Kudos to the Thunderbird team for improving TB so much over the past few years, it really helped that they split from Mozilla. K9-Mail (which is now TB) also strongly benefitted from this. Maybe Mozilla will start listening to their users someday...
This is a known issue (tracked at https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2007074, as mentioned by a previous comment). A fix has landed in Thunderbird Daily a couple of weeks ago, and should be released in Thunderbird 154 which comes out next month.
It's been an ongoing issue since the beginning of the year, at least on Linux. Since you're using Ubuntu (which is based on Debian), you may be using an older or an LTS version.
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2007074
The year of Linux desktop will come after the desktop is no longer relevant, but I'll be honest, I've been AI-pilled, and it's never been a better time to run a Linux desktop. Instead of going sleuthing every time I hit a papercut that previously I'd have spend hours consulting a how-to or a wiki to find the subsystems and config files to fix the problem, I can now just describe the problem to an AI agent that runs around on my system that just fixes it while I go off and do something else.
I'd love to see a screencast of this working if you're so inclined one day to make a walkthrough. If it's mostly walking away, that's even better because you could show the prompt and a before/after of it working. (Just a casual observation, and less of a request, not trying to assign work :)
I've seen so many people claim this is the future we're living in, but I've never seen it actually work as described. It's always more hand holding than I'm willing to put into an llm
I tried Thunderbird recently, and was baffled that there seemed to be no way to see received emails grouped with my responses to them (aka threading or conversations). Even grouping incoming emails that have the same subject seemed like an experimental feature.
Surely I'm missing something? How are people using it? If someone replies to you "I think there was a problem with your attachment", do you search for your sent email?
Thunderbird supports threading in the message list pane (which displays replies next to the email that was replied to), but a conversation mode for the message pane is still in development:
In the meantime, the Thunderbird Conversations add-on provides a conversation view that looks like classic Gmail, which is probably what you're looking for:
I had seen both of these. The add-on implementation is too complicated and affects too many systems (contacts, attachments, etc) that change frequently, so it had many subtle bugs and unimplemented features: https://github.com/thunderbird-conversations/thunderbird-con...
As for the Message List Pane, maybe that's something I missed, I'll take another look.
Thunderbird has a folder-based organization, so out of the box can it only group mails per folder. What you want is a GMail-view/organization, where all mails are in one folder. But this will probably not work well with bigger amounts of mails, because Thunderbird is not optimized for this, especially when the mails are on a remote server.
Which one do you use? I'm really curious if there's an alternative workflow that is just as good as GMail-view, or people just learn to accept the limitations.
I don't use threads, because people in my business are very active in sending the whole history in EACH mail, and others communications have a web-frontend.
But if you need threading so much, you could also just move your send mails with the rest of the mails, there is a setting with the server-confg, which defines what is to be done with send mails, which by default saves a copy in the Sent-folder. You could also check out filters and labels.
And looking at the roadmap of thunderbird, there is some plan about a global database, which reads as if this might allow a Gmail-style frontend somewhere in the future. So maybe next year threading might a more solved problem..
> because people in my business are very active in sending the whole history in EACH mail,
Unfortunately that quoted history is not easily navigable and doesn't include attachments.
> there is a setting with the server-confg, which defines what is to be done with send mail
I looked into it, but it unfortunately only applies to future messages sent. Typing this I just realized that I could maybe move my existing sent messages into the uber-folder, I'll give that a try.
Why are they repeating the 6 key themes twice but phrased in different ways and in different order? And then there are 6 recommendations and 5 improvements which are very similar to each other, but the article doesn't say how they are related.
I would suggest they first "demystify the language" and "streamline information architecture" of the article itself.
Also some details would be nice. And some acknowledgement of an understanding that the UI being "dated" and not "modern" probably isn't what's making it difficult to use.
If I were one of those 10 people I'd have told them that I love "dated" UIs. Most modern UIs are trash. I'd hate it if efforts to make Thunderbird shiny enough to attract users sacrificed functionality, ease of use, or customization.
