's certainly not the cheapest. You can find old Leafs for 5k. People love Bolts, for good reason, and bit them up.
I've seen Leafs for $3k or less. The problem is their battery life is ~10 years max, and replacing the battery costs $5k-$15k. That old leaf may have a 30-50 mile max range.
Don't get me wrong, that would still cover 80% of my daily driving needs, but when I need to drive to the big town for work on a moments notice I may not have time to drive home and swap out for my ICE vehicle.
I have a pre-order in for the Slate, having 150 miles range would cover 99% of my driving needs, so I am not against EVs, just sharing the awareness that battery degradation is a thing to be concerned about.
> The problem is their battery life is ~10 years max
Depends on how you define "life". I think for the Leaf, it's 70% capacity. But even if it gets down to 50%, it'll sill keep driving.
Also, what's really annoying, is that every seller factors in tax credits to their price. So that 3k may really be 5k. I'm actually looking forward to that no longer being possible.
My gf had a leaf when she met me and she couldn’t drive back home in one charge. Worked out great for me.
The fact that the range is so ass means you HAVE to charge to 100% every single time, and 80 to 100 takes ages. She’d spend 45min charging for 45min of driving.
There still are federal rebates?
Until September 30th so better hurry.
Note that many HN residents probably have too much MAGI - do your diligence on that tax credit before assuming you qualify.
The way dealerships roll rebates into their advertised prices is incredibly annoying if you don’t qualify. I kind of wonder if prices aren’t being inflated somewhat by dealers being able to put numbers that are ~$10k lower than reality out there.
I expect to see a severe price drop in both the used and new markets when these credits evaporate.
(Which is what you’d expect - of course free government money will raise prices above where they would be.)
Let's not pretend dealerships (for all their legitimate issues) are solely at fault here. Tesla makes you scroll down to find a light grey small text checked box "Include $7,500 Federal tax credit" that is the default.
There is no MAGI exclusion for the tax credit on leases, FWIW.
what's magi?
My Problem was always the Range Anxiety.
Until I got an EV and realized it's not really an issue. There is always an App for that (and even on my car the software gets improved in that regard).
Infrastructure is getting better, even companies starting to see it as a benefit to have cheap/free chargers at their offices to get people back.
I see more and more electric trucks on the roads. It feels good.
I think until you have one you don't realise quite what having a range of 200+ miles means in practice. You don't actually drive for 500 miles without a break, that is 8-10 hours of constant motorway speed driving and its not safe to drive that long. So when you take 30 - 60 minutes for lunch on a long drive like that and charge the vehicle you are going another 200 miles before again really taking a break. As it stands the breaks will have to be a bit longer than you might like and it could add 30 minutes to your journey but that is about it for most people.
The other part that not a lot of people realise is if your journey is 300 miles and your car does 200 you don't charge another 200 miles into the battery, you charge 100 and then charge at the destination instead. With ICE vehicles if your going to get fuel typically you fuel it to the top but you don't do that with battery cars you want to charge them as little as possible while mid travelling and charge them while they are sat still at home or destination.
Its charging at home that really changes the experience too. The weekly trip to the fuel station disappears, depending on how often you exceed the range of the car you only really get exposed to the charging network and times when doing those journeys, you spend a lot less of your life in fuel stations!
I would add one thing my family has complained about wrt road trip charging is it’s not just the time you wait to charge, it’s the time and games/anger dealing with all the people in line waiting to charge.
And this is with marginal EV adoption. Imagine if it was full scale the headaches that would come. I mean think of the current amount of gas stations around, that would be insufficient to cover EV demand due to the fact EVs need to linger for so much longer. So good bye to whatever in your town needs to be destroyed in order to park more cars and charge them. So much for walkable cities.
It gets exponentially better with bigger adoption, because chargers being in use pay for installation of more chargers (and batteries got cheaper, so charging stations have their own storage and are less limited by the size of their grid connection).
Service stations on my route in the UK went from having 2-3 medium-speed chargers total in 2019 to having 2 rows of 20 high-speed chargers, and another parking doubling that is under construction. The same happened all over Western Europe - grew from a few singular chargers at supermarkets and hotels to many large charging hubs along highways.
Reliability and ease of payment also got better, partly because regulations started requiring it, but also because the stations don't sit idle any more, and it started to matter for revenue.
Also in EU there's enough charger coverage now that there's competition. I don't have to sit in line to the only charger in town, I can drive few miles to the next station.
The big difference between public EV chargers and gas stations: you can put an EV charger anywhere you have electricity, and with far lower space requirements. My city is slowly converting a few street parking spots in busy areas to EV charging, and it takes very little room - I have no complaints as someone who mostly uses sidewalks and bike lanes. Where did you think people were parking their cars in cities before?
Parking garages are also getting EV chargers. My office garage just added a couple dozen, and I don't think it would be hard for them to convert more once the demand shows up.
And I've seen them starting to go in at the little rest stops on the Autobahn that up to now only had unattended toilets; they're being added to the big, nice rest stops with gas stations, too, of course.
I'm not sure how cleanly that is going to scale when each and every charger is going to cost a couple grand to install. Think of all the street parking spots there are, that is an enormous amount of money. In LA county it is estimated there are 3.6 million on street and 15 million off street parking spots as of 2010 (1). Lets assume its 2k for one of these chargers assuming no further upgrades to grid infrastructure that it would just work on existing lines. Unless I fudged the numbers that's $7.2 billion dollars just for the street parking. That would buy a whole lot of bike and bus lanes that cities claim they don't have the funding currently to roll out. Probably make a good dent in rail projects as well.
https://la.streetsblog.org/2015/12/01/18-6-million-spaces-an...
You forgot just one teeny tiny thingy - it's illegal to park ICE car on EV charging spot on the streets, in garages etc. So if the number of EVs grow the number of EV spots would grow which would take more space, not less.
If you take existing parking and make some of it EV charging, it doesn't take up much extra space; the charging equipment does take some space, of course, but sometimes there's room to be found for that.
Depending on EV adoption and how much charging people want/need, you can start with a couple spots that are active charging only, and see what that looks like. If the chargers are always full, consider adding more and/or having several spots for each charger and standards and practices to move your car and the charging plug when yours is full, etc. If the chargers are underused, consider making the spot open when the lot is full, etc.
If the number of EVs grows, ICE will shrink by as much so we can just convert regular parking spots to EV charging spots.
This is very regional, and I suspect is more of a problem for SoCal that most anywhere else. I've been driving EVs since 2019 and I have experienced a line exactly one time.
I would agree, though, that if you do run into a situation where you have to wait, the current system does not deal with it well. They need a better way to fairly manage a queue if it forms.
Admittedly I don't use public chargers often, but I have yet to experience any kind of line.
I had to use public chargers for a while when my house was being worked on and it was pretty miserable. They were frequently broken, and lines were common.
The real problem with public charger lines is that there is no social protocol for them yet. At a gas station, it is fine to pull up behind a car currently fueling to indicate that you would like to fuel at the pump next. Charging stations, however, are not built with pull-through spots. There's no place to form a queue at all, so people park nearby, circle, and sometimes snipe a spot when it isn't their turn (because who can tell whose turn it is?).
I mean, it's not like I've never had to use public chargers. They just didn't have lines when I was there. Also, haven't encountered a broken charger. (Seattle area.)
The thing that actually bothered me the most is needing a different stupid app for every one of the ~5 different networks to pay, instead of just inserting or tapping a credit card. But this is mostly an occasional-user problem; the pain probably falls off dramatically once you've already registered for everything.
Charging at home is a great experience.
I agree with you on the drive time. A buddy of mine has a Model X, and he occasionally will make the 400 mile drive to visit. He stops about halfway to stretch his legs and eat lunch, the same thing he did when he had an ICE powered SUV. The only difference is now the car is charging while he eats.
We drove from Seattle to SF and back on a Model 3, and I would say there were only a couple of situations where I wish we could keep driving instead of recharging. Otherwise almost all breaks for charging aligned with breaks to go to the toilet, eat, walk the dog, or simply have a rest.
Definitely a very minor inconvenience. And, compared with frequent trips to the gas station vs charging at home overnight, a total net positive in time saved (if you want to measure it that way).
I have a 300 mile range EV, and some of my friends also downplay charging on road trips. It seems to be a common narrative. I find it patently false. When I drove long distances in an gas car, I didn't take breaks to stretch my legs. I want to get to my destination earlier and have the driving be done.
I find EV charging on road trips to be annoying, and I can't wait until technology improves to the point where I don't have to worry about missing a charging station and being hosed and I don't have to worry about adding an hour to an hour and a half onto a road trip.
I think that gas vehicles are irresponsible for most uses and the charging at home makes having an EV great, but gas vehicles are better at road trips if only for the fact that those of us who don't want to take longer don't have to.
> that is 8-10 hours of constant motorway speed driving and its not safe to drive that long
[citation needed] considering plenty of people do it all the time (truck drivers)
In Europe, lorry drivers are required to take a 45 minute break after 4.5 hours of driving.
I think having to resort to citing such a niche as truck drivers kinda makes the opposite point fairly well.
Having said that, I've taken lots of road trips in my day and it would be a change up to how they're planned, and I would have some concern about placement / availability. But then that's why, when we bought an EV for the 99% of our family use case we didn't immediately scrap yard our previous cars, which seemed to be what some family members expected when we told them we were considering getting an electric car.
Aren't truck drivers required to take breaks by law?
By Canadian law IIRC it's 30 minutes every 8 hours or so. However it can still be split up to 2x 15 minute breaks, and it's only a break from driving; loading/unloading, inspections, hooking up or unhook, paperwork, etc is counted as as taking a break.
The lower provinces allow up to 13 hours per day of driving and a total 14 hours per day on duty time before you're required to take a 10 hour rest in a single 24 hour period. The northern territories I believe legally allow up to 15 hours driving per day.
