I really loved the previous design with the physical numpad and it seems they've opened up the platform to support more applications beyond a few blessed ones (like Signal in the past).
Really put off by this though:
> If you don’t pay for a product, you are the product. With MC03, you pay to retain your data rather than paying with it.
So you have to pay >$100/year to maintain access to your device? Why do I need to pay to retain data that is on my own device?
I'm not saying that I'm approving this company or their products, but I can definitely get behind the idea of paying for OS updates.
Part of the premium we pay for an iPhone or a Mac is to finance the development of iOS/MacOS. We get the updates for "free" but we actually already paid them when we paid the device.
Meanwhile, here it's clear: you pay the device, and then you pay for the OS.
The opposite being the product like with Microsoft/Google.
Or relying on the goodwill of other people (FOSS).
If I take the example of Kagi, I saw how much impact as a customer I have/had on the product.
Meanwhile Microsoft/Google/Apple don't care.
And on FOSS I could _just_ do the things myself, but I'm not an OS dev and I already spend some time on other FOSS projects (I'm writing this message on an Linux computer).
Donations are great but they are not reliable/predictable and they don't give you more power to influence the product.
Regarding your question "Why do I need to pay to retain data that is on my own device?", according to their FAQ:
"Without an active subscription, certain core services and privacy features will be limited. To keep your MC03 fully functional, secure, and up to date, an active subscription is required."
https://www.punkt.ch/products/mc03-premium-secure-smartphone
So the phone won't brick itself and you won't lose access to your data.
But the company itself give me a bad feeling, like Proton, trying to surf the hype and doing lots of virtue signaling.
>I'm not saying that I'm approving this company or their products, but I can definitely get behind the idea of paying for OS updates.
>[...]
>The opposite being the product like with Microsoft/Google.
But Microsoft does offer that, it's called ESU for windows. The problem I suspect is that the cost of maintaining security patches is fixed, and nobody (relatively speaking) wants to pay for it, so other companies like Apple doesn't even bother.
That's all fine but Microsoft is also screenshotting everything, uploading it, then selling you services, pushing ads, mining and training on your data and who knows what else. So you pay both ways.
This statement is wild hyperbole and doesn’t represent the privacy landscape of a default Windows 11 install. Even Windows Recall, an optional opt-in beta product only available on specific hardware, very clearly and specifically in its legally binding privacy policy says that data never leaves your device and is never sent to Microsoft.
Windows is paid for by OEMs. It doesn’t cost much (and it’s free for some classes of devices) but Microsoft still gets paid for it.
Don’t forget they also get paid for a lot of Windows-adjacent services. 365 subscriptions, Bing users clicking on ads, and the whole business ecosystem of Azure, Entra ID, Microsoft Exchange/Outlook 365, etc.
> I can definitely get behind the idea of paying for OS updates.
From consumer App Store pricing expectations to the notion that FOSS be offered at no cost, expecting everything to be free has damaged small software for decades.
There is no other way to support software. You have to pay for it.
Even with this, it still won't be able to compete with the big guys and their enormous ad funnels. But it's better than forcing them to be anemic and sustain themselves with nothing at all.
I recommend the MP02, with one caveat: don't buy it right now. Because there have historically been problems with Pigeon, you really ought to use Signal for Desktop at the same time as Pigeon, in case Pigeon starts having problems. But as of now you can't you can't connect the two (though Signal for Desktop keeps working fine if you already have them synced).
I've found the call quality and reliability on the MP02 to be great after a year of use.
[Edited to add: MP02 doesn't require a subscription.]
ive been watching the developments of sidephone closely. ive long sought the perfect dumb-ish phone and they just dont exist, the sidephone isn't perfect either but if it delivers it could be much closer. there's pieces of it im not a fan of: closed source OS (for now) and no word on if there will at least be like SDK's to build out things for it.
the biggest leap forward in smart phones to me was personally in-hand GPS navigation. that was a game changer. I really _don't_ need to be even opening internet browsers for anything. T9 phone with a week of battery life, the ability to play some mp3's and GPS navigation and.. sigh I guess some way for me to issue MFA for okta/entraid/whatever since that's so ubiquitous with workplace security now... and I'd be set.
it's wild how advanced the likes of hardware companies were over a decade ago at making miniature hardware. the last generation ipod nano (7th I think?) was this tiny touch screen device and when I hold it in my hand today it feels ... actually magic. seriously it feels mind blowing, state of the art with how small and responsive it is. like that kind of miniaturization doesn't seem to exist anymore & it's something only the hardware giants at scale seemed to be able to do since they had supply chain connections and R&D warchests to blow on designing custom components. A lot of these dumb phones rely on generalist components I think and they aren't bankrolled with bajillions of dollars to get new R&D going and tooling online to really put an impressive device together, I just never see it in these "disconnect but stay just connected enough" dumb-phones that are trying to offer an exit from the noise of modern smart phones.
that's it, i've thought about it and i seriously don't need anything else. yeah whatsapp and spotify are super ubiquitous these days but they're literally not required to get in touch with me. and for spotify, i finally did do that whole "nerd mods an ipod 15 years later thing" and it taught me something that i needed to know about myself: ADHD + spotify = bad. my last decades playlists are a mess, i listen to music _less_ because it's just an onslaught of new stuff and access to everything. something about having a collection of music i actually took time to curate into playlists..i know what's in there i know what i can listen to. it's somewhere between meditative (which is good for me) and very intentional. acquiring new music is now also very intentional, getting it onto my device is intentional. its slower, less convenient, and somehow it makes me enjoy the music experience a lot more. im listening to more music now in a way that I haven't since I was sitting on a schoolbus next to my crush and sharing a headphone with her.
all in all I've seen a few of these "dumb phones, no distraction" device manufs now like punkt here start off with a cool design and eventually just cave and fold to some full screen touch design. to me that just nixes a lot of checkboxes for me: more screen = undoubtedly more distractions and ways to be connected, i miss buttons, i just... don't want a big phone. ever. i want to be intentional about my connectivity, and that means if i need the internet i need to just go hop on my computer. if im itching to know something and im standing in an elevator or standing on a subway, i actually don't want to be able to pull my phone out and have the immediacy of an answer. i want to stay bored in my head, work on the skill of "this is important i hope i come back to it lets index that thought and come back to it later", and just learn to live with being in my own head without the constant need to have an answer or scratch a dopamine itch immediately. there's something ive completely lost over the years, basically that ability to imagine spiderman swinging from the powerlines when i was a kid looking out the window of my parents car. whatever _that_ is, i think that came with a lot of core benefits for my brain activity that generally allowed me to have a more meaningful and happier life.
People really pay 300+ € for a phone; it’s crazy to me.
I still have some ancient (pre-smartphone) phones lying around, they work just fine and do the same thing.
To be fair they don’t come with Signal but then again that doesn’t seem to work well.
Only real argument would be the battery - but the last time I tested one of my old burner phones the battery still lasted for about 5 days (crazy right…)
To be fair, your old feature phones don’t do the same thing as a modern smart phone— you just aren’t interested in doing things they aren’t capable of. I have very different use cases.
They should really just bake this into the price of the phone. Charge more up front and then offer “free” updates while also respecting users and their data.
Yeah, this is the opposite of being your device. This is pretending to own a device as a service.
I'm building a portable pbx on a raspberry pi with some power banks I stick in a backpack and a dual sim 5g unlimited internet hotspot, and switch over to starlink 5g when that happens. I'll throw a media server in there (pirate everything), and use a small portable wireless streaming touchscreen. There are all sorts of useful UI and linux tools that can make it a far better experience than android or phones. If I need a camera, I'll buy a camera. I've got earbuds and bluetooth for peripherals.
2026 is the year I leave "phones" behind - not playing the subscription device game anymore. I left Windows last year. I'll get better service, real control, and no enshittification treadmill.
It's too bad it takes an inordinate amount of tech savvy to break out - Linux is well beyond good enough for grandma or the average user at this point. There's no reason beyond exploitation for profit for the kafkaesque intrusion into people's lives and data. If you've got the capability, break out.
This product is not breaking free. Same walls, different garden.
