Came across them a few times. There’s absolutely nothing special about the tech. If anything they’ve probably fallen quite a bit behind now. What is “special” is just a willingness to do things with data that others would consider inappropriate or unethical. There’s a market for that sort of thing.
“It was miraculous. It was almost no trick at all, he saw, to turn vice into virtue and slander into truth, impotence into abstinence, arrogance into humility, plunder into philanthropy, thievery into honor, blasphemy into wisdom, brutality into patriotism, and sadism into justice. Anybody could do it; it required no brains at all. It merely required no character.”
― Joseph Heller, Catch-22
What bothers me is when people treat the third as some sort of virtue. I think operating in the ethical gray areas makes them feel smart instead of unethical.
Morality is not about intelligence, but some folks believe living by morals is submitting oneself to the lack of intelligence (or stupidity even). The real [evil] geniuses prune their decision tree by not considering morality so they maintain optimum efficiency.
As a technology, it is just database joins. It is just that they are able to pull in data from everything from S3 to SAP to ArcGIS, and provide analytics, visualization etc. on top to provide global visibility into any system.
The visibility can be "show me all illegal immigrant clusters" or "show me bottlenecks and cost sinks in CAHSR construction".
When we offload the moral impetus for society from politics to technology, we also squander control. Tech is tech and can be used for both good and bad. It is not that a strategy that aims to cap downsides by preventing the proliferation of technology is inherently bad, but it is doomed to fail. The evidence for dysfunction is not the existence of Palantir but in the failure of the watchdog layer of society (also called the government).
That also deflects moral responsibility away from Palantir: they have and had every choice to question the purpose of their contracts. The essence of Palantir is specifically pursuing government surveillance contracts as a lucrative, never ending source of profit.
No doubt Deloitte or any other contractor shop would be able to do the same thing - but they don’t choose to.
I am curious if you think that the payment processing companies refusing to serve legal yet undesirable businesses to be in a similar situation as this Palantir situation here?
Analogy: It's true that TNT is, on its own, just a tool, and vastly useful for mining and demolition.
But if the major vendor and purveyor happens to be Blow Thine Enemies To Tiny Bits Incorporated, developing faster fuses and embedded shrapnel, then people are right to be concerned about "The TNT stuff".
> No doubt Deloitte or any other contractor shop would be able to do the same thing - but they don’t choose to.
I'm sorry but I absolutely disagree that the reason say Deloitte is leaving a few hundred billion dollars on the table is the presence of a moral compass.
If a selection mechanism is orthogonal to a property, it seems weird to argue that the selected subset is distributed differently along that axis than the broader population.
Ethics, in simple terms, is how we treat each other. If you claim it’s intrinsically attached to something like decentralized power, it’s at the least a misunderstanding and possibly a misapplied dogma.
Yes. But also, all technologies will eventually be used as weapons. And so its important for us to understand how they can be weaponized and to consider the social cost of that weaponization.
Kitchen knives murder people. Toyota Hiluxes have powered more jihad than modern battle tanks. Our tastes, beliefs, and opinions as a society are shaped by recommendation algorithms run by facebook/instagram/twitter, to our profound detriment (personal opinion).
> And so its important for us to understand how they can be weaponized and to consider the social cost of that weaponization.
To be clear, I absolutely agree. Plenty of tech is double-edged. And Palantir very much so.
Let me restate my point. Palantir (or that class of tech products) is powerful at enabling visibility over a complex system. But visibility is not decisions, it is an input to decisions. If you had real-time telemetry from every single stomach, you could maybe automatically dispatch drones with food wherever someone is starving. Or you could use the data as a high-frequency indicator for a successful invasion. Morality is downstream of decisions not data.
No, you've only heard about one application of it. Airbus and Palantir built something so powerful they productized it and now sell it to airlines to help manage their fleet
That link is more marketing than substance. Is there any data on how well these models perform? For example, how well does their predictive maintenance work, how much risk-adjusted money savings does it provide, what data streams does it require?
> "oh it's just database joins" is about like me ripping your arms off and describing it as "chemical reactions"
This argument is both inconsistent and counterproductive.
Inconsistent as in, the harm to me from having my arms being ripped off comes from you deciding to effect the intent to harm me. No photograph or x-ray of my arms can produce the intent of wanting to harm me.
Counterproductive as in, the "good vs bad" framing is pointless because it does not help with solutions. If your solution is to ban joins, you will have a hard time gaining traction for your cause. Strategic advocacy requires understanding axes along which you may be able to produce a coherent argument and gain leverage. "Ban joins" does not help.
The root-cause of all of this isn't evil government, or data analytics, or joins, or even evil company.
Its data collection. Its privacy. If were waiting around for the day people start acting ethically, we'll experience the heat death of the universe.
Governments can always turn evil. Companies can always be compelled. People can always turn evil.
We need to not give them the ammunition. We've cornered ourselves into a situation where we sacrifice our data and privacy, and we are forced to blindly trust it will not be used against us.
If we do not collect data, we cannot have data breaches. If we do not collect data, we cannot have mass surveillance. If we do not collect data, we cannot have wiretapping.
We've simply allowed and encouraged tech companies to collect as much data as humanly possible. That starts with Google, Meta, et al. We then trust they will not abuse it.
But they certainly can, and they certainly will. What is done now cannot be undone. We cannot take back data immortalized. But, what we can do is prevent new data collection.
Use private services. Run software locally when feasible. Deny analytics. Block advertisments. Use end to end ecryption. Etc.
Palantir is still a tumor. We don't need people profiting off database joins, Oracle did that and became the most hated company on the planet. If the surveillance industry ends up resembling the other "rice bowl" military contractors, American taxpayers will suffer most. It will inevitably become a cost treadmill with infinite billable hours, Congress has seen this happen hundreds of times.
In truth, the rest of your arguement is fully correct. Palantir is often portrayed as the "hacking American businesses" group, but that's NSO. Palantir is merely buying out the data from morally-flexible telecoms and capricious cookie-laden websites. There is an uncomfortable truth about networked technology that America has swept under the rug for decades, and now we have entire businesses as a symptom of that failure. It's a sickening precedent for a free society.