That's just what I've read so take it for what it's worth.
is there a term like 'charge anxiety'?
I was debating an electric vehicle in 2023. There are maybe 10 people (out of about 200) at work that have electric cars. My teammate is one of the ten. He wakes up early to get a charger. He tracks down the other owners to ask them to use the charger after lunch. They started a group chat about the chargers.
My local grocery store has a bank of superchargers right in the middle of the parkinglot next to the main road. Some days the bank is full and teslas hang out waiting, but they have to wait half in the road to make sure they're close enough to be next in line.
My apartment complex has 2 chargers, and we get people coming in who don't live in the complex to use them. People wait next to the strangers to be sure to get the charger before walking home for the night.
This kind of social interaction and situations gives me huge anxiety.
I get gas once a week, dont wait in line, always works, don't talk to anyone, and I'm gone in less than 5 minutes.
EV charging is hassle-free if and only if you have a home charger, which typically means you have to own a house as well.
Workplace charging gets extra competitive because it's often free, meaning all sorts of bad behavior is incentivized. It's weird how wound up people with $50,000 cars can get about $5 in free electricity.
If you have a personal parking spot in your residence, you can install a charger there. It will be you own charger.
In France there is a "right to charge", meaning even if you're a tenant the landlord/building manager can't refuse you the installation of a plug. (But you might have to pay for it)
Free workplace charging has always rubbed me the wrong way if the company doesn’t also offer employees free transit passes.
I only got an EV after getting a house for this exact reason. I really like EVs, but I wouldn’t buy one, if I don’t have a convenient place for routine charging.
An apartment complex being built next door offers you to buy a parking lot together with the apartment, and optionally equip it with an EV charger. This is the way.
I have the same issue with a lack of charging at home, and totally identify with what you say here. The lack of an organised queue (could be in the provider's app, rather than a physical one) at oversubscribed charging stations is the worst thing about EV driving for me.
EVs make less sense for people who don't have a dedicated home or work charger. But if you're lucky enough to have one, EVs make a great deal of sense.
Stayed at my parents for a week where we had to use public chargers.
It wasn't great, even if we had no queues and fast chargers 5 minutes away. In some parts of Denmark I suspect charging infrastructure is overbuilt.
But even with good infrastructure, having to drive to a charger and wait 10-15 minutes is a hassle.
Charging at home is the killer feature. You just always have 80% charge by default.
I have driven 20 thousand EV miles in the past year, with 50% of my charging being at public chargers (and 50% at home). I have never needed to wait in line, and have never needed to interact with anyone regarding charging.
Otoh my experience has been that random strangers who are charging EVs are much nicer than the average, and are often quite interesting to talk to. I hadn't expected this.
When I bought my Leaf last year, I actually didn't have range anxiety because I assumed the infrastructure was better than it actually was. But I'm shocked that at most places I drive to don't even have a charging station, and if they do it's like 2 spots that are both full.
And I definitely didn't factor in skiing, my favorite mountain has 4 charging stations in one of the hotel's parking lots.
I've realized this for myself, based on me getting ~350miles from a ICE per tank, and only filling about once ever 3-4 weeks. It's clear that for like 99.99% of my driving miles are easily in EV Range, or even plugin hybrids. Which is why my next car probably will be the later. However at only driving 350 miles per month, plus the occasional road trip, I estimate my current car will last 10 more years or more.
* Limiting the number of QCs (Quick Charges / DC Fast Charge), as this heats up the uncooled Leaf battery, degrading it slightly each time, especially on hotter days
* Keeping the charge between 50-80% when manageable
* Charging up to 100% at least once a month, and letting it 'top off' to rebalance the pack for at least a few hours afterwards
* Not driving like a maniac, despite having more torque in this car than I've ever had in any of my previous cars
This kind of thing (minus the driving like a maniac bit) is what puts me off EVs. I guess it's unavoidable? My experience with laptop and phone batteries (holding much less charge pretty quickly) doesn't help. My phone (iPhone 12) says battery health is at 81% but it doesn't feel like it so I'm not sure I'd trust that Leaf saying it's got 93%.
This is completely avoided and not my experience. This is only because the leaf is not actively cooled. Most ev do not suffer from such difficult management of battery and have a computer dedicated to cool / heat and keep battery in healthy temps.
They do degrade over time but very, very slowly. Absolutely not like phones. Mine has 25k miles and zero degradation yet.
Even then the Leaf stands out with seemingly unusually high battery degradation compared to the uncooled battery competitors from 2014.
A VW e-Up(and its siblings, Skoda Citigo EV and Seat Mii Electric) all have passively cooled batteries but owners don't report much if any battery degradation even on the first gen models which are over 10 years old now. I can only assume it's the battery chemistry or cell composition compared to the Leaf. Our own is 4 years old and I haven't noticed any range loss compared to when it was new.
Could be due to American climate and Leafs getting sold heavily in America. Jeff lives in a place hotter and sunnier than Málaga. Cars can roast in their huge unshaded parking lots with black tarmac.
Not a battery expert, but I did recently look at using old leaf battery cells to build home battery. Their modules are 2s2p which make them impossible to balance.
> Mine has 25k miles and zero degradation yet.
Let me guess - Hyundai? They are notoriously lying about degradation.
Rivian I think it’s eating the extra buffer but that also means that the worse degradation that happens in first year is « free ». Then stats are a few percents per 100k miles…. There are articles about stats on long term degradation - it’s a non issue. Buy used if you can in USA - people perceive them as degraded so price is cheap but they don’t degrade fast
This is, as the title mentions, the cheapest EV. It's really old. It did not have tech that pretty much all EVs have nowadays.
Nowadays you don't have to do this. You can. Just like with your phone or laptop.
> It's really old.
Funny, how 2 years old car is really old. For combustion engines, old is like 15+?
EVs will have the same problems as mobile phones. Maybe manufactures want that. But software will define the age of your car and I don’t like it. What if the car requires internet connection and the company dies?
For practical purposes it is a 15 year old design; it had a minor update 8 years ago, but was not brought up to date with the norms of the time (in particular, the passively cooled battery).
This was the very first mass-market electric car, with only minor tweaks. It's not surprising that it's a bit rough around the edges. That's part of why they're cheap second-hand (along with the fact that the 3rd gen, which actually is a proper redesign, is coming out this year).
I don't think that we can use the general "old" here. The statement should have been more explicit and include the design of the battery.
If the model gets even minor updates, manufacturing is happening right now, the car is either good enough or new enough in general, and we cannot use old as negative quality.
Electric motors existed before the combustion engine, and people keep talking about "rapidly evolving area", while the only thing that is rapidly evolving and specific to EVs is the power source. A battery, to be precise. It is all about battery, and nothing else.
The problems with this car are all around the battery pack (though honestly these problems are a little exaggerated). The battery pack is, for practical purposes, a 15 year old design. This car is no longer made. When it was being made, it was the only electric car you could buy with such an old battery pack design.
Buying a 2nd-gen Leaf in 2025 would be a bit silly, unless you were getting a major discount.
I have a 2025 2nd gen on lease because the deals in Colorado were insane and the previous cost of my gas basically pays for the lease + insurance + electricity. That said, unless they give me a killer deal with a major discount at the end of the lease it's going back to the dealer. I love the car and it's been perfect for around town and the region but with 70% of the lease left they want $18000 for buy out. For that price you're well within a nice used EV with active thermal management, modern charge connectors not requiring an expensive adapter, etc...
There's probably going to be a surplus of off-lease Leafs coming up over the next one to three years which might make a great deal for people who can charge at home.
I got 42% off of the MSRP when buying a new 2025 SV+.
Yeah, I think this is the only way the could sell them, at this point, with the 3rd gen about to come out. Though, where did you even buy it? I vaguely thought they had stopped making them entirely last year in preparation for the third gen (and if I go to Nissan's website it just offers me a third-gen).
Bought it at my local Nissan dealer back in June.
ZE1 Leaf(2017) was electronically a big minor update over ZE0(2010). IIRC so much so that ZE1 battery packs almost work on ZE0 body with only minor hack efforts.
So they're basically 15 years old, technologically older than the Model S. Windows 7 was 1 year old when its basic systems shipped.
To add to what others said: back in 2017 40kWh was the standard, now people scoff at 55kWh. Cars also charge faster, which greatly increases their highway driving potential.
> What if the car requires internet connection and the company dies?
That's not a problem specific to EVs and with Chinese combustion car brands coming and going all the time, it's obvious.
First generation Leaf was launched in 2010 second gen in 2017. That’s quite an old design for any tech that’s still advancing.
It's a 2 years old car, but the model and technology (2nd generation Nissan Leaf) is from 2017, so it's 8 years old in a rapidly evolving field.
Limiting QC events is easy enough. A daily commuter vehicle can easily trickle charge over night, and even the measly 40 kWh old used Leaf can get you 200km a charge - assuming an average commute of 20 km for Germany, that's a whole work week worth of battery life. The only time you as an average person actually "need" QC is for the yearly vacation road trip, but as the author writes, renting an ICE or chungus electric vehicle for that occasion is way more cost effective. Admitted: if you don't have access to trickle charge at either the workplace or your home, the situation looks different.
As for the battery health rating, it's easy enough to measure. Go on the highway, keep it at 80 km/h straight and note how much range you get out of it. In practical commute settings, range will be longer than that anyway due to regenerative braking in all that start-stop-start-stop dance.
This is the thing that ICE people need to internalise.
You THINK you're driving long distances every day and you THINK charging is a massive hassle where you have to drive to a Charging Site and wait for the car to charge for HOURS.
When in reality you plug in at home and have a full battery every morning.
And when the infrastructure is properly built (yay Finland), you can get a week's charge when you're getting groceries as the shop has multiple 100kW chargers along with a fleet of Level 2 (22kW) chargers.