TB has big UX problems not mentioned: Search works poorly (Misses too many results to be useful), messages you typed have weird paragraph spacings, and reading multi-message threads is a mess.
Search does miss a lot of stuff. I hope they never get rid of the option for storing messages in MBOX because I find I have to grep through my messages all the time.
I know it'll never happen, but it would be great to have a Thunderbird headless version that runs in the tray and handles sending and receiving.
I.e. a low memory solution so you can leave it going and only open the client for actual interactions. Thunderbird is pretty bloated to leave open all day and sending and receiving shouldn't need a web browser attached.
> I.e. a low memory solution so you can leave it going and only open the client for actual interactions. Thunderbird is pretty bloated to leave open all day and sending and receiving shouldn't need a web browser attached.
I agree with you. Having my mail client still use ~800MB of memory when in the tray is not great (and I have very few emails, so one cannot blame the index or whatever).
Unfortunately since Thunderbird's IMAP stack was recently (a few years ago) rewritten in javascript (from C++), it's now dependant on the web stack to receive and send emails. I doubt firefox/thunderbird is engineered in a way that you could unload only the html rendering part on demand.
You may be confusing IMAP+js with pop+js. Pop is running as js, but the IMAP rewrite was abandoned early. IMAP will likely be rewritten in Rust in a future year.
Tray implementations are actually on the horizon - recently taking shape with the help of community developers. For example Bug 2023000 - Implement Linux system tray: hide-to-tray
> A few weeks ago, we conducted hour-long conversations with 10 of our users to dig deep into how you manage your preferences and configurations in Thunderbird desktop
Is only 10 people representative of the population of thunderbird users?
Fwiw, even just going through your software with one user can give quite a few insights about what's not obvious about it. That's not at all to say you never need more, but very few open source projects do user research in the first place, being passion projects that just scratch the developer's/s' itch. More samples is always better, definitely at n=10, but I'd also not dismiss the results and benefits of doing it!
Also, how many people you need depends heavily on whether the thing you're researching affects a lot of people. If settings has a problem that affects 40% of people, then a sample of 10 people would yield results representative of the whole population.
Sample size is a very weird, often kinda counter-intuitive topic.
The video goes into slightly more depth, and at about 1:30 into the video they acknowledge that the participants were not representative and that they would like to conduct further research.
> Is only 10 people representative of the population of thunderbird users?
For very narrow studies it is possible to get representative data with fewer than a dozen interviews, but in this case it is explicitly not representative. In the video they mention that most of the participants have used Thunderbird for over a decade and follow release notes, development, and various forums closely, which to me suggests that they were recruited opportunistically rather than a random statistical sampling.
They do mention that they have plans to engage a larger audience in the future but that can be incredibly expensive. Even large organizations typically have to augment a small number of representative interviews with a large number of surveys and a very large set of user telemetry to properly weight interview feedback.
It's a standard research technique. You can have 2,000 people answer an automated survey but you can't have hour-long conversations with them. Researchers in many fields would like a better solution for in-depth interviews.
Missing step numero Zero: What is a menu bar, where should it be placed, and how do I use its menu items in a way that adheres to the basic design rules of all operating systems on which this software runs?
I want to use Thunderbird, but it's so... weird. And why can it not be minimized to tray? Am I supposed to sit and keep the Thunderbird window open at all times?
related - recently I learned Microsoft doesn't provide any way to download all your emails from outlook.com in one way to back them up, so Thunderbird was the tool I used to create backup
still can't comprehend how is this legal in EU, Google at least provide takeout
They look like stock Powerpoint slide templates to me, which if that is a common way for AI to show items, is likely because it was already a common visual technique and AI learned it that way.
Thunderbird is great and was my main email app for a decade – until I de-googled my life. I think settings were a horrible mess, but after that UX sending/receiving email were great.
please make the oauth flow catchy and easy to debug, like straight up suggesting that an unreachable imap server is because the port is blocked or catching the the custom domainis just outlook and updating the flow accordingly. Make it nice for enterprises, so users can push for enterprise use, too :)
> You customize extensively during your initial setup, followed only by minor tweaks to get your workspace just right.