I'd like to believe in a political solution to this. I've yet to see one, and the consequences of the Snowden leaks suggest we may never correct course here in America.
Correct, but then there's all sorts of value judgments involved. And things that are "good" just become part of the background. Makes me think of Louis C.K. and his "Everything is Amazing and Nobody is Happy" bit but now that sort of highlights the double-edgedness of things.
>>> Just quibbling, but obviously tech also enables good that was previously not possible.
>> Sure. And if that bad it enables is worse than the good it enables, then tech is not really that neutral.
> Correct, but then there's all sorts of value judgments involved.
The problem is when the form of "bad" enabled has no remedy. For example, identifying potential dissidents and their "network of associates" to authoritarian regimes. In these cases, there is no amount of "things that are 'good'" which can offset the "bad".
The problem with Palantir is they target gov. agencies.
Most of the time companies who have systems like Palantir, I’m thinking the SAP, Oracle, blah
Blah, have to report earnings to the street through a 10k or have to comply with regulations like Sarbanes Oxley.
They will also have in-house IT staff to monitor the logs etc.
The programs installing the Foundry system have an incentive to hide the data from prying eyes and therefore it never leaves the Palantir ecosystem. The government doesn’t hire independent consultants, auditors etc to confirm if it’s being used or not.
They simply have to demonstrate trustworthiness to a security officer and hope an IG doesn’t have an external equivalent of a Forward deployed engineer.
So while the technology is mediocre, it’s the nebulousness or the lack of audit-ability and the are the people writing checks the same people signing them.
So I sympathize with Karp talking about technology being fine it’s the apparatus surrounding it that says “just trust us” that gives pause, especially in today’s culture of conflict.
If I told you that 90% of all transactions get routed through a foreign companies software, you might pause but it’s been like that for years (SAP). The difference is there are controls in place.
Being a daily user of Foundry, I really see Foundry as a scalable implementation of the SemanticWeb / LinkedData principles.
Not to go [again] in the technical debate, I will summarise their stack: they use Spark as their foundation, with a simple pattern of materialisationAsTables when needed, possible synchronisation to RDBMS or to a graph database with a strong ontological layer on top.
They then provide a web app stack and a low code/noCode dev environment.
[there are other components in the platform, but let’s keep it simple].
So no IT rocket science here, but the UX mostly hides all the IT bricks under a pure data oriented workflow. [very few of my colleagues know what python, spark, AWS are].
Three comments on this: could anyone rebuild such a platform? Yes. Is it worth it? Most companies will say no. Do SAP analytics tools compete? Time will tell.
Really in Foundry the scalability is MASSIVE !
[but keep in mind that this is an analytics platform, not a write-oriented platform]
Now let’s switch to the political side of [the company called] Palantir:
Can such a platform be used by Santa Claus to monitor the data for the next Christmas? yes
Can someone decide to aggregate all the data of all the citizens and hope to do mass control with that? Probably [but hey, Facebook/Netflix/TikTok are already doing that, plus they are actively hacking your *brain*, and no one complains]
I'm sorry, is Palantir a self-sustaining AI with zero human employees?
Or is it a corporation of people that is (I know, try to stifle the laughter) supposed to have at least some morality? I get it. Corporations haven't functioned as any institutional morality since their inception as a legal framework, despite the Supreme Court handing them immortal citizenship with effective privilege over any real citizen.
So far we have:
- masked paramilitary agents chasing down the lowest rungs of "at first they came for ..."
- deployed formal military to democratic cities for intimidation
- cowering, terrified tech CEOs embarrassingly kissing ass
- Threatened, capitulated universities, law firms, and fourth estate tv companies
- Massive amounts of purging of civilian institutions from any oversight
- Purging of military leadership based solely on blind loyalty to the president
- Massive fraud leading to multibillion dollar increase in Trumps wealth
- A supreme court that may as well have been disbanded that has handed unlimited privilege to Trump's executive branch
And waiting in the wings is Palantir-enabled TOTAL INFORMATION AWARENESS of the entire populace.
So back to Palantir, the absolved "just a tech firm" that has been providing turnkey authoritarian control to the US government for decades now. Of course it won't function as any bulwark against the coming storm.
Oh, I think I understand Palantir very well. Anyone that works there should know that you exist to set up totalitarianism. That is your function now. "Homeland defense" and all those weak USA PATRIOT act justifications and funding are now far in the rear view mirror.
> on top to provide global visibility into any system.
Global visibility into the data. There's no guarantee your data and your performance match. We have so much data the quality of much of it is fairly low.
> Tech is tech and can be used for both good and bad.
You can also just lie about what you're doing and use it as a cover for violations of civil rights and federal law.
I mean, if it's just "database joins," then why is the government buying this from a vendor? Shouldn't they just be able to _do that_?
Why do everyone go to Facebook [/or HN] instead of self-hosting their blog?
Because Facebook [/or HN] is a bunch of highly skilled experts that have shaped the proper UX for ubiquitous information exchange between humans [/ geeks].
So we, the users, can concentrate on our own business [/ trolls].
I love how so many HN users make up their own "syntax" in comments
"[/or HN]" !
Jesus, lol.. Reminds me of when folks /emphasize/ words like /this/ in their comments. Anyways, I'm just joshin' ya. Personal blogs /would/ make for a superior internet as opposed to Facebook/X.
>When we offload the moral impetus for society from politics to technology,
I mean Palantir exec and their employees are part of society too right ? They themself are making moral choice when working for such technology instead of joining tables for hospitals.
Our social contract bestows individuals with freedom and governments with the monopoly of violence to police the limits of individual freedom.
If the acts of law abiding individuals (or groups) are a net negative for society, that is not an individual failure. Fiduciary responsibility is a useful parallel: it is not the job of a sugar manufacturer to think about the public health aspects of sugar. Their responsibility to their shareholders is to produce clean, safe, and edible sugar at competitive prices and do a good job with marketing and distributin, that's all.
