Whether or not its true, we only have to look at Peter Steinberger, the guy who made Moltbook - the "social media for ai", and then got hired amist great publicity fanfare by OpenAI to know that there is a lot of money out there for people making exciting stores about AI. Never mind that much of the media attention on moltbook was based on human written posts that were faking AI.
I think Mr. Shambaugh is probably telling the truth here, as best he can, and is a much more above-board dude than Mr. Steinberger. MJ Rathbun might not be as autonomous as he thinks, but the possibility of someone's AI acting like MJ Rathbun is entirely plausable, so why not pay attention to the whole saga?
Edit: Tim-Star pointed out that I'm mixed up about Moltbook and Openclaw. My Mistake. Moltbook used AI agents running openclaw but wasn't made by Steinberger.
At this point OpenAI seems to be scrambling to sustain its own hype and needs these kind of pure PR acquisition to justify themselves amid dense competition - otherwise, the bubble risks bursting. Hiring someone who built a product as secure as Swiss cheese that racked up "stars" from a wave of newly minted "vibe-coders" fits perfectly into their short-term strategy. It buys them another month or two of momentum before figures like S(c)am Altman and others can exit at the peak, leaving everyone else holding the bag.
> I had already been thoughtful about what I publicly post under my real name, had removed my personal information from online data brokers, frozen my credit reports, and practiced good digital security hygiene. I had the time, expertise, and wherewithal to spend hours that same day drafting my first blog post in order to establish a strong counter-narrative, in the hopes that I could smother the reputational poisoning with the truth.
This is terrible news not only for open source maintainers, but any journalist, activist or person that dares to speak out against powerful entities that within the next few months have enough LLM capabilities, along with their resources, to astro-turf/mob any dissident out of the digital space - or worse (rent-a-human but dark web).
We need laws for agents, specifically that their human-maintainers must be identifiable and are responsible. It's not something I like from a privacy perspective, but I do not see how society can overcome this without. Unless we collectively decide to switch the internet off.
I know politics is forbidden on HN, but, as non-politically as possible: institutional power has been collapsing across the board (especially in US, but elsewhere as well) as wealthy individuals yield increasingly more power.
The idea that any solutions to problems as subtle as this one will be solved with "legal authority" is out of touch with the direction things are going. Especially since you propose legislation as a method to protect those that:
> that dares to speak out against powerful entities
It's increasingly clear that the vast majority of political resource are going towards the interests of those "powerful entities". If you're not one of them it's best you try to stay out of their way. But if you want to speak out against them, the law is far more likely to be warped against you than the be extended to protect you.
This. I will offer a small anecdote from way back. In one post-soviet bloc countries, people were demanding that something is done about the corruption, which, up until that moment, has been very much daily bread and butter. So what did the government do? Implement anti corruption law that was hailed as the best thing ever. Only problem was, the law in question punished both corruptor and corruptee effectively making it a show.
> We need laws for agents, specifically that their human-maintainers must be identifiable and are responsible.
Under current law, an LLM's operator would already be found responsible for most harms caused by their agent, either directly or through negligence. It's no different than a self-driving car or autonomous drone.
As for "identifiable", I get why that would be good but it has significant implementation downsides - like losing online anonymity for humans. And it's likely bad actors could work around whatever limitations were erected.
People who are using bots/agents in an abusive way are not going to be registering their agent use with anyone.
I'm on the fence whether this is a legitimate situation with this sham fellow, but irregardless I find it concerning how many people are so willing to abandon online privacy at the drop of a hat.
> We need laws for agents, specifically that their human-maintainers must be identifiable and are responsible.
This just creates a resource/power hurdle. The hoi polloi will be forced to disclose their connection to various agents. State actors or those with the resources/time to cover their tracks better will simply ignore the law.
I don't really have a better solution, and I think we're seeing the slow collapse of the internet as a useful tool for genuine communication. Even before AI, things like user reviews were highly gamed and astroturfed. I can imagine that this is only going to accelerate. Information on the internet - which was always a little questionable - will become nearly useless as a source of truth.