Re: media server. Yeah. I wish there was an alternative but the modern media landscape is so broken there is no other way to maintain digital copies of your shows and movies, while maintaining your own ability to curate your ow content on a plane that isn’t just another surface for those companies to drive engagement metrics. If you try to escape, you are forced into drm locked down Blu rays or even just shit out of luck in the case of a lot of direct to streaming tv. In which case you have two options, stay on the enshittification treadmill, taking more and more shit from bigass corporations who are actively poisoning the culture, or sail the seas. Or I guess just don’t watch tv. But I like tv.
> They have a fork of an old version of GrapheneOS merged with LineageOS. They heavily marketed it as being based on GrapheneOS, but it's a very outdated version. Their devices don't have remotely comparable privacy, security, usability or app compatibility to official GrapheneOS.
>> They heavily marketed it as being based on GrapheneOS
Claim not found in article. If it was so heavily marketed, that would be in the announcement since they're mentioning other partners (Threema, Proton, the extra app store it ships...), and definitely on the product page (no mention of /graph.*/ there either)
Edit: found the specs button. It says the OS is based on AOSP (Android open source project)
Searching for "site:punkt.ch grapheneos" returns results that don't exist anymore. Articles are linked in the thread which supports this as well.
> They repeatedly said they forked it from GrapheneOS in their media interviews and marketing. They didn't keep following along with our improvements and have shifted away from presenting it that way, partly because we requested it.
And that also matches what is claimed here, they used to market based on this, they don't anymore.
> You can cancel at any time. Without an active subscription, certain core services and privacy features will be limited. To keep your MC03 fully functional, secure, and up to date, an active subscription is required.
Out of curiosity (I'm definitely NOT going to buy a Phone-as-a-Service), what exactly happens when you cancel your subscription? Does the smartphone brick itself? Does it let you flash a sane operating system that doesn't treat you as a cash cow?
Most people seem to be subscribing to a cell phone already. Not us techies, but most normies seem to have expensive phones on three year ”plans” while locked to an expensive network.
The last couple times I got a new phone the price of the phone + plan without financing for 2 years was greater then plan with 2 years of financing. So yeah, I got the financing.
Sometimes prepaid is a bit more expensive because you're paying for 28 days and not a month. You basically have 13 cycles per year instead of 12 (28*13 = 364 days)
I suspect the OP means prepaying for the year. AT&T is like $25/mo for 5GB data + unlimited everything else if you pay upfront for the whole year ($300). Prepaid MVNO plans are even cheaper.
No that's not what I mean. And I'm not in the US. A €20 prepaid data bundle here on orange is much larger than a €20 contract. And the prepay has built in overcharge protection.
The first thing I do when setting up new Chrome instance, is disabling almost every API in its settings, including Notifications API. You can always enable it later for a few selected websites (I'm using it for Telegram Web), and rest of the websites will just silently rejected.
I would bet money that 99+% of the population never goes into their web browser's settings. Unfortunately I don't know of any way to prove or disprove that.
You could also stop using chrome and switch to waterfox or some other mozilla derivative.
If you have a site that "requires" chrome, you can easily add a user-agent switcher extension to fool whatever JS nonsense that claims to require chrome.
It’s kind of a given that the average HN reader won’t have any problems with this (like who is opening a browser without ublock origin on it?) - but like 90% of the population are powerless against this literal cyber bullying; it’s really sad
The product page (https://www.punkt.ch/products/mc03-premium-secure-smartphone, click on "all tech specs") mentions a "SAR sensor". I have not seen that before, does anyone know what this does? Does the device try to estimate how much EM your body received while carrying it around or calling, or what is this for?
Yep, SAR stands for "specific absorption rate". These sensors are typically used to change how the antennas on the phone transmit (like how much power they use) by detecting whether the phone is held close to your body vs. sitting somewhere like on a table.
Like the coulometer they mention. This is a battery discharge sensor, nobody would mention this in the specs. SAR sensor and coulometer are standard by now.
Which leads to a conclusion, either the makers don't know enough to know it's standard (which suggests they aren't well informed enough to make a modern smartphone), or they do know but decided to include it to pad their spec sheet (which suggests disingenuous marketing).
They could just be transparent and know their techy customers are interested in these sorts of things. Possibly, they want to assure customers that their off-brand phone includes such features.
That would also be my reading. I'm the type of nerd who's interested in minute details of his devices. I'm looking for a new phone currently and my spreadsheet includes columns like the UFS version, minimal brightness (as measured by some independent news site), whether it has a barometer, dual-frequency GNSS, etc. It always requires retrieving info via third parties such as https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jXtRCoEnnFNWj6_oFlVW... (GPSTest database), https://phyphox.org/sensordb/, the video mode list on gsmarena.com, etc.
I haven't yet found a manufacturer that publishes sufficient detail such that I can fill out all relevant columns from their official spec page. They're never detailed enough so I can only applaud including more details. There will always be fields that aren't relevant to different subgroups of the audience...
> by detecting whether the phone is held close to your body vs. sitting somewhere like on a table
Wow, so it basically measures the material that it's near to! That's cool. I know that microwaves are well-adsorbed by water (such as in bodies), is that how this works, does it piggyback on the 2.4 GHz antenna? Can I read this sensor's output via some Android API or a device file (with root perhaps)?
The problem in Europe is that Whatsapp has become the standard for mobile messaging, and it's only available on Android and iOS
This really nerfs the whole dumbphone movement for Europeans, which should be a key market.
I went on holiday with someone a few weeks ago who is toughing it out with a no-Whatsapp dumbphone. He missed the train home because he got locked out of the holiday cottage and couldn't get in touch with anyone.
I still have whatsapp but some of my contacts don't even care to check it anyway so they can take 2 weeks to see your messages. How useful is that?
In the end I only really keep it to communicate with my family abroad and my in law's extended family in another continent. My own progeniture as well as my partner have conversation/xmpp setup on their smartphone + a laptop. While I haven't done a whatsapp suicide yet, I told them it was important to have other means of communication in case their phone died, a cloud vendor had issue or their account was suddently banned.
I used to be in a group of parents when my kids were in primary school but it was mostly useless and full of intense mums arguing against each other. I barely looked at it. My dance class supposedly has a whatsapp group but I didn't join it and I heard only a few annoying persons post random memes in it. I went once there only to see nobody there and heard it was cancelled afterwards , no big deal. I'd rather do the trip once for nothing than be spammed all year long with stupid memes.
Funny, I am european and i never have used Whatsapp, and i can comunicate with everybody i need. There's also good old sms, that i think all phones still use. Anyway, doesn't he know how to make a simple phone call? Why are all comunications restricted to Whatsapp?
I'm an European no-Whatsapp guy and so are my friends that I go on holiday with so no issue.
Meanwhile at the last work retreat they did everything through Whatsapp and it was so relaxing to be out of the loop.
I just checked with my roommate in the morning to get the planning for the day, and I wandered as I wished.
I missed a lot of impromptu events, sure. I also missed a few official events that changed place at the last minute. I went walking on the beach instead.
And for the events I was expected to be active in, organizers just made sure that I was where I needed to be when I needed to.
So I was able to completely relax and enjoy my stay.
In the end everybody was exhausted while I was refreshed like after actual personal holiday!
Although I also know a handful of (euro) people who do not have Whatsapp, and a lot of the "missing out" can indeed be absorbed as you described. However, lots of people have a need for Whatsapp which cannot simply be ignored by walking on the beach. It is all about social trade-offs, personally I have almost all apps installed, most of them (or at least the group chats) muted. Some friends are signal only, some prefer telegram etc... sometimes it is just more "social" for you to adapt to a group. If the situation is that others want something from you, you can dictate the forms of communication, however it is quite legit for people to want to be a part of a larger group. No need for snarkiness.
> I went on holiday with someone a few weeks ago who is toughing it out with a no-Whatsapp dumbphone. He missed the train home because he got locked out of the holiday cottage and couldn't get in touch with anyone.
While WhatsApp is definitely the default messenger in many European countries, SMS and calling still exists and works on every phone. It'll cost you extra because of carrier shenanigans, but it's not like nobody has phone numbers anymore because of WhatsApp.
You may be left out of group chats if you don't share the same group chat app, but not being able to get into contact with anyone shouldn't happen.
