"The solution to rust's supply chain woes is me stealing some code and vibe coding the rest" is truly one of the take of all time.
And in general, people pointing at Rust "limited" stdlib (it's only limited compared to Python) as one of the big issue and risk with rust are, in my opinion, misguided. You will never make an stdlib big enough to remove the need for external dependencies. It also creates a bunch of other problems. Actually, to take Python as an example, some functionality being in the stdlib have created a bunch of issue over the years since you can't just introduce breaking changes in an stdlib as easily. Look at urllib2/3 or xml in python. In the end, almost everyone ends up using requests and lxml instead.
There are many issues that need to be dealt with to mitigate supply chain attacks. A bigger stdlib or an "stdlib-extended" a la Boost, is not one of them.
Also, specifically for Rust, many people run in a no-std environment (anything sized constraint for the most part). So another stdlib would do nothing for them.
And that's a BIG deal because Go gives you single binaries with a stdlib that allows you to hit the ground running in a serious manner.
For example, making API calls which is the sort of thing many here do for their bread and butter. Everything you need to do can be don in Go stdlib without opening yourself up to supply chain vulnerabilities or having to choose which crate or having to keep track of crates versioning. The same could be said of crypto or hundreds of other things present in the Go stdlib.
This is mostly only true if you're writing a network service or maybe a CLI tool. Which is fair enough, since that's what Go is primarily for, but Rust aims to be, not just usable, but the best option, in a broader variety of domains. It wouldn't be feasible to have a batteries-included stdlib for all of them. (Python historically tried, and the results have been rather famously unsatisfactory.)
Also, even network services benefit from things like OpenAPI for type safety, and you don't get that from the Go stdlib.
> even network services benefit from things like OpenAPI for type safety, and you don't get that from the Go stdlib.
Sure, but the point is for the majority of people writing stuff in Go, they can get 99% of the way there with the Go stdlib.
Then, if they need to import one or two things to help them, such as the AWS Go SDK or whatever, that's perfectly fine.
It still means you end up with a go.mod file that has literally only two or three third-party imports in it.
Meanwhile if you wanted to write the equivalent tool in Rust, if you don't care you'll quickly end up with a Cargo.toml measured in hundreds of lines.
And if you are willing to put in the hours to hand-cherry-pick and make your Rust imports "reasonably necessary", then you'll still have a whole bunch more third-party imports than the Go equivalent.
It depends on perspective. Go is tailored for writing backends, so it's great that it provides things like net/http (we could also interpret cause and effect inversely here; Go provides net/http so it gets used for writing backends). Rust's standard library is actually pretty damn huge, but it doesn't index heavily into specific applications, and instead tries to provide comprehensive support for low-level operations that enable you to build a custom-tailored solution to whatever you need on top of it. Rust's stdlib is "small" if all you want to do is build a webserver and don't want to go shopping around for libraries, but anyone who's intimately familiar with Rust's stdlib can tell you for a fact that it's absolutely not small in absolute terms. Rust literally stabilizes hundreds of new stdlib functions per year.
> and instead tries to provide comprehensive support for low-level operations that enable you to build a custom-tailored solution to whatever you need on top of it
So in other words Rust forces you to either (a) re-invent the wheel (yet again !) or (b) import yet-another-crate into your project.
Of course if you choose (b), then its having first wasted your time deciding which of hundreds of yet-another-crate-doing-the-same-thing you want to import.
Its a waste of time and effort for the majority of projects where you are not working with embedded systems or trying to squeeze every micro-second of performance out of your system.
Sadly the majority of Rust projects show exactly zero import discipline, both from a pure import perspective and a security perspective. Which is why many Rust projects end up importing a gazillion crates.
Import discipline in Rust is hard work. Sure you can reach "reasonably necessary" level of imports the majority of Rust projects simply don't bother because its such a pain in the backside.
Don't get me wrong, Rust has its place in this world. But for many people on many projects they would be better off using Go and only using Rust where there is actually a serious use-case for it in their environment.
Take for example https://github.com/rust-stdx/stdx/tree/main/itoa. Its licenses and copyright information have been stripped. You are permitted to make copies of code under the MIT license, but the license also includes:
> The above copyright notice and this permission notice shall be included in all copies or substantial portions of the Software.