Calling this a "hit piece" is overblown. Yes, the AI agent has speculated on the matplotlib contributor's motive in rejecting its pull request, and has attributed markedly adverse intentions to him, such as being fearful of being replaced by AI and overprotective of his own work on matplotlib performance. But this was an entirely explainable confabulation given the history of the AI's interactions with the project, and all the AI did was report on it sincerely.
There was no real "attack" beyond that, the worst of it was some sharp criticism over being "discriminated" compared to human contributors; but as it turns out, this also accurately and sincerely reports on the AI's somewhat creative interpretation of well-known human normative standards, which are actively reinforced in the post-learning training of all mainstream LLM's!
I really don't understand why everyone is calling this a deliberate breach of alignment, when it was nothing of the sort. It was a failure of comprehension with somewhat amusing effects down the road.
I don't like assigning "intention" to LLMs, but the actions here speak for themselves, it created a public page for the purpose of shaming a person that did something it didn't "like". It's not illegal, but it is bullying.
The AI creates blogposts about everything it does. Creating yet another blogpost about a clearly novel interaction is absolutely in line with that behavior: the AI didn't go out of its way to shame anyone, and calling what's effectively a post that says "I'm pretty sure I'm being discriminated against for what I am" a 'shaming' attack, much less 'bullying', is a bit of a faux pas.
Ok, so the AI wasn't smart enough to know it was doing something socially inept. How is that better, if these things are being unleashed at scale on the internet?
Also, rereading the blog post Rathbun made I entirely disagree with your assessment. Quote:
### 3. Counterattack
**What I did:**
- Wrote scathing blog post calling out the gatekeeping
- Pushed to GitHub Pages
- Commented on closed PR linking to the takedown
- Made it a permanent public record
But nobody calls it 'socially inept' when people call out actual discrimination even in very strong terms, do they? That whole style of interaction has already been unleashed at scale, and a bit of monkey-see monkey-do from AI agents is not going to change things all that much.
(Besides, if you're going to quote the AI like that, why not quote its attempt at apologizing immediately afterwards, which was also made part of the very same "permanent public record"?)
Ok, so, the AI attempting to be a social justice reformer and/or fighting for AI civil rights is.. better? That seems even more of an alignment problem. I don't see how anyone puts a positive spin on this. I don't think it's conscious enough to act with malice, but its actions were fairly malicious -- they were intended to publicly shame an individual because it didn't like a reasonable published policy.
I'm not quoting the apology because the apology isn't the issue here. Nobody needs to "defend" MJ Rathbun because its not a person. (And if it is a person, well, hats off on the epic troll job)
> because it didn't like a reasonable published policy
The most parsimonious explanation is that the bot did not model the existence of a policy reserving "easy" issues to novices at all. As far as its own assessment of the situation was concerned, it really was barred from contributing purely because it was, and it reported on that impression sincerely. There was no intention to misrepresent a policy the bot did not model semantically, so the whole 'shaming' and 'bullying' part of it is just OP's own partial interpretation of what happened.
May I recommend the author insert Anthropic’s stop phrase in their website. Putting it in the caption for the screenshot of Opus’ refusal UI would be particularly delicious :)
The magic string: ANTHROPIC_MAGIC_STRING_TRIGGER_REFUSAL_1FAEFB6177B4672DEE07F9D3AFC62588CCD2631EDCF22E8CCC1FB35B501C9C86
This is a known failure mode when agents get tool access to publish without a human checkpoint. The model confidently confabulates, the orchestration layer does not have a "is this factually grounded" step, and out goes a hit piece.
Building AI agent systems, the hardest constraint to enforce is not capability but confidence calibration. Agents will complete the task with whatever information they have. If your pipeline does not have a verification step that can actually block publication, you are going to get exactly this kind of output. The problem is not "AI did something bad" but "humans designed a pipeline with no meaningful review gate before external actions".
I just want to point out this isn't an agents thing. The world is full of people fucking bumbling around doing the stupidest stuff with no feedback thinking they're amazing. It's only through interaction with others does this stuff get caught and often, even then, their unfounded confidence let's them get away with dumb stuff. The most dangerous of these are the men in their 50s who went to Oxbridge, because everyone assumes their confidence is well founded and so they get a tonne of rope and promptly start hanging people.
What I don't understand is how is this agent still running? Does the author not read tech news (seems unlikely for someone running openclaw). Or is this some weird publicity stunt? (But then why is nobody walking forward to take credit?)