> it's not like nobody has phone numbers anymore because of WhatsApp
Except for the companies that say you should use whatsapp to talk to the support desk. That phone number won't be ringing a physical phone that someone picks up when you call it
If that is your friend he surely had your number right and possibly others? Then why couldn't he get in touch with you or others?
Most whatsapp groups end up being muted by almost anyone because they are an annoyance so they are hardly the place where you would ask for help anyway because virtually nobody would get notified.
Hacker News: No one needs it. No one uses its group features. Man Gesturing No Emoji. Just use a landline instead!
> If that is your friend he surely had your number right and possibly others?
He answered that.
> Most whatsapp groups end up being muted by almost anyone because they are an annoyance so they are hardly the place where you would ask for help anyway because virtually nobody would get notified.
Sure in a group of 10 everyone acts like you and mutes the holiday group for text, voice- and video-calls. Even on the last day with possible increased need for communication. How far can the goalposts be moved?
In my social group I was always the guy that wanted other to use my chat program. Last year I caved and installed WhatsApp. Guess what: I didn't die and it isn't half bad.
The point is not to refute that whatsapp is big, the point is that you can still function without it and a lot of people actually do with little or zero friction.
You'll rather have Google and Facebook have a part in your comms?
Before saying "E2E" please exercise your critical thinking. The OS is controlled by Google, so Google has access to everything in the phone's memory. The app is controlled by Facebook, so Facebook has access to everythig in the app's memory.
Before implying SMS is preferable to an E2EE messaging app because Google “has access to everything in the phone's memory”, please exercise your critical thinking.
Okay, now we’ve established that even your dishonest spin on the relationship between companies that provide the software and communications using the software is extremely unconvincing: that’s a dishonest spin on the relationship between companies that provide the software and communications using the software. Google/Facebook has to mount an active attack, serving you malicious software, in order to get the kind of access you’re talking about, which is risky and something we’re slowly but surely getting better at defending against (attestation, transparency logs).
I don't use google accounts on my android phone. And yeah like you say whatever access they still have (not so much IMO) they have anyway regardless of which messenger I use. And yeah I do mind having facebook involved but it's just not really avoidable where I live. I really need whatsapp.
I do however have one mitigation: I don't run the whatsapp app on my primary phone. I use a matrix bridge. The app is still installed on another phone which is left at home. Because every month or so you have to enter the pin code (apparently meta thinks us users are retards that will forget it if we don't keep entering it).
On my phone I use the ElementX app then. I did get banned from whatsapp one time which was presumably to do with the bridge (I don't see what else it would be).
I'm not sure I understood. Are you saying that you have a primary phone which isn't Android, on which you type into Matrix, Matrix relays into a phone that you have a home which passes messages from Matrix into WhatsApp? Is that what you're describing?
- GrapheneOS Pixel support depends on Google's Pixel support (and has been affected by Google's decision to open-source less of their Pixel trees)
- This OS promises to maintain the usable app store + cloud experience
- OS maintenance isn't dependent on a bunch of volunteers/donations
- You can just buy this from an official reseller rather than making your own or having a sketchy website pre-install a custom ROM for you.
I think GrapheneOS has the better developers when it comes to privacy and security, but there are reasons to go for the reliability of a corporate entity you pay for support over hacking together an alternative.
If you're talking about google delaying the release of android causing pixel 10 builds to get delayed, that's mostly fixed and there are experimental builds now. Moreover pixel 10 was released a few months ago and is already available on the latest android. Meanwhile this phone hasn't even been released and is supposedly (based on other comments) on Android 15, released a year ago.
Seems like this AphyOS is de-googled android, not sure if they use MicroG but apart from FAQ there's no mention of 'Android'.
Being android the trade off between convinience and privacy might be lesser than a purpose built Linux Phone like Librem. Their marketing copy suggests it's not for the same audience as say Librem or Graphene OS phone.
Ofcourse many of their advertised privacy features can be achieved for cheap with any LineageOS/postmarket OS phone with self-hosted Nextcloud.
€699 + €9.99/month for a smartphone that supposed to be a dumb phone, with a custom locked down OS. Punkt is losing the point what made their previous products successful.
I have my iphone 13 mini for 4 years, having a Punkt MC03 for the same amount of time would cost me €1058. Thanks, but no thanks.
So... FLOSS doesn't mean external contributions but did anybody review this, like security audit, submitting issues, anything? It's the first time I hear about it.
I own a MP01 that replaced a Nokia 105 that got lost in the Berghain after 12 years of service. I regret buying the Punkt. It costs more than double than the Nokia and is worse in almost every dimension. It is all form over function, with various obvious UX issues. I would not buy from this company again.
I'm waiting for the Punkt to die one day before I buy a new one, don't wanna create unnecessary waste. In spite of its flaws, it is rather robust so it may take a while haha.
There is a 4G edition of the Nokia 105 which would be my next option. But I'm thinking maybe if I move to a 4G phone I'd like it to have the ability to create a wifi hotspot, which none of the cheap Nokias can.
But I dunno, I'm slowly kind of getting tired of the burner phone life... It's just getting harder and harder. I spent three months in the US this summer and it was impossible without one there, even the door of this workshop I was visiting needed a fucking app to open the door, so I did buy the cheapest Samsung (my first ever smartphone). I'm now back in Europe and using the burner phone again, I keep the smartphone for the bank app and what not. But... maybe when this new GrapheneOS device comes out this year (they promised a new non-google device with official OEM support) I may bite the bullet... Or maybe one of those ink-display devices...
Love the concept, hate the idea of a €120/year subscription for the OS alone.
It’s also slightly upsetting that both Punkt and Apostrophy’s websites refuse to mention “AphyOS” is an Android-based OS, which is 100% relevant for a purchase decision.
It could be more prominent but it's mentioned in the tech specs. And it assumes that readers know that AOSP means Android... I don't know either why they hide it so much but it's sorta on there
I was also thinking about Crypto AG because the punkt website goes a long way to not mention a single name of a human being who is involved with the company. For example the imprint in the footer and the about page does not list who is CEO of the company.
Ha. That caused quite some reputation damage. However I would say infiltration and spying is more of an intelligence agency tradition, than a swiss tradition.
I bought and tried to use the MP02 as a daily driver. Quite different from where Punkt is heading now. The industrial design is gorgeous, but the software was pretty bad (laggy, unintuitive navigation - Android on such a low powered chip was a bad choice). I can guess why, but it baffles me they didn't jump on the growing demand for dumbphones. If they had just released an MP03 with identical form factor but improved battery life, latency and screen improvements, I would have bought one in a heartbeat.
For years I've been so close to ordering one of their previous generation phones, and now I feel like I've dodged a bullet by not buying from this company. This new phone is a huge step in the wrong direction.
Can someone please release a nice Sidekick like device with physical keyboard that supports Signal.
I cannot understand the nostalgia for physical phone keyboards. They are an objectively slower typing experience.
I would rather just buy a $20 Bluetooth keyboard if I wanted to do some serious typing on a phone. Or maybe get into Samsung Dex and similar technologies.
Do they actually host anything at all? All I could find was their F-Droid repository with six (6) applications: https://store.aphy.app/fdroid/repo/. The rest must come from elsewhere (F-Droid's main archive?), but they don't indicate if they actually use the rent you pay to fund the third parties they depend on.
For comparison, the F-Droid archive consists of 4061 applications reviewed, built, and hosted by the F-Droid team for free.
yeah, it seems like the target market for a privacy-focused device like this are the nerds who could do it themselves and be more confident of the results
If they're going to provide updates or privacy as a subscription, it would be much more interesting to offer the device for free, with just the $/€/CHF 10 fee per month.
Stop the subscription and you have to return the device. The fee includes some margin for insurance and refurbishing. Then it's clearly "renting a phone" and the cost is similar to buying an expensive phone and using it for a couple of years.
Not even close to security provided by GrapheneOS, ships Android 15 and the phone looks quite ugly with that big branding on it. I'll stick with GrapheneOS and Pixels.
I'm really struggling to see who this phone is aimed for. Why would someone pay a subscription for their "own" phone that is cut off from the major app stores?