It’s ironic that HN threads, arguably one of the forums where the majority of users should understand a tech company and its tech, about Palantir always devolve into some weird speculative and conspiracy-like discussion. Palantir’s docs are pretty open too - it’s not like it’s a black box that you can only see if you have a contract with them. So one would think the HN crowd would know something and have an interesting discussion on how it compares to what they’ve seen, etc. But it somehow always turns mostly political and less about the tech
It's because we understand technology very well and how it can be used to further control or surveil you. The tech itself isn't complicated; at best you would have a unified protocol that seamlessly integrates with all data sources, at worst, that part is done manually, but the rest of the tech isn't new as a concept, so there's really nothing to discuss technology-wise. However, as technical people, we can see how something can be used in a bad way or at least, sometime in the future based on the current trend, and it's necessary to discuss such implications even if it's political. For example, when a messaging app requires a phone number to activate, it's essential to highlight that it could be exploited in a SIM swap attack (thus the user should not trust it) or it could leak that number which will expose this person's real identity. And in this case, having so much information collected and shared and easily accessed by one centralized entity is never a good indicator. It's also ironic that the people who used to (still?) attack China and other countries for being surveillance state Orwellian dystopias while virtue signaling all democracy and freedom values, are now okay with such data collection and processing and potential red flagging for things as simple as social media posts.
I don’t think Palantir is going anywhere and preceded the AI hype train. I suspect they’re kind of an out-and-proud MAIN CORE successor. Disturbing, but the Cyber Punk genre has warned us about this for some time.
The palantir bubble will not pop as long as Thiel and his folk are embedded in USG. The stock took off when Trump/Vance came in and Vance is thiels pick
Their primary technology predates any AI hype by a decade at least, and their strength has always been in deploying great engineers.
For those who are looking for information and analysis about Palantir, there is an academic study about surveillance technology with useful information about the company:
Sarah Brayne (2020) Predict and Surveil: Data, Discretion, and the Future of Policing, Oxford University Press.
As the book explains, Palanatir is one of the largest companies specializing in surveillance data management services for law enforcement, the military and other corporations. Palantir does not own its data but rather provides an interface that runs on top of other data systems, including legacy systems, making it possible to link data points across separate systems. Palantir gathers its data primarily from "data brokerage firms," including LexisNexis, Thomson Reuters CLEAR, Acxiom, CoreLogic, Cambridge Analytica, Datalogix, Epsilon, Accurint. As Brayne observes, these data brokerage firms "collect and aggregate information from public records and private sources, e.g., drivers licenses, mortgages, social media, retail loyalty card purchases, professional credentials, charities’ donor lists, bankruptcies, payday lenders, warranty registrations, wireless access points at hotels and retailers, phone service providers, Google searches and maps geolocation, and other sources who sell your data to customers willing to pay for it. Yet it is difficult to fully understand the scope of the data brokerage industry: even the FTC cannot find out exactly where the data brokers get their information because brokerages cite trade secrecy as an excuse to not divulge their sources."
Why is this a concern for people living in a democratic society with a legal system that supposedly protects individual freedoms? "Big data companies argue that their proprietary algorithms and data are trade secrets, and therefore they refuse to disclose their data, code and techniques with criminal defense attorneys or the public" (p. 135). This means that, "In many cases it is simply easier for law enforcement to purchase data from private firms than to rely on in-house data because there are fewer constitutional protections, reporting requirements and appellate checks on private sector surveillance and data collection, which enables police to circumvent privacy laws" (pp. 24-5, 41-2).
> This means that, "In many cases it is simply easier for law enforcement to purchase data from private firms than to rely on in-house data because there are fewer constitutional protections, reporting requirements and appellate checks on private sector surveillance and data collection, which enables police to circumvent privacy laws"
Another way to phrase this is:
Why transform government into Big Brother[0], with
all the hassle of oversight and accountability
this would entail, when outsourcing to Big Friends
via handsome contracts will achieve the same result
while enabling "plausible deniability" under oath?
Only partially. As long as the third-party doctrine is valid in the US, they can claim that they're just integrating data from private companies with existing government records.
And those third party companies can, if they choose, tell Palantir to pound sand if they don't have warrants.
The real problem is those third parties know a LOT about us, and it's essentially impossible to opt out of their data gathering. License plate scanners and credit bureaus, anyone?
>And those third party companies can, if they choose, tell Palantir to pound sand if they don't have warrants.
And then those third party companies, if they're interesting enough to Palantic or those using Palantir, might get cancelled state contracts, or surprise tax audits, and other pressures... totally unrelated "of course"
By every measuring stick of "freedom", with the Palantir Cabal strangling D.C, I don't see how America can be considered a "free state" (as per the constitution) anymore.
You cannot be free in a panopticon, no matter how reductive you try to be about it.
Is palantir just a unifying api to google search history emails and Facebook messages and activities?
I’m guessing it’s a query, background job, data request to these traitorous citizen civil liberty betraying American companies, comes back unifies the data set then allows you to run a needle haystack search on it?
Or like tableau- just connects a bunch of disparate databases that normally are very hard to connect and makes it easier to get relevant data. If every county has a different format for storing data on streetlight purchases, but there has been a code update on what makes them safe palantir tries to make it so one person can search for how many and where streetlights need to be replaced without calling up every county and writing custom scripts to parse 100s of DBMS's.
I know this example is less exciting than spying on everyone but despite how they try to hype it up it's a lot more realistic use case.
The suck up everything. Probably also got all the gov't restricted data from DOGE. The gov't does store vast amounts of encrypted comms to decrypt later in secret datacenters. And then there's prism. They are afraid of normal people, its McCarthy hunting Reds while high on coke raised to the next power
I mean look at the name of the company for pete's sake: Palantir? Sauron indeed..so much of the valley is enabling the surveillance state at all levels of society.
Silicon valley was supposed to do no evil, no wonder this generation hates tech bros
Yeah I think Thiel's fundamental basis for his investment in FB was not that it would generate a tonne of revenues from Ads - but rather - it could become a large scale surveillance tool. Which benefits his interests (it seems).