The only times I need to actively think about charging are over 200-250km day trips (my old Ioniq EV has a WLTP of 300km on a warm summer day). And even then the kids an dogs need a bathroom break anyway and I need to walk around a bit to freshen up. 20-30 minutes gets us 100-150km of charge (old car, slow charging) and we're off again.
>> When in reality you plug in at home and have a full battery every morning
Right, but I should buy a house with a garage first.
>> charge when you're getting groceries as the shop has multiple 100kW
Unless you do groceries in unusual time, those chargers are occupied. Will you wait in line then?
You just need an outlet that is close to the car, but it’s mostly an American issue.
We get 230V/16A from a bog standard outlet, three phase is triple that.
I had a leaf on demonstration for 24 hours. I was impressed with it. I drove the 50 miles to work and back, and put it on slow charge knowing I had 16 hours until I needed it. No problem. When I came to drive it in the morning it hadn't charged. It was actually a problem with the plug in the garage, it must have gone off a few minutes after I plugged it in. Now what? Wait 16 more hours?
A couple of weeks later I went on holiday. I wouldn't be able to charge where I was stopping, and there were no chargers within 15 miles. I kept my diesel.
> It was actually a problem with the plug in the garage, it must have gone off a few minutes after I plugged it in. Now what? Wait 16 more hours?
So what, that's something you find out once that your electric installation is shoddy enough to most likely be a fire risk (because the charger plug has a thermal protection built in!), fix it and then you won't have that problem again. And as the Leaf should have 150 miles worth of range, you still should have way more than enough range on the battery to do two days worth of commute even if you suddenly find out the trickle charge didn't work.
50 miles each way...150 miles range turned into 10 miles left. So no.
Renting a car for vacations / road trips is expensive. sure you can but expect to pay $100 per day. Also expect to arrive and be told they can't fill your reservation as they are out of cars.
> Renting a car for vacations / road trips is expensive. sure you can but expect to pay $100 per day.
Indeed... but now, think of the price difference between a small-ish commute EV and a chungus EV or ICE. Easily tens of thousands of dollars, that's a lot of days worth of rent.
> Also expect to arrive and be told they can't fill your reservation as they are out of cars.
That's extremely fucking rare to happen. In the eventuality your reservation can't be filled, you'll usually get upgraded for free. Personally, got upgraded from a small VW Golf class to a VW Phaeton once, plus a day for free. And automatic, no stick shift like the Golf.
Over the life of a car tens of thousands of dollars isn't that hard to build up though if the car cannot do anything. And there is value in having the vehicle that does what you need when the inspiration strikes.
Not having any rental cars is very common in my experience. I'm often renting in smaller cities though (like the rental car place just a couple miles from my house), I've never heard of problems in big tourist destinations or large cities.
There's also the convenience of having the car more appropriate for day-to-day use.
E.g. a family with two cars, where the smaller car is preferred because it's easier to park in the limited space available in a European city.
Seems expensive but in the grand scheme of a road trip that is only like a 33% increase in price when you factor in a motel room for $100 a night, maybe $100 spend on gas a day filling up twice, $100 on three meals coffee and snacks for one. Give or take of course.
That is probably why the american road trip is a dying animal. Past a days drive you are coming way behind just flying straight there.
I thought about this too - own a small electric vehicle for 90% of the family needs and rent a bigger SUV when the need arises.
Until you do the math and realize that the 3-4 annual trips of multiple days would end up costing thousands of dollars in rental fees per year. Plus the usual inconveniences around renting.
Suddenly the math does not look so appealing.
> Until you do the math and realize that the 3-4 annual trips of multiple days would end up costing thousands of dollars in rental fees per year.
First, 3-4 annual multi-day trips that go for longer than 300 km? If one has that amount of disposable income to afford that, go for whatever the biggest Tesla is and use Superchargers along the route, even drives so long they're a safety issue on its own due to fatigue don't get that much longer due to charging because kids will need to go to the toilet every so often even with an ICE.
As for the rental fees: here in Germany, I just checked - a Mercedes Benz Vito, so up to 8 people (or 6 people plus a ton of luggage), that's 50€ a day here. Crossing four digits takes 20 days of rental, that's a lot of vacation time even by European standards.
I'm surprised you consider a 300km trip long, or 3-4 trips in a year excessive. That's only Berlin to Bielefeld. What do you do with your holiday?
The EU minimum is 20 days annual leave per year.
For that kind of distance I take a train, Munich-Dortmund doesn't take that long. As for holidays, Croatia by bus or by night train to get around horrid traffic, extortion level road tolls and dumbass border controls.
No idea what numbers you are crunching. I am doing this for 10 years now and able to afford luxurious cars for holidays because of it.
Those were comporomises Nissan made in 2010s to build an EV that will be under $30k new in 2025. Not all of it are fundamental limitations of Li-ion BEV technology.
Tangential trivia: BYD Dolphin Baseline is 20k new before subsidies in some places.
I don't think about any of this and never have. My 2022 Model Y has 60,000 miles on it and the battery has only lost a negligible amount of health/range since I bought it.
What was the purchase cost difference between a Model Y and a Leaf in 2022?
A lot of this is either over-caution, or related to the Leaf's specific quirks (though it's not uncooled, it's passively cooled by airflow).
My understanding is that 2 & 3 are problems with the original (20kWh) Leaf model. Which possibly led to a rumour about the 40kWh models, that the OP has.
My Leaf from 2019 has 100% battery health and I always charge it to 100%. I almost never use fast charging though since it is a commute kind of car.
Is that the health reported by the car dashboard, or by LeafSpy? The dash has some wiggle room in its 1-10 display an IIRC it will display 100% until the SoH is below like 90%...
Obviously they are reporting the dashboard number. The first bar drops at 85%. For a 2019, it is probably getting close to dropping its first dashboard bar.
After 25 years in the industry I should know that there is always someone that have read more forums and researched more :)
Either way, the car is 6 years old. At this rate the battery will still be pretty fine when it is 15 years old and ready for retirement.
Never charging it above 80% is not worth the hassle. It is like never using your left hand for the fear of hurting your left hand. You are crippling your car by overthinking.
All of those problems are solved in non-leaf cars.
The leaf is a terrible steward if its battery. virtually every other car is better in virtually every single way.
I just checked my phone (an iPhone 11) and it says 72%. There is absolutely no way the capacity is anywhere near 72% anymore lol
The performance/battery life of a phone can be seriously affected by the software (each new iOS being built for newer CPUs), whereas this is less of a factor for cars.
If you think this is what puts you off EVs, then you haven't read the horror stories from EV Clinic.
TL;DR is many EVs and hybrids (especially European ones) have tonnes of design faults with e-motors and power-electronics that not only make them ticking time bombs(not in the explosive sense) out of warranty, but also have malicious DRM making third party parts impossible to source, and repairs difficult and eye watering expensive even if theoretically EVs should be more reliable on paper than ICE cars.
Maybe the EU should focus more on EV/auto repairability regulations instead of smartphones and USB-C widgets.
Luckily EV Clinic is working hard on breaking the DRM and reverse engineering parts to make and sell aftermarket ones, but this shouldn't be needed in the first place if the OEMs weren't so bad at design, greedy and hostile to consumers and aftermarket repairs.
Seriously, we need regulations here ASAP. The free market doesn't work here for the consumer when OEMs all do the same anti consumer things.
The DRM thing unfortunately has nothing to do with EVs and everything to do with the computerization of cars. All cars have gotten more and more computerized and harder to repair with more DRM. EVs arguably fundamentally require heavy computerization more than ICE cars, but you're not gonna avoid it in a brand new diesel car either.
That is why I keep fixing up my old Diesels. No DPF, basic EGR, basic computer, no worries.
That's why I said repair regulations are needed for all cars not just EVs.
The EU did put in regulations, but they did the opposite and essentially mandated DRM. They want to prevent owners from turning off nanny devices or overriding pollution controls.
Can you share what car repairability regulations did the EU put into place? Because following the posts of EV Clinic it seems like the opposite.
I don't think there's disagreement here:
> The EU did put in regulations, but they did the opposite and essentially mandated DRM
is the same statement as:
> following the posts of EV Clinic it seems like [the EU did] the opposite
Where both posts use "the opposite" to mean "the opposite of creating in regulations to enforce repairability" .
Hybrids are a different breed, they're very very bad. Don't ever buy one out of warranty and be REALLY sure what the warranty covers.
FYI: Mercedes Benz hybrids have a full(*) battery warranty. What's the asterisk you ask? The warranty only covers repairs up to the car's current value. Which has plummeted over the few years you've owned it and the cost of the battery is absolutely ridiculous. Like "buy 3 used Leafs" ridiculous.
Most hybrid batteries are also blobs of molten plastic and silicone that can't be repaired at all. EV batteries are constructed of semi-standard cells and can be opened and repaired piecemeal by specialist shops. Official repairs usually just swap the whole thing - again for a massive cost.
> Maybe the EU should focus more on EV/auto repairability regulations instead of smartphones and USB-C widgets.
Maybe they should do both.
I drove a 2015 Nissan Leaf for almost 10 years before upgrading this year to a Model Y.
When it comes to charging network Tesla is SO MUCH BETTER. It's hard to describe how much of a wild west other charging networks are. You have to download this app or that app, add a credit card here, add one there. De-rated charging handles absolutely everywhere.
To be fair, non-Tesla networks are catching up. I moved from Tesla to BMW i4 (I had a quite significant disagreement with Elon when it comes to international politics), and I was worried about finding non-Tesla charges. I took a few long distance trips so far (US Northeast), and I had zero problems. Plus, if you are lucky, you get 2 year free charging from BMW, and they've enabled plug-and-charge recently. So, you just plugin, charge and drive away, mostly for free. Not bad.
which networks/providers are good?