If trying to hawk a subscription-based closed-source fork of open source software as privacy preserving or being "Swiss-made" weren't sufficient red flags, search the web for MP02, their last phone. Basic functionality like calling and texting often don't work, and their Signal client never work, they are selling a dream. Punkt is basically a scam
Based on how they speak of competitors and potential partners alike (no matter how good or bad they are, so long as they're not perfect, and nobody has perfect security in this internet world, only grapheneos gets a free pass from grapheneos), I half expect that this 'major OEM' will sooner or later have one tiny slip-up in opsec that makes graphene's owner think they're conspiring against them and they abort mission and start looking for another partner to begin anew
I thought this was an eInk screen- all of the screenshots show a grainy black-and-white UI. I had to dig around to learn that it actually has a full-color OLED apparently.
This is a very interesting thread to read... I can't help but remember the wishes expressed in other news threads such as 'I wish I could just pay for things to not have tracking built in' / 'This vital software component is so underfunded, no wonder this happens'
Now a company offers it and every 2nd comment has the vibe of 'Why would someone pay a subscription for their "own" phone'. I guess that means the former vibe is not something most people actually want?
I'm not sure if you find it genuinely surprising that the Hacker News populace is not moved by a device that you not only have to pay rent for, but that also seemingly does not support custom ROMs/firmware.
Besides that, the software that they expect you to pay rent for is a fork of LineageOS/AOSP, but it doesn't seem to mention anywhere on the site whether they donate any of the rent to their upstreams.
Those are fair criticisms, but that's not what I saw mentioned when the thread was young and the comments were at the level of "wait I have to pay for them maintaining the OS??". It seems people have that as a gut reaction even though they have presumably also (on average) been exposed to sentiments pro paying for things that cost money
I think it's an interesting model. Somehow, the maintenance needs to be funded, and that is an ongoing effort. Charging for security updates is not ideal, but I'm not sure what the alternative would be.
It seems like it would be cheaper and more effective to just keep in sync with GrapheneOS rather than maintaining a custom fork.
I understand that maintenance still isn't free in that case, but it seems like they went out of their way to make more maintenance work for themselves, and then they asked their customers to pay for it. As a potential customer, I would've rather it just come with standard GOS rather than paying yearly for a fork that probably isn't as secure.
Also if it's mandatory? I would also say it's desirable to prevent the situation in which users just choose to have zombie devices because security is more expensive, but making them free or making them mandatory paid would both work for that
How would they make it mandatory, though? The only way I can think of making it mandatory would be if the phone bricks itself when the subscription ends. Or if you just lease the phone and the lease includes updates.
It seems like the best approach would be to just include the cost of updates in the price of the phone, which I guess is what every other phone maker does.
People are willing to pay for value delivery and innovation, neither of which are even attempted in this device-, this is just reskinning and rent-seeking.
> If you don’t pay for a product, you are the product. With MC03, you pay to retain your data rather than paying with it.
Ah yes, more dystopian "You'll own nothing, and rent everything, including your own data" products. That's a hard no, do not pass go from me.
Technology has been enshittified enough, stop being part of the problem, and certainly don't try to pretend you're doing me a favor or protecting my privacy by holding my devices and/or data captive unless I pay an indefinite renters fee.
If they aren't selling the data, then why the hell do they want it? Want to protect my privacy? Sell me the damn device, let me do as I please with it, and let that be the end of the transaction. Keep your damn telemetry, backdoors, dark patterns, bloatware and subscription bullshit off it.
Huge disappointment that it's just a glass rectangle with a modified OS.
What made previous Punkt models cool is that they were "dumb+" phones. They did what you needed them to, and nothing else. In exchange, you got a device that fit easily in your pocket.
Now that it's a big touch screen, you've got apps, complexity, and ultimately no differentiator from any other smartphone.
Well they really destroyed everything that I knew was Punkt: Great design, minimalist, e-ink like displays with an android cheap design, no e-ink, and Phone as a Service? are you kidding us?
I really loved the previous design with the physical numpad and it seems they've opened up the platform to support more applications beyond a few blessed ones (like Signal in the past).
Really put off by this though:
> If you don’t pay for a product, you are the product. With MC03, you pay to retain your data rather than paying with it.
So you have to pay >$100/year to maintain access to your device? Why do I need to pay to retain data that is on my own device?
I'm not saying that I'm approving this company or their products, but I can definitely get behind the idea of paying for OS updates.
Part of the premium we pay for an iPhone or a Mac is to finance the development of iOS/MacOS. We get the updates for "free" but we actually already paid them when we paid the device.
Meanwhile, here it's clear: you pay the device, and then you pay for the OS.
The opposite being the product like with Microsoft/Google.
Or relying on the goodwill of other people (FOSS).
If I take the example of Kagi, I saw how much impact as a customer I have/had on the product.
Meanwhile Microsoft/Google/Apple don't care.
And on FOSS I could _just_ do the things myself, but I'm not an OS dev and I already spend some time on other FOSS projects (I'm writing this message on an Linux computer). Donations are great but they are not reliable/predictable and they don't give you more power to influence the product.
Regarding your question "Why do I need to pay to retain data that is on my own device?", according to their FAQ: "Without an active subscription, certain core services and privacy features will be limited. To keep your MC03 fully functional, secure, and up to date, an active subscription is required." https://www.punkt.ch/products/mc03-premium-secure-smartphone
So the phone won't brick itself and you won't lose access to your data.
But the company itself give me a bad feeling, like Proton, trying to surf the hype and doing lots of virtue signaling.
>I'm not saying that I'm approving this company or their products, but I can definitely get behind the idea of paying for OS updates.
>[...]
>The opposite being the product like with Microsoft/Google.
But Microsoft does offer that, it's called ESU for windows. The problem I suspect is that the cost of maintaining security patches is fixed, and nobody (relatively speaking) wants to pay for it, so other companies like Apple doesn't even bother.
That's all fine but Microsoft is also screenshotting everything, uploading it, then selling you services, pushing ads, mining and training on your data and who knows what else. So you pay both ways.
This statement is wild hyperbole and doesn’t represent the privacy landscape of a default Windows 11 install. Even Windows Recall, an optional opt-in beta product only available on specific hardware, very clearly and specifically in its legally binding privacy policy says that data never leaves your device and is never sent to Microsoft.
Windows is paid for by OEMs. It doesn’t cost much (and it’s free for some classes of devices) but Microsoft still gets paid for it.
Don’t forget they also get paid for a lot of Windows-adjacent services. 365 subscriptions, Bing users clicking on ads, and the whole business ecosystem of Azure, Entra ID, Microsoft Exchange/Outlook 365, etc.
It’s a stupid business model for this product category and shows their leadership doesn’t understand the market.
If you buy a Pixel and flash GrapheneOS, you’re getting a better secured phone, better phone hardware, and for less money if you shop smart.
The only reason you’d buy this product over that solution is that you literally don’t know any better.
If they want to monetize their OS they should just do what every other phone manufacturer does and sell optional but integrated services.
There’s no need to push them as mandatory because a lot of people will end up with them anyway (e.g., iCloud+, Samsung whatever, and Google One).
> I can definitely get behind the idea of paying for OS updates.
From consumer App Store pricing expectations to the notion that FOSS be offered at no cost, expecting everything to be free has damaged small software for decades.
There is no other way to support software. You have to pay for it.
Even with this, it still won't be able to compete with the big guys and their enormous ad funnels. But it's better than forcing them to be anemic and sustain themselves with nothing at all.
We have to pay to maintain the things we want.
> I really loved the previous design with the physical numpad
That's their MP02, different product line, which is pretty much just talk and text plus Signal ("Pigeon" on the MP02): https://www.punkt.ch/products/mp02-4g-minimalist-phone
I recommend the MP02, with one caveat: don't buy it right now. Because there have historically been problems with Pigeon, you really ought to use Signal for Desktop at the same time as Pigeon, in case Pigeon starts having problems. But as of now you can't you can't connect the two (though Signal for Desktop keeps working fine if you already have them synced).
I've found the call quality and reliability on the MP02 to be great after a year of use.