If the original repo were to disappear, it would be important to know who wrote the code and what the license actually is.
It just looks like stdx has copied stuff from crates and put it in a git repo.
It feels like this is worse than a package manager? As in why would I trust a random git repo to keep things up to date over the officially published channel?
Plus, with forks anyone can publish a commit accessible from the main repo, so one could disguise a malicious version of stdx by forking the repo, pushing their charges, then setting the rev:
base64 = { git = "https://github.com/rust-stdx/stdx", rev = "<sha1 of malicious commit in fork>" }
This comment needs to be higher up. The author styles themselves as a cybersecurity expert, but makes the fundamental mistake of assuming that they’re trustworthy and we’d trust them no questions asked. Software security isn’t based on blind trust like this. I’m surprised an expert can’t see that.
The other reason I don’t trust them is because this repo is 100% AI slop, even for crypto code. He posted it on /r/rust where every comment was highly negative - https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/s/4I4Xc7x7ec. The thread was removed by a moderator with the note:
Please, stop posting articles from kerkour.com.
The blog has been on a downward spiral for years, it's doomed, let it go.
Yeah that confused me for a second too. I think they're talking about stdx as a single package, even though it contains multiple crates. If you wanted to install a crate from stdx specifically, you'd use this git URL but if you wanted any other package, you'd use another git URL controlled by that project.
So as I understand it, they're not suggesting that we pile many packages into 1 git repo as a sort of pseudo-crates.io, they're just promoting the fact that you can install a package directly from a git URL, rather than using a crate name on a registry.
What seems weird about that model to me is that dependancies will not sync between these individual packages. If package A chooses the canonical git URL for package C, and package B uses a self-hosted version of package C instead, you have two versions of package C.
The whole "There are test vectors so we know it's correct" is a strong sign that this isn't actually safe to use and that indeed the people who built it (to the extent people actually did build it) have no idea what they're doing.
To save you a read of the original while still having enough context, here's the whole section on crypto:
> crypto: spec and test-driven development to the rescue
> Cryptographic code is famously hard, with many, many footguns haunting unsuspecting developers (and even experts!).
> But, cryptography also has something that you likely won't find in any other domain: an extensive public collection of test vectors, particularly for edge cases. Every algorithm specification come with a basic suite of test vectors, but there are also community-built wonders such as Wycheproof.
> These test vectors, combined with the official specification documents of the crypto algorithms were rather effective to guide the coding agents and avoid the worst hallucinations.
> Cost: ~ $30
> Time: multiple days of part-time work.
> I'm under no illusion that the crypto crate is currently bug-free, but if my experience told me anything, it's that even experienced programmers are shipping bugs in crypto libraries. So, for similar outcomes, but using 1/100 of the time and at maybe 1/1000 of the cost, I think it's a clear demonstratin of AI's effectiveness.
The author is trying to make "stdx" a thing, and content like this (I'm not dunking on it) is what you write when you're trying to reinforce the idea that it's a thing.
The big question about this project isn't its distribution, it's the core question it posed when it was first announced: are Rust developers going to seriously entertain an alternative "standard library" curated by one developer.
It's quite an, ahem, interesting mix of libraries, including three csv libraries, hyper_utils (but not hyper itself), and a ton of copied crates from other maintainers.
I hope the author has a good way of updating these with upstream fixes (some look out-of-date already), otherwise you may replace one security issue with another.
And the name stdx has been taken on crates.io, more than 11 years ago which can also be equally confusing.
Namespace pollution is an annoying problem in Rust. A while ago I was looking for a crate to help build something to interact with Apache Solr. Great, there's a Rust crate called `solr` on crates.io. And here it is: https://github.com/lambdastackio/solr-rust
There are other examples of crates registered on crates.io with prominent names that are just stubs with one commit from years ago. I'm sure this problem also exists for other languages but it feels worse with Rust, I suspect because of how easy it is to register a crate on crates.io combined with the "rewrite X in Rust" craze.
As far as I understand, this is purely a result of lack of maintainer resources. Apparently, nobody has been bothered enough by this to contribute the relevant changes.
Keep in mind that all of rustc and libs development takes place on Github.
Yes, unfortunately it is true. Sad, but I could live with that.