Electrify America is great.
A good one but too little (usually just 2 or maybe 4 handles) and far between. They have a very long way to go.
One thing they did right was require a credit card scanner right on the machine. No app!!!
I wrote this exact comment above. It's just insane when I hear how 3rd party chargers work. And I personally check charger pricing while I'm out and about. at least 30% are broken among the ones I find.
Can't believe it took them 10 years to add CCS1.
Tesla and Apple understand that the charger elegance and design is more important than the strict engineering requirements.
NACS is theoretically a worse charger, but it's more approachable to consumers.
CCS1 is clumsy , heavy and makes the car look like it's attached to an umbilical cord.
That's why they had to dump it.
This is exactly right. It's just too big and clumsy. It's almost always the Pareto principle option that wins if it's easier to use. Because "good enough" is all that matters to most consumers.
CCS1 for others who are curious: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Charging_System
aren't they all dumping it for NACS in North America?
NACS is officially the North American charging standard. Elon projected the name into reality.
that's not cheap. Cheap is the older leafs, which go for $3k.
https://sfbay.craigslist.org/search/cta?auto_make_model=niss...
I bought a 2012 for $7500 in 2016 and drove it for several years.
1. chargers suck. there was evgo, blink, chargepoint. Most locations had 1 or most 2 DC fast chargers, but frequently they didn't work or were busy. Not reliable.
2. range was less that expected, even if you update expectations. It takes engineering to use the range you have, especially taking #1 into account. You don't want to get to a fast charger at 1% then find it doesn't work.
3. the battery health wasn't great, but because the battery capacity/range was less, the number of battery cycles was significantly more. I charged to a higher %, discharged low each day, and cycled daily.
4. the leaf was a perfect "around town" car. Not for trips.
Tesla has basically solved all of this and their cars are usable like a regular car*
* don't be pedantic, in 99% of situations/locations
Here in southern Australia we would endlessly see this one guy with his broken down leaf on the side of the road. If I recall it was one of the very first generation models and they did not handle our summers well at all. To be fair to Nissan a lot of their issues did get resolved in come generations but it was funny to see that, yeah, they didn't do too great on those first few rounds.
As to your Tesla *. I do endless tire of folks who are like "But what if you want to circle the planet!?! Check mate EV dorks!". For 99% of the time they are absolutely fine.
A friend of mine had one as a work car and drove the 940km (580 miles)from Melbourne to Sydney with only a single charge up of $20 half way through, got lunch at the same time. I mean yes if you really stretch it, you could do it on a single tank of fuel on a combustion engine but it would be a tight run. Also to the recharge time, that drive takes about 9 hours if you do not stop. I have never done it in less than 12 hours because you end up having a lot of down time on trips like that. There is plenty of time to charge if needed. Like you say, for the most part these are solved issues.
The charging situation is a fast moving target. Massive expansions since 2016.
Meanwhile Tesla build quality is still mixed bag in 2025. The used ones suffer from previous lapses in QA which is a darn shame. These are cars that could be usable for years but because their mentality of pushing junk out to meet end of quarter numbers, many of these cars won't be able to fulfill their true potential. They are disposable junk even if they drive well.
A while ago I bought an older leaf because I had an expensive commute. Battery was ok when I bought it but it degraded very quickly. Doing my commute in winter with the heater and radio off going 10 under hoping to make it to my job where I could charge it was not fun.
I now own a corolla hybrid and I enjoy cheap commutes without the fear of running out of juice
+1 i was thinking of getting a bolt but it’s not a viable option if you like doing road trips.
either you get 2 cars or a fast charging ev. i chose the latter
> and I found myself with a very short commute, only driving a few miles a day, and a family minivan we use for nearly all the 'driving around the kids' stuff. > > So I wanted a smaller car (get back a foot or so of garage space...) that was also more efficient.
All this to say what he really needs was an electrically assisted bicycle instead of a huge and heavy energy wasting vehicle.
Bike would be amazing if the city I live in weren't a death trap for bikes. I had considered it but I do need a way to get 10-20 miles for things like kids' events or to pick up things from stores for my YT work, at least once or twice a week.
I've transported large stuff with my bike mind you, including furnitures and a small tree (in a trailer) and 20 miles is smaller than my longest commute on my bicycle which was 24miles each way.
And that was without electric assist. When I look at the low average speed and time spent in car when I use one in an urban area, it just doesn't make any sense in most cities.
But the safety issue is another story though. Every time I relocated I took that parameter into account before choosing a new place.
Some cities have seasons. Some cities lack bike infra. Some people don't like bikes.
> they shouldn't do 16 on a 15A circuit but it seems like some do
There are 20A 120V circuits too! Called NEMA 5-20, one of its prongs is rotated. You plug that into a receptacle where one of the slots is T-shaped instead of straight. And it's standard practice for EVs to draw 80% of the maximum current, so 16A it is. I see this plug in larger machines in the office, like a large photocopier or a large vacuum.
I wish I could buy an electric kettle in the US that took advantage of the 20A outlets I have all over my house. Sigh.
Get a Japanese water boiler. They keep the water at boiling in a reservoir, so it's already hot when you want it, no waiting.
Chinese offer this also. My wife just got one a few months ago, I think these are new things.
220V has a real advantage in boiling water fast in traditional kettles though (I used to live in china and they were twice as fast as the ones in America). It is almost worth getting a 220V outlet in a kitchen just to support fast water kettles.
There are an insignificant number of kitchens with unused 220V outlets. 220V was wired in in case the owner wanted to install an electric stove, but a gas stove was installed instead. The problem is that it's in an inconvenient location and running a 220V/30A extension cord beside a stove is a really bad idea.
I was thinking about going from gas to induction in a remodel to cut down on fumes and make cleaning easier, but we have not a 220V to do it, so an electrician will have to fish wires up to the kitchen if we go that far. We would also install a speed oven at the same time, so that’s another 220V outlet, what would be one more on the counter for a kettle?
I've been eyeing a battery-backed induction stove for my next remodel. The point is that it can charge itself on a regular 120V outlet while producing as much as 10kW output, far more than a plug-in stove. Something like https://copperhome.com/products/charlie or https://www.impulselabs.com/
Just noticed i typo'd significant as insignificant. Totally changed the comment!
Japanese water boilers have been around for decades by this point. As far as 220 V being faster, absolutely, but a Zojirushi is like $150 and an electrician far more.
They have the kettles that continuously heat now, as long as they detect water in the pot, it will cone on periodically to keep the water just below boiling. These are 120V though.
They are quite inefficient (yes, even the vacuum insulated ones) and the Zojirushi one has plastic inside the lid that disintegrates if you always keep the water on the high temperature setting. That means plasticizer from melted plastic in your drinking water.
You'd be better off buying a British kettle and using that on a 6-15 socket, if your goal is to boil water quicker.
I'd do that if I had two convenient hots for 240v going into my kitchen, but I don't. What I do have is a 20A 120v circuit.
I just have a special tap at my kitchen sink that dispenses water at 195F. I cannot imagine waiting for a kettle. One of the most satisfying kitchen purchases I've ever made for a whopping $200.
Legaly kitchen and garrages need 20 amp circuits but they allow nema 5-15 outlets there.
Most older homes (like mine) only had 5-15, so over time I've added a couple 20A circuits with the horizontal blade outlets.
EV's look like EV's because they don't have the same constraints on space that ICEV's do. There is no engine in the front/back, no water pump, no oil pump, no water cooled radiator, no starter motor... so on so on. There's also a great big battery under the floor pan and no gas tank.
They are also heavier, so need different set ups in order to handle decently.
But, that's why they look so different.
They tend to handle better than ICE cars due to the low centre of mass (also the fact the big mass - the battery - is firmly bolted to the frame and not wobbling around on rubber mounts like an engine does). These are both big advantages in terms of dynamics. Couple that with the much faster powertrain response and many options to do torque vectoring to each wheel (individual motors on sports models) and it's an easy win for EVs. Then we get to the potential for fan-assisted downforce (e.g. McMurtry Spéirling) and it's even more blatant. ICEs are still better at endurance, though.
People way overstate the "dynamics" advantages of EVs
Yes EVs can keep their weight low, but it's a lot more weight to deal with.
Yes EVs have excellent 0-60, but that's just because they have a great launch. Even doing a 5-60 pull removes the EV advantage. Starting from highway speeds? EVs start to look real slow.
There are some good traits to EVs but, outside of launching hard in street car trim, performance is not one of them.
I find highway acceleration is their main strength actually. Going from "just cruising" to max acceleration is basically instant, unlike a gearbox having to go down 2-3 gears (depending on how hard you press the pedal) and hope it chose the right gear, or manually downshifting (block shifts work with a proper manual gearbox but that's a pain the rest of the time; going down 3 gears sequentially on an automatic is usually not a good time).
> People way overstate the "dynamics" advantages of EVs
It is noticeable, though.
> Yes EVs can keep their weight low, but it's a lot more weight to deal with.
Define a lot? It's a few hundred pounds, excepting pickups.
> Starting from highway speeds? EVs start to look real slow.
Maybe a Leaf or a Bolt. But I would be happy to put my Model 3LR or F-150 Lightning up against something like a Camaro SS or Mustang GT from a highway roll -- I'll still win.
That 0-10mph response is way too twitchy in most EVs i've ridden. The old teslas were not like this. I'm not sure what package my friends model 3 is or if it comes down to his lead foot but I feel nauseous in that car. Its a combination of that instant torque and the suspension sort of feeling like one of those play horses on a spring you see in playgrounds.
There's something wrong with your friend's model 3. If I stand on my accelerator it goes straight (if set straight) and the suspension (set on sport) is hard.
It's not M5 BMW hard, but it's hard. I guess that if you have a performance variant then maybe it would be.