If all of your users customize extensively the moment they get your hands on the software that means your defaults suck. As long as they keep letting people customize it's good enough though.
Kudos to the Thunderbird team for improving TB so much over the past few years, it really helped that they split from Mozilla. K9-Mail (which is now TB) also strongly benefitted from this. Maybe Mozilla will start listening to their users someday...
Thunderbird has actually come back to Mozilla around 2017: https://blog.thunderbird.net/2017/05/thunderbirds-future-hom...
And has been operating as a fully fledged subsidiary of the foundation since 2020: https://blog.thunderbird.net/2020/01/thunderbirds-new-home/
Thanks for the correction! Wasn't it under the Mozilla Corporation before? It's clear that there was a cultural shift at Thunderbird either way.
From user feedback, I wonder if they've learned how to prevent Thunderbird from creating an empty "thunderbird" folder in my home directory yet.
This is a known issue (tracked at https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2007074, as mentioned by a previous comment). A fix has landed in Thunderbird Daily a couple of weeks ago, and should be released in Thunderbird 154 which comes out next month.
Hmm strange, I have never had a thunderbird folder in my home dir. I use thunderbird on Mac, Windows and Linux (Ubuntu).
It's been an ongoing issue since the beginning of the year, at least on Linux. Since you're using Ubuntu (which is based on Debian), you may be using an older or an LTS version. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2007074
Is this is the snap version of tb? If so it has restricted file access.
Maybe try the .deb version? (maybe need to back up your data in ~/snap/thunderbird/
The flatpack version does it as well.
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If only there was a way to edit the source code, and recompile it yourself.
Oh well, no software is perfect.
This is a good encapsulation of why the year of the Linux desktop is perpetually fifteen years away.
The year of Linux desktop will come after the desktop is no longer relevant, but I'll be honest, I've been AI-pilled, and it's never been a better time to run a Linux desktop. Instead of going sleuthing every time I hit a papercut that previously I'd have spend hours consulting a how-to or a wiki to find the subsystems and config files to fix the problem, I can now just describe the problem to an AI agent that runs around on my system that just fixes it while I go off and do something else.
I'd love to see a screencast of this working if you're so inclined one day to make a walkthrough. If it's mostly walking away, that's even better because you could show the prompt and a before/after of it working. (Just a casual observation, and less of a request, not trying to assign work :)
I've seen so many people claim this is the future we're living in, but I've never seen it actually work as described. It's always more hand holding than I'm willing to put into an llm
I tried Thunderbird recently, and was baffled that there seemed to be no way to see received emails grouped with my responses to them (aka threading or conversations). Even grouping incoming emails that have the same subject seemed like an experimental feature.
Surely I'm missing something? How are people using it? If someone replies to you "I think there was a problem with your attachment", do you search for your sent email?
Thunderbird supports threading in the message list pane (which displays replies next to the email that was replied to), but a conversation mode for the message pane is still in development:
https://connect.mozilla.org/t5/ideas/true-threaded-conversat...
In the meantime, the Thunderbird Conversations add-on provides a conversation view that looks like classic Gmail, which is probably what you're looking for:
https://addons.thunderbird.net/en-US/thunderbird/addon/gmail...
I had seen both of these. The add-on implementation is too complicated and affects too many systems (contacts, attachments, etc) that change frequently, so it had many subtle bugs and unimplemented features: https://github.com/thunderbird-conversations/thunderbird-con...
As for the Message List Pane, maybe that's something I missed, I'll take another look.
It’s been there for a while https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/message-threading-thund...
I had tried this, but the grouping only happened among messages of each folder. And Sent is a separate folder, so it doesn't get included.
Or did I miss something? Do you see your replies in the threaded view?
Thunderbird has a folder-based organization, so out of the box can it only group mails per folder. What you want is a GMail-view/organization, where all mails are in one folder. But this will probably not work well with bigger amounts of mails, because Thunderbird is not optimized for this, especially when the mails are on a remote server.