What in my opinion is unacceptable is that it requires you to give permission to "read your organization and team membership and private Projects".
I made a separate GitHub account (weinzierl-trusted-publisher) for crates.io which is far from ideal, because it works completely against the idea to build trust for a single unified identity online, but ¯\(ツ)/¯.
Ok, I was curious enough to read look into this, but it makes no sense under the hood. The idea is essentially that:
1. Supply-chain problems affect the Rust ecosystem arguably even worse than npm.
2. `stdx` extends Rust by adding some other stuff in Go that's good for supply-chain security?
3. crates.io does stuff differently than stdx so that's why it's distributed exclusively via git.
But none of the README or article linked by the author or the other article linked in the README explain anything about what the good things from Go are that are actually added, or what the pain point precisely is compared to using crates.io. I think the first proposition is possibly correct, mainly because I know next to nothing about Rust but am all too familiar with supply-chain complaints (as are most of us by now) whether as to npm or Python ecosystems, and there is no principled reason why Rust should be more secure unless the fundamental assumption of trusting external packages to auto-update safely is somehow different in Rust. I assume without loss of generality that perhaps the author is right that Rust's package management ecosystem is no more secure as a supply-chain than Node.js's ecosystem. The second property also might be true too that Go offers some concrete solutions to the problem, though I have no idea if that's correct and wouldn't necessarily assume that to be true.
Still, even assuming all claims to be true, I do not see is any connection between those claims and actual implementation of code, aside from talk about how stdx is AI-friendly and was generated using AI. I just don't get what this does that is any different. You're still trusting a Git repository to be valid. In fact it almost sounds at one point like the author is suggesting that the whole exercise of providing proof of provenance and demonstrating that a particular version was properly published by its author is too tedious and annoying and should therefore be skipped by utilizing a simpler stdx approach to Rust (but I still don't know what that is or why I should trust it!). Is it just me? This makes no sense.
But I always thought NPM was what the author describes - just a random set of packages with git sources, which I thought was the main issue (leftpad etc.). Isn't that the case?
What about one system that just works and is there for "ages": maven repository?
NPM doesn't require any version control, it's just a repository for files. The "main" issue (if one could be called such) around leftpad is that the types of ranges that could be specified for grabbing versions was very loose, and many dependencies of dependencies might just grab whatever is "latest".
Then, when someone throws a fit, they upload a broken version to NPM, and everyone downstream is SOL (or the package is given over to a malicious maintainer, or the maintainer is hacked, etc).
Heck, NPM doesn't (didn't?) require a license either. One of my former employers never let us use Webpack 1.x because it depended on something that depended on something that depended on a package from the very early days of NPM that didn't come with a license (it was by isaacs iirc, so it was meant to be public, but the version specified wasn't licensed). It wasn't until webpack 2.x that the versions were updated enough that all of the dependencies were formally open source.
I appreciate prople's efforts but they are misplaced. If I were passionate about this-- i'd do two things
1) A crates.io alternative which allows namespaces in package names like GitHub or alternatively. Single universal namespace doesn't seem fine (I don't think there would be necessarily changes required on the cargo side if users are willing to use full urls)
2) some kind of trust system so a user can up/down vote a package
3) Take a small one time payment for verifying a package? I don't know how this would work.
"The solution to rust's supply chain woes is me stealing some code and vibe coding the rest" is truly one of the take of all time.
And in general, people pointing at Rust "limited" stdlib (it's only limited compared to Python) as one of the big issue and risk with rust are, in my opinion, misguided. You will never make an stdlib big enough to remove the need for external dependencies. It also creates a bunch of other problems. Actually, to take Python as an example, some functionality being in the stdlib have created a bunch of issue over the years since you can't just introduce breaking changes in an stdlib as easily. Look at urllib2/3 or xml in python. In the end, almost everyone ends up using requests and lxml instead. There are many issues that need to be dealt with to mitigate supply chain attacks. A bigger stdlib or an "stdlib-extended" a la Boost, is not one of them.
Also, specifically for Rust, many people run in a no-std environment (anything sized constraint for the most part). So another stdlib would do nothing for them.
> it's only limited compared to Python
Erm ....
Its limited compared to Go as well.
And that's a BIG deal because Go gives you single binaries with a stdlib that allows you to hit the ground running in a serious manner.