[Edited to add: MP02 doesn't require a subscription.]
ive been watching the developments of sidephone closely. ive long sought the perfect dumb-ish phone and they just dont exist, the sidephone isn't perfect either but if it delivers it could be much closer. there's pieces of it im not a fan of: closed source OS (for now) and no word on if there will at least be like SDK's to build out things for it.
the biggest leap forward in smart phones to me was personally in-hand GPS navigation. that was a game changer. I really _don't_ need to be even opening internet browsers for anything. T9 phone with a week of battery life, the ability to play some mp3's and GPS navigation and.. sigh I guess some way for me to issue MFA for okta/entraid/whatever since that's so ubiquitous with workplace security now... and I'd be set.
it's wild how advanced the likes of hardware companies were over a decade ago at making miniature hardware. the last generation ipod nano (7th I think?) was this tiny touch screen device and when I hold it in my hand today it feels ... actually magic. seriously it feels mind blowing, state of the art with how small and responsive it is. like that kind of miniaturization doesn't seem to exist anymore & it's something only the hardware giants at scale seemed to be able to do since they had supply chain connections and R&D warchests to blow on designing custom components. A lot of these dumb phones rely on generalist components I think and they aren't bankrolled with bajillions of dollars to get new R&D going and tooling online to really put an impressive device together, I just never see it in these "disconnect but stay just connected enough" dumb-phones that are trying to offer an exit from the noise of modern smart phones.
i'd absolutely cherish something that had the form of the nokia xpress music 5310 https://news.softpedia.com/images/extra/MOBILE/large/Nokia_5... with gps navigation, the ability to play music, and workplace MFA capability.
that's it, i've thought about it and i seriously don't need anything else. yeah whatsapp and spotify are super ubiquitous these days but they're literally not required to get in touch with me. and for spotify, i finally did do that whole "nerd mods an ipod 15 years later thing" and it taught me something that i needed to know about myself: ADHD + spotify = bad. my last decades playlists are a mess, i listen to music _less_ because it's just an onslaught of new stuff and access to everything. something about having a collection of music i actually took time to curate into playlists..i know what's in there i know what i can listen to. it's somewhere between meditative (which is good for me) and very intentional. acquiring new music is now also very intentional, getting it onto my device is intentional. its slower, less convenient, and somehow it makes me enjoy the music experience a lot more. im listening to more music now in a way that I haven't since I was sitting on a schoolbus next to my crush and sharing a headphone with her.
all in all I've seen a few of these "dumb phones, no distraction" device manufs now like punkt here start off with a cool design and eventually just cave and fold to some full screen touch design. to me that just nixes a lot of checkboxes for me: more screen = undoubtedly more distractions and ways to be connected, i miss buttons, i just... don't want a big phone. ever. i want to be intentional about my connectivity, and that means if i need the internet i need to just go hop on my computer. if im itching to know something and im standing in an elevator or standing on a subway, i actually don't want to be able to pull my phone out and have the immediacy of an answer. i want to stay bored in my head, work on the skill of "this is important i hope i come back to it lets index that thought and come back to it later", and just learn to live with being in my own head without the constant need to have an answer or scratch a dopamine itch immediately. there's something ive completely lost over the years, basically that ability to imagine spiderman swinging from the powerlines when i was a kid looking out the window of my parents car. whatever _that_ is, i think that came with a lot of core benefits for my brain activity that generally allowed me to have a more meaningful and happier life.
Yes to cancelling Spotify and intentionally creating playlists from your carefully curated music. Or just listening to good old albums.
Being able to be alone with our thoughts and let our mind wander and not having to pull out our phone is a good skill to practise.
But a phone with a map and gps is quite useful.
People really pay 300+ € for a phone; it’s crazy to me.
I still have some ancient (pre-smartphone) phones lying around, they work just fine and do the same thing. To be fair they don’t come with Signal but then again that doesn’t seem to work well. Only real argument would be the battery - but the last time I tested one of my old burner phones the battery still lasted for about 5 days (crazy right…)
To be fair, your old feature phones don’t do the same thing as a modern smart phone— you just aren’t interested in doing things they aren’t capable of. I have very different use cases.
None of my old phones works since the networks turned off 3G.
They should really just bake this into the price of the phone. Charge more up front and then offer “free” updates while also respecting users and their data.
What I don't get about this devices is the insane price tag. Seems absurd to pay just as much for these things as an Iphone.
Yeah, this is the opposite of being your device. This is pretending to own a device as a service.
I'm building a portable pbx on a raspberry pi with some power banks I stick in a backpack and a dual sim 5g unlimited internet hotspot, and switch over to starlink 5g when that happens. I'll throw a media server in there (pirate everything), and use a small portable wireless streaming touchscreen. There are all sorts of useful UI and linux tools that can make it a far better experience than android or phones. If I need a camera, I'll buy a camera. I've got earbuds and bluetooth for peripherals.
2026 is the year I leave "phones" behind - not playing the subscription device game anymore. I left Windows last year. I'll get better service, real control, and no enshittification treadmill.
It's too bad it takes an inordinate amount of tech savvy to break out - Linux is well beyond good enough for grandma or the average user at this point. There's no reason beyond exploitation for profit for the kafkaesque intrusion into people's lives and data. If you've got the capability, break out.
This product is not breaking free. Same walls, different garden.
So you walk around with a backpack instead of a smartphone? :o
tell me more about this wireless touchscreen?
Re: media server. Yeah. I wish there was an alternative but the modern media landscape is so broken there is no other way to maintain digital copies of your shows and movies, while maintaining your own ability to curate your ow content on a plane that isn’t just another surface for those companies to drive engagement metrics. If you try to escape, you are forced into drm locked down Blu rays or even just shit out of luck in the case of a lot of direct to streaming tv. In which case you have two options, stay on the enshittification treadmill, taking more and more shit from bigass corporations who are actively poisoning the culture, or sail the seas. Or I guess just don’t watch tv. But I like tv.
cosmic levels of spin doctoring , doesn't really give a good gut feeling , especially post anom/operation ironside
[dead]
[dead]
Here's what GrapheneOS said about AphyOS: https://xcancel.com/GrapheneOS/status/1893469596973220188
> They have a fork of an old version of GrapheneOS merged with LineageOS. They heavily marketed it as being based on GrapheneOS, but it's a very outdated version. Their devices don't have remotely comparable privacy, security, usability or app compatibility to official GrapheneOS.
>> They heavily marketed it as being based on GrapheneOS
Claim not found in article. If it was so heavily marketed, that would be in the announcement since they're mentioning other partners (Threema, Proton, the extra app store it ships...), and definitely on the product page (no mention of /graph.*/ there either)
Edit: found the specs button. It says the OS is based on AOSP (Android open source project)
Searching for "site:punkt.ch grapheneos" returns results that don't exist anymore. Articles are linked in the thread which supports this as well.
> They repeatedly said they forked it from GrapheneOS in their media interviews and marketing. They didn't keep following along with our improvements and have shifted away from presenting it that way, partly because we requested it.
And that also matches what is claimed here, they used to market based on this, they don't anymore.
> What happens if I cancel my subscription?
> You can cancel at any time. Without an active subscription, certain core services and privacy features will be limited. To keep your MC03 fully functional, secure, and up to date, an active subscription is required.
Out of curiosity (I'm definitely NOT going to buy a Phone-as-a-Service), what exactly happens when you cancel your subscription? Does the smartphone brick itself? Does it let you flash a sane operating system that doesn't treat you as a cash cow?
> what exactly happens when you cancel your subscription?
I have the previous model, the MC02. I reviewed it here:
https://www.theregister.com/2024/08/05/mc02_swiss_private_ph...
The sub is for the email account. Cancel the sub, that email stops working. You can still use any other email account and client you wish.
This may no longer be the case -- but that's what I'd expect.
Most people seem to be subscribing to a cell phone already. Not us techies, but most normies seem to have expensive phones on three year ”plans” while locked to an expensive network.
Financing a phone is dumb for most people imo, but at least it has an explicit end where you own the phone outright.
This phone requires a subscription in perpetuity, on top of the full purchase price.
The last couple times I got a new phone the price of the phone + plan without financing for 2 years was greater then plan with 2 years of financing. So yeah, I got the financing.
This was in Canada however.
Yeah I'd never do that. I just buy it outright.
I don't have a cell phone subscription either. I use prepaid which actually is cheaper.