For certain values of "always". I feel many of the original tech startups were genuinely interested in research, pushing limits, etc. Intel/AMD weren't "evil" as far as I can tell - nor the EDA infrastructure.
The social media era (Fbook) is when it started feeling like "majority of new companies are evil". Of course, if Palantir is Sauron, Oracle is Morgoth..
I for one support our frontline data warriors. They are doing God’s work. Please don’t send a kill drone after me. I was drunk when I said the other stuff, not thinking correctly. It will never happen again.
Was a bit gob-smacked to find out that Alex Karp's PhD thesis [0] (2002 - cofounded Palantir 2003) derives from Theodor Adorno's theory of aggression. imo reading just the intro was so eye-opening for me about the origins of what is now a behemoth - that you can trace a line from critical theory to Palantir - that I think reproducing the first 3 paragraphs here is worth it; emphasis mine:
> This work began with the observation that certain expressions have a drive-releasing effect, and this effect occurs not despite but because of their apparent irrationality. Expressions that blatantly contradict their own content offer actors the opportunity to formally acknowledge the normative order of their cultural environment while simultaneously expressing forbidden desires that violate the rules of this order. This, in turn, does not trigger cultural or social sanctions. On the contrary, such expressions solidify integration processes by making integration and its psychological costs bearable. Drawing from Adorno, I refer to such expressions as "Jargon." Jargon is not just a self-deception; it is a particular form of self-deception. It not only relieves the speaker but also integrates them into the circle of those who belong. Through Jargon, the present is embellished, rendered promising for the future, and thus made acceptable.
> However, Adorno's descriptions of aggressive actions expressed in Jargon are conceptually challenging to grasp. They slip away under the scrutiny of a rigorously working scholar. The translation of such impressions into a durable conceptual model encounters the limits of various social scientific traditions and quickly runs into difficulties. As much as the advantages of transferring Adorno's critique into a different conceptual framework are apparent, there is a risk that by relinquishing Adorno's premises, their critical rigor may disappear.
> Furthermore, this raises a series of questions that need to be addressed. For example, how can the complexity of modern society be taken into account without ignoring the instinctual elements of social action? What does an aggressive action expressed in Jargon actually look like, and what cultural significance would an action have that is transmitted through Jargon? Adorno's concept of Jargon can ignite a discussion about this. However, it leaves some problems untouched that I must address from my perspective. Adorno refrains from providing answers to such questions. He can afford to do so because he relies on premises that willingly accept a de-differentiation of the social world. Similarly, he does not discuss the specific cultural framework in which the aggressive action expressed in Jargon acquires its meaning. From the perspective of this work, it takes some imagination to understand how Jargon can play a role in integrating aggressive impulses within a coherent culture. The culture-specific transformation of aggression must also be a part of such an exposition. Adorno only partially acknowledges the cultural context in which this aggression expressed in Jargon acquires any meaning, or he does so in its subliminal form. It is evident that Adorno's approach is built upon precisely such culture-specific elements of the expression of aggression.
Worth watching the interview with Palantir CEO Alex Karp where he's confronted about their role in the genocide of Palestinians: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mhNLTy5pbQ
Very cool how we’re letting a private company become the modern day SS. Especially hilarious when the dude in charge literally grew up in an ex-Nazi stronghold in Namibia.
Should be an absolute red mark to have this company or any affiliated with it in your CV. Absolutely anti-societal.
I would be very surprised if a future democrat government dismantled information sources built on palantir contracts.
They might change aspects of oversight. They might diversify to avoid contract capture.
Sorry to be blunt, but government tends to be amoral when it comes to public noise about things, and actual choices made. Agencies of all kinds from LEA out to health will ask for retained access to the joins over disparate data.
The same across the UK, Europe and the OECD. Plantir is going to do very well, into the future. Some politics will force change. The EU will eventually get robust, onshore, self controlled data analytics and management.
Isn't the data Palatir is using already in the hands of various levels of government? If so, they are just doing glorified database joins. The real issue here is if they start incorporating private data that shouldn't be accessible to governments, such as location data collected by Apple/Google phones, social media posts, interactions with AI tools, etc. Ultimately though, users should blame themselves for giving such data to Facebook, Google, and others. It's been clear from the beginning that those services were free because they were mass surveillance machines in disguise, and that every data point collected would be monetized.
Came across them a few times. There’s absolutely nothing special about the tech. If anything they’ve probably fallen quite a bit behind now. What is “special” is just a willingness to do things with data that others would consider inappropriate or unethical. There’s a market for that sort of thing.
“It was miraculous. It was almost no trick at all, he saw, to turn vice into virtue and slander into truth, impotence into abstinence, arrogance into humility, plunder into philanthropy, thievery into honor, blasphemy into wisdom, brutality into patriotism, and sadism into justice. Anybody could do it; it required no brains at all. It merely required no character.” ― Joseph Heller, Catch-22
Thank you for reading MengerSponge. Thank you. It means the world these days.
That's kind of always the secret to mega-success.
You have to have 2 out of 3 of the following traits:
Reminds me of this quote from Margin Call https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ag14Ao_xO4c
"There are three ways to make a living in this business: be first; be smarter; or cheat"
Though I'm sure people who are first tend to view that as skill or being a visionary, not luck
What bothers me is when people treat the third as some sort of virtue. I think operating in the ethical gray areas makes them feel smart instead of unethical.
Morality is not about intelligence, but some folks believe living by morals is submitting oneself to the lack of intelligence (or stupidity even). The real [evil] geniuses prune their decision tree by not considering morality so they maintain optimum efficiency.
I think Palantir is highly misunderstood.
As a technology, it is just database joins. It is just that they are able to pull in data from everything from S3 to SAP to ArcGIS, and provide analytics, visualization etc. on top to provide global visibility into any system.
The visibility can be "show me all illegal immigrant clusters" or "show me bottlenecks and cost sinks in CAHSR construction".
When we offload the moral impetus for society from politics to technology, we also squander control. Tech is tech and can be used for both good and bad. It is not that a strategy that aims to cap downsides by preventing the proliferation of technology is inherently bad, but it is doomed to fail. The evidence for dysfunction is not the existence of Palantir but in the failure of the watchdog layer of society (also called the government).