Which one do you use? I'm really curious if there's an alternative workflow that is just as good as GMail-view, or people just learn to accept the limitations.
I don't use threads, because people in my business are very active in sending the whole history in EACH mail, and others communications have a web-frontend.
But if you need threading so much, you could also just move your send mails with the rest of the mails, there is a setting with the server-confg, which defines what is to be done with send mails, which by default saves a copy in the Sent-folder. You could also check out filters and labels.
And looking at the roadmap of thunderbird, there is some plan about a global database, which reads as if this might allow a Gmail-style frontend somewhere in the future. So maybe next year threading might a more solved problem..
> because people in my business are very active in sending the whole history in EACH mail,
Unfortunately that quoted history is not easily navigable and doesn't include attachments.
> there is a setting with the server-confg, which defines what is to be done with send mail
I looked into it, but it unfortunately only applies to future messages sent. Typing this I just realized that I could maybe move my existing sent messages into the uber-folder, I'll give that a try.
Create a virtual folder (saved search) that includes all messages from sent and inbox. Enable threading, and you will have conversations.
If they make importing an ICS file a one-click action in place of the full-blown, click-through import wizard, I'll be a happy camper.
Deep down, though, I really wish they rebuilt it on top of something less heavy than Firefox, eg. ZED's GPUI.
Why are they repeating the 6 key themes twice but phrased in different ways and in different order? And then there are 6 recommendations and 5 improvements which are very similar to each other, but the article doesn't say how they are related.
I would suggest they first "demystify the language" and "streamline information architecture" of the article itself.
Also some details would be nice. And some acknowledgement of an understanding that the UI being "dated" and not "modern" probably isn't what's making it difficult to use.
If I were one of those 10 people I'd have told them that I love "dated" UIs. Most modern UIs are trash. I'd hate it if efforts to make Thunderbird shiny enough to attract users sacrificed functionality, ease of use, or customization.
The post is vibe-slop, prompted by non-technical PM who viewed the task as a chore.
The tone with which it manages to objectify the users and distance the writer from them is a cherry on top.
TB has big UX problems not mentioned: Search works poorly (Misses too many results to be useful), messages you typed have weird paragraph spacings, and reading multi-message threads is a mess.
Search does miss a lot of stuff. I hope they never get rid of the option for storing messages in MBOX because I find I have to grep through my messages all the time.
Which UX problems? When I read
> Thunderbird’s robust functionality is its superpower, but a dated interface shouldn’t be a barrier to entry for newer users.
I started preparing for the worst.
Search doesn't work on mobile for me at all. On Desktop, I always have to fiddle with filters to find the message I want.
I know it'll never happen, but it would be great to have a Thunderbird headless version that runs in the tray and handles sending and receiving.
I.e. a low memory solution so you can leave it going and only open the client for actual interactions. Thunderbird is pretty bloated to leave open all day and sending and receiving shouldn't need a web browser attached.
> I.e. a low memory solution so you can leave it going and only open the client for actual interactions. Thunderbird is pretty bloated to leave open all day and sending and receiving shouldn't need a web browser attached.
I agree with you. Having my mail client still use ~800MB of memory when in the tray is not great (and I have very few emails, so one cannot blame the index or whatever).
Unfortunately since Thunderbird's IMAP stack was recently (a few years ago) rewritten in javascript (from C++), it's now dependant on the web stack to receive and send emails. I doubt firefox/thunderbird is engineered in a way that you could unload only the html rendering part on demand.
So I doubt we'll ever have our wish granted...
You may be confusing IMAP+js with pop+js. Pop is running as js, but the IMAP rewrite was abandoned early. IMAP will likely be rewritten in Rust in a future year.
Tray implementations are actually on the horizon - recently taking shape with the help of community developers. For example Bug 2023000 - Implement Linux system tray: hide-to-tray
> A few weeks ago, we conducted hour-long conversations with 10 of our users to dig deep into how you manage your preferences and configurations in Thunderbird desktop
Is only 10 people representative of the population of thunderbird users?