Sometimes prepaid is a bit more expensive because you're paying for 28 days and not a month. You basically have 13 cycles per year instead of 12 (28*13 = 364 days)
I suspect the OP means prepaying for the year. AT&T is like $25/mo for 5GB data + unlimited everything else if you pay upfront for the whole year ($300). Prepaid MVNO plans are even cheaper.
No that's not what I mean. And I'm not in the US. A €20 prepaid data bundle here on orange is much larger than a €20 contract. And the prepay has built in overcharge protection.
Financing is not a subscription.
This has been made illegal years ago in Europe.
Legal in the EU but the consumer has to be notified about it.
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/PETI-CM-580731...
Network locks are not illegal AFAIK, but consumers can request an unlock.
€700 for a locked down phone, excluding €10 / month subscription of a locked down OS. No thanks
It's almost like we're being punked.
or being... punkted?
"www.punkt.ch wants to send you notifications"
Why do websites still do this? It's an immediate red flag that the underlying company have no respect for their customers.
The first thing I do when setting up new Chrome instance, is disabling almost every API in its settings, including Notifications API. You can always enable it later for a few selected websites (I'm using it for Telegram Web), and rest of the websites will just silently rejected.
I would bet money that 99+% of the population never goes into their web browser's settings. Unfortunately I don't know of any way to prove or disprove that.
I've done this for passkeys.
You could also stop using chrome and switch to waterfox or some other mozilla derivative.
If you have a site that "requires" chrome, you can easily add a user-agent switcher extension to fool whatever JS nonsense that claims to require chrome.
It’s kind of a given that the average HN reader won’t have any problems with this (like who is opening a browser without ublock origin on it?) - but like 90% of the population are powerless against this literal cyber bullying; it’s really sad
It's so they can notify their customers about their upcoming payments for the subscription to continue using the OS on the phone they bought.
The product page (https://www.punkt.ch/products/mc03-premium-secure-smartphone, click on "all tech specs") mentions a "SAR sensor". I have not seen that before, does anyone know what this does? Does the device try to estimate how much EM your body received while carrying it around or calling, or what is this for?
Yep, SAR stands for "specific absorption rate". These sensors are typically used to change how the antennas on the phone transmit (like how much power they use) by detecting whether the phone is held close to your body vs. sitting somewhere like on a table.
Most phones have them.
Like the coulometer they mention. This is a battery discharge sensor, nobody would mention this in the specs. SAR sensor and coulometer are standard by now.
Which leads to a conclusion, either the makers don't know enough to know it's standard (which suggests they aren't well informed enough to make a modern smartphone), or they do know but decided to include it to pad their spec sheet (which suggests disingenuous marketing).
They could just be transparent and know their techy customers are interested in these sorts of things. Possibly, they want to assure customers that their off-brand phone includes such features.
That would also be my reading. I'm the type of nerd who's interested in minute details of his devices. I'm looking for a new phone currently and my spreadsheet includes columns like the UFS version, minimal brightness (as measured by some independent news site), whether it has a barometer, dual-frequency GNSS, etc. It always requires retrieving info via third parties such as https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jXtRCoEnnFNWj6_oFlVW... (GPSTest database), https://phyphox.org/sensordb/, the video mode list on gsmarena.com, etc.
I haven't yet found a manufacturer that publishes sufficient detail such that I can fill out all relevant columns from their official spec page. They're never detailed enough so I can only applaud including more details. There will always be fields that aren't relevant to different subgroups of the audience...
> by detecting whether the phone is held close to your body vs. sitting somewhere like on a table
Wow, so it basically measures the material that it's near to! That's cool. I know that microwaves are well-adsorbed by water (such as in bodies), is that how this works, does it piggyback on the 2.4 GHz antenna? Can I read this sensor's output via some Android API or a device file (with root perhaps)?
The problem in Europe is that Whatsapp has become the standard for mobile messaging, and it's only available on Android and iOS
This really nerfs the whole dumbphone movement for Europeans, which should be a key market.
I went on holiday with someone a few weeks ago who is toughing it out with a no-Whatsapp dumbphone. He missed the train home because he got locked out of the holiday cottage and couldn't get in touch with anyone.
When you say "Europe" where exactly do you mean?
My experience of not having a Whatsapp account and being in Europe is that I don't miss it.
I'm not in a few group chats with people that won't use Signal but that's it. I've never had an issue contacting any business or any indivdual.
Here in Spain you absolutely can't live without it lol. Also telegram
I live in Spain and I don't think you can't live without it.
Sure you will get a bit socially disconnected at times but that's about it.
Well you won't die if you don't have it, no. But all my friends, local businesses etc everything is on WhatsApp (and telegram for larger groups).
I'd really be an outcast if I didn't use it.
Local business still also work with phone.
I still have whatsapp but some of my contacts don't even care to check it anyway so they can take 2 weeks to see your messages. How useful is that?
In the end I only really keep it to communicate with my family abroad and my in law's extended family in another continent. My own progeniture as well as my partner have conversation/xmpp setup on their smartphone + a laptop. While I haven't done a whatsapp suicide yet, I told them it was important to have other means of communication in case their phone died, a cloud vendor had issue or their account was suddently banned.
I used to be in a group of parents when my kids were in primary school but it was mostly useless and full of intense mums arguing against each other. I barely looked at it. My dance class supposedly has a whatsapp group but I didn't join it and I heard only a few annoying persons post random memes in it. I went once there only to see nobody there and heard it was cancelled afterwards , no big deal. I'd rather do the trip once for nothing than be spammed all year long with stupid memes.
In Ireland, many child care providers use it as the only way to communicate, posting service updates, photos etc to WhatsApp groups.
Same goes for kids sports activities.
Counter point, I had no issues on my last visit to Spain.
No I meant if you live here, not if you just visit of course. If you're part of society here you really need it.
Funny, I am european and i never have used Whatsapp, and i can comunicate with everybody i need. There's also good old sms, that i think all phones still use. Anyway, doesn't he know how to make a simple phone call? Why are all comunications restricted to Whatsapp?
I'm an European no-Whatsapp guy and so are my friends that I go on holiday with so no issue.
Meanwhile at the last work retreat they did everything through Whatsapp and it was so relaxing to be out of the loop.
I just checked with my roommate in the morning to get the planning for the day, and I wandered as I wished.
I missed a lot of impromptu events, sure. I also missed a few official events that changed place at the last minute. I went walking on the beach instead.
And for the events I was expected to be active in, organizers just made sure that I was where I needed to be when I needed to.
So I was able to completely relax and enjoy my stay.
In the end everybody was exhausted while I was refreshed like after actual personal holiday!
Enjoy your Whatsapp!
Although I also know a handful of (euro) people who do not have Whatsapp, and a lot of the "missing out" can indeed be absorbed as you described. However, lots of people have a need for Whatsapp which cannot simply be ignored by walking on the beach. It is all about social trade-offs, personally I have almost all apps installed, most of them (or at least the group chats) muted. Some friends are signal only, some prefer telegram etc... sometimes it is just more "social" for you to adapt to a group. If the situation is that others want something from you, you can dictate the forms of communication, however it is quite legit for people to want to be a part of a larger group. No need for snarkiness.
> I went on holiday with someone a few weeks ago who is toughing it out with a no-Whatsapp dumbphone. He missed the train home because he got locked out of the holiday cottage and couldn't get in touch with anyone.
While WhatsApp is definitely the default messenger in many European countries, SMS and calling still exists and works on every phone. It'll cost you extra because of carrier shenanigans, but it's not like nobody has phone numbers anymore because of WhatsApp.
You may be left out of group chats if you don't share the same group chat app, but not being able to get into contact with anyone shouldn't happen.
> it's not like nobody has phone numbers anymore because of WhatsApp
Except for the companies that say you should use whatsapp to talk to the support desk. That phone number won't be ringing a physical phone that someone picks up when you call it
I don't understand - how could they not get in touch with anyone? Surely SMS would have still worked if they were available on WhatsApp?
Trying to do an ELIHN here...
On a holiday of 10 people, everybody exchanging numbers means 10x9/2 = 45 actions, with many of those edges between strangers (higher cost edge)
Each person adding their friend to the Whatsapp group is 9 actions, with all edges between friends (low-cost edge)
So in practice, only the second one happens. He had one other person's number, but that particular person didn't check their phone.