For example, making API calls which is the sort of thing many here do for their bread and butter. Everything you need to do can be don in Go stdlib without opening yourself up to supply chain vulnerabilities or having to choose which crate or having to keep track of crates versioning. The same could be said of crypto or hundreds of other things present in the Go stdlib.
This is mostly only true if you're writing a network service or maybe a CLI tool. Which is fair enough, since that's what Go is primarily for, but Rust aims to be, not just usable, but the best option, in a broader variety of domains. It wouldn't be feasible to have a batteries-included stdlib for all of them. (Python historically tried, and the results have been rather famously unsatisfactory.)
Also, even network services benefit from things like OpenAPI for type safety, and you don't get that from the Go stdlib.
> even network services benefit from things like OpenAPI for type safety, and you don't get that from the Go stdlib.
Sure, but the point is for the majority of people writing stuff in Go, they can get 99% of the way there with the Go stdlib.
Then, if they need to import one or two things to help them, such as the AWS Go SDK or whatever, that's perfectly fine.
It still means you end up with a go.mod file that has literally only two or three third-party imports in it.
Meanwhile if you wanted to write the equivalent tool in Rust, if you don't care you'll quickly end up with a Cargo.toml measured in hundreds of lines.
And if you are willing to put in the hours to hand-cherry-pick and make your Rust imports "reasonably necessary", then you'll still have a whole bunch more third-party imports than the Go equivalent.
> Its limited compared to Go as well.
It depends on perspective. Go is tailored for writing backends, so it's great that it provides things like net/http (we could also interpret cause and effect inversely here; Go provides net/http so it gets used for writing backends). Rust's standard library is actually pretty damn huge, but it doesn't index heavily into specific applications, and instead tries to provide comprehensive support for low-level operations that enable you to build a custom-tailored solution to whatever you need on top of it. Rust's stdlib is "small" if all you want to do is build a webserver and don't want to go shopping around for libraries, but anyone who's intimately familiar with Rust's stdlib can tell you for a fact that it's absolutely not small in absolute terms. Rust literally stabilizes hundreds of new stdlib functions per year.
> and instead tries to provide comprehensive support for low-level operations that enable you to build a custom-tailored solution to whatever you need on top of it
So in other words Rust forces you to either (a) re-invent the wheel (yet again !) or (b) import yet-another-crate into your project.
Of course if you choose (b), then its having first wasted your time deciding which of hundreds of yet-another-crate-doing-the-same-thing you want to import.
Its a waste of time and effort for the majority of projects where you are not working with embedded systems or trying to squeeze every micro-second of performance out of your system.
Sadly the majority of Rust projects show exactly zero import discipline, both from a pure import perspective and a security perspective. Which is why many Rust projects end up importing a gazillion crates.
Import discipline in Rust is hard work. Sure you can reach "reasonably necessary" level of imports the majority of Rust projects simply don't bother because its such a pain in the backside.
Don't get me wrong, Rust has its place in this world. But for many people on many projects they would be better off using Go and only using Rust where there is actually a serious use-case for it in their environment.
How is code being "stolen" here? It's FOSS code that is being copied.
Take for example https://github.com/rust-stdx/stdx/tree/main/itoa. Its licenses and copyright information have been stripped. You are permitted to make copies of code under the MIT license, but the license also includes:
> The above copyright notice and this permission notice shall be included in all copies or substantial portions of the Software.
If the original repo were to disappear, it would be important to know who wrote the code and what the license actually is.
Oh wow you are right, thats really bad. Terrible look for the author.
stdx is on crates.io: https://crates.io/crates/stdx
But it seems to be a placeholder crate of sorts and is not Kerkour's stdx
It just looks like stdx has copied stuff from crates and put it in a git repo.
It feels like this is worse than a package manager? As in why would I trust a random git repo to keep things up to date over the officially published channel?
Plus, with forks anyone can publish a commit accessible from the main repo, so one could disguise a malicious version of stdx by forking the repo, pushing their charges, then setting the rev:
This is hugely problematic behavior of github
This comment needs to be higher up. The author styles themselves as a cybersecurity expert, but makes the fundamental mistake of assuming that they’re trustworthy and we’d trust them no questions asked. Software security isn’t based on blind trust like this. I’m surprised an expert can’t see that.