It could just be thats how it is in cars that twitchy. I don't have really any experience with anything so powerful. Fastest car I've owned is only a 7 second 0-60 car.
No, just skill. Some people are not great at operating the controls and the instant response from an electric motor is exposing their driving style. If it's a Tesla, have them switch to chill mode. Forces them to be smooth.
> if it comes down to his lead foot
Yes. Some people are binary drivers, regardless of drivetrain. But a very responsive EV, especially something like a Tesla Performance trim in sport mode or F-150 Lightning in sport mode, with an unskilled driver can definitely make you seasick. Most drivers who can modulate the pedal do just fine, though.
The only real problem with Teslas is that they don't have an option to go without one pedal driving. Some drivers really aren't suited for 1PD, frankly.
You won't reach the limits of weight and handling of EVs when driving on public roads in ways that don't risk jail time.
Most people don't take their old Toyota to a race track, so they don't need their Leaf to beat a Lambo either.
The instant 0-30mph is the biggest advantage in day to day driving.
Now I want street versions of the Speirling.
No. It’s 100% a design choice by the manufacturer to make them look weird.
Even with the benefits of EV packaging, manufacturers chose to make them “different” on purpose, which really put off the vast majority of buyers. Tesla had so much success because they were practically the first manufacturer to make something look somewhat normal and have good stats.
Now, BMW finally learned and has their 4 and 5 series EV cars share a common platform with the ICE. There is no physical difference in style other than the front grill.
This is just what the contemporary Nissan ICE cars looked like.
The first gen leaf got a lot of commentary about this "EV look" and the contemporary Nissan Note had a similar front end. And then both got 2nd gens that evolved similarly.
Their Juke could be an overinflated Leaf at a glance etc.
Wikipedia photos:
1st gen:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Note#/media/File:2005_N...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf#/media/File:2017_N...
2nd gen
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Note#/media/File:Nissan...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf#/media/File:Nissan...
That wouldn't explain the unorthodox color schemes lots of smaller EVs like the i3 have. It really seems they are made uglier 'on purpose'. Also, a Tesla model S or 3 looks like a normal car so it's not other brands can't do that.
VW's first-gen EVs, the eGolf and later eUp, looked basically just like the Golf and Up. This lead people to believe that VW did not make electric cars (a lot of people thought the ID.3/4 were their first). The market _wants_ electric cars to be a bit weird-looking.
I don't buy that. The eGolf was impopular due to its tiny range, eUp was too expensive for something that's basically a glorified shopping kart. People are well aware VW had electric cars, and the ID3/4 also don't look that weird to me just as Tesla, Hyundai Kona/Kia Niro don't.
What the market wants is cars that are cheap to drive, practical and fast. While there are people wanting to make a statement with their car I can't believe that's a majority. The overwhelming amount of cars in my city belongs to the cheap/practical category.
I think the Tesla looking like a normal car is because their design language hasn't changed in forever.
I've found myself taking a second look at a bunch of ICE cars recently as they've all started trying to copy elements from electric car design...
The only difference between EV and ICE is less holes in front as they need less air for cooling the radiator. All other things looks similar. How car looks is a design choice not related to the type of engine.
They still have similar constrains - crumple zones for crash protection mean they will never make a 'flat front' again. aerodynamics is also a factor and again places limits on design.
Car dealerships are so useless. Imagine making a profit but offering this level of service:
> Range Anxiety: Yes, it's overblown, but no, it's not non-existent. The day I bought my used EV, the dealership (which doesn't sell many EVs, even new) didn't have a 'Level 3' DC fast charger—and they had only charged it to about 16%. Letting it top off at L2 while I was dealing with finance, we got to 23%. I wasn't quite sure I'd make it home off the lot! Luckily I did, with 12 miles of range remaining.
I also thought this was a pretty silly way of bringing up range anxiety. It's like a dealership selling you a gas car with an empty tank. Obviously the very first thing you would do is to refill it before driving home.
They should fill the tank up with gasoline before putting it on the lot.
This shouldn't really big a big deal in most metro areas, at least. The car dealer doesn't have a big tank of gasoline on site, either, they just drive the car to the station and fill it up while you're signing the papers. They could just drive to the local fast charger with the EV and do exactly the same thing.
> This shouldn't really big a big deal in most metro areas
Not sure which areas you're referring to but in the Northeast EV infrastructure around the metro areas is not the best. In my experience, I would have to plan out my stops if I was driving between Philly and NYC if I didn't have a 90+% charge and even then I would be worried that there would be a line or chargers would be out of order.
Taking a look at an EV map, there's only half a dozen stations around NYC with 100+ kW chargers and almost all of those chargers are in-use at 2 pm on a Saturday. Sure you can go to a slower charger or just wait, but it's a pain in the ass if you are trying to plan out a trip and show up on time.
> there's only half a dozen stations around NYC with 100+ kW chargers
That seems low. Even looking only at Tesla Superchargers, there are something like a dozen just right around NYC itself. Not including EA or any other providers.
Heck, even sleeping Portland, Oregon has 10 Tesla Superchargers in the metro area.
EVs lose energy just sitting there, so if you are going to sell EVs, it’s a cost of doing business
Never heard of a Tesla going home with 12% battery.
> EVs lose energy just sitting there
Depends on the EV. My Tesla can chew on a lot of battery with Sentry mode. My Lightning, on the other hand, goes into deep sleep and loses essentially zero energy while parked. It can sit for months without a meaningful loss of charge.
> And charging stations are run by multiple vendors with multiple apps and payment methods.
I rented a PHEV in Spain, and this was the biggest issue. Every charger has an app. They want all your information, even your home address, before charging. Most of them error out after you try to make it work in the 44 °C / 110 °F Spanish sun.
After trying five charging apps and only succeeding in one, I gave up charging completely because of the horrible experience. I wonder why EVs don't save credit information in the vehicle and negotiate payment with them via some sort of "Cable API" or something. Or even you know, use tap to pay PoS like every normal transaction does.
"Plug and charge" is a thing, and is supported by some vehicles and charging stations. Unfortunately, it's not universal (yet), but the standards are there.
The EU has finally fixed this, though only mandatory for chargers installed _after_ the regulation: https://electrek.co/2023/07/11/europe-passes-two-big-laws-to...
When I did a roadtrip with a rented PHEV I just charged every night with the power plug. It’s kinda pointless since PHEV battery range is like what, 50km.
This is my experience as well with regular EV chargers. Tesla chargers on the other hand work seamlessly and reliably. You walk up, you plug it in and it works. No fuss.
> I want an EV that looks like a Camry. Just blend in and don't stand out.
The Camry has a drag coefficient of about 0.36.
The Leaf is about 0.28.
https://ecomodder.com/wiki/Vehicle_Coefficient_of_Drag_List
Drag coefficient matters a lot for EVs. Air resistance reduces the range of all cars, but you notice the decrease in an EV. (When I plan a long trip, I use windy.com to see if I'll have a headwind or a tailwind and I plan accordingly.)
That's why EVs look different. And why EV trucks often have terrible range, even though they have more room for batteries.
The coefficient isn't what matters; it's CdA (coefficient of drag times frontal area). (And what it matters for is efficiency at highway speeds.) Like, my Kia EV9 has a Cd of 0.28, but the frontal area of a schoolbus. My mi/kWh at highway speeds is much worse than what an electrified Camry with a 0.36 Cd would get.
Something the size of a Camry would be totally fine as an EV. Lucid Air is approximately this shape and is a great EV.
(And at lower speeds, drivetrain and tire friction become bigger factors.)
Agree. Drag coefficient is significant as well as waxing. I think almost almost a clear third was due to waxing. And it really is not that hard to do once a week.
Nice, we did the same recently.
The choice was
I'm so glad we picked the e-golf! It's so fast and nice to drive and cheap to run. Only downside is the limited range (200km on a summer day) but even my commute (100km one-way) is OK as I can charge at work and home.That said, we still have a Touran for when we need to drive further or with lots of luggage.
If only the chairs in the eGolf were a bit better...
Bad seats in a VW? Yeah, I guess they really saved too much on the interior in that generation.
My parents have a SportWagen with various extra cushions on the seats because they find them so uncomfortable.
If that were me then for that much money I'd just buy a used Tesla Model 3
For many people in Europe, Tesla is just out of question now.
A used tesla model 3 in the Netherlands is upwards of 20k euro, so quite a different price bracket.
Also, guessing here, the insurance is quite a bit higher.
The 400+hp Teslas are super-expensive to insure here in Sweden. Like 3x the price of only slightly cheaper, but less powerful EVs.
I see them for 14-15k€ on mobile.de, even as low as 12k€
CHAdeMO is Betamax all over again. It's the best standard because it supports bidirectional power flow, which theoretically allows EVs to support the grid during demand spikes.
But if course CHAdeMO is dying. NACS is second best because it's less bulky than CCS, and NACS is winning in the US so the situation is less bad than it might have been.
My electric truck supports bidirectional power flow through NACS. Currently only usable with Tesla-specific vehicle and hardware, but the connector itself does support it. It was very useful during a few multi-day power outages.
> I hate every time I have to jack up my car and change the brakes, or take it in for oil/fluid changes
This is is such a weird take. Most EVs weigh a lot more than a ICE car (although the Leaf is about the same as most normal sized sedans) so the brake pads wear more quickly. And anyone that takes the time to change their brakes is likely doing their own oil changes because it takes 15 minutes.
The rest of the write-up is pretty spot on though. I leased a Hyundai Ioniq 6 2 years ago because I thought I would enjoy the driving experience. I was living in Philly and at the time it was my only car so I used it for trips to other parts of the city as well as any driving around the northeast to see friends and family. It's amazing for local driving, but doing any kind of drive that was more than 100 miles was a logistical pain. Even if you plan out the stops, you are still constantly worrying about whether or not there will be a long line to charge or the chargers themselves are broken even if they are reported as working in the apps.