What the heck is an ELIHN?
Explain Like I'm Hacker News
If that is your friend he surely had your number right and possibly others? Then why couldn't he get in touch with you or others?
Most whatsapp groups end up being muted by almost anyone because they are an annoyance so they are hardly the place where you would ask for help anyway because virtually nobody would get notified.
This thread is peak Hacker News!
WhatsApp is undoubtedly big in Europe: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1005178/share-population...
Hacker News: No one needs it. No one uses its group features. Man Gesturing No Emoji. Just use a landline instead!
> If that is your friend he surely had your number right and possibly others?
He answered that.
> Most whatsapp groups end up being muted by almost anyone because they are an annoyance so they are hardly the place where you would ask for help anyway because virtually nobody would get notified.
Sure in a group of 10 everyone acts like you and mutes the holiday group for text, voice- and video-calls. Even on the last day with possible increased need for communication. How far can the goalposts be moved?
In my social group I was always the guy that wanted other to use my chat program. Last year I caved and installed WhatsApp. Guess what: I didn't die and it isn't half bad.
The point is not to refute that whatsapp is big, the point is that you can still function without it and a lot of people actually do with little or zero friction.
I have not used SMS in many years. Nor RCS. I don't want my mobile provider to have any part in my Comms besides moving bytes around.
You'll rather have Google and Facebook have a part in your comms?
Before saying "E2E" please exercise your critical thinking. The OS is controlled by Google, so Google has access to everything in the phone's memory. The app is controlled by Facebook, so Facebook has access to everythig in the app's memory.
Before implying SMS is preferable to an E2EE messaging app because Google “has access to everything in the phone's memory”, please exercise your critical thinking.
Okay, now we’ve established that even your dishonest spin on the relationship between companies that provide the software and communications using the software is extremely unconvincing: that’s a dishonest spin on the relationship between companies that provide the software and communications using the software. Google/Facebook has to mount an active attack, serving you malicious software, in order to get the kind of access you’re talking about, which is risky and something we’re slowly but surely getting better at defending against (attestation, transparency logs).
I don't use google accounts on my android phone. And yeah like you say whatever access they still have (not so much IMO) they have anyway regardless of which messenger I use. And yeah I do mind having facebook involved but it's just not really avoidable where I live. I really need whatsapp.
I do however have one mitigation: I don't run the whatsapp app on my primary phone. I use a matrix bridge. The app is still installed on another phone which is left at home. Because every month or so you have to enter the pin code (apparently meta thinks us users are retards that will forget it if we don't keep entering it).
On my phone I use the ElementX app then. I did get banned from whatsapp one time which was presumably to do with the bridge (I don't see what else it would be).
I'm not sure I understood. Are you saying that you have a primary phone which isn't Android, on which you type into Matrix, Matrix relays into a phone that you have a home which passes messages from Matrix into WhatsApp? Is that what you're describing?
This is not a dumbphone and it runs Whatsapp (and any other android app) just fine.
Why this instead of a Pixel 8 or newer running GrapheneOS and no requirement for subscriptions?
It's not for me, but:
- Google is an American company
- GrapheneOS Pixel support depends on Google's Pixel support (and has been affected by Google's decision to open-source less of their Pixel trees)
- This OS promises to maintain the usable app store + cloud experience
- OS maintenance isn't dependent on a bunch of volunteers/donations
- You can just buy this from an official reseller rather than making your own or having a sketchy website pre-install a custom ROM for you.
I think GrapheneOS has the better developers when it comes to privacy and security, but there are reasons to go for the reliability of a corporate entity you pay for support over hacking together an alternative.
I think these points kind of understate the size, funding and determination of the GrapheneOS project.
Pixel 8 or 9, from 10 it's getting iffy due to Google restrictions. 11 probably won't even be supported
>10 it's getting iffy due to Google restrictions
???
If you're talking about google delaying the release of android causing pixel 10 builds to get delayed, that's mostly fixed and there are experimental builds now. Moreover pixel 10 was released a few months ago and is already available on the latest android. Meanwhile this phone hasn't even been released and is supposedly (based on other comments) on Android 15, released a year ago.
As I understand the news from Grapheneos, there's also bootloader issues and Google stopped publishing the device tree of pixel devices.
They're not even sure if they'll support the 10a when it comes out.
[flagged]
Seems like this AphyOS is de-googled android, not sure if they use MicroG but apart from FAQ there's no mention of 'Android'.
Being android the trade off between convinience and privacy might be lesser than a purpose built Linux Phone like Librem. Their marketing copy suggests it's not for the same audience as say Librem or Graphene OS phone.
Ofcourse many of their advertised privacy features can be achieved for cheap with any LineageOS/postmarket OS phone with self-hosted Nextcloud.
€699 + €9.99/month for a smartphone that supposed to be a dumb phone, with a custom locked down OS. Punkt is losing the point what made their previous products successful.
I have my iphone 13 mini for 4 years, having a Punkt MC03 for the same amount of time would cost me €1058. Thanks, but no thanks.
>punkt.ch wants to send you notifications
pretty bad signal
AphyOS? OK checking "Free & Open Source Software" cool... but no link to repositories on their Webpage, not a great sign. Found https://github.com/orgs/AphyOS/repositories but 2024 so clearly not the main repos, found https://gerrit.aphy.ag/admin/repos via https://aphy.guide/docs/developers/platform/source-code-mana...
So... FLOSS doesn't mean external contributions but did anybody review this, like security audit, submitting issues, anything? It's the first time I hear about it.
I own a MP01 that replaced a Nokia 105 that got lost in the Berghain after 12 years of service. I regret buying the Punkt. It costs more than double than the Nokia and is worse in almost every dimension. It is all form over function, with various obvious UX issues. I would not buy from this company again.
I loved my MP01. However, GSM is not available anymore where I live.
I used the CAT S22 for a while but it just isn't the same.
If they release a 5G MP03 I might buy one. I don't see the point of a Punkt smartphone.
> got lost in the Berghain
That happened to me once. Took me days to find my way out.
To be fair the Nokia 105 is pretty awesome. Did you find any other that is similar?
I still have some ancient burner phones but it would be nice to have a recent one that is decent and not too expensive
I'm waiting for the Punkt to die one day before I buy a new one, don't wanna create unnecessary waste. In spite of its flaws, it is rather robust so it may take a while haha.
There is a 4G edition of the Nokia 105 which would be my next option. But I'm thinking maybe if I move to a 4G phone I'd like it to have the ability to create a wifi hotspot, which none of the cheap Nokias can.
But I dunno, I'm slowly kind of getting tired of the burner phone life... It's just getting harder and harder. I spent three months in the US this summer and it was impossible without one there, even the door of this workshop I was visiting needed a fucking app to open the door, so I did buy the cheapest Samsung (my first ever smartphone). I'm now back in Europe and using the burner phone again, I keep the smartphone for the bank app and what not. But... maybe when this new GrapheneOS device comes out this year (they promised a new non-google device with official OEM support) I may bite the bullet... Or maybe one of those ink-display devices...
Love the concept, hate the idea of a €120/year subscription for the OS alone.
It’s also slightly upsetting that both Punkt and Apostrophy’s websites refuse to mention “AphyOS” is an Android-based OS, which is 100% relevant for a purchase decision.
It could be more prominent but it's mentioned in the tech specs. And it assumes that readers know that AOSP means Android... I don't know either why they hide it so much but it's sorta on there
I hope the Swiss broke with their traditions and its not a front for the CIA this time
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypto_AG
I was also thinking about Crypto AG because the punkt website goes a long way to not mention a single name of a human being who is involved with the company. For example the imprint in the footer and the about page does not list who is CEO of the company.
Ha. That caused quite some reputation damage. However I would say infiltration and spying is more of an intelligence agency tradition, than a swiss tradition.
I bought and tried to use the MP02 as a daily driver. Quite different from where Punkt is heading now. The industrial design is gorgeous, but the software was pretty bad (laggy, unintuitive navigation - Android on such a low powered chip was a bad choice). I can guess why, but it baffles me they didn't jump on the growing demand for dumbphones. If they had just released an MP03 with identical form factor but improved battery life, latency and screen improvements, I would have bought one in a heartbeat.