That also deflects moral responsibility away from Palantir: they have and had every choice to question the purpose of their contracts. The essence of Palantir is specifically pursuing government surveillance contracts as a lucrative, never ending source of profit.
No doubt Deloitte or any other contractor shop would be able to do the same thing - but they don’t choose to.
I am curious if you think that the payment processing companies refusing to serve legal yet undesirable businesses to be in a similar situation as this Palantir situation here?
Analogy: It's true that TNT is, on its own, just a tool, and vastly useful for mining and demolition.
But if the major vendor and purveyor happens to be Blow Thine Enemies To Tiny Bits Incorporated, developing faster fuses and embedded shrapnel, then people are right to be concerned about "The TNT stuff".
> No doubt Deloitte or any other contractor shop would be able to do the same thing - but they don’t choose to.
I'm sorry but I absolutely disagree that the reason say Deloitte is leaving a few hundred billion dollars on the table is the presence of a moral compass.
It might be. Deloitte dont specifically select for employees who dont have one.
If a selection mechanism is orthogonal to a property, it seems weird to argue that the selected subset is distributed differently along that axis than the broader population.
I wouldn't be so sure of that.
What you think is ethical is different from what I think is ethical.
The power shouldn't be solidified in a few hands period.
I think you're conflating ethics with morality.
Ethics, in simple terms, is how we treat each other. If you claim it’s intrinsically attached to something like decentralized power, it’s at the least a misunderstanding and possibly a misapplied dogma.
Yes. But also, all technologies will eventually be used as weapons. And so its important for us to understand how they can be weaponized and to consider the social cost of that weaponization.
Kitchen knives murder people. Toyota Hiluxes have powered more jihad than modern battle tanks. Our tastes, beliefs, and opinions as a society are shaped by recommendation algorithms run by facebook/instagram/twitter, to our profound detriment (personal opinion).
> And so its important for us to understand how they can be weaponized and to consider the social cost of that weaponization.
To be clear, I absolutely agree. Plenty of tech is double-edged. And Palantir very much so.
Let me restate my point. Palantir (or that class of tech products) is powerful at enabling visibility over a complex system. But visibility is not decisions, it is an input to decisions. If you had real-time telemetry from every single stomach, you could maybe automatically dispatch drones with food wherever someone is starving. Or you could use the data as a high-frequency indicator for a successful invasion. Morality is downstream of decisions not data.
Palantir is not double edged, technology is pretty much by definition an application and Palantir is applying in exactly one direction.
"oh it's just database joins" is about like me ripping your arms off and describing it as "chemical reactions"
No, you've only heard about one application of it. Airbus and Palantir built something so powerful they productized it and now sell it to airlines to help manage their fleet
https://aircraft.airbus.com/en/services/enhance/skywise-data...
They have a thriving commercial business outside of their government work. (Disclaimer: long PLTR)
That link is more marketing than substance. Is there any data on how well these models perform? For example, how well does their predictive maintenance work, how much risk-adjusted money savings does it provide, what data streams does it require?
> "oh it's just database joins" is about like me ripping your arms off and describing it as "chemical reactions"
This argument is both inconsistent and counterproductive.
Inconsistent as in, the harm to me from having my arms being ripped off comes from you deciding to effect the intent to harm me. No photograph or x-ray of my arms can produce the intent of wanting to harm me.
Counterproductive as in, the "good vs bad" framing is pointless because it does not help with solutions. If your solution is to ban joins, you will have a hard time gaining traction for your cause. Strategic advocacy requires understanding axes along which you may be able to produce a coherent argument and gain leverage. "Ban joins" does not help.
The root-cause of all of this isn't evil government, or data analytics, or joins, or even evil company.
Its data collection. Its privacy. If were waiting around for the day people start acting ethically, we'll experience the heat death of the universe.
Governments can always turn evil. Companies can always be compelled. People can always turn evil.
We need to not give them the ammunition. We've cornered ourselves into a situation where we sacrifice our data and privacy, and we are forced to blindly trust it will not be used against us.
If we do not collect data, we cannot have data breaches. If we do not collect data, we cannot have mass surveillance. If we do not collect data, we cannot have wiretapping.
We've simply allowed and encouraged tech companies to collect as much data as humanly possible. That starts with Google, Meta, et al. We then trust they will not abuse it.
But they certainly can, and they certainly will. What is done now cannot be undone. We cannot take back data immortalized. But, what we can do is prevent new data collection.
Use private services. Run software locally when feasible. Deny analytics. Block advertisments. Use end to end ecryption. Etc.
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A good government having better information technology allows it to do more to serve our interests.
Palantir is still a tumor. We don't need people profiting off database joins, Oracle did that and became the most hated company on the planet. If the surveillance industry ends up resembling the other "rice bowl" military contractors, American taxpayers will suffer most. It will inevitably become a cost treadmill with infinite billable hours, Congress has seen this happen hundreds of times.
In truth, the rest of your arguement is fully correct. Palantir is often portrayed as the "hacking American businesses" group, but that's NSO. Palantir is merely buying out the data from morally-flexible telecoms and capricious cookie-laden websites. There is an uncomfortable truth about networked technology that America has swept under the rug for decades, and now we have entire businesses as a symptom of that failure. It's a sickening precedent for a free society.
I'd like to believe in a political solution to this. I've yet to see one, and the consequences of the Snowden leaks suggest we may never correct course here in America.
>Tech is tech and can be used for both good and bad
It's not that simple, since tech also enables bad that was previously not possible.
Just quibbling, but obviously tech also enables good that was previously not possible.
Sure. And if that bad it enables is worse than the good it enables, then tech is not really that neutral.
Correct, but then there's all sorts of value judgments involved. And things that are "good" just become part of the background. Makes me think of Louis C.K. and his "Everything is Amazing and Nobody is Happy" bit but now that sort of highlights the double-edgedness of things.
>>> Just quibbling, but obviously tech also enables good that was previously not possible.
>> Sure. And if that bad it enables is worse than the good it enables, then tech is not really that neutral.