I've since moved to the suburbs and my partner uses the Ioniq to commute to work because it's perfect for that. For any longer trips, we opt for our ICE car.
The only future foray I would consider with EVs is doing something like an EV conversion on my kei truck. Hopefully the Slate and Telo are the start of a wave of small EV trucks because I love the idea of a small truck that I can use to bring to Home Depot or to pick up larger FB Marketplace purchased.
> so the brake pads wear more quickly
I don't think so. With regen on a Bolt, I regularly drive dozens of miles (in traffic, and with full stops) without touching the break pedal.
Good job. I have driven ( for at least 2 trips ) a TeslaS a TeslaX, a Leaf, and EV-1... The Leaf was the easiest to use the regenerative breaking, and the very most efficient at it. Using the 80Mile model, and hand waxing the outside ( a favorite of the 100Mpg Prius group ) I was able to go 69.5 Miles, with 22% remaining. 28% more efficient than rated. This was a mostly highway traveled trip, with a bunch of city errand running at the end.
Both I and the owner were very impressed. They ordered the 100mile battery pack, which was very expensive, but it has been great in the long run.
I think it was like 81% cheaper than a gasoline trip at the time not including long term wear and tear. ( Ware and Tare?$#).
I think the Nissan Leaf is the very best of the bunch.
I recently had a similar situation but the chademo charger was the deal breaker for me here in the UK. Yes they exist, but perhaps each station would have 1 chademo Vs 3 or 4 CCS2, while other more recent stations are only CCS2. And even if there is one there, the chademo would only be 45 or 50kw while the newer CCS2 ones are frequently 150+kw now. I think I only ever saw a 100kw chademo once (...or maybe I imagined that?!)
Some lexus things used chademo too.
Ended up getting a used VW id.3 which ticks a lot of the leaf's boxes, but has CCS2 and 100+kw dc charging
> And charging stations are run by multiple vendors with multiple apps and payment methods. It's not like gas stations, like with Shell, BP, Buckee's, etc. where you just drive up, stick the gas nozzle in your tank, and squeeze.
The "how to juice your car" question is pretty much solved on the electrical and communications side... but the "how do you pay for the juice" question is indeed absurd. I understand that providers of high capacity charging stations wish to charge a bit extra because a single 200 kW+ DC charger quickly reaches 40k € in pure hardware cost, in addition to the installation cost and the regular swapping of cables due to thieves. But why the EU and the US governments haven't stepped in yet and mandated either a "roaming" standard (where my primary billing contact would be a regular electric utility with a set base price per kWh and optional surcharges for high-capacity chargers or stations in high demand) or acceptance of all common credit and debit cards is way beyond me.
Instead, it's not just multiple vendors, apps and payment methods - it's also a (sometimes wild) difference in price depending on how you pay, at the same station. In contrast, at each gas station there is a sign that's visible from afar stating the exact price for your fuel, with the only thing one might hope for is a 1 cent discount for high volume diesel fuel pumps (aka, your truck's hole is big enough to fit a truck diesel nozzle) and a further 1 cent discount from some sort of loyalty reward scheme.
Fixing the payments thing has been addressed by the EU as far as I know: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_23_...
Unfortunately, only partially [1]:
- card acceptance is only required for 50 kW+ chargers. All the relatively low power chargers at supermarkets, shopping malls and other public venues? They can get by with offering QR codes that are all too often abused for phishing campaigns [2][3] and still have the issue with requiring some sort of app.
- the "card acceptance" may also be fulfilled by PSD2 compliant mobile banking apps, so if you got a rooted phone (where Google Pay is a cat-and-mouse game), a phone whose vendor is under sanctions and thus doesn't get the Google ecosystem or don't want to involve Google Pay, Apple Pay, PayPal or the likes in your daily life, you're screwed just as well at these charger points
On top of that, the standard to publish pricing information to the public coordination exchange is a hot XML/SOAP mess [4].
[1] https://nationale-leitstelle.de/ladeinfrastruktur-im-eu-kont...
[2] https://www.adac.de/news/verkehr-quishing-parkautomaten/
[3] https://www.adac.de/news/auto-quishing-betrug-ladesaeule/
[4] https://nationale-leitstelle.de/wp-content/uploads/2025/07/M...
I was too optimistic about card payments when I went on vacation with my electric car in EU this summer. In some countries it worked perfectly but in other countries I had to scan a QR code, which usually ended up in an "sorry, there was an error" page. When I eventually started using a charging network the rest of the vacation was great.
I ended up grabbing an Ioniq fully electric 2019 and i absolutely love it. Got it for a decent used cost, interior wise it was like new, no huge touch screen, but a decent one for CarPlay and Android Auto, real knobs and buttons, and the online portion is entirely obsolete since it used 3G so it has no connection to the internet! It’s perfect for me
According to IIHS insurance loss data, https://www.iihs.org/research-areas/auto-insurance/insurance... , here's the chance of being injured while riding in one of these cars (and filing an insurance claim) relative to the average US vehicle:
So the choice of Nissan Leaf was OK from a safety perspective, but the Chevy Bolt is better. The Tesla is much worse.When we moved, my wife was looking for an electric scooter to get to the train station for a commute to work. When we considered the weight and practicality in bad weather, we found new Dacia Spring 2023 model for 14,000 € in sales. It's a game changer since we charge it exclusively at home for about 1 € per 200 km range. There is virtually no maintenance. Having a VW Passat diesel for longer trips, we cannot be happier.
> With EVs there are tradeoffs. Even in my situation, only driving a car a few miles a day, I do take my car on one or two regional road trips every year.
That's how we ended up with a Chevy Volt in 2017. 100K trouble-free miles later, we still have it and my wife still loves the car.
> No gasoline-powered car (outside of supercars, maybe? Never drove one of those) could match the feel of pressing the throttle on an electric.
Probably need to be careful with this because flooring it is addictive and you'll waste a lot of energy doing it.
For me the feeling of an electric car gave me a strange feeling. I just felt like I was in an electric wheelchair. It really hammered home the ridiculousness of able-bodied people travelling around town in these huge electric wheelchairs. I don't hold much hope for the future but I'd love to be able to live in a town without these things around.
They're good for cheap ev conversions - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iC_xLe306M8&t=1174s fun watch.
Leaf is great. Parents have the first model, and I love driving it whenever I'm visiting. Even after the battery degraded to under 90 miles, I was still able to make any drive I needed and recharge at home. Charging infrastructure around town has gotten a lot better too and I think when I have kids and need a car, the leaf is where I'll start my search.
Also, it's really incredible that the dealer only had the leaf charged to 16% at the time of sale.
I briefly owned a gen 1 leaf. It went from 70 miles of “range” (more like 25) at 100% to 50 in a couple of years of very light driving. Poor guy who bought it from me had all kinds of trouble trying to get it home.
Ebike would be nicer at that point. Battery takes far less time to charge over 110v. You can simply hot swap a charged battery. No insurance or registration requirements. Far lower base cost. Far lower maintenance costs. About the same range. Probably similar cargo volume compared to a cargo ebike. Just need a rain coat and rain pants and you are probably set for most conditions. Call an uber when you actually need to transport 4 people and you'd come out well ahead.
The big secret with bike commuting is that in urban setting on surface streets, its actually the fastest way to get around short of a motorcycle or helicopter. Yes, much faster than cars, thanks to lane splitting.
I have an ebike, it's very nice, and I live ~9 miles from my job, so it's well within range.
But I would not want to be caught in the ever changing weather here on an ebike. Maybe if it had a shell to protect the rider, but then we're getting into it being too pricey for an ebike range.
Rain pants and rain coat work great for keeping you dry
Last year, I got a found a great deal on a gently used Chevy Bolt EUV 2023 model with only about 8k miles on it for about $16k USD from Hertz. Granted, I had to fly out of state to pick it up, but it was a great experience all together. Learned quickly that this car is not a road tripping car as it took over an hour to charge to 80%.
However, it is an amazing commuter car. Being able to charge it at home is fantastic.
We already put 14k miles on it since we got it last year.
I was thinking about buying the leaf but I have a 2012 Honda Fit and my monthly gas expense is so cheap that I didn't bother. I use the car often but for mainly short drives within the city.
Am I blind or he doesn't the mention the price anywhere in the post?!
Sorry, just added that data towards the end.
I have a Kia Niro EV 2024.
Before buying this car I didn't like driving.
Now I like driving.
Actually, I like it so much that I began doing something I never did before with any car I had: I read the whole owner's manual, I wash and clean the car every month and I pay attention to maintenance routine.
That's how good it feels to drive electric.
The Leaf's used to be pretty bad as far as electric cars went, with no active battery cooling or heating. I was pretty tempted to get a used Bolt EV. I've seen them for sub 20k with less than 30k miles on them. I've been driving around in my wife's older Subaru Crosstrek plug in hybrid, which works fine for the limited amount of driving I do to commute to work. We plan to give that car to my son once he gets his license.
So here's the thing that's coming for EVs, and I finally started to see it for the Leaf: driveway DIY battery replacement:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIQ-RROpls0
Yes, this involves lying on your back with a 700 lb battery held up by jacks just inches above your head. But heck, services are expensive these days so it's going to happen.
This makes me wonder, if you can replace one, can't you add one on top of the old one? Or two or three? There goes the range anxiety
Not yet, but I kinda wonder if it will happen. At least in certain situations. For example, the F150 Lightning -- body-on-frame truck where the battery sits between the rails rather than being tightly integrated with a custom unibody design. As batteries improve, I could see people retrofitting newer batteries with more capacity.
I was super in favor of EVs in EU to the moment I visited Germany to notice that 3/4 of all cars were disel cars and getting pushed to green laws is a scam.
I enjoy driving good cars that roar nice, so bought a new disel car that can drive 180/h without sweating much.