The other reason I don’t trust them is because this repo is 100% AI slop, even for crypto code. He posted it on /r/rust where every comment was highly negative - https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/s/4I4Xc7x7ec. The thread was removed by a moderator with the note:
Please, stop posting articles from kerkour.com.
The blog has been on a downward spiral for years, it's doomed, let it go.
Yeah that confused me for a second too. I think they're talking about stdx as a single package, even though it contains multiple crates. If you wanted to install a crate from stdx specifically, you'd use this git URL but if you wanted any other package, you'd use another git URL controlled by that project.
So as I understand it, they're not suggesting that we pile many packages into 1 git repo as a sort of pseudo-crates.io, they're just promoting the fact that you can install a package directly from a git URL, rather than using a crate name on a registry.
What seems weird about that model to me is that dependancies will not sync between these individual packages. If package A chooses the canonical git URL for package C, and package B uses a self-hosted version of package C instead, you have two versions of package C.
Looks like it's that, plus vibe coding (in areas like crypto!) - https://kerkour.com/stdx
The whole "There are test vectors so we know it's correct" is a strong sign that this isn't actually safe to use and that indeed the people who built it (to the extent people actually did build it) have no idea what they're doing.
To save you a read of the original while still having enough context, here's the whole section on crypto:
> crypto: spec and test-driven development to the rescue
> Cryptographic code is famously hard, with many, many footguns haunting unsuspecting developers (and even experts!).
> But, cryptography also has something that you likely won't find in any other domain: an extensive public collection of test vectors, particularly for edge cases. Every algorithm specification come with a basic suite of test vectors, but there are also community-built wonders such as Wycheproof.
> These test vectors, combined with the official specification documents of the crypto algorithms were rather effective to guide the coding agents and avoid the worst hallucinations.
> Cost: ~ $30
> Time: multiple days of part-time work.
> I'm under no illusion that the crypto crate is currently bug-free, but if my experience told me anything, it's that even experienced programmers are shipping bugs in crypto libraries. So, for similar outcomes, but using 1/100 of the time and at maybe 1/1000 of the cost, I think it's a clear demonstratin of AI's effectiveness.
Yeah, terrifyingly clueless, don't use.
Uh, yeah, this is not the writing of someone with the experience to maintain a cryptography toolkit: https://kerkour.com/nist-cryptography-backdoor
(I’m more worried about judgement calls than implementation correctness, it’s not about AI.)
Hah, length-extension and CBC mode, famous NIST backdoors.
The author is trying to make "stdx" a thing, and content like this (I'm not dunking on it) is what you write when you're trying to reinforce the idea that it's a thing.
The big question about this project isn't its distribution, it's the core question it posed when it was first announced: are Rust developers going to seriously entertain an alternative "standard library" curated by one developer.
One upside I can think is that it is easier to trust and verify one repo than hundreds.
And the chances of a rogue actor or id theft reduce drastically.
> stdx is a monorepo of, as of today, 64 crates
It's quite an, ahem, interesting mix of libraries, including three csv libraries, hyper_utils (but not hyper itself), and a ton of copied crates from other maintainers.
I hope the author has a good way of updating these with upstream fixes (some look out-of-date already), otherwise you may replace one security issue with another.
And the name stdx has been taken on crates.io, more than 11 years ago which can also be equally confusing.
Sounds to me stdx is doing this wrong more than anything else.
Namespace pollution is an annoying problem in Rust. A while ago I was looking for a crate to help build something to interact with Apache Solr. Great, there's a Rust crate called `solr` on crates.io. And here it is: https://github.com/lambdastackio/solr-rust
There are other examples of crates registered on crates.io with prominent names that are just stubs with one commit from years ago. I'm sure this problem also exists for other languages but it feels worse with Rust, I suspect because of how easy it is to register a crate on crates.io combined with the "rewrite X in Rust" craze.
> Also, you can only create a crates.io account with a GitHub account
Oh is that true? They tied themselves to Microsoft it seems. What about people who won't or can't use GitHub.
As far as I understand, this is purely a result of lack of maintainer resources. Apparently, nobody has been bothered enough by this to contribute the relevant changes.
Keep in mind that all of rustc and libs development takes place on Github.