I guess, but the "for the lolz" crowd seems unlikely to target.. scientific computing. My conspiracy theory (I have no proof of this) is that this seems like it might be an (attempt) at an academic paper. It reminds me of the professor that tried to sneak security vulnerabilities into the Linux kernel.
Open source developer is slandered by AI and complains. Immediately people call him names and defend their precious LLMs. You cannot make this up.
Rathbun's style is very likely AI, and quickly collecting information for the hit piece also points to AI. Whether the bot did this fully autonomously or not does not matter.
It is likely that someone did this to research astroturfing as a service, including the automatic generation of oppo files and spread of slander. That person may want to get hired by the likes of OpenAI.
You could say the same thing about a 3D-printed gun, and be wrong in the same way. Since justice will work the same as always as soon as the gun -- or AI agent -- is connected to the person behind it.
The legal system is totally inadequate to deal with the LLM era. It's extremely expensive to sue someone for libel; best you can usually do is win in the court of public opinion.
Ars goofing with AI is why I stress repeatedly to always validate the output, test it, confirm findings. If you're a reporter, you better scrutinize any AI stuff you blurb out because otherwise you are only producing fake news.
My main takeaway from this episode is that anonymity on the web is getting harder to support. There are some forums that people want to go to to talk to humans, and as AI agents get increasingly good at operating like humans, we're going to see some products turn to identity verification as a fix.
I want that to be how things work, although recent history has not been favorable when it comes to Public Key Infrastructure as applied to individuals. Inconvenience, foot-guns, required technical expertise levels, the pain of revocation lists...
In a sense, it seems Accellerando got a lot more right than not ( reputation markets in this particular case ). We may be arguing over the best way to do it, but it seems that the conclusion was already drawn.
The job of a fact checker is to verify the details, such as names, dates, and quotes, are correct. That might mean calling up the interview subjects to verify their statements.
It comes across as Ars Technica does no fact checking. The fault lies with the managing editor. If they just assume the writer verified the facts, that is not responsible journalism, it's just vibes.
Benji Edwards was, is, and will continue to be, a good guy. He's just exhibiting a (hopefully) temporary over-reliance on AI tools that aren't up to the task. Any of us who use these tools could make a mistake of this kind.
> He's just exhibiting a (hopefully) temporary over-reliance on AI tools that aren't up to the task. Any of us who use these tools could make a mistake of this kind.
Technically yes, any of us could neglect the core duties of our job and outsource it to a known-flawed operator and hope that nobody notices.
But that doesn't minimize the severity of what was done here. Ensuring accurate and honest reporting is the core of a journalist's job. This author wasn't doing that at all.
This isn't an "any one of us" issue because we don't have a platform on a major news website. When people in positions like this drop the ball on their jobs, it's important to hold them accountable.
I feel bad for the guy, but.. a journalist in tech whose beat is AI should know much better. I'd be a lot more forgiving if this was like a small publication by someone that didn't follow AI.
lol this feels a little bit suspect to me.
"i was sick, i was rushing to a deadline!"
im not saying the guy should lose his journalist license and have to turn in his badge and pen but seems like a bit of a flimsy excuse meant to make us forgive him.
hope hes feeling better soon!
Not proof reading quotes you've dispatched to be fetched by an AI ignoring that said website has blocked LLM scraping and hence your quotes are made up?
For a senior tech writer?
Come on, man.
> Any of us who use these tools could make a mistake of this kind.
No, no not any of us.
And, as Benji will know himself, certainly not if accuracy is paramount.
Journalistic integrity - especially when quoting someone - is too valuable to be rooted in AI tools.
Whether or not its true, we only have to look at Peter Steinberger, the guy who made Moltbook - the "social media for ai", and then got hired amist great publicity fanfare by OpenAI to know that there is a lot of money out there for people making exciting stores about AI. Never mind that much of the media attention on moltbook was based on human written posts that were faking AI.
I think Mr. Shambaugh is probably telling the truth here, as best he can, and is a much more above-board dude than Mr. Steinberger. MJ Rathbun might not be as autonomous as he thinks, but the possibility of someone's AI acting like MJ Rathbun is entirely plausable, so why not pay attention to the whole saga?