I value my time more than anything else.
> One pedal driving Seriously, why doesn't every EV have this mode? It makes driving one feel SO much better than any gas car, in terms of connection between driver and car movement.
_ANY_ gas car? 100% of manual transmission cars (and now PDK/DSG/DCT) have this.
One pedal driving means you can come to a full stop and start accelerating again with a single pedal. You can certainly come to a full stop in a manual transmission car without touching the brake pedal or clutch but the engine will stall and you won't be able to accelerate again until you restart it and get the car back in gear. AFAIK no ICE cars have one pedal driving although I guess it's possible to implement sans the regenerative braking.
Sort of. Regenerative braking can be far stronger than engine braking (with the possible exception of a diesel exhaust brake).
Bought a leaf for 13k five years ago. It’s saved us 10k in fuel over that time compared to petrol car. NO BRAINER
My dream is a young person is that Nissan would release an affordable car that me and my homeless little brother could sleep in comfortably. We both are in college pursuing CS degrees and it's getting difficult.
Its fun to witness EVs living up to their original promise. Yes, the 1st generation of EVs without battery heating and cooling were mostly disposable experiments to catch-up with Tesla. That much is fact. However, the late model, new-wave of EVs (with proper battery technology) have crushed every excuse, except for variety.
> CarlinKit 5.0 Wireless CarPlay/Android Auto adapter because the Leaf only supports wired CarPlay by default
OMG this may have just saved my life that this is a thing
though it looks like there are ones with much better reviews
Huh, i see a bunch of used Renault Zoes for about 5k or less in my area. I wonder if they hold up as well.
Zoes are fine, so long as they have fast charge and are the last generation (52kwhr)
The software is pretty shit. Lagging and annoying. But apple/android play stops that.
As a car its smooth, quiet, and fast if you need to be. The only annoyance driving wise is that it doesn't have adaptive cruise control, and the reverse/drive/neutral switch always returns to the middle, so you can't tell what mode its set to without looking at it
It depends. Zoés come in many flavours, with different sizes of battery (52kWh is the best, the same size as current Renault models R4 and R5), rented or bought (don't buy a Zoé with a rental battery!!!), and the CCS2 port is in option (no CCS-2 effectively means no day trip longer than full range, unless you have the 22kW AC option, but still... you'll need to find a 22 kW charger en route, not that easy).
Battery management on Zoés is fine ; it doesn't have the overheating problem that plagues the Leaf and the VW e-Up in particular; it doesn't have the "very slow charge when cold" problem of many cheap EVs with LiFePO4 batteries, though it charges up quite slowly (10-80% in 50 minutes).
Someone I know recently bought a 135HP 52kWh Zoé without CCS-2 and 22kW AC charge for 7500€. That's a real bargain, it'sequivalent for all practical purposes (but long travel) to a brand new 30000€ R5 :)
A lot of Zoes i see for sale are with a rental or lease battery. So be sure to check if that 5k includes a battery or not.
I half expected to read that he devised a charging circuit for it controlled by a raspberry pi. I was somewhat disappointed when it turned out to be a normal blog post about buying a car.
I want one just as a “house battery backup” and beater car. Something along the lines of 800W ecoflow inverter in the leaf to delta pro to house. But I don’t fully know how the air cooled aspect of the leaf would impact this idea.
Not possible everywhere because of bad (car oriented) infrastructure, but an e-bike would be more optimal for this person's commute since they're "only driving a few miles a day".
No insurance, fun, repair it yourself, etc
I used to bike about 3 and 1/2 mi to work and back.
This was right in the middle of a major city. It was so nice to just basically not have to deal with traffic. I was faster than cars at that point.
I never got a fat tire enough to do the snow, so I would ride until I absolutely couldn't anymore. If it was 15° or Fahrenheit or less, I'd still ride. I would just bundle up like I was skiing.
It was a pretty small office, so I could just roll my bike up to my cube and leave it in there.
And when it was lunch I could go further faster.
Modern e bikes are even better. Commute farther, carry more stuff, sweat less, hills/headwinds don't matter.
There should be so much more bicycle commuting these days with e-bikes.
Rain does suck though.
Yeah we get like 33 and rain in the Pacific Northwest for a solid chunk of the winter (only freezes sometimes). I find I end up riding with less electric assist during the winter so I generate my own heat.
> bad (car oriented) infrastructure
It's not an either-or. You can have streets which are car-friendly, bike-friendly, and pedestrian-friendly at the same time. Just look at the Dutch, they've been doing it for years. That is until recently in some big cities, though, where some less knowledgeable politicians have also adopted this false populist either-car-or-bike concept. Though the traditional principle still applies to about 99% of the country's roadworks, and it works really well.
As European it really struck me how poor the second hand ev market must be in the US. For the “cheap second hand car to do short distances” we have a lot of options really cheap - older gen Renault Zoe and Peugeot e208s, leafs, even the old hyundai Ioniq which is a bit of a cult favourite for its efficiency
If you buy used cars you are limited to what someone else bought 3 or more years ago. new didn't have many options then. Even now there are not many good options for a new car buyer but most niches have something. I wanted an used id.buzz, but that won't be an option for 2 more years and so I'm stuck with the current minivan. my truck is dieing and a silverado could do but I can't afford payments on it new so again 2 more years and I need something else in the meantime.
I don't think it's an EV issue. It's rather "How poor the second hand small car market must be in the US". I guess alternatives in the same class in US are only two cars: Fiat 500 and Yaris.
Gas is cheap in US, so they have less incentives to buy EVs to start with.
The trick with neutral in the leaf is that you have to hold the gear selector in the neutral direction for about a second. No relation to brake pedal timing as far as I can tell. No idea why neutral has that delay given none of the other “gears” do.
Because neutral isn't a thing they expect the lowest common denominator consumer the car is designed to be usable for to be using on the daily so they gate it behind some stupid extra motions.
It's like a "lite" version of how some cars make you enter a stupid cheat code to reset your oil change reminder or some other thing that should just be in settings.
My neighbor has an Ioniq 5, styling-wise it's cooler than my Tesla. Reminds me of Corrado -- one of my favorite cars. But we have had night and day experiences with charging our EVs.
The supercharger network seems effortless & flawless -- almost too good. No payments, planning. The stations are clean, quiet & secluded. Just follow the Nav and charge.
The third-party network has been a disaster for my neighbor. He's had to back track many times, even on ~ 2 hr trips. The chargers are broken, causing him to double-back even more. On a recent trip the only working charger was next to a gas station and the fumes made his wife sick. He has 4+ apps to manage charging payments .
How on earth do people tolerate other EVs?
People tolerate other EVs in two ways:
1. You charge at home and typically drive relatively short distances, meaning you almost never have to interact with a commercial charger; or 2. If you need to rely on commercial chargers, you live in a part of the world where Tesla was never allowed to build a charging network monopoly (i.e anywhere outside the US), or in a part of the US where there's decent fast charging infrastructure
It sounds like your neighbour is unfortunate to require relatively frequent charging at commercial charging stations, in a part of the world where Tesla was allowed to build out a charging network monopoly.
He has home Level 2 (11kw) charging. But his EV is his primary road trip car.
It's not a "part of the world" it's Portland Metro area where millions live.
Is the Portland Metro area not a part of the world?
do you live in some communist country where businesses need to get approval ?
I live in some communist country where there are rules companies need to follow, one of those rules is "EVs must use the standard charging mechanism"
sounds communist
You can charge Ioniq 5's at most Tesla charging stations. I have a 2025 and it comes with the NACS port. It can charge anywhere. It's great.
his has the older port , I think CCS. 2025 was the first year with NACS . I heard Hyundai offers the adapters free / discounted but he hasn't picked one up yet.
also he doesn't like Elon so i think he's a bit stubborn about it
I love how the Ioniq 5 looks, but it’s too long. I wish they sold a Bolt-sized cousin in the US, that would be perfect.
a true Corrado clone, below 3500 lbs , would be sick
> How on earth do people tolerate other EVs?
I charge my Lightning at the same Tesla Superchargers I use with my Model 3. Works the same, plug in and walk away.
(...)I'm trying to do some things to extend the battery's life as long as possible (...) Not driving like a maniac.
Oops. My work daily is the same Leaf, my personal car is a '95 1.8 Turbo Miata. The Leaf suffers.
The cheapest EV would be a BYD Surf, but unfortunately you cannot find used cars of these yet in Europe. Too new. Eying those for a while
That's not the cheapest, at least in France the cheapest new EV is the Dacia Spring.
Of course if you look at the used market, older models like Renault Zoe can also be found for cheap... But considering EV technology have been evolving fast, I wouldn't buy a model older than 5 years old.
I also wouldn't want anything that doesn't have a CCS2. All my small electronics are finally USB-C, I don't want to deal with obsolete plug types and adapters again.
Nice work! Cool to see the mix of personal story and practical EV tips, especially the GitHub angle.
I agree with the ugly comments, which is why I went with the Cupra Born (2024)! It’s like a sporty space egg and I love it haha
@Jeff:
Are you worried or thought about resale value? Do you plan to keep it for long?
Like my other cars, I plan on driving it into the ground :)
And the range is overkill for me, really. I could live with 100 miles or so and not worry, so even if the battery wears down to 50% SoH (right now it's 93% after 36k miles), I'll still be happy.
What's your strategy for scrapping a car? I find people grossly underestimate the cost of car ownership mostly due to cost of maintenance and repairs at the end of life. It's so easy to keep bleeding parts and labour for longer than is economical.
EV motors typically outlive the rest of the car. Leaf is old enough that there's a whole cottage industry of battery repairs, replacements, and repurposing them for solar energy storage.
I assume you mean the batteries? What do people use the motors for?
I've meant you don't need to worry about motors failing in old EVs, unlike engines that are the primarily concern in old ICE cars.