I immediately distrust anything privacy based that is marketed by the Swiss.
For years I've been so close to ordering one of their previous generation phones, and now I feel like I've dodged a bullet by not buying from this company. This new phone is a huge step in the wrong direction.
Can someone please release a nice Sidekick like device with physical keyboard that supports Signal.
This was just announced: https://www.clicksphone.com/en/communicator
Discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46467057
Now THAT is a nice looking device!
I cannot understand the nostalgia for physical phone keyboards. They are an objectively slower typing experience.
I would rather just buy a $20 Bluetooth keyboard if I wanted to do some serious typing on a phone. Or maybe get into Samsung Dex and similar technologies.
A physical keyboard like a Treo/Palm Pre, enough storage to store all my photos and say GrapheneOS and I would be in.
Yes, I'm in the exact same location.
can someone explain how a subscription-based product is a great option for privacy?
or how being locked in to a black box vpn instills a sense of having gained reliable true privacy?
It's probably to pay for all the things Google provides for free, app store hosting, review, curation, backups, synced data, etc.
> app store hosting, review
Do they actually host anything at all? All I could find was their F-Droid repository with six (6) applications: https://store.aphy.app/fdroid/repo/. The rest must come from elsewhere (F-Droid's main archive?), but they don't indicate if they actually use the rent you pay to fund the third parties they depend on.
For comparison, the F-Droid archive consists of 4061 applications reviewed, built, and hosted by the F-Droid team for free.
yeah, it seems like the target market for a privacy-focused device like this are the nerds who could do it themselves and be more confident of the results
If they're going to provide updates or privacy as a subscription, it would be much more interesting to offer the device for free, with just the $/€/CHF 10 fee per month.
Stop the subscription and you have to return the device. The fee includes some margin for insurance and refurbishing. Then it's clearly "renting a phone" and the cost is similar to buying an expensive phone and using it for a couple of years.
"Website `https://www.punkt.ch` would like to show notifications."
Why? What is so important that they need me to notify about?
Enable notifications and find out.
Not even close to security provided by GrapheneOS, ships Android 15 and the phone looks quite ugly with that big branding on it. I'll stick with GrapheneOS and Pixels.
I'm really struggling to see who this phone is aimed for. Why would someone pay a subscription for their "own" phone that is cut off from the major app stores?
If trying to hawk a subscription-based closed-source fork of open source software as privacy preserving or being "Swiss-made" weren't sufficient red flags, search the web for MP02, their last phone. Basic functionality like calling and texting often don't work, and their Signal client never work, they are selling a dream. Punkt is basically a scam
Has Graphene announced their 'major Android OEM to bring the OS to Snapdragon-powered flagships' [that is NOT fairphone] yet?
Based on how they speak of competitors and potential partners alike (no matter how good or bad they are, so long as they're not perfect, and nobody has perfect security in this internet world, only grapheneos gets a free pass from grapheneos), I half expect that this 'major OEM' will sooner or later have one tiny slip-up in opsec that makes graphene's owner think they're conspiring against them and they abort mission and start looking for another partner to begin anew
No, not yet.
Dupe:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46466171
Had me at “control your data”, lost me at “monthly subscription”.
Damn, so close.
I thought this was an eInk screen- all of the screenshots show a grainy black-and-white UI. I had to dig around to learn that it actually has a full-color OLED apparently.
I got interested and checked their website, but it gave me a bad vibe, not to mention the hefty price tag in addition to the subscription.
I find it amusing to see the Facebook, XTwitter, and Pinterest social buttons at the bottom of the article.
Also the site attempts to get a geo ping from your browser. Icky, to say the least. Makes their claims surrounding privacy seem a tad dubious.
I love the aesthetics of the objectives/flash looking like an induction cooktop!
> Like its forerunner, the MC02, the new model is a subscription-based smartphone
Non-starter.
This is a very interesting thread to read... I can't help but remember the wishes expressed in other news threads such as 'I wish I could just pay for things to not have tracking built in' / 'This vital software component is so underfunded, no wonder this happens'
Now a company offers it and every 2nd comment has the vibe of 'Why would someone pay a subscription for their "own" phone'. I guess that means the former vibe is not something most people actually want?
I'm not sure if you find it genuinely surprising that the Hacker News populace is not moved by a device that you not only have to pay rent for, but that also seemingly does not support custom ROMs/firmware.
Besides that, the software that they expect you to pay rent for is a fork of LineageOS/AOSP, but it doesn't seem to mention anywhere on the site whether they donate any of the rent to their upstreams.
Those are fair criticisms, but that's not what I saw mentioned when the thread was young and the comments were at the level of "wait I have to pay for them maintaining the OS??". It seems people have that as a gut reaction even though they have presumably also (on average) been exposed to sentiments pro paying for things that cost money
I think the distaste is for rent being charged on a device that you've supposedly bought out right.
Charge a subscription or sell the phone outright but don't do both.
I feel the same way about cars where you pay for the engine or the heated seats but can't use them without paying rent.
I think it's an interesting model. Somehow, the maintenance needs to be funded, and that is an ongoing effort. Charging for security updates is not ideal, but I'm not sure what the alternative would be.
It seems like it would be cheaper and more effective to just keep in sync with GrapheneOS rather than maintaining a custom fork.
I understand that maintenance still isn't free in that case, but it seems like they went out of their way to make more maintenance work for themselves, and then they asked their customers to pay for it. As a potential customer, I would've rather it just come with standard GOS rather than paying yearly for a fork that probably isn't as secure.
I don’t think they can charge for updates, at least not in the first five years where the EU mandates that updates must be made available.
Also if it's mandatory? I would also say it's desirable to prevent the situation in which users just choose to have zombie devices because security is more expensive, but making them free or making them mandatory paid would both work for that
How would they make it mandatory, though? The only way I can think of making it mandatory would be if the phone bricks itself when the subscription ends. Or if you just lease the phone and the lease includes updates.
It seems like the best approach would be to just include the cost of updates in the price of the phone, which I guess is what every other phone maker does.
Yes. Don't listen to what people say they will do, pay attention to what they actually do.
People are willing to pay for value delivery and innovation, neither of which are even attempted in this device-, this is just reskinning and rent-seeking.
So if you dislike Google's business model you have to love John Deer's?
Propose another model instead of just saying no to every option?
I don't understand what's wrong with just releasing a phone that uses baseline GrapheneOS so that their development costs are relatively minimal.
go to website, "allow punkt to send you notifications", closed website.
based on how they welcome new customers to their site, I can only assume this is the general vibe of the company also. (aggressively pushing crap)
If you don't have root access, you don't have full control.
> If you don’t pay for a product, you are the product. With MC03, you pay to retain your data rather than paying with it.
Ah yes, more dystopian "You'll own nothing, and rent everything, including your own data" products. That's a hard no, do not pass go from me.
Technology has been enshittified enough, stop being part of the problem, and certainly don't try to pretend you're doing me a favor or protecting my privacy by holding my devices and/or data captive unless I pay an indefinite renters fee.
If they aren't selling the data, then why the hell do they want it? Want to protect my privacy? Sell me the damn device, let me do as I please with it, and let that be the end of the transaction. Keep your damn telemetry, backdoors, dark patterns, bloatware and subscription bullshit off it.
Huge disappointment that it's just a glass rectangle with a modified OS.
What made previous Punkt models cool is that they were "dumb+" phones. They did what you needed them to, and nothing else. In exchange, you got a device that fit easily in your pocket.
Now that it's a big touch screen, you've got apps, complexity, and ultimately no differentiator from any other smartphone.
Well they really destroyed everything that I knew was Punkt: Great design, minimalist, e-ink like displays with an android cheap design, no e-ink, and Phone as a Service? are you kidding us?
> Like its forerunner, the MC02, the new model is a subscription-based smartphone
Nope Nope Nope nope Nope Nope Nope
> Like its forerunner, the MC02, the new model is a subscription-based smartphone
stopped reading there
I really wonder what the hell that is even about. It doesn't just seem like unfortunate messaging.
If only they had a website where you could look up this information