> Correct, but then there's all sorts of value judgments involved.
The problem is when the form of "bad" enabled has no remedy. For example, identifying potential dissidents and their "network of associates" to authoritarian regimes. In these cases, there is no amount of "things that are 'good'" which can offset the "bad".
The problem with Palantir is they target gov. agencies.
Most of the time companies who have systems like Palantir, I’m thinking the SAP, Oracle, blah Blah, have to report earnings to the street through a 10k or have to comply with regulations like Sarbanes Oxley.
They will also have in-house IT staff to monitor the logs etc.
The programs installing the Foundry system have an incentive to hide the data from prying eyes and therefore it never leaves the Palantir ecosystem. The government doesn’t hire independent consultants, auditors etc to confirm if it’s being used or not.
They simply have to demonstrate trustworthiness to a security officer and hope an IG doesn’t have an external equivalent of a Forward deployed engineer.
So while the technology is mediocre, it’s the nebulousness or the lack of audit-ability and the are the people writing checks the same people signing them.
So I sympathize with Karp talking about technology being fine it’s the apparatus surrounding it that says “just trust us” that gives pause, especially in today’s culture of conflict.
If I told you that 90% of all transactions get routed through a foreign companies software, you might pause but it’s been like that for years (SAP). The difference is there are controls in place.
Being a daily user of Foundry, I really see Foundry as a scalable implementation of the SemanticWeb / LinkedData principles.
Not to go [again] in the technical debate, I will summarise their stack: they use Spark as their foundation, with a simple pattern of materialisationAsTables when needed, possible synchronisation to RDBMS or to a graph database with a strong ontological layer on top.
They then provide a web app stack and a low code/noCode dev environment. [there are other components in the platform, but let’s keep it simple].
So no IT rocket science here, but the UX mostly hides all the IT bricks under a pure data oriented workflow. [very few of my colleagues know what python, spark, AWS are].
Three comments on this: could anyone rebuild such a platform? Yes. Is it worth it? Most companies will say no. Do SAP analytics tools compete? Time will tell.
Really in Foundry the scalability is MASSIVE ! [but keep in mind that this is an analytics platform, not a write-oriented platform]
Now let’s switch to the political side of [the company called] Palantir:
Can such a platform be used by Santa Claus to monitor the data for the next Christmas? yes
Can someone decide to aggregate all the data of all the citizens and hope to do mass control with that? Probably [but hey, Facebook/Netflix/TikTok are already doing that, plus they are actively hacking your *brain*, and no one complains]
> and no one complains
You lost me at this point. The comment was insightful up until the whataboutism and "no one complains". Lmao.
> As a technology, it is just database joins.
As a business, it is far more. Their FDEs are intrinsic to unlocking capabilities for customers.
I'm sorry, is Palantir a self-sustaining AI with zero human employees?
Or is it a corporation of people that is (I know, try to stifle the laughter) supposed to have at least some morality? I get it. Corporations haven't functioned as any institutional morality since their inception as a legal framework, despite the Supreme Court handing them immortal citizenship with effective privilege over any real citizen.
So far we have:
- masked paramilitary agents chasing down the lowest rungs of "at first they came for ..."
- deployed formal military to democratic cities for intimidation
- cowering, terrified tech CEOs embarrassingly kissing ass
- Threatened, capitulated universities, law firms, and fourth estate tv companies
- Massive amounts of purging of civilian institutions from any oversight
- Purging of military leadership based solely on blind loyalty to the president
- Massive fraud leading to multibillion dollar increase in Trumps wealth
- A supreme court that may as well have been disbanded that has handed unlimited privilege to Trump's executive branch
And waiting in the wings is Palantir-enabled TOTAL INFORMATION AWARENESS of the entire populace.
So back to Palantir, the absolved "just a tech firm" that has been providing turnkey authoritarian control to the US government for decades now. Of course it won't function as any bulwark against the coming storm.
Oh, I think I understand Palantir very well. Anyone that works there should know that you exist to set up totalitarianism. That is your function now. "Homeland defense" and all those weak USA PATRIOT act justifications and funding are now far in the rear view mirror.
Up ahead: Mount Totalitarianism.
Cloak yourself in doublespeak, Palantir.
I have likely marked myself for death.
> As a technology, it is just database joins
Which don't work out all that well in practice.
> on top to provide global visibility into any system.
Global visibility into the data. There's no guarantee your data and your performance match. We have so much data the quality of much of it is fairly low.
> Tech is tech and can be used for both good and bad.
You can also just lie about what you're doing and use it as a cover for violations of civil rights and federal law.
I mean, if it's just "database joins," then why is the government buying this from a vendor? Shouldn't they just be able to _do that_?
That’s called MakeOrBuy.
Why do everyone go to Facebook [/or HN] instead of self-hosting their blog?
Because Facebook [/or HN] is a bunch of highly skilled experts that have shaped the proper UX for ubiquitous information exchange between humans [/ geeks].
So we, the users, can concentrate on our own business [/ trolls].
I love how so many HN users make up their own "syntax" in comments
"[/or HN]" !
Jesus, lol.. Reminds me of when folks /emphasize/ words like /this/ in their comments. Anyways, I'm just joshin' ya. Personal blogs /would/ make for a superior internet as opposed to Facebook/X.
Tell that to my mother :)
>When we offload the moral impetus for society from politics to technology,
I mean Palantir exec and their employees are part of society too right ? They themself are making moral choice when working for such technology instead of joining tables for hospitals.
Our social contract bestows individuals with freedom and governments with the monopoly of violence to police the limits of individual freedom.
If the acts of law abiding individuals (or groups) are a net negative for society, that is not an individual failure. Fiduciary responsibility is a useful parallel: it is not the job of a sugar manufacturer to think about the public health aspects of sugar. Their responsibility to their shareholders is to produce clean, safe, and edible sugar at competitive prices and do a good job with marketing and distributin, that's all.