Apart from battery degradation, the other thing that may be the final nail in the coffin for an old EV (other than Leaf) is failure of HVAC. Temperature management is important for keeping batteries healthy when fast charging, and to prevent motors from overheating when you send them a quarter of a megawatt of power.
And the rest of the problems is the same like in any other car of the same era.
> They seem to not require an Internet connection for their cars
That would be the only reason to get that car now days! Can the car just drive without Internet. I want my car to be my not connected to cloud for all kinds crap.
> found myself with a very short commute, only driving a few miles a day > No gasoline-powered car [...] could match the feel of pressing the throttle on an electric.
You know what is unmatched for joyful travel through space, with occasional bursts of adrenaline? Especially practical over short distances of a few miles?
A bicycle! Especially when you already have one vehicle for family obligations.
I snicker when I see those ads that promise you'll be just whooshing around through rolling hills in your newest automotive purchase. No, buddy, you'll be gnashing teeth in traffic most of the time.
To be fair, if you are gnashing teeth in traffic, a bike is probably fairly dangerous outside a select few cities.
Why not a bicycle? This seems overkill for "a few miles" which I take to mean 4 Even an ebike seems overkill for this
Ceramic heater replacement anyone?
Hmm, my friend had a 2015 Leaf, the interior seemed much nicer and more modern than this 2023 model.
> There is no 'play/pause' button. Anywhere. At least not on the steering wheel or the display area. You have to go into the music section on the entertainment display, then press the software play/pause button. That's dumb.
My new to me 2023 Honda Odyssey has the same stupid issue. It's my first vehicle with a touch screen, and I have a lot of trouble hitting the pause button especially when I'm trying to mute it because I need to pay extra attention to the road. WHY is there not just a Play/Pause button on the wheel!? Or at least a physical button on the dashboard.
Fortunately, the play/pause button problem is easily solved. Aliexpress sells play/pause buttons. Search for something like "Auto Wireless Media Button". They connect via Bluetooth, you can stick them anywhere on your dashboard, and they use a button cell that lasts about a year. There are also ring-shaped ones you can attach to the steering wheel.
On my 2021 Nissan Kicks, the volume knob is the only play/pause button. It's not a mute button only, it does pause your media coming through CarPlay.
Also, this is my last Nissan. I have been thoroughly disappointed with the super buggy and laggy head unit in this thing and it is apparently a common theme for Nissan.
My 2016 Ford with CarPlay was rock solid.
Your friend probably had an SL-trimmed Leaf. The car in the video is an SV, which has cloth seats, etc. Interestingly, it looks like Nissan no longer offers the nicer trim levels for the Leaf, only S and SV PLus (at least as of 2025.)
i think lowering the volume down to zero now constitutes as play/pause
i hate it too
Even cheaper is a bicycle and use your body fat as a battery.
That's what I've been doing for ~1 year and have lost over 14 lbs.
2023 is new wow
Looks like you bought a faulty computer which happens to have 4 wheels buddy.
The neutral and parking brake issues: that just by itself should make Nissan stocks plummet. 2025 and we have these issues? It definitely looks an involution to me.
Things we humans are still lame at: adapters. Power adapters, cable data adapters. Why do we have bazillions adapters?
Can't we just design one adapter for the whole world that makes happy both manufacturers and customers? If not governments should step in and force manufacturers to include all adapters ever needed as part of a car purchase. That you have to spend more money just to charge a car because of the adapter is ridiculous.
If EVs are in this line of quality/user experience in general, thanks I'll pass and get something reliable and old school that actually works as expected.
Edit: And we don't need mobile apps to control our cars. Another really stupid and ridiculous idea that has been pushed to customers when no-one actually asked for that.
EU solved it years ago by mandating CCS2. Even Tesla in EU uses that plug and reportedly just works, except Tesla have no access to DCFC without carrying an adapter because they adamantly reject Combo2. I believe China does the same, only stricter, and some of Model S/X in China reportedly has fuel doors to fit the port.
As if regulations work. They seem to have very strange situations over there.
Everyone in the us has now agreed to use teslas NACS so this problem will go away with new cars over the next 5 years or so. If you have an older car good luck. And many parking garrages won't update their chargers. Still with NACS and ev's taking off you will see a lot more chargers going up as investors try to get this new market for charging:
Strictly speaking, the EU only mandates CCS2 on _chargers_; the second gen Leaf sold in Europe didn't have CCS2, though I think it was about the last car not to have it.
What is the neutral issue? It sounds annoying to switch in to, but when do you even need neutral in an EV? The reasons I’ve needed it while driving ICE cars aren’t there in an EV, because it’s the same as the car being off.
Come to think of it, I have no idea how to get my car in to neutral.
I don't know about the neutral issue... The only time I use the neutral is to go through an automatic car wash. Hold the brake and push the selector to the left/neutral for ~3 seconds.
Huh, today I learnt about continuous automatic car washes. Never seen one of those, the ones over here you park in and it moves around you, they’ve been that way since the 90s at least.
Not the cheapest:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuling_Hongguang_Mini_EV
"In 2020, the Mini EV had a price starting at US$4,162, and topped out at US$5,607 for a fully loaded model, making it China's cheapest electric car."
He's not in China though.
Oh thank God. The cheapest EV in China is little more than a flashlight with a wind up propeller, (joking/not joking) but not as safe. No one it their right mind could compare it to a leaf to a tesla.
Something which this article highlights is the lack of reliable rail in the USA.
Where I am there is a decent rail network, and the rail provider has a fleet of EVs for rent, where the cost of the electricity is included. This provides a "green" last mile solution even if the public transport itself in each area may be lacking (often it's not however).
So a trip looks like this:
Hop on the train which quickly takes the lion's-share of the travelling distance, then switch to an EV that fills the gap to the final destination/s. Then do this process in reverse to get home.
This approach solves the largest problems presented by the author.
High speed rails would involve large scale manufacturing and long-term planning. This is the one thing the US simply cannot do anymore (unless it's military, then they will make 300ish in a decade)
High speed rail is definitely not a requirement. Ordinary trains are still faster than driving.
What the USA lacks is a robust network. The spread of rail is too thin to be useful for everyday use.
Trains in the western US are not faster than driving because there is heavy freight rail traffic. Passenger trains (if they existed) would get stuck behind slow freight trains.
That’s why more rail needs to be built. I.e a robust network - I find I’m repeating myself.
Side lanes are also a feature of these networks, and exist not just to overtake freight or behind schedule trains, but also enable different levels of service, such as express trains versus “all stops” style services.
The optics of this thread are telling.
You should never purchase EVs, only lease them. That's what I did. This saves you from the terrible depreciation they have.
The only time it makes sense to buy an EV is if it's used.
Edit: He bought used.
> Mistake #1: He bought an EV.
> You should never purchase EVs, only lease them. That's what I did. This saves you from the terrible depreciation they have.
> The only time it makes sense to buy an EV is if it's used.
Coming in too hot, friend! The headline, and opening line, is that it is a used EV.
Also, leasing does not prevent you from paying for the depreciation. It's just included in the fee.
With these things, it is helpful to place oneself on the other end of the transaction and think how you would price things. When you think about it critically, you notice that it can get pretty sophisticated.
This is true, except that the manufacturers frequently choose to eat the loss by setting the residual unnaturally high. Even Tesla has been doing this lately.
How does leasing save you from depreciation? Surely the company leasing you the car has a good idea of what the depreciation will be, and they want to make money.
Some of the manufacturers put a high residual on the lease because it moves vehicles. They'll presumably be losing money on the deal, eventually. But the nice thing about leasing is that you decide in advance what the depreciation is going to be, so you get to make it a certainty and base your decision on that.
That depends on what real depreciation is. Sometimes those experts get it wrong. This can be for or against you though.
the artile is a guy who drives his cars 'into the ground' - he wouldn't care about value he cares about how long it will run.
From a purely economic point of view, buying a new car is always a bad idea, regardless of the drivetrain technology.
People who buy new cars don't do it for economic reasons, they do it so they can configure them exactly the way they want.
Even then, most individuals don't buy new cars. Most of the cars on the used market come from company cars, rentals, leasing...
Exception being those buying new cars, leaving them in storage for a decade or two, and then selling them at auction for 10x.
Even then, it is rarely a good economic decision. Its hard to predict which cars will rise in value that much (unless you're spending $800K+ on some invite-only limited-run hypercar). The storage and insurance add up. It'll invariably need repairs after that time, which can cost a fortune on a limited run car. The opportunity cost will be investing that money in the stock market, which is much more likely to 10x your money.
I'm curious how much you can get for a brand new 2005 Corolla. And don't forget to add storage costs.
They're not doing it with Corollas. They're doing it with Porsches and other sports cars.
Exactly what Tesla first did. Well, they a first did not have an existing ICE vehicle and based the styling off a Lotus Elise sports car.
They didn't based the styling only. They were using gliders[1] built by Lotus.
[1] chassis+body+suspension basically a car without powertrain and interior trim
Over a decade, that storage space will 10x more reliably than the car
He bought a used EV. The cost of depreciation is borne by the previous owner.
He paid 17k and it's still a long way to zero.
$15k after adjusting for extra $2k added to trade-in (my offer was $15k, but they bumped the trade-in value of my Camry up $2k to compensate since that was better for them then adjusting the price down $2k), and at the end of the year I should qualify for the $4k used EV tax rebate (I have the paperwork), so ideally it's an $11k purchase.
I'm happy with that.
I still agree with OP in that purchasing an EV, used or not, is brutal with depreciation.
You can lease a used Tesla Model 3 for $5k/24mo. Say the used Leaf was $15k, it would need to be worth at least $10k in 2027.
Datapoint: once in a century pandemic event where car prices spiked and crashed back 2 years later
Regarding your last sentence, it seems like he did buy a used EV.
but it was used?