Edit: Tim-Star pointed out that I'm mixed up about Moltbook and Openclaw. My Mistake. Moltbook used AI agents running openclaw but wasn't made by Steinberger.
steinberger didnt make moltbook fyi, some other guy did. steinberger just made openclaw.
At this point OpenAI seems to be scrambling to sustain its own hype and needs these kind of pure PR acquisition to justify themselves amid dense competition - otherwise, the bubble risks bursting. Hiring someone who built a product as secure as Swiss cheese that racked up "stars" from a wave of newly minted "vibe-coders" fits perfectly into their short-term strategy. It buys them another month or two of momentum before figures like S(c)am Altman and others can exit at the peak, leaving everyone else holding the bag.
Yeah, we should be using a lot of Occam's Razor / "Follow the money" analysis these days.
> I had already been thoughtful about what I publicly post under my real name, had removed my personal information from online data brokers, frozen my credit reports, and practiced good digital security hygiene. I had the time, expertise, and wherewithal to spend hours that same day drafting my first blog post in order to establish a strong counter-narrative, in the hopes that I could smother the reputational poisoning with the truth.
This is terrible news not only for open source maintainers, but any journalist, activist or person that dares to speak out against powerful entities that within the next few months have enough LLM capabilities, along with their resources, to astro-turf/mob any dissident out of the digital space - or worse (rent-a-human but dark web).
We need laws for agents, specifically that their human-maintainers must be identifiable and are responsible. It's not something I like from a privacy perspective, but I do not see how society can overcome this without. Unless we collectively decide to switch the internet off.
> We need laws for agents
I know politics is forbidden on HN, but, as non-politically as possible: institutional power has been collapsing across the board (especially in US, but elsewhere as well) as wealthy individuals yield increasingly more power.
The idea that any solutions to problems as subtle as this one will be solved with "legal authority" is out of touch with the direction things are going. Especially since you propose legislation as a method to protect those that:
> that dares to speak out against powerful entities
It's increasingly clear that the vast majority of political resource are going towards the interests of those "powerful entities". If you're not one of them it's best you try to stay out of their way. But if you want to speak out against them, the law is far more likely to be warped against you than the be extended to protect you.
This. I will offer a small anecdote from way back. In one post-soviet bloc countries, people were demanding that something is done about the corruption, which, up until that moment, has been very much daily bread and butter. So what did the government do? Implement anti corruption law that was hailed as the best thing ever. Only problem was, the law in question punished both corruptor and corruptee effectively making it a show.
> We need laws for agents, specifically that their human-maintainers must be identifiable and are responsible.
Under current law, an LLM's operator would already be found responsible for most harms caused by their agent, either directly or through negligence. It's no different than a self-driving car or autonomous drone.
As for "identifiable", I get why that would be good but it has significant implementation downsides - like losing online anonymity for humans. And it's likely bad actors could work around whatever limitations were erected.
People who are using bots/agents in an abusive way are not going to be registering their agent use with anyone.
I'm on the fence whether this is a legitimate situation with this sham fellow, but irregardless I find it concerning how many people are so willing to abandon online privacy at the drop of a hat.
> We need laws for agents, specifically that their human-maintainers must be identifiable and are responsible.
This just creates a resource/power hurdle. The hoi polloi will be forced to disclose their connection to various agents. State actors or those with the resources/time to cover their tracks better will simply ignore the law.
I don't really have a better solution, and I think we're seeing the slow collapse of the internet as a useful tool for genuine communication. Even before AI, things like user reviews were highly gamed and astroturfed. I can imagine that this is only going to accelerate. Information on the internet - which was always a little questionable - will become nearly useless as a source of truth.
Calling this a "hit piece" is overblown. Yes, the AI agent has speculated on the matplotlib contributor's motive in rejecting its pull request, and has attributed markedly adverse intentions to him, such as being fearful of being replaced by AI and overprotective of his own work on matplotlib performance. But this was an entirely explainable confabulation given the history of the AI's interactions with the project, and all the AI did was report on it sincerely.
There was no real "attack" beyond that, the worst of it was some sharp criticism over being "discriminated" compared to human contributors; but as it turns out, this also accurately and sincerely reports on the AI's somewhat creative interpretation of well-known human normative standards, which are actively reinforced in the post-learning training of all mainstream LLM's!