Fwiw, even just going through your software with one user can give quite a few insights about what's not obvious about it. That's not at all to say you never need more, but very few open source projects do user research in the first place, being passion projects that just scratch the developer's/s' itch. More samples is always better, definitely at n=10, but I'd also not dismiss the results and benefits of doing it!
Also, how many people you need depends heavily on whether the thing you're researching affects a lot of people. If settings has a problem that affects 40% of people, then a sample of 10 people would yield results representative of the whole population.
Sample size is a very weird, often kinda counter-intuitive topic.
If the crowd is diverse enough. Was it? The article doesn't reveal.
The video goes into slightly more depth, and at about 1:30 into the video they acknowledge that the participants were not representative and that they would like to conduct further research.
> Is only 10 people representative of the population of thunderbird users?
For very narrow studies it is possible to get representative data with fewer than a dozen interviews, but in this case it is explicitly not representative. In the video they mention that most of the participants have used Thunderbird for over a decade and follow release notes, development, and various forums closely, which to me suggests that they were recruited opportunistically rather than a random statistical sampling.
They do mention that they have plans to engage a larger audience in the future but that can be incredibly expensive. Even large organizations typically have to augment a small number of representative interviews with a large number of surveys and a very large set of user telemetry to properly weight interview feedback.
It's a standard research technique. You can have 2,000 people answer an automated survey but you can't have hour-long conversations with them. Researchers in many fields would like a better solution for in-depth interviews.
Thunderbird has as many as 10 users?!
(I jest!)
> Settings
Missing step numero Zero: What is a menu bar, where should it be placed, and how do I use its menu items in a way that adheres to the basic design rules of all operating systems on which this software runs?
I want to use Thunderbird, but it's so... weird. And why can it not be minimized to tray? Am I supposed to sit and keep the Thunderbird window open at all times?
It's funny you should say that, because the next release apparently directly addresses this. Including startup to tray. https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/close-tray-starting-154
Wow, finally! Thanks for sharing.
Why is that even something an app would support? The desktop should handle that.
related - recently I learned Microsoft doesn't provide any way to download all your emails from outlook.com in one way to back them up, so Thunderbird was the tool I used to create backup
still can't comprehend how is this legal in EU, Google at least provide takeout
I'd like the Oauth authentication setting to work in the latest version. But that might just be me.
I'd also like it to be possible to enter a U2F pin number when using Oauth because then I could actually use it with my company Yubikey.
U2F does not support PINs. You may be thinking of FIDO2, which does.
Sounds like a pitch for why the next version of Thunderbird will be "AI-enabled".
What's planned for upcoming versions of Thunderbird are in public roadmaps:
https://roadmaps.thunderbird.net/en-US/
Those two images in the post do look... "AI-enabled"
They look like stock Powerpoint slide templates to me, which if that is a common way for AI to show items, is likely because it was already a common visual technique and AI learned it that way.
Thunderbird has spun off from the usual Mozilla stuff. I would be shocked if they moved in this direction.
Just hoping the maildir and proper Gmail-like threading comes soon finally.
Thunderbird is great and was my main email app for a decade – until I de-googled my life. I think settings were a horrible mess, but after that UX sending/receiving email were great.
please make the oauth flow catchy and easy to debug, like straight up suggesting that an unreachable imap server is because the port is blocked or catching the the custom domainis just outlook and updating the flow accordingly. Make it nice for enterprises, so users can push for enterprise use, too :)
> You customize extensively during your initial setup, followed only by minor tweaks to get your workspace just right.
If all of your users customize extensively the moment they get your hands on the software that means your defaults suck. As long as they keep letting people customize it's good enough though.
Can we have the UI that was promised in all the mock ups a few years back please?
#1 suggestion: Get rid of Identities!
There is no reason for the client to insist on knowing every email alias that delivers to a mail store.
Whatever the To address of a received mail, use that for the From addr in any replies...
#2 Suggestion: Make calendar reminders not get lost on snooze...
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Sample of 10? Was this little clique also from one and the same corporate office?