It’s ironic that HN threads, arguably one of the forums where the majority of users should understand a tech company and its tech, about Palantir always devolve into some weird speculative and conspiracy-like discussion. Palantir’s docs are pretty open too - it’s not like it’s a black box that you can only see if you have a contract with them. So one would think the HN crowd would know something and have an interesting discussion on how it compares to what they’ve seen, etc. But it somehow always turns mostly political and less about the tech
It's because we understand technology very well and how it can be used to further control or surveil you. The tech itself isn't complicated; at best you would have a unified protocol that seamlessly integrates with all data sources, at worst, that part is done manually, but the rest of the tech isn't new as a concept, so there's really nothing to discuss technology-wise. However, as technical people, we can see how something can be used in a bad way or at least, sometime in the future based on the current trend, and it's necessary to discuss such implications even if it's political. For example, when a messaging app requires a phone number to activate, it's essential to highlight that it could be exploited in a SIM swap attack (thus the user should not trust it) or it could leak that number which will expose this person's real identity. And in this case, having so much information collected and shared and easily accessed by one centralized entity is never a good indicator. It's also ironic that the people who used to (still?) attack China and other countries for being surveillance state Orwellian dystopias while virtue signaling all democracy and freedom values, are now okay with such data collection and processing and potential red flagging for things as simple as social media posts.
They are just a data company capitalizing on the AI hype - when the AI bubble pops, they will too.
When ChatGPT launched, Palantir's stock started climbing by selling its "AI platform".
The cycle follows a marketing funnel: AIDA - awareness, interest, decision, action. https://www.smartinsights.com/traffic-building-strategy/offe...
FUD: Awareness and interest (AI) - at the initial stages, doomer marketing by big tech to government about its dangers and regulations
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty,_and_doubt
FOMO: Decision and action (DA) - After selling, it is all about investing in infrastructure and adopting the technology
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear_of_missing_out
Sentiment shift: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44870777
I don’t think Palantir is going anywhere and preceded the AI hype train. I suspect they’re kind of an out-and-proud MAIN CORE successor. Disturbing, but the Cyber Punk genre has warned us about this for some time.
The palantir bubble will not pop as long as Thiel and his folk are embedded in USG. The stock took off when Trump/Vance came in and Vance is thiels pick
Their primary technology predates any AI hype by a decade at least, and their strength has always been in deploying great engineers.
Compare all data companies profit performance before AI came along: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44741151
For those who are looking for information and analysis about Palantir, there is an academic study about surveillance technology with useful information about the company:
Sarah Brayne (2020) Predict and Surveil: Data, Discretion, and the Future of Policing, Oxford University Press.
As the book explains, Palanatir is one of the largest companies specializing in surveillance data management services for law enforcement, the military and other corporations. Palantir does not own its data but rather provides an interface that runs on top of other data systems, including legacy systems, making it possible to link data points across separate systems. Palantir gathers its data primarily from "data brokerage firms," including LexisNexis, Thomson Reuters CLEAR, Acxiom, CoreLogic, Cambridge Analytica, Datalogix, Epsilon, Accurint. As Brayne observes, these data brokerage firms "collect and aggregate information from public records and private sources, e.g., drivers licenses, mortgages, social media, retail loyalty card purchases, professional credentials, charities’ donor lists, bankruptcies, payday lenders, warranty registrations, wireless access points at hotels and retailers, phone service providers, Google searches and maps geolocation, and other sources who sell your data to customers willing to pay for it. Yet it is difficult to fully understand the scope of the data brokerage industry: even the FTC cannot find out exactly where the data brokers get their information because brokerages cite trade secrecy as an excuse to not divulge their sources."
Why is this a concern for people living in a democratic society with a legal system that supposedly protects individual freedoms? "Big data companies argue that their proprietary algorithms and data are trade secrets, and therefore they refuse to disclose their data, code and techniques with criminal defense attorneys or the public" (p. 135). This means that, "In many cases it is simply easier for law enforcement to purchase data from private firms than to rely on in-house data because there are fewer constitutional protections, reporting requirements and appellate checks on private sector surveillance and data collection, which enables police to circumvent privacy laws" (pp. 24-5, 41-2).
> This means that, "In many cases it is simply easier for law enforcement to purchase data from private firms than to rely on in-house data because there are fewer constitutional protections, reporting requirements and appellate checks on private sector surveillance and data collection, which enables police to circumvent privacy laws"
Another way to phrase this is:
0 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Brother_(Nineteen_Eighty-F...A: By acting in contempt of the law.
Only partially. As long as the third-party doctrine is valid in the US, they can claim that they're just integrating data from private companies with existing government records.
And those third party companies can, if they choose, tell Palantir to pound sand if they don't have warrants.
The real problem is those third parties know a LOT about us, and it's essentially impossible to opt out of their data gathering. License plate scanners and credit bureaus, anyone?
>And those third party companies can, if they choose, tell Palantir to pound sand if they don't have warrants.
And then those third party companies, if they're interesting enough to Palantic or those using Palantir, might get cancelled state contracts, or surprise tax audits, and other pressures... totally unrelated "of course"
By every measuring stick of "freedom", with the Palantir Cabal strangling D.C, I don't see how America can be considered a "free state" (as per the constitution) anymore.
You cannot be free in a panopticon, no matter how reductive you try to be about it.
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Is palantir just a unifying api to google search history emails and Facebook messages and activities? I’m guessing it’s a query, background job, data request to these traitorous citizen civil liberty betraying American companies, comes back unifies the data set then allows you to run a needle haystack search on it?
Or like tableau- just connects a bunch of disparate databases that normally are very hard to connect and makes it easier to get relevant data. If every county has a different format for storing data on streetlight purchases, but there has been a code update on what makes them safe palantir tries to make it so one person can search for how many and where streetlights need to be replaced without calling up every county and writing custom scripts to parse 100s of DBMS's.
I know this example is less exciting than spying on everyone but despite how they try to hype it up it's a lot more realistic use case.
Or if you want to batch order data subpoenas
The suck up everything. Probably also got all the gov't restricted data from DOGE. The gov't does store vast amounts of encrypted comms to decrypt later in secret datacenters. And then there's prism. They are afraid of normal people, its McCarthy hunting Reds while high on coke raised to the next power
One of the most elusive big companies today, imo.