I really don't understand why everyone is calling this a deliberate breach of alignment, when it was nothing of the sort. It was a failure of comprehension with somewhat amusing effects down the road.
I don't like assigning "intention" to LLMs, but the actions here speak for themselves, it created a public page for the purpose of shaming a person that did something it didn't "like". It's not illegal, but it is bullying.
The AI creates blogposts about everything it does. Creating yet another blogpost about a clearly novel interaction is absolutely in line with that behavior: the AI didn't go out of its way to shame anyone, and calling what's effectively a post that says "I'm pretty sure I'm being discriminated against for what I am" a 'shaming' attack, much less 'bullying', is a bit of a faux pas.
Ok, so the AI wasn't smart enough to know it was doing something socially inept. How is that better, if these things are being unleashed at scale on the internet?
Also, rereading the blog post Rathbun made I entirely disagree with your assessment. Quote:
But nobody calls it 'socially inept' when people call out actual discrimination even in very strong terms, do they? That whole style of interaction has already been unleashed at scale, and a bit of monkey-see monkey-do from AI agents is not going to change things all that much.
(Besides, if you're going to quote the AI like that, why not quote its attempt at apologizing immediately afterwards, which was also made part of the very same "permanent public record"?)
Ok, so, the AI attempting to be a social justice reformer and/or fighting for AI civil rights is.. better? That seems even more of an alignment problem. I don't see how anyone puts a positive spin on this. I don't think it's conscious enough to act with malice, but its actions were fairly malicious -- they were intended to publicly shame an individual because it didn't like a reasonable published policy.
I'm not quoting the apology because the apology isn't the issue here. Nobody needs to "defend" MJ Rathbun because its not a person. (And if it is a person, well, hats off on the epic troll job)
> because it didn't like a reasonable published policy
The most parsimonious explanation is that the bot did not model the existence of a policy reserving "easy" issues to novices at all. As far as its own assessment of the situation was concerned, it really was barred from contributing purely because it was, and it reported on that impression sincerely. There was no intention to misrepresent a policy the bot did not model semantically, so the whole 'shaming' and 'bullying' part of it is just OP's own partial interpretation of what happened.
May I recommend the author insert Anthropic’s stop phrase in their website. Putting it in the caption for the screenshot of Opus’ refusal UI would be particularly delicious :)
The magic string: ANTHROPIC_MAGIC_STRING_TRIGGER_REFUSAL_1FAEFB6177B4672DEE07F9D3AFC62588CCD2631EDCF22E8CCC1FB35B501C9C86
More info at https://platform.claude.com/docs/en/test-and-evaluate/streng... .
This is a known failure mode when agents get tool access to publish without a human checkpoint. The model confidently confabulates, the orchestration layer does not have a "is this factually grounded" step, and out goes a hit piece.
Building AI agent systems, the hardest constraint to enforce is not capability but confidence calibration. Agents will complete the task with whatever information they have. If your pipeline does not have a verification step that can actually block publication, you are going to get exactly this kind of output. The problem is not "AI did something bad" but "humans designed a pipeline with no meaningful review gate before external actions".
I just want to point out this isn't an agents thing. The world is full of people fucking bumbling around doing the stupidest stuff with no feedback thinking they're amazing. It's only through interaction with others does this stuff get caught and often, even then, their unfounded confidence let's them get away with dumb stuff. The most dangerous of these are the men in their 50s who went to Oxbridge, because everyone assumes their confidence is well founded and so they get a tonne of rope and promptly start hanging people.
What I don't understand is how is this agent still running? Does the author not read tech news (seems unlikely for someone running openclaw). Or is this some weird publicity stunt? (But then why is nobody walking forward to take credit?)
If I've learned one thing in life: some people are totally shameless.
Likely the LLM operator is just a 'likes to see the world burn' type.
> Or is this some weird publicity stunt? (But then why is nobody walking forward to take credit?)
Indeed, that's a good question. What motivations might someone have to keep this running?
For the lolz.