There is some recent progress on https://github.com/rust-lang/crates.io/issues/326
Yes, unfortunately it is true. Sad, but I could live with that.
What in my opinion is unacceptable is that it requires you to give permission to "read your organization and team membership and private Projects".
I made a separate GitHub account (weinzierl-trusted-publisher) for crates.io which is far from ideal, because it works completely against the idea to build trust for a single unified identity online, but ¯\(ツ)/¯.
Multiple free accounts are also against GitHub TOS
I pay for my main account, but good point.
A clause that I think should be illegal, btw
Ignore this and just use `cargo-vet`, you're welcome.
Ok, I was curious enough to read look into this, but it makes no sense under the hood. The idea is essentially that:
1. Supply-chain problems affect the Rust ecosystem arguably even worse than npm. 2. `stdx` extends Rust by adding some other stuff in Go that's good for supply-chain security? 3. crates.io does stuff differently than stdx so that's why it's distributed exclusively via git.
But none of the README or article linked by the author or the other article linked in the README explain anything about what the good things from Go are that are actually added, or what the pain point precisely is compared to using crates.io. I think the first proposition is possibly correct, mainly because I know next to nothing about Rust but am all too familiar with supply-chain complaints (as are most of us by now) whether as to npm or Python ecosystems, and there is no principled reason why Rust should be more secure unless the fundamental assumption of trusting external packages to auto-update safely is somehow different in Rust. I assume without loss of generality that perhaps the author is right that Rust's package management ecosystem is no more secure as a supply-chain than Node.js's ecosystem. The second property also might be true too that Go offers some concrete solutions to the problem, though I have no idea if that's correct and wouldn't necessarily assume that to be true.
Still, even assuming all claims to be true, I do not see is any connection between those claims and actual implementation of code, aside from talk about how stdx is AI-friendly and was generated using AI. I just don't get what this does that is any different. You're still trusting a Git repository to be valid. In fact it almost sounds at one point like the author is suggesting that the whole exercise of providing proof of provenance and demonstrating that a particular version was properly published by its author is too tedious and annoying and should therefore be skipped by utilizing a simpler stdx approach to Rust (but I still don't know what that is or why I should trust it!). Is it just me? This makes no sense.
I'm a bit new to rust or npm system.
But I always thought NPM was what the author describes - just a random set of packages with git sources, which I thought was the main issue (leftpad etc.). Isn't that the case?
What about one system that just works and is there for "ages": maven repository?
NPM doesn't require any version control, it's just a repository for files. The "main" issue (if one could be called such) around leftpad is that the types of ranges that could be specified for grabbing versions was very loose, and many dependencies of dependencies might just grab whatever is "latest".
Then, when someone throws a fit, they upload a broken version to NPM, and everyone downstream is SOL (or the package is given over to a malicious maintainer, or the maintainer is hacked, etc).
Heck, NPM doesn't (didn't?) require a license either. One of my former employers never let us use Webpack 1.x because it depended on something that depended on something that depended on a package from the very early days of NPM that didn't come with a license (it was by isaacs iirc, so it was meant to be public, but the version specified wasn't licensed). It wasn't until webpack 2.x that the versions were updated enough that all of the dependencies were formally open source.
stdx is not the best example. The most popular package that is not on crates.io is probably embassy.
Also Debian tries to build and distribute independently from crates.io.
So crates.io is important but is not the (Rust) world.
There's no single "embassy" crate, but all the components (HALs, executor, usb, net, etc.) are all on crates io and have been for a long time.
Oh, good to know, thanks!
More like which stdx?
I appreciate prople's efforts but they are misplaced. If I were passionate about this-- i'd do two things
1) A crates.io alternative which allows namespaces in package names like GitHub or alternatively. Single universal namespace doesn't seem fine (I don't think there would be necessarily changes required on the cargo side if users are willing to use full urls)
2) some kind of trust system so a user can up/down vote a package
3) Take a small one time payment for verifying a package? I don't know how this would work.
going where the people aren’t, a well understood strategy
I don't get it, maybe my brain isn't wrinkly enough. Two things:
1. What problem does stdx actually solve?
2. Ok, it's a git dep, seems fine? Why is the choice to publish or not publish in crates.io a big deal either way?