The CEO was present on the most recent Bilderberg meeting.
He is not just present but has been on the organizing committee for a long long time.
I mean look at the name of the company for pete's sake: Palantir? Sauron indeed..so much of the valley is enabling the surveillance state at all levels of society.
Silicon valley was supposed to do no evil, no wonder this generation hates tech bros
Yeah I think Thiel's fundamental basis for his investment in FB was not that it would generate a tonne of revenues from Ads - but rather - it could become a large scale surveillance tool. Which benefits his interests (it seems).
lol, Silicon Valley has always been evil.
For certain values of "always". I feel many of the original tech startups were genuinely interested in research, pushing limits, etc. Intel/AMD weren't "evil" as far as I can tell - nor the EDA infrastructure.
The social media era (Fbook) is when it started feeling like "majority of new companies are evil". Of course, if Palantir is Sauron, Oracle is Morgoth..
/Almost/ always
I'll give you Xerox.
The rest ...
Silicon valley is a place.
Government contracting is an activity.
The two should be very far apart and yet somehow they're joined at the hip.
Always have been.
In large part, government contracting is what created Silicon Valley. https://steveblank.substack.com/p/if-i-told-you-id-have-to-k...
Government contracting is the only reason silicon valley exists. It'd just be another valley.
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In a fair world, Peter Thiel would get the Jack Ma treatment.
evil company ran by an evil man
I for one support our frontline data warriors. They are doing God’s work. Please don’t send a kill drone after me. I was drunk when I said the other stuff, not thinking correctly. It will never happen again.
Double plus good.
Techdirt was a repost of a The Conversation article from August.
Some more discussion on a related story then:
What does Palantir actually do?
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44894910
> Techdirt was a repost of a The Conversation article from August.
Thanks, redirected from https://www.techdirt.com/2025/09/11/how-palantir-is-mapping-...
Was a bit gob-smacked to find out that Alex Karp's PhD thesis [0] (2002 - cofounded Palantir 2003) derives from Theodor Adorno's theory of aggression. imo reading just the intro was so eye-opening for me about the origins of what is now a behemoth - that you can trace a line from critical theory to Palantir - that I think reproducing the first 3 paragraphs here is worth it; emphasis mine:
> This work began with the observation that certain expressions have a drive-releasing effect, and this effect occurs not despite but because of their apparent irrationality. Expressions that blatantly contradict their own content offer actors the opportunity to formally acknowledge the normative order of their cultural environment while simultaneously expressing forbidden desires that violate the rules of this order. This, in turn, does not trigger cultural or social sanctions. On the contrary, such expressions solidify integration processes by making integration and its psychological costs bearable. Drawing from Adorno, I refer to such expressions as "Jargon." Jargon is not just a self-deception; it is a particular form of self-deception. It not only relieves the speaker but also integrates them into the circle of those who belong. Through Jargon, the present is embellished, rendered promising for the future, and thus made acceptable.
> However, Adorno's descriptions of aggressive actions expressed in Jargon are conceptually challenging to grasp. They slip away under the scrutiny of a rigorously working scholar. The translation of such impressions into a durable conceptual model encounters the limits of various social scientific traditions and quickly runs into difficulties. As much as the advantages of transferring Adorno's critique into a different conceptual framework are apparent, there is a risk that by relinquishing Adorno's premises, their critical rigor may disappear.
> Furthermore, this raises a series of questions that need to be addressed. For example, how can the complexity of modern society be taken into account without ignoring the instinctual elements of social action? What does an aggressive action expressed in Jargon actually look like, and what cultural significance would an action have that is transmitted through Jargon? Adorno's concept of Jargon can ignite a discussion about this. However, it leaves some problems untouched that I must address from my perspective. Adorno refrains from providing answers to such questions. He can afford to do so because he relies on premises that willingly accept a de-differentiation of the social world. Similarly, he does not discuss the specific cultural framework in which the aggressive action expressed in Jargon acquires its meaning. From the perspective of this work, it takes some imagination to understand how Jargon can play a role in integrating aggressive impulses within a coherent culture. The culture-specific transformation of aggression must also be a part of such an exposition. Adorno only partially acknowledges the cultural context in which this aggression expressed in Jargon acquires any meaning, or he does so in its subliminal form. It is evident that Adorno's approach is built upon precisely such culture-specific elements of the expression of aggression.
[0] https://saismaran.org/Dr.Karp's-Thesis.pdf
garbage company with a garbage business model
Lawful Evil-y.
Worth watching the interview with Palantir CEO Alex Karp where he's confronted about their role in the genocide of Palestinians: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mhNLTy5pbQ
Ew, even his response is so gross. Blames Palestinians for their own genocide and casually dehumanizes the protestor.
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Very cool how we’re letting a private company become the modern day SS. Especially hilarious when the dude in charge literally grew up in an ex-Nazi stronghold in Namibia.
Should be an absolute red mark to have this company or any affiliated with it in your CV. Absolutely anti-societal.
>Should be an absolute red mark to have this company or any affiliated with it in your CV. Absolutely anti-societal.
The seeds of the surveillance apparatus are already present in what you prescribe.
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I would be very surprised if a future democrat government dismantled information sources built on palantir contracts.
They might change aspects of oversight. They might diversify to avoid contract capture.
Sorry to be blunt, but government tends to be amoral when it comes to public noise about things, and actual choices made. Agencies of all kinds from LEA out to health will ask for retained access to the joins over disparate data.
The same across the UK, Europe and the OECD. Plantir is going to do very well, into the future. Some politics will force change. The EU will eventually get robust, onshore, self controlled data analytics and management.
Isn't the data Palatir is using already in the hands of various levels of government? If so, they are just doing glorified database joins. The real issue here is if they start incorporating private data that shouldn't be accessible to governments, such as location data collected by Apple/Google phones, social media posts, interactions with AI tools, etc. Ultimately though, users should blame themselves for giving such data to Facebook, Google, and others. It's been clear from the beginning that those services were free because they were mass surveillance machines in disguise, and that every data point collected would be monetized.