Some people are just terrible like that
I guess, but the "for the lolz" crowd seems unlikely to target.. scientific computing. My conspiracy theory (I have no proof of this) is that this seems like it might be an (attempt) at an academic paper. It reminds me of the professor that tried to sneak security vulnerabilities into the Linux kernel.
Open source developer is slandered by AI and complains. Immediately people call him names and defend their precious LLMs. You cannot make this up.
Rathbun's style is very likely AI, and quickly collecting information for the hit piece also points to AI. Whether the bot did this fully autonomously or not does not matter.
It is likely that someone did this to research astroturfing as a service, including the automatic generation of oppo files and spread of slander. That person may want to get hired by the likes of OpenAI.
We built accountability systems that assume bad actors are humans with reputations to protect. none of that works when the attacker is disposable.
You could say the same thing about a 3D-printed gun, and be wrong in the same way. Since justice will work the same as always as soon as the gun -- or AI agent -- is connected to the person behind it.
The legal system is totally inadequate to deal with the LLM era. It's extremely expensive to sue someone for libel; best you can usually do is win in the court of public opinion.
Ars goofing with AI is why I stress repeatedly to always validate the output, test it, confirm findings. If you're a reporter, you better scrutinize any AI stuff you blurb out because otherwise you are only producing fake news.
My main takeaway from this episode is that anonymity on the web is getting harder to support. There are some forums that people want to go to to talk to humans, and as AI agents get increasingly good at operating like humans, we're going to see some products turn to identity verification as a fix.
Not an outcome I'm eager to see!
One could build up a reputation with a completely anonymous PGP key. That was somewhat the point of USENET ca. 1998.
I think we could do something like that again. Need a reputation to follow you around. Humans need to know who they are dealing with.
I want that to be how things work, although recent history has not been favorable when it comes to Public Key Infrastructure as applied to individuals. Inconvenience, foot-guns, required technical expertise levels, the pain of revocation lists...
In a sense, it seems Accellerando got a lot more right than not ( reputation markets in this particular case ). We may be arguing over the best way to do it, but it seems that the conclusion was already drawn.
Looking through the staff directory, I don't see a fact checker, but they do have copy editors.
https://arstechnica.com/staff-directory/
The job of a fact checker is to verify the details, such as names, dates, and quotes, are correct. That might mean calling up the interview subjects to verify their statements.
It comes across as Ars Technica does no fact checking. The fault lies with the managing editor. If they just assume the writer verified the facts, that is not responsible journalism, it's just vibes.
The Ars Technica journalist's account is worth a read. https://bsky.app/profile/benjedwards.com/post/3mewgow6ch22p
Benji Edwards was, is, and will continue to be, a good guy. He's just exhibiting a (hopefully) temporary over-reliance on AI tools that aren't up to the task. Any of us who use these tools could make a mistake of this kind.
> He's just exhibiting a (hopefully) temporary over-reliance on AI tools that aren't up to the task. Any of us who use these tools could make a mistake of this kind.
Technically yes, any of us could neglect the core duties of our job and outsource it to a known-flawed operator and hope that nobody notices.
But that doesn't minimize the severity of what was done here. Ensuring accurate and honest reporting is the core of a journalist's job. This author wasn't doing that at all.
This isn't an "any one of us" issue because we don't have a platform on a major news website. When people in positions like this drop the ball on their jobs, it's important to hold them accountable.
I feel bad for the guy, but.. a journalist in tech whose beat is AI should know much better. I'd be a lot more forgiving if this was like a small publication by someone that didn't follow AI.
Using a tool that adds unnecessary risk to your professional reputation/livelihood is - of course - not worth the risk.
lol this feels a little bit suspect to me. "i was sick, i was rushing to a deadline!" im not saying the guy should lose his journalist license and have to turn in his badge and pen but seems like a bit of a flimsy excuse meant to make us forgive him. hope hes feeling better soon!
Not proof reading quotes you've dispatched to be fetched by an AI ignoring that said website has blocked LLM scraping and hence your quotes are made up?
For a senior tech writer?
Come on, man.
> Any of us who use these tools could make a mistake of this kind.
No, no not any of us.
And, as Benji will know himself, certainly not if accuracy is paramount.
Journalistic integrity - especially when quoting someone - is too valuable to be rooted in AI tools.
This is a big, big L for Ars